are you actually fuked in the head? tobirama has said to have been the best water user in history and that includes kisame:flaw:ok so IWR does not count in this battle.
yes we have never seen tobirams sapce time tech and its never been hyped at all as beeing that good. so it ha no feats
kisame has better suiton feats than tobirama thats a fact.
lol.
now honestly tobirama suporters tell with all his abilities shown in the manga
how does he avoid amerterasu.
1.Please note that tobirama will have to be looking at itachis feet to avoid tsukuyomi
2.which means tobiramas reactions are restricted.
3.that bringer of darkness technique is not his tech.
4. that amerterasu takes no prep time or hanseals to use.
do not spectulate about his abilities that actually against the vs section rules.
oh yes and try to refrain from calling people fanboys due to your lack of arguments.
its quite easy for him to doge actually in the manga when itachi was about to use amaterasu nagatao says this pressure its ameterasu so it obviously gives of some sort of pressure that indicates that its about to be used.
seeing as he fought with madara and izuna plus countless other uchiha im sure he would be familiar with this
lol.
now honestly tobirama suporters tell with all his abilities shown in the manga
how does he avoid amerterasu.
1.Please note that tobirama will have to be looking at itachis feet to avoid tsukuyomi
2.which means tobiramas reactions are restricted.
3.that bringer of darkness technique is not his tech.
4. that amerterasu takes no prep time or hanseals to use.
do not spectulate about his abilities that actually against the vs section rules.
oh yes and try to refrain from calling people fanboys due to your lack of arguments.
its quite easy for him to doge actually in the manga when itachi was about to use amaterasu nagatao says this pressure its ameterasu so it obviously gives of some sort of pressure that indicates that its about to be used.
seeing as he fought with madara and izuna plus countless other uchiha im sure he would be familiar with this
manga pages please or you have an invalid opinion.
whats the to accept is it that there absolutley zero evidence that incates TObirama > itachi or visa versa.tobirama
i will say again,itachi fans wont accept it
im gonna have to agree wit dis dude. itachi was the prodigy of his clan an we never seen him seriously try to kill some1. no1 here really knows a whole lot that the 2nd can even do. but wit itachis susanoo hes already been said to b invincible, an his sheilds inpenitrible so all the 2nd can really do is run an try to stay alive until itachi cant use susanoo anymore, an none of u no how the 2nd would deal with itachi's genjustsu espeacially since hes the best at it besides that 1 dude i forgot his name.Suaske has a sharingun an the only reason he lived i think is because itachi didnt want to kill him.itachi is not my favorite character so im not a fanboy but if yall gonna say the 2nd would win hands down atleast come up wit y cause i personally dont think any1's hands down beatin itachi.ill say it again now i may be tripple posting.
but not a single one of the supporters of tobirama have come up with an argument they can backup with manga pages.
all they have done is call the oposition 'itachi fanboys' simply becasue it disagrees with their opinion
With that logic I could ask as an example where are the manga pages that shows SO6P creating the moon? Sure it has been mentioned but no pic no proof is what youre saying?manga pages please or you have an invalid opinion.
Its been stated that the Senju's and Uchihas fought countless times with each other. So both of these clans would know each others strengths and weaknesses, hence why they were seen as equal. So with that knowledge in mind Tobirama would have some knowledge of MS or maybe even EMS techniques.
u made some good points, but u keep bringin up his fight with suaske which isnt a good reference of itachi's abilties seeing how itachi wasnt actually trying to kill him which is FACT. for example, itachi most likely knew that suaske used that snake skin shit so he hit him with the black flames cause if he didnt then then he wouldnt of let the flames touch him cause that would of killed suaske which we no he didnt want to do.plus yea suaske got out the genjustu but since itachi wasnt trying to kill him itachi probably wasnt really trying an the 2nd hokage wouldnt have as good as a chance seeing how he doenst have a sharingun like suaske.lets analyse there feats in categories. ill just show you how different they are
Taijutsu
Tobirama- was able to fist fight with hiruzen in his old age with his brother. as well as some weapon throwing nice one.
Itachi- was able to dispatch 3 elite uchiha from the police force in seconds. was able to taijutsu blitzed kurenai spar on par with KM naruto while evading bee. beat the crap out of sasuke on multiple occasions. was sucessfully able to evade bee using his 7 swords dance
was able to throw shuriken so fast that he could actually wave handseals for a shadow clone while doing so. was shown in flashback profiecent with using a sword. also using shuriken managed to strike find all blind spots of the rinegans statue and the cameleon.
Genjutsu
Tobirama no feats here.
Itachi with genjutsu he was able to reverse the affects of almost any genjutsu with demonic illusion heaven earth mirror change with this he can copy genjutsu by analyse them and than reverse them back on his oponent he was able to use his genjutsu to paralyse his openents and make it almost impossible for them to break out.
he could also do this by pointing a finger at his target wich requires litterally no prep time or formation of handseals.. he could confuse his openents by making them think they attacked a dummy that will deisperse into crows both shikaku and ao stated he was the only person who could control multiple targets from a long distance using genjutsu, mwhile some of his genjutsu is used as a distraction and to confuse or paralyse.
his best genjutsu tsukuyomi had the ability to torture in a world where itachi controls space and time.
ninjustsu
Tobirama has hailed as the best water user ever he could creat water our of nothing. he invented edo tensie a technique that itachi broke out off.
and could use a space time justu that know one knows jack shit about how it works. and it most likely isn't very considering that he died against ninjas know one knows anything about. and considering oro never used this tech while fighting hiruzen.
also somethings to consider
-tobirama created IWR ironically fell victim to this technique.
-itachi was the only person to escape this technique
-tobirama was manipulated by orochimaru
-itachi defeated orochimaru on two seperate ocassions. both in under a minute.
-tobirama in order to shut the evil uchiha up created the uchiha police force
-itachi gave the final shut up to the uchiha clan by killing them all off
-tobirama died in a war even with all his exp
-Itachi prevented a war at the age of 13
Let us Analyze this again. I see too many Errors.
First Correct No feats in Genjutsu, Shown in the Manga.
Ninjutsu you are right, Itachi is very capable with Fire element, and has a secondary Element with water. In the ninjutsu part, he did not show much capability (excluding his mangekyou sharingan techniques which i will get back to. ) in this field. Even his fire element was inferior to Sasuke's, as they fought.
His Amaterasu technique which is infact the strongest of fire elemental techniques which is truelly powerful. At life (Pre-Edo Tensei) It is shown a limit to how much his eyes can use this technique, aswell as he had problems focusing the amaterasu. As he did have problems catching Sasuke with it. Assuming Tobirama had decent mastery over space and time techniques, he could manuver away from this technique. Assuming he was incompetent with his time and space techniques. He would still have a good chance on manuver away from it as his physical capability is clearly better then Sasuke at his prime. Allso Amaterasu is shown to be rather slow in burning its object, which with a powerful enough water technique could help him slow it down. Of course Amaterasu does ignite whatever Itachi lays his sight on. But Tobirama could summon a large quantity of water which would slow it down even more and thus quickly, with a low cost of chakra due to his mastery of this element. Of course i do not assume Tobirama would be able to manuver away from the amaterasu with ease, atleast not with a incompetent time and space.
Allso Consider:
"- tobirama created IWR ironically fell victim to this technique.
-itachi was the only person to escape this technique "
As Tobirama was dead, he could not prevent such, which Itachi could not have either.
Itachi did not escape the technique by himself but with the help of Shisui's Mangekyou. Which was planned to be used against Sasuke not himself. His plan failed at that point but did turn out for the good. This fact is trivial which when dead they cannot prevent anything from that point.
"-tobirama was manipulated by orochimaru
-itachi defeated orochimaru on two seperate ocassions. both in under a minute."
Tobirama did not fight Orochimaru. Manipulated after death does not have any count here because he could not do anything to prevent this.
Im quite sure most people would agree Tobirama would beat Orochimaru with ease in his prime while he were alive. Which is allso trivial to this matter.
"-tobirama in order to shut the evil uchiha up created the uchiha police force
-itachi gave the final shut up to the uchiha clan by killing them all off"
Tobirama did not make the Konoha Police Force to "Shut the evil uchiha up" He made it as a sign of trust towards their erlier rival clan.
"-tobirama died in a war even with all his exp
-Itachi prevented a war at the age of 13"
Tobirama died in the second shinobi world war, as they were surrounded by 20 hunter nin, with Kinkaku & Ginkaku, and he distracted them so his team could escape. Which gave him a honorable death.
Itachi preventing a war at the age of 13 is allso trivial (Word keeps coming up for a reason)
"Taijutsu
Tobirama- was able to fist fight with hiruzen in his old age with his brother. as well as some weapon throwing nice one.
Itachi- was able to dispatch 3 elite uchiha from the police force in seconds. was able to taijutsu blitzed kurenai spar on par with KM naruto while evading bee. beat the crap out of sasuke on multiple occasions. was sucessfully able to evade bee using his 7 swords dance
was able to throw shuriken so fast that he could actually wave handseals for a shadow clone while doing so. was shown in flashback profiecent with using a sword. also using shuriken managed to strike find all blind spots of the rinegans statue and the cameleon."
Tobirama had great physical strenght and sensory ability. Which he exceeded in. Under Orochimaru's inperfected edo tensei, he was allso weaker then at his prime. Not as Kabuto's perfected edo tensei which adds to their strenght even more then at their prime.
Tobirama In the anime, it was said that he wielded the Sword of the Thunder God, a blade with electrical abilities, and was said to have mastered its use despite the lethality. It is not shown in the manga.
Itachi was best known for his amazing capability in genjutsu. Which is true, its something he exceeded in. But Tsukuyomi his strongest genjutsu is not unbreakable, which Sasuke did show. And for the information as a genjutsu does work on the chakra network on the individuals body, with great chakra controll genjutsu can be broken. Im not suggesting Tobirama would escape the Tsukuyomi but all Mangekyou sharingan ability takes it toll on the user. Which means surely Itachi could not use too them too many times.
Im myself a big itachi fan as he is my favorite character but i highly doubt he would beat Tobirama.
itachi's been said to b a master at taijutsu ninjustu an genjustsu aswellmy thought to he things every thing he say basically goes to itach even in taijutsu when the senju are master of ninjutsu and taijutsu
True enough. I rep+ for good perception, and formal arguement.u made some good points, but u keep bringin up his fight with suaske which isnt a good reference of itachi's abilties seeing how itachi wasnt actually trying to kill him which is FACT. for example, itachi most likely knew that suaske used that snake skin shit so he hit him with the black flames cause if he didnt then then he wouldnt of let the flames touch him cause that would of killed suaske which we no he didnt want to do.plus yea suaske got out the genjustu but since itachi wasnt trying to kill him itachi probably wasnt really trying an the 2nd hokage wouldnt have as good as a chance seeing how he doenst have a sharingun like suaske.
On the other hand, i do know Itachi weren't trying to kill Sasuke. But even at this point Sasuke himself were very powerful, tho not as powerful as people in the forum makes him seem. It was stated that Itachi had to push himself to push Sasuke to his own limits for then to seal Orochimaru whom residet within him as he removed his curse seal. Itachi were deff not on his prime, but reference to him after Edo tensei would be him at his prime plus extra strenght. Which would still make reference to him at that point as a boost. He did show extraordinary skill at even young age and is truelly capable. But my post refereing to Nidaime's strenghts are quite direct because people keep refering to his, and his brother edo tensei fight with Sandaime which was a inperfect edo tensei that diluted his prime to a weaker state. And Sharingan itself is a good counter against genjutsu on themself, because they can notice if their own chakra system is abnormal. Which any character that has amazing controll over their own chakra system could prevent and release. For instance medical-nin. Im actually quite confident in that Tsunade would be able to escape Tsukuyomi. Tho as strong as Tsukuyomi is, its still VERY difficult. As Tobirama could summon the most advanced and difficult suiton techniques with only one handseal, and due to handseal being simply a way to concentrate their chakra. It would be a high probability that he had alot better controll over his chakra systems then most excellent shinobi. Which would make it much easier to detect and release from genjutsu. Of course as ive mentioned before Tsukuyomi is such a strong genjutsu that it would not be with ease. Just stating the fact that it is possible, for any of the other posters that have been wondering about ways he could counter tsukuyomi and is asking for response. Sharingan is not the only way to counter genjutsu, any disturbance in the chakra pathway would immidiatly release the genjutsu, even the most advanced such as Tsukuyomi. Examples: Bijuu chakra, Sharingan, or just causing a disturbance in their chakra network.
Don't talk nonsense Mister. Itachi by himself said, you need to have the Sharingan to break through the powerful Tsukuyomi - without the Sharingan you can't handle it. Means, that the Sharingan helps you to get out of it. And as I said already, noticing a Genjutsu does not mean that you can break through it. Naruto noticed Itachis Genjutsu but wasn't able to break through it, Orochimaru noticed it too but wasn't able to get out of it. Same time Sasuke didn't only noticed Itachis Genjutsu, he ended it always. Same time Itachi threw Kurenais Genjutsu back to herself. The ability is see through, not see it. A lot of people can see or notice an illusion, but the Sharingan sees through. Tsukuyomi is the best example, where you need to have the Sharingan. And the bringer of darkness is an illusion too. It manipulates your senses so that you can't perceive light. It's just an illusion, an illusion the Sharingan sees through.
why are you repeating what i just said?
SHARINGAN does not get you out of genjutsu.........
you need to get that in your head sir....
it helps you see through genjutsu's and make breaking it easier.. but even then it depends on the skill of the user....
one of the sharingans abilities DOES not include breaking genjutsu.. it can't.....sasuke got caught in itachi's genjutsu easily, and saaw through it, in which itachi commented that he trained his eye well to see through it...
As for the person above, i clearly well know that tobirama doesn't have bringer of darkness, i was just commenting on what the jtusu does and sharingan...
Itachi did not master taijutsu, nor ninjutsu. He did master genjutsu. Allso the Senju's did not master taijutsu and ninjutsu. They were simply more physical capable, and their will helped them exceed in different areas of techniques. The Uchiha's were not Genjutsu masters, they had capability to easier become it through their sharingan. As for instance Sasuke does not master genjutsu. Most Uchiha's did decide to concentrate on genjutsu. And Itachi were a genius and better then most Uchiha's as he did exceed in most skill. But he did not master other areas then genjutsu. Mastery of taijutsu would be such as Guy and Lee. Which Itachi nor Tobirama has shown such great physical mastery. So it all comes down to both Senju's and Uchiha's having different better potential in different areas then others not that they all were the same.itachi's been said to b a master at taijutsu ninjustu an genjustsu aswell