2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + more

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

If the Mizukage can wail on them, and make them attack each other, but they can't find him, then he's going to win. Duh. They have no way to break to genjutsu, or detect him, while the Mizukage's attacks are strong enough (even from long range, out of sight) to break through Gaara's "strongest defence".

As for the rest, it was covered, or irrelevant.

 

[Joki]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

If the Mizukage can wail on them, and make them attack each other, but they can't find him, then he's going to win. Duh. They have no way to break to genjutsu, or detect him, while the Mizukage's attacks are strong enough (even from long range, out of sight) to break through Gaara's "strongest defence".

Oh? But what happened to "running away to the nearest mountain so he can't be hurt"? If he's "wailing on them" then he's wide open for a hirudora to the face even if he's an invisible ghost to the massive team of top tiers.

As for the rest, it was covered, or irrelevant.

Completely false. If you're debating to convince me of something, you're doing a horrible job if you refuse to post what was apparently covered to sway me. Hell, if you actually did cover anything in my post and prove me wrong, that'd be great and I'd openly accept it, too bad you didn't actually post it to me because it doesn't exist lol.

Yeah bro, there was a panel of Tsunade effortlessly breaking the strongest genjutsu in the world and destroying all clam summonings within a 5000 kilometer radius instantly, it's one of her abilities, go read the manga and you'll see that it's there for proof, you can read the manga right, because it's obviously in there, prove that it's not in there bro, exactly I've won.

Anyway I'm still waiting for your reply in the other thread, and the reply to literally all of my other points that you ignored in this thread and that one. So much for being "covered" when nigh all of it is the contrary. I find it entertaining that I was "trolling" or "clearly not serious" yet you shrug off converting my posts into mere sentences as if it's something every casual debater who can't actually counter those points does instead of admitting defeat. Still nothing though, yeah I thought so.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

Oh? But what happened to "running away to the nearest mountain so he can't be hurt"? If he's "wailing on them" then he's wide open for a hirudora to the face even if he's an invisible ghost to the massive team of top tiers.

What's amazing to me is that you continue to claim I'm not responding to your points (I am), and yet you post stuff like the above, which has been explained repeatedly. One can only assume you're not even reading what I'm writing, given how frequently this has been explained. The Mizukage can hide far away and attack simultaneously, even without line of sight... we know this, because he has already done it. Hiding and attacking are not mutually exclusive to him. I referred to you to a long post on this repeatedly... I realise this would involve scrolling up, which is apparently a big effort for you, so let me post it again here:

It's a genjutsu all right, but there are different sorts of genjutsu. Not all of them have to be ones where your mind is trapped in an illusion. As far as we're told, Mizukage summons a clam which churns out mist across a large, battlefield sized area. The Mizukage can then use this mist to create a series of "mirages", where he alters the perceptions of his victims. This primarily consists of creating illusions of himself, which are not real, and hiding his location. Good things about his illusions:
- The area they cover is huge. Big enough to hide effortlessly from the better part of a division of shinobi who are searching for you (and who specialise in long range attacks, since it was the 4th Division), and with every division consisting of thousands of shinobi that's not a trivial thing. Half the 4th Division had split off by this point, but we're still talking about a number in the thousands. During the genjutsu we see troops in the distance on mountain like rock pillars who are unable to find him, and thus within the range of the genjutsu. When the genjutsu is broken, we see a the cloud of smoke in the distance, behind several rock pillars, so it doesn't even seem like he needs line of sight for the genjutsu to work. This makes it probably the 2nd most long range genjutsu we've seen, behind Itachi of course.
- It's apparently so confusing, thousands of shinobi looking for him can't find him, even with him giving them clues, and telling them about the genjutsu and how to end it.
- The Genjutsu does not require the victims to see or hear something for it to work. It just affects everyone in the (very large) area of effect.
- The Genjutsu cannot be seen through by sensor Shinobi
- The Genjutsu does not appear to require any significant effort, and can be kept up for a lengthy period of time
- The Mizukage is somehow able to kill large numbers of enemies trapped in the genjutsu, despite being nowhere near their position. It is unclear if they die because the genjutsu makes them believe he's attacked them, whether the Mizukage can somehow attack them remotely, or he makes the victims attack each other (when they think they're attacking him). It's probably at least partially long distance attacks, because the Mizukage was nowhere near Gaara and had no line of sight, yet was able to use his oily water to stop his sand (and after the genjutsu vanished, the damage caused by the water remained). However there is no sign of the Mizukage needing to attack his earlier foes in order to damage them.
- The Clam seems able to move position, as it plainly wasn't in the original place he used it, though it's not clear if he moves the clam somehow (using water?), or the clam just moves on its own.

The downside is that he can be physically located by sensor sand, and assumedly seen through by the sharingan, as the ability to see different chakra colours should enable them to see through the genjutsu (just like the sharingan seems to allow the user to get out of pretty much any genjutsu/see through any trick that others cannot).

 

[Joki]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

What's amazing to me is that you continue to claim I'm not responding to your points (I am), and yet you post stuff like the above, which has been explained repeatedly. One can only assume you're not even reading what I'm writing, given how frequently this has been explained. The Mizukage can hide far away and attack simultaneously, even without line of sight... we know this, because he has already done it. Hiding and attacking are not mutually exclusive to him. I referred to you to a long post on this repeatedly... I realise this would involve scrolling up, which is apparently a big effort for you, so let me post it again here:

Cool story bro, now re-read my other posts because I actually already countered the exact paragraphs in those posts. Seriously, believe it or not, the exact post I countered! Not that you would know as you completely skipped over it as stated previously, in the post that you didn't counter....that notified you to counter the posts before that. Not really making your arguments look any better refusing to post proof for your baseless claims then pretending like you did.

You should really go back and respond to my actual post and address my points if you want to get anywhere, since you apparently already did, it shouldn't be that hard to copy and paste. Oh wait...there's a reason you're desperately avoiding doing that, because you can't, because you didn't actually counter them and you are doing a thing called lying.

So yeah, I'm waiting for whenever you want to do that. Otherwise lol I don't know why you're responding if you don't even want to attempt to prove anything, that would be classified as spam. There's also that other thread and the huge amount of posts you ignored there, and this one with plenty more material that you ignored.

"you continue to claim I'm not responding to your points (I am)" Heh, baffling that you'd even post that at a time like this, no, you're not. I would like you to as we could actually potentially have a civil discussion, but sadly I don't see that happening judging from your constant responses.

---
Also, my post seemed to have magically converted to 1 sentence again! Weird how it does that, it's like you're completely oblivious of any points you don't want to respond to.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

You haven't replied. You just keep saying stuff like "cool story bro", but continue to assert that the Mizukage cannot run and attack at the same time, when he very clearly can (we've seen him do it).

 

[Joki]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

You haven't replied. You just keep saying stuff like "cool story bro", but continue to assert that the Mizukage cannot run and attack at the same time, when he very clearly can (we've seen him do it).

Meanwhile, you continue to assert that Mizukage can somehow kill all of these top tiers for no reason other than a few dead fodders and kunai/shuriken without posting a single scan. Also meanwhile, YOU haven't replied to the following(other than the occasional blatant cherry picked sentence here and there):

I don't think you know what trolling means. Conversely, you are clearly trolling when you say Itachi can ever hope to see through Mizukage's genjutsu or has the most powerful genjutsu in the manga. Obviously not a serious remark.

Because Madara has EMS. Madara>>>>>Foddertachi, also, sharingan can't actually see through clones and that's more proof you have no idea of the facts of the actual manga.

Coo bro, that will literally not help someone see through a constant genjutsu in any way. Like.......? Unfortunately, Madara actually has counters to it unlike Itachi, and just because he won't be defeated by said clam jutsu doesn't mean his sharingan can see through it. Because it can't. And if it could, it's because of EMS. Which Itachi doesn't have. You literally used "sensor=/=sharingan" as evidence so Mu's fight(which was 100% off paneled) is irrelevant. And yeah, the illusion being broken is kind of the point, too bad it can't be broken.

So he's going to run the distance behind a giant mountain? Ok, while the dozen shinobi sit on their asses doing nothing letting him do that, while he's 1 mountain over, he can't hurt any of them in any way at all so he auto loses.
Panel of Mizukage using his clam jutsu on someone else making them attack their teammates?

Yeah, because "running away and sitting behind a mountain where you can't do anything to touch the other team and sitting there doing nothing else" is a win condition. Try again

Maybe to you because you're an Itachi fan, unfortunately liking Itachi doesn't make it any less true than those delusions that he is useful in any way.

Your reading is wrong, it was pretty obviously said on panel he never did anything like that. The only showing was him as a mirage, don't bullshit me boy. And yes obviously he can attack in mirage form, but that would be pretty stupid since apparently your strategy is for him to run 200 miles away so he can't actually fight back or win in any way whatsoever.

Also /late reply, I wasn't here but now that I am, I replied in that other hokage thread too.

Are you insinuating because the popular opinion says something it makes it true? I would like to direct you to how fallacious that is then. Regardless, being "in line with everyone elses opinion" has literally nothing to do with trolling so look up what it actually means if you want to have any standing in that argument at all.

Uhhh wut? You were using Madara seeing clones as evidence supporting sharingan? The only reason I brought up EMS in the first place was because sharingan was specifically said to not be able to tell the difference on multiple occasions. If Madara can, it's because he has EMS, period, and even then the only real reason I can see him seeing through clones is because they're at half chakra. Just because you know it's a clone doesn't mean you can tell the real one, which Itachi could never hope to do.

Interesting, so this gives Mizukage exactly what method to pick off the other team while he runs away completely?

We know? I like how you tell me to "read the thread" yet post nowhere that this was discussed. Yeah because Mizukage is going to be sitting behind a mountain using a mysterious jutsu to kill every ninja on this list effortlessly for no reason at all. But if he could do that it's only further proof Itachi is fodder in his eyes so I'm cool with that fanfiction.

Also, you clearly have a problem with using dirty tactics rather than debating fairly such as completely ignoring the main points in my post which you obviously can't counter(or you would have addressed them). You should re-read my post and actually counter it next time, I'll wait while you do that, and reply to the other thread too while you're at it which I notice you didn't actually mention again.

So good luck with that. Oh, and in the last 4 posts, if anyone who isn't completely blind hasn't noticed, there are quite a few paragraphs missing. I'm waiting for any scan or support at all. But nope it ain't coming. Especially since despite the paragraphs your response turned into a little over 1 sentence. I don't think that's how debating works.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

There's nothing in those posts that refutes what I said. The closest it gets is this:

So he's going to run the distance behind a giant mountain? Ok, while the dozen shinobi sit on their asses doing nothing letting him do that, while he's 1 mountain over, he can't hurt any of them in any way at all so he auto loses.

Which was refuted on the first page, because as the opening post sets out, the fight starts from 100 feet, and we are to assume he has time to activate the genjutsu. Since there is no advanced knowledge on either side (again, see OP, plus many posts after that which remind people like you of this), they won't even know they are under a genjutsu... so this "they'll stop him from hiding" stuff is just irrelevant (as well as tired, since it's been responded to repeatedly).

Nor do I understand how he "can't hurt them", given a) We see him able to bypass Gaara's "ultimate defence", b) he kills dozens and dozens of shinobi no problems, and c) he has jouki boy. As was also pointed out to people, in this thread and another, the Mizukage manipulates water, and since pretty much everyone here needs to breathe, even the mighty 3rd Raikage is going to be in trouble when he's getting drowned.

Other than that remark (which as I note, has been answered already), you just continue to repeat the same thing, that Mizukage can't run and attack at the same time... he clearly can, as was explained in the post above, the one you didn't reply to, no matter how many times you claim you did. The rest is about the Sharingan, which is worthy of some academic debate, but has nothing whatsoever to do with whether these guys can beat the Mizukage... since none of them have the Sharingan.

 

[Joki]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

There's nothing in those posts that refutes what I said. The closest it gets is this:

Which was refuted on the first page, because as the opening post sets out, the fight starts from 100 feet, and we are to assume he has time to activate the genjutsu. Since there is no advanced knowledge on either side (again, see OP, plus many posts after that which remind people like you of this), they won't even know they are under a genjutsu... so this "they'll stop him from hiding" stuff is just irrelevant (as well as tired, since it's been responded to repeatedly).

Nor do I understand how he "can't hurt them", given a) We see him able to bypass Gaara's "ultimate defence", b) he kills dozens and dozens of shinobi no problems, and c) he has jouki boy. As was also pointed out to people, in this thread and another, the Mizukage manipulates water, and since pretty much everyone here needs to breathe, even the mighty 3rd Raikage is going to be in trouble when he's getting drowned.

Other than that remark (which as I note, has been answered already), you just continue to repeat the same thing, that Mizukage can't run and attack at the same time... he clearly can, as was explained in the post above, the one you didn't reply to, no matter how many times you claim you did. The rest is about the Sharingan, which is worthy of some academic debate, but has nothing whatsoever to do with whether these guys can beat the Mizukage... since none of them have the Sharingan.

Wow you responded to 1 paragraph out of dozens? Well I've proved my point here, if you ever want to reply to my actual posts VM me that you decided to man up and respond to them otherwise, I'm glad other people can actually read these to decide who's clearly right here since you don't acknowledge it.

On topic: Mizukage can't actually hurt anyone here while he uses his mirage, apparently they all magically die, still after multiple posts haven't seen a single scan supporting the other side in the slightest.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

Wow you responded to 1 paragraph out of dozens

You seem to get lost in the details, so one claim at a time seems more productive. Your new reply still does not explain your contention that the Mizukage cannot escape in the genjutsu, nor the claim that he cannot attack while hidden far away (which he has shown us he can do). I mean, I can quote you a page number if you like, but the details are all referred to in the posts above, and anyone vaguely familiar with the manga can easily check them and confirm what I've written. Which part of the Mizukage being able to attack whilst hidden requires a scan?

 

[Joki]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

You seem to get lost in the details, so one claim at a time seems more productive. Your new reply still does not explain your contention that the Mizukage cannot escape in the genjutsu, nor the claim that he cannot attack while hidden far away (which he has shown us he can do). I mean, I can quote you a page number if you like, but the details are all referred to in the posts above, and anyone vaguely familiar with the manga can easily check them and confirm what I've written. Which part of the Mizukage being able to attack whilst hidden requires a scan?

 Mizukage can't actually hurt anyone here while he uses his mirage, apparently they all magically die, still after multiple posts haven't seen a single scan supporting the other side in the slightest.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

Dude, try every scan involving Gaara. I can't believe I'm going to bother, but let me cite you some of the many examples.
Here's Gaara, on the ropes v.s the Mizukage

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Here is Gaara when the Genjutsu is broken. Notice the Mizukage is still in front of him, but the dust from the clam being destroyed is a long, long way away, behind some Rock Pillars:

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Which is why Gaara takes his time arriving. This also fits with what we've seen already, in that:
a) He can't be found by thousands of troops with long range skills (this is the long range division, or half of it), and
b) He has somehow been killing lots of them, despite their total inability to find him (even with his help)

If the Mizukage isn't killing them, I can't imagine how you think they're dying. Whether it's a product of long range attacks, or attacks via genjutsu, he clearly can do it... and at a sufficient level that Gaara's "ultimate defence" can't keep up.

 

[Joki]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

Dude, try every scan involving Gaara. I can't believe I'm going to bother, but let me cite you some of the many examples.
Here's Gaara, on the ropes v.s the Mizukage

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Here is Gaara when the Genjutsu is broken. Notice the Mizukage is still in front of him, but the dust from the clam being destroyed is a long, long way away, behind some Rock Pillars:

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Which is why Gaara takes his time arriving. This also fits with what we've seen already, in that:
a) He can't be found by thousands of troops with long range skills (this is the long range division, or half of it), and
b) He has somehow been killing lots of them, despite their total inability to find him (even with his help)

If the Mizukage isn't killing them, I can't imagine how you think they're dying. Whether it's a product of long range attacks, or attacks via genjutsu, he clearly can do it... and at a sufficient level that Gaara's "ultimate defence" can't keep up.

Ok, I read everything. Dead fodder somehow equates to "clearly a secret jutsu that we haven't seen 1 panel of actually killing someone capable of wiping out these dozen top tiers because Mizukage can't actually hurt them otherwise"?

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

You obviously didn't understand it if you read it. You can see the physical damage to Gaara's defences, then when the illusion is dispelled, Mizukage is nowhere near Gaara. So obviously he can attack from a long, long way off (no line of sight in fact), because he already did it to Gaara... see, when the illusion ends... and the smoke from the clam is behind some mountains, which are nowhere near them!!! Jesus you're slow.

 

[robihurstferenc]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

Your ideas are plausible, and i respect your opinion, but i'm going to have to disagree. I think that Kakuzu, Hanzo and the 3rd and 4th Raikage could scrap out a close win. He uses the Hozuki clan Hydrification technique, and we have seen that Hozuki clan members are extremely weak to Raiton (something that the two Raikage specialize at, and Kakuzu can use False Darkness). As for the genjutsu, I think that Hanzo could simply spam his poison gas, and that would take out the whole mid-range area.

 

[Joki]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

You obviously didn't understand it if you read it. You can see the physical damage to Gaara's defences, then when the illusion is dispelled, Mizukage is nowhere near Gaara. So obviously he can attack from a long, long way off (no line of sight in fact), because he already did it to Gaara... see, when the illusion ends... and the smoke from the clam is behind some mountains, which are nowhere near them!!! Jesus you're slow.

uh huh there's always something. and how exactly does he do this "mysterious damage"? and how exactly is it able to kill off top tiers, why should I be inclined to believe that based on a few scans of dead fodder? interesting, interesting.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

You literally did not read anything I wrote. You keep referring to "fodders", when I just posted scans showing he has frickin Gaara, famed for his ultimate defence, on the ropes. You are just being ridiculous now.

As to the poster who actually read the thread:

Your ideas are plausible, and i respect your opinion, but i'm going to have to disagree. I think that Kakuzu, Hanzo and the 3rd and 4th Raikage could scrap out a close win. He uses the Hozuki clan Hydrification technique, and we have seen that Hozuki clan members are extremely weak to Raiton (something that the two Raikage specialize at, and Kakuzu can use False Darkness). As for the genjutsu, I think that Hanzo could simply spam his poison gas, and that would take out the whole mid-range area.

1) Water is not weak to electricity. Even if people with water bodies are "vulnerable" to it, it's not the same as being weak.
2) They have to hit him to take advantage of that, and these guys have no idea where he is
3) You underestimate the area of the genjutsu... go back and read the large post I made on this on page 2, and look at the scans in the chapter... we're talking about an enormous area... Hanzo's Salamander can only fire gas every 5 minutes, the range of which looks nothing like as big as the genjutsu area.. 5 minutes during which they'll be under constant assault. Not to mention a) he'll kill his team mates if he just randomly fires off gas (especially in the middle of a genjutsu, where the Mizukage can alter their perception of things... "look, it's the Mizukage, attack Salamander... oh, wait, that was my team I just blasted with gas"), and b) I'm not convinced someone made of water needs to breathe much (or can at least hold their breathe for quite a length of time).

Remember, the fight starts with the genjutsu being activates, so they can hardly just attack him freely.

 

[Joki]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

You literally did not read anything I wrote. You keep referring to "fodders", when I just posted scans showing he has frickin Gaara, famed for his ultimate defence, on the ropes. You are just being ridiculous now.

As to the poster who actually read the thread:

1) Water is not weak to electricity. Even if people with water bodies are "vulnerable" to it, it's not the same as being weak.
2) They have to hit him to take advantage of that, and these guys have no idea where he is
3) You underestimate the area of the genjutsu... go back and read the large post I made on this on page 2, and look at the scans in the chapter... we're talking about an enormous area... Hanzo's Salamander can only fire gas every 5 minutes, the range of which looks nothing like as big as the genjutsu area.. 5 minutes during which they'll be under constant assault. Not to mention a) he'll kill his team mates if he just randomly fires off gas (especially in the middle of a genjutsu, where the Mizukage can alter their perception of things... "look, it's the Mizukage, attack Salamander... oh, wait, that was my team I just blasted with gas"), and b) I'm not convinced someone made of water needs to breathe much (or can at least hold their breathe for quite a length of time).

Remember, the fight starts with the genjutsu being activates, so they can hardly just attack him freely.

Sorry, let me rephrase that last post since it matters so much:

"and how exactly does he do this "mysterious damage"? and how exactly is it able to kill off top tiers, why should I be inclined to believe that based on a few scans of dead fodder and some damage to Gaara's sand?"

Any scans of it doing actual damage on panel that isn't a complete mystery? Your magical unknown jutsu that you can't post a single scan for is as non existent as those Hiruzen "feats" in that other thread that you still are blatantly ignoring.

 

[robihurstferenc]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

Fair points, you, sir, have changed my mind

You literally did not read anything I wrote. You keep referring to "fodders", when I just posted scans showing he has frickin Gaara, famed for his ultimate defence, on the ropes. You are just being ridiculous now.

As to the poster who actually read the thread:

1) Water is not weak to electricity. Even if people with water bodies are "vulnerable" to it, it's not the same as being weak.
2) They have to hit him to take advantage of that, and these guys have no idea where he is
3) You underestimate the area of the genjutsu... go back and read the large post I made on this on page 2, and look at the scans in the chapter... we're talking about an enormous area... Hanzo's Salamander can only fire gas every 5 minutes, the range of which looks nothing like as big as the genjutsu area.. 5 minutes during which they'll be under constant assault. Not to mention a) he'll kill his team mates if he just randomly fires off gas (especially in the middle of a genjutsu, where the Mizukage can alter their perception of things... "look, it's the Mizukage, attack Salamander... oh, wait, that was my team I just blasted with gas"), and b) I'm not convinced someone made of water needs to breathe much (or can at least hold their breathe for quite a length of time).

Remember, the fight starts with the genjutsu being activates, so they can hardly just attack him freely.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

It's circumstantial evidence. Alot of people who aren't smart get confused and think circumstantial evidence isn't evidence... and they're wrong. For instance, if I got outside and see snow all over the city, I may not have actually seen it snow, but I can feel very confident it snowed. That is only circumstantial evidence, but it's none the worse for that. We have only circumstantial evidence for the awesomeness of Hashirama... but it's very good evidence, so we can feel confident he was indeed at the top of the Shinobi tiers with a handful of others like Madara.

The circumstances of the Mizukage's fight make it very clear he can attack people during the genjutsu, even while a long distance away... we know he can, because we can see scans showing he did it. How he did it doesn't even matter to be honest, only that he can do it, and do it with enough force that Gaara's ultimate defence is crumbling against the force of his attacks. Your rebuttal to this evidence of "I didn't see it on panel" is a weak response. We don't see alot of stuff on panel... we never saw the Sage do anything on panel... but that doesn't mean there isn't evidence of what he can do.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: 2nd Mizukage v.s 3rd and 4th Raikage, Gold & Silver Bros, Hanzo, Tsunade, Guy + m

It's not even like you have an alternative theory of how the Mizukage managed to kill those guys, and beat on Gaara... you just want to close your eyes and ignore it. A laughable rebuttal.