[VS] 4th DataBook Hiruzen takes the gauntlet

[Draegod]

I don't really see how that addresses my point :l
I know Danzō still thought he was inferior, but in a vs thread Hiruzen has no hard counter for KA right off the bat.

Enma Releases the Genjutsu one could say. The jutsu isn't the end all be all, it is still genjutsu, just one that is hard to tel you are in (hence other source to help you out).

 

[V h o]

I guess FTG Hiruzen is a go then Lol

 

[BenjerminGaye]

What advanced Inuzuka techniques are there?

Fang wolf fang
Tail chasing fang

Doesn't Akamaru transform in to Kiba to do their fang technique or w/e it's called?

for standard techs. Fang passing fang is simply passing fang done with a dog. And by part 2 akamaru no longer transforms to do it.

Plus, if Hiruzen ever found a need to use one of their techniques(which I can't ever think of a situation where that need would arise), he can use a transformation jutsu on Enma or a clone.

it dosen't work like that. Bunta can transform into kurama but that dosen't mean he gets tbb.

But he already has the Inuzuka clan's greatest asset, which is their sense of smell, which is how he defeated Hashirama's bringer of darkness.

nothing puts that on inuzuka level, which is over 200x normal. Inuzuka's out smell ninken.

Fair point on Aburame. Forgot about them.

ok

And yeah, doujutsu is obviously out since he doesn't possess them.

So thats 5 clans out the running.

Akamichi(your own admission)
inuzuka(Explained above)
aburame(your own admission)
uchiha(your own admission)
hyuuga (your own admission)

What's that leave? Nara, Yamanaka, Sarutobi. That's all u got, therfore my point stands. He can't even do half since he lacks the requirements.

Hype debunked. Close thread.

 

[EliteKakashi]

So thats 5 clans out the running.

Akamichi(your own admission)
inuzuka(Explained above)
aburame(your own admission)
uchiha(your own admission)
hyuuga (your own admission)

What's that leave? Nara, Yamanaka, Sarutobi. That's all u got, therfore my point stands. He can't even do have since he lacks the requirements.

Hype debunked. Close thread.

Well, no, it doesn't really debunk the hype. Debunks the purpose of this thread, maybe. But the hype itself? No.

What the hype means(at least I feel it's pretty obvious it means) is that he's trained in and knows how to use every technique. Whether he can actually perform them whenever he wants to(IE if he wants to use an Aburame technique but the Aburame clan hasn't given him any bugs) is where the question comes in, and I think that's a pretty resounding no. He'd have to prep if he wanted to use them.

That said, even if you did remove clan techniques, he's still left with every elemental technique in Konoha(and has the on panel feats that prove he can use every element, all at once for that matter), Edo Tensei, FTG, 8 Gates and the like. Although Edo TEnsei is something someone of his personality would never use, he has a moral compass, unlike Tobirama.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Well, no, it doesn't really debunk the hype. Debunks the purpose of this thread, maybe. But the hype itself? No.

no the hype got debunked.

What the hype means(at least I feel it's pretty obvious it means) is that he's trained in and knows how to use every technique.

How can he train in techs if he dosen't even have the requirements to make training feasible?

Whether he can actually perform them whenever he wants to(IE if he wants to use an Aburame technique but the Aburame clan hasn't given him any bugs) is where the question comes in, and I think that's a pretty resounding no. He'd have to prep if he wanted to use them.

above.

That said, even if you did remove clan techniques, he's still left with every elemental technique in Konoha
(and has the on panel feats that prove he can use every element, all at once for that matter), Edo Tensei, FTG, 8 Gates and the like.
Although Edo TEnsei is something someone of his personality would never use, he has a moral compass, unlike Tobirama.

his mastery over edo tensai or ftg is at best tobirama lvl. 8 gates? Yeah ok.

Elemental techs is a very broad term. Again I'd only see the uchiha and Tobirama's elemental's Going into his repetwah.

 

[KidGamer65]

He stops at Minato or Tobirama, whoever comes first.

 

[EliteKakashi]

no the hype got debunked.

How can he train in techs if he dosen't even have the requirements to make training feasible?
above.

There's nothing about the Aburame, Inuzuka or Akimichi(or any other non-doujutsu clan in Konoha) that has special requirements that couldn't be met. The Aburame clan can give Hiruzen bugs and train him in the use. Inuzuka could give him a dog and train him in the use. Would have to gain weight to use the Akimichi techniques, but he could be taught them none the less.

This is also something that has been a part of Hiruzen's character since part 1, and has stayed true through each databook afterwards. The first and second databook noted that he was 5s across the board in every ninja ability that didn't falter with age. Orochimaru commented that he was known as the professor for being able to perform all Konoha-based techniques. This isn't anything new. It's what is supposed to make his character special in terms of power. He was referred to by some as a God among shinobi. There's reasons behind that.

his mastery over edo tensai or ftg is at best tobirama lvl. 8 gates? Yeah ok.

I have no idea what his mastery of ET or FTG would be. I doubt he ever bothered with ET given how his moral views are so it's probably at it's lowest level possible. Isn't much telling on FTG, but a few special jounin fodder were able to use the technique so someone noted to be maybe the greatest ninjutsu user ever, so Tobirama level is possible I assume, but again, isn't much telling.

Kakashi was able to open the first gate when he was entirely out of shape. Hiruzen in his prime being able to open a few of the gates is perfectly feasible.

But it's also important to note that his fighting style revolved around clones, Enma and ninjutsu. This was all noted in his fight with Orochimaru and his appearance in the war-arc. He didn't rely on FTG, doubt he ever bothered with it much. He didn't use ET. He probably couldn't have used gates in his old age, but I doubt he bothered too much with them in his prime either.

 

[maniaoqan]

He stops at 1.

Let me Databook solo you a quick.

Spoiler

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[TheAncientCenturion]

I'm just assuming this is a younger Hiruzen with Edo Tensei feats.

He stops at 4 or 5. He might be able to beat Muu, just with the enhanced senses he possesses and the large scale elemental attacks. But I don't see him getting past Tobirama, he lacks the reactions to consistently avoid his FTG attacks without harm.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

There's nothing about the Aburame, Inuzuka or Akimichi(or any other non-doujutsu clan in Konoha) that has special requirements that couldn't be met. The Aburame clan can give Hiruzen bugs and train him in the use.

The bugs are for life. For the last time they have to reside IN YOUR BODY for you to practice with them. Let alone use their techs.

Inuzuka could give him a dog and train him in the use

Again , life long connection. It's not "here's a dog now do fang wolf fang" he can't use their techs without training, and he can't train without the dog/ bugs. Does old Hiruzen have bugs in his butt? Nope so prime Hiruzen automatically dosen't have it.
Does old Hiruzen have a dog summon? Nope so prime Hiruzen can't use their advanced techs

Would have to gain weight to use the Akimichi techniques, but he could be taught them none the less.

if he gains weight for Akamichi he's automatically out of the running for 8 gates.

This is also something that has been a part of Hiruzen's character since part 1, and has stayed true through each databook afterwards. The first and second databook noted that he was 5s across the board in every ninja ability that didn't falter with age. Orochimaru commented that he was known as the professor for being able to perform all Konoha-based techniques. This isn't anything new. It's what is supposed to make his character special in terms of power. He was referred to by some as a God among shinobi. There's reasons behind that.

that's all hype to me. The above automatically discredits said hype. It's like still trying to claim the third raikage has the strongest shield despite it being penetrated.

I have no idea what his mastery of ET or FTG would be.

tobirama lvl, at best.

I doubt he ever bothered with ET given how his moral views are so it's probably at it's lowest level possible.

further dysproving the hype.

Isn't much telling on FTG, but a few special jounin fodder were able to use the technique so someone noted to be maybe the greatest ninjutsu user ever, so Tobirama level is possible I assume, but again, isn't much telling.

it took 3 Jounin that were trained specifically by minato to teleport 1 person. They weren't fodder.

Kakashi was able to open the first gate when he was entirely out of shape. Hiruzen in his prime being able to open a few of the gates is perfectly feasible.

1 gate. Kakashi flat out said entering the extreme lotus is remarkable as is and thats only 3 of the 8.Yet by Hiruzens hype he's supposed to have all 8 in the bag while being fat as fck for Akamichi.

But it's also important to note that his fighting style revolved around clones, Enma and ninjutsu. This was all noted in his fight with Orochimaru and his appearance in the war-arc. He didn't rely on FTG, doubt he ever bothered with it much. He didn't use ET. He probably couldn't have used gates in his old age, but I doubt he bothered too much with them in his prime either.

shadow clones isn't even leaf village specific. His elemental ninjutsu is impressive(give him that) but the clan specific techs is impossible to have and master all in his "prime" considering the conditions for those techs would extend past his prime.

 

[New Dawn]

This old joke needs to stay dead. No one gives a **** about this clown since his death in P1.

 

[I'm stupid real stupid]

He sure as hell won't beat Hashirama,Obito and Minato

 

[MickNerks]

No counter to Kotoamatsukami.

Enma could effectively release him from the technique, and hiruzen would also most likely create shadow clones to which could be a way to stop danzo from using the technique, as he could mistakenly hit a clone.

Get that fck boy hype outta here. How is he even doing half the secret ninja techs of the leaf without the proper requirements for it?
Lmfao.

Hiruzen has all the proper requirements for each clan techniques:

Aburame clan: Hiruzen can summon insect by using the

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, which eliminates the need for hiruzen to house insects in his own body. With this technique Hiruzen can just summon insects near by with his chakra. This allows hiruzen to utilize most Aburame Clan Techniques.

Akimichi clan: Hiruzen doesnt need extra weight to utilize the clans

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. If hiruzen did learn the clan techniques then he also knows the Akimichi clans:

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, which would allow hiruzen to utilize all there jutsu with precise chakra control, which will eliminate risk to Hiruzen's health/life.

Inuzuka Clan: Hiruzen has Enma which has the similar

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of the dogs of the Inuzuka clan. Hiruzen would simply have to do a

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into enma/hiruzen (which is academy level jutsu) and then proceed with using any of the Inuzuka clan abilities. There is nothing overly complicated about these techniques once you have a beast partner with you.

As you can see Hiruzen is fairly capable of utilizing any of these clans jutsu, especially after we just received the Databook translations that he was taught these clan techs by the clans themselves.

I'm just assuming this is a younger Hiruzen with Edo Tensei feats.

He stops at 4 or 5. He might be able to beat Muu, just with the enhanced senses he possesses and the large scale elemental attacks. But I don't see him getting past Tobirama, he lacks the reactions to consistently avoid his FTG attacks without harm.

I find it interesting that you dont think Hiruzen can defeat Tobirama, when it is stated that Hiruzen is aware of all his jutsu, as hiruzen has scrolls on all his jutsu and knows and learned all of tobirama's jutsu's himself. Its also implied that since hiruzen knows all jutsu that comes from konoha that

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himself.

With hiruzen knowing FTG himself and able to utilize a larger arsenal of jutsu than tobirama, how is it that he would lose to tobirama?

He sure as hell won't beat Hashirama,Obito and Minato

I only disagree with Obito and Minato. By the information given to us by the 4th databook, it would also mean that hiruzen is capable of using FTG, which gives him equal ground with shinobi like Minato and Obito.

 

[Selan]

This is a 45 year old Hiruzen with Jiraiya level chakra reserves.

Location: Gaara vs Kimimaro
Distance: 50 Meters
Restrictions: None
Condition: Hiruzen is healed after every battle
Intel: Manga


Opponents:
1. Orochimaru (Part 1)
2. Danzo
3. Kakazu
4. Muu
5. Tobirama
6. Minato
7. MS Kakashi (War Arc)
8. MS Obito (No Paths of Jinchuuriki)
9. Base Hashirama

He can beat Orochimaru, at cost of his life with Shiki Fuujin, so it's a draw.
He loses against Danzo.
He could win against Kakuzu, but I'm not sure.
He probably loses against Mu.
He definitely loses against Tobirama.
He definitely loses against Minato.
He is negged by Kakashi.
He is negged by Obito.
He is negged by Hashirama.

 

[MickNerks]

This is a 45 year old Hiruzen with Jiraiya level chakra reserves.

Location: Gaara vs Kimimaro
Distance: 50 Meters
Restrictions: None
Condition: Hiruzen is healed after every battle
Intel: Manga

Spoiler

Opponents:
1. Orochimaru (Part 1)
2. Danzo
3. Kakazu
4. Muu
5. Tobirama
6. Minato
7. MS Kakashi (War Arc)
8. MS Obito (No Paths of Jinchuuriki)
9. Base Hashirama

He can beat Orochimaru, at cost of his life with Shiki Fuujin, so it's a draw.
He loses against Danzo.
He could win against Kakuzu, but I'm not sure.
He probably loses against Mu.
He definitely loses against Tobirama.
He definitely loses against Minato.
He is negged by Kakashi.
He is negged by Obito.
He is negged by Hashirama.

I dont think you read the beginning description.

Hiruzen as stated by the 4th databook is given all the hidden clan techniques (except doujutsu techniques) and he also has all the genjutsu and ninjutsu that was created in the hidden leaf. This also means he know everyone in the leaf villages arsenal and most likely has a counter to it.

Orochmaru himself stated that if hiruzen was 10 years younger he would have won.
Danzo's only advantage is Kotoamterasu, which can be countered with enma or shadow clones
He knows tobirama's entire arsenal, and can also use most of it himself according to new databook..
ECT..

 

[Lariatoo]

He stalemates with Tobirama in his prime IMO.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Hiruzen has all the proper requirements for each clan techniques:

here we go.

Aburame clan: Hiruzen can summon insect by using the

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, which eliminates the need for hiruzen to house insects in his own body. With this technique Hiruzen can just summon insects near by with his chakra. This allows hiruzen to utilize most Aburame Clan Techniques.

anime only.

Akimichi clan: Hiruzen doesnt need extra weight to utilize the clans

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. If hiruzen did learn the clan techniques then he also knows the Akimichi clans:

You must be registered for see links

, which would allow hiruzen to utilize all there jutsu with precise chakra control, which will eliminate risk to Hiruzen's health/life.

can't manipulate calories you don't have.

Inuzuka Clan: Hiruzen has Enma which has the similar

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of the dogs of the Inuzuka clan. Hiruzen would simply have to do a

You must be registered for see links

into enma/hiruzen (which is academy level jutsu) and then proceed with using any of the Inuzuka clan abilities. There is nothing overly complicated about these techniques once you have a beast partner with you.

already explained why that wouldn't work for anything past fang over fang.

As you can see Hiruzen is fairly capable of utilizing any of these clans jutsu, especially after we just received the Databook translations that he was taught these clan techs by the clans themselves.

2/10. EliteKakashi kakashi put more effort into it.

 

[Mugen Onsa]

lord rikuzen solos, enma pole of death gg.

 

[MickNerks]

here we go.

anime only.

Didnt realize it was anime, but none the less it's very likely that he could have a scroll on his person that allows him to summon insects. Which wouldnt be far fetched as many ninja have scrolls on them to allow them to accomplish different task they couldnt do on their own. (E.x Jiraiya using a scroll for his Fire Sealing Technique)

can't manipulate calories you don't have.

What are you talking about??? Everyone has calories. You burn calories by simply by walking around. To say Hiruzen doesnt have calories is to imply that he doesnt have a metabolism, Which every living organism has.

To use jutsu such as Multi-sized jutsu the user simply has to converting their calories into chakra, which will simply allow them to use their yang chakra nature (physical energy) to freely manipulate their body size to any size they like. Once you master the calorie control technique you will be able to do it with ease.

In part 1 Choji had not yet mastered the calorie control technique which is why he had to utilize food pills to convert his calories for him. Hiruzen simply mastering calorie control technique is enough to utilize any of the expansion jutsu.

already explained why that wouldn't work for anything past fang over fang.

All you stated is that Hiruzen and enma couldnt do it because Naruto and Gaambunta transforming to the nine tails couldnt use the Tailed Beast bomb.

But you are comparing two completely different situations.

Tailed Beast Bomb is a ninjutsu that required

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at a High Level, so it obvious that Gamabunta and Naruto couldnt accomplish it.

Fang over Fang is nothing more than Taijutsu. It doesnt require a certain chakra nature to accomplish, you simply need to know the mechanics behind the technique. Much like Might Guy teaching Rock Lee

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. Since it is already implied that the Inuzuka clan taught hiruzen the technique, it is highly conceivable that he can simply make the transformation with enma and replicate the mechanics of the taijutsu which that Inuzuka taught him.

You cant argue that it is impossible to teach hiruzen the many different taijutsu techniques of the Inuzuka clan, becuase they are nothing but body movements, not chakra natures.

Beast Human Taijutsu Secret Art: Fang Passing Fang (獣人体術奥義・牙通牙, Jūjin Taijutsu Ōgi: Gatsūga, Literally meaning: Beast Human Body Technique Secret Art: Fang Passing Fang)

2/10. EliteKakashi kakashi put more effort into it.

He put more energy into explaining something that is simple to understand. If the 4th databook stated that hiruzen can use all the hidden clan techniques of konoha, then who are we to say he cant. He must have some way to utilize each technique.

We would not dare say that hashirama could not use shadow clone jutsu if the databook stated that he learned it from tobirama (though we never seen him use it), so why try to negate what kishimoto writes about Hiruzen, just because you might not like him.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Didnt realize it was anime, but none the less it's very likely that he could have a scroll on his person that allows him to summon insects. Which wouldnt be far fetched as many ninja have scrolls on them to allow them to accomplish different task they couldnt do on their own. (E.x Jiraiya using a scroll for his Fire Sealing Technique)

the highest level of speculation.

What are you talking about??? Everyone has calories. You burn calories by simply by walking around. To say Hiruzen doesnt have calories is to imply that he doesnt have a metabolism, Which every living organism has.

Naturally but you need a specific amount of calories to use their techs. Hence why skinny choji can't do shit. Why all ackimichi's are overweight. It would be pointless to gain extra weight if the techs can be done without it.

To use jutsu such as Multi-sized jutsu the user simply has to converting their calories into chakra, which will simply allow them to use their yang chakra nature (physical energy) to freely manipulate their body size to any size they like. Once you master the calorie control technique you will be able to do it with ease.

Explained above.

In part 1 Choji had not yet mastered the calorie control technique which is why he had to utilize food pills to convert his calories for him. Hiruzen simply mastering calorie control technique is enough to utilize any of the expansion jutsu.

Explained above.

All you stated is that Hiruzen and enma couldnt do it because Naruto and Gaambunta transforming to the nine tails couldnt use the Tailed Beast bomb.

But you are comparing two completely different situations.

Tailed Beast Bomb is a ninjutsu that required

You must be registered for see links

at a High Level, so it obvious that Gamabunta and Naruto couldnt accomplish it.

Fang over Fang is nothing more than Taijutsu. It doesnt require a certain chakra nature to accomplish, you simply need to know the mechanics behind the technique. Much like Might Guy teaching Rock Lee Leaf Hurricane. Since it is already implied that the Inuzuka clan taught hiruzen the technique, it is highly conceivable that he can simply make the transformation with enma and replicate the mechanics of the taijutsu which that Inuzuka taught him.

You cant argue that it is impossible to teach hiruzen the many different taijutsu techniques of the Inuzuka clan, becuase they are nothing but body movements, not chakra natures.

already accounted for. Hence why I said "Advanced techniques" to EliteKakashi. Lol you didnt bring anything new to the table.

Beast Human Taijutsu Secret Art: Fang Passing Fang (獣人体術奥義・牙通牙, Jūjin Taijutsu Ōgi: Gatsūga, Literally meaning: Beast Human Body Technique Secret Art: Fang Passing Fang)



He put more energy into explaining something that is simple to understand. If the 4th databook stated that hiruzen can use all the hidden clan techniques of konoha, then who are we to say he cant. He must have some way to utilize each technique.

Lol.

I don't even feel like addressing this. It's speculation at the highest power. The sheer fact that it's literally impossible for him to use sharingan and byakugan techs should already be proof enough that the hype you're clinging to is as faulty and illogical as the databook itself.