2 More plot holes that you probably already came accross

[Supreme x Uchiha]

This, my good sir, is NOT a plot hole

 

[AlphaScythian]

Failed OP -.-

 

[foxyladyland]

ANSWERED
jiriaya didn't use it against itachi because he didn't have time enough to set it up while kisame was there.
two on one still.....also itachi might have been kinda fishy too him leaf ninja

vs oro he didn't use it because he was drugged by tsunade....they all had been weakened..

also why SANNIN or SAGE is a big deal is because during the war in the Rain village
Jiraiya and Tsunade and Orochimaru were first named SANNIN by HANZO the SALAMANDER of the RAIN VILLAGE..

the name SANNIN is known wide and long throughout the narutoverse.

hope that helps
XD

 

[FearxDeath]

*Edit* - its been pointed out to me that the term plot hole here is incorrect, which I agree with, anyway still leave your thoughts to help clear up my confusion

Sage Mode

After we jump forward in time, Jiraiya is sent on a S Rank mission to find out what's up with pain and amegakure. He infiltrates Pain's stronghold, sneaks around in some ducts and stuff for a while, but is eventually discovered and has to defend himself from an enemy he knows basically nothing about and later turns out to be the antichrist himself. What's an old guy to do?

He reacts by initiating what we now know is called sage or sennin mode, where the users takes on the physical characteristics of a frog and they become super powered through the power of loving trees and grass and stuff. At this point Jiraiya is already well-known to be one of the most powerful dudes in the world, and he just somehow got more powerful by becoming more ugly. Weird trump card!

Why I think this makes no sense:

Correct me If i'm wrong, But before this sage mode was never even hinted at in the series. Not ever.

You must be registered for see images

"Sage what?"

Previously, we were lead to believe that Jiraiya was as powerful as he was because he was skilled in an obscure discipline and had decades of experience under his belt, which is pretty impressive in a world where you could die at any moment without the slightest hint that something is amiss. Sage mode basically makes these assumptions completely false: he wasn't considered powerful because he was a better fighter or because he's been around the block, he's powerful because he has a super secret shape shift ability that makes him a super powered amphibian.

This could very well have been possible if Jiraiya hadn't been caught in no less than two conflicts where going into sage mode would have ended Naruto for good.

The first time was when he encountered Itachi and Kisame in a hotel. At the time he seemed worried about the outcome of the fight but he was still able to put two ridiculously powerful ninjas in a situation that forced them to flee without even considering the possibility of going into sage mode. He didn't go all sennin on they ass, merely finishing with 'Ninpou, Gamaguchi Shibari - summoning the stomach of a toad from Myobokuzan, because he evidently didn't feel threatened enough, because if he did he would have completely ruined their faces and Sasuke's goal of beating his brother would be taken care right then and there. (let the jiraiya vs itachi battle ensue below, but I think my point still stands)

The second time was when he and Tsunade fought Orochimaru in the Sannin battle, where enormous summoned creatures were stomping and slithering around the battlefield. At one point Jiraiya gets hand-to-hand with Orochimaru after sinking his snake summons into a swamp with 'Doton, Yomi Numa' but fails to win the day. Again, if he had access to sage mode at this point then why didn't he use it? By all accounts he could have very easily beat the piss out of Orochimaru, back-handed Kabuto, and basically ended the major conflict of the story right there. If he failed in a big way that day Tsunade and Naruto would have been killed. Was that not good enough reason to use sage mode? (let the Orochimaru Edo BS vs Jiraiya start)

Actually, we all know why he didn't use sage mode on these two occasions: Kishi-san simply hadn't come up with it.


The Elemental Affinity Test

After the time skip it's pretty apparent that Naruto is still pretty lacking. Despite the fact that he spent three years in private training with one of the most powerful ninjas in the known world it turns out he's only any good when someone makes him go ballistic and he accidentally lets out the demon fox sealed in his body. All of the people he graduated to genin rank with, are now chuunin or higher (or jounin if you are exceptional like Shikamaru)

Naruto needed to be powered up. But how? Enter the elemental affinity test to my great frustration.

Basically, when you hold a special piece of paper it will react as if under the influence of one of the elements that apparently all ninjas are naturally aligned. If your elemental alignment is water the paper will dampen, if it's fire the paper will burn, etc. It turns out that Naruto was wind all this time and didn't even know it. And now that he does he can undergo some proper training and get that level up he needed to fight all these ridiculous ninjas around him.

What is my problem with this I hear you say?

Think back to the beginning of the manga/show to when Naruto and company were still in basic training. Remember when Kakashi went through all of the trouble of illustrating the fundamentals of ninja combat by using them on his students?

He was pretty serious about showing his students the ins and outs of being a murderer for hire, and presumably held back from actually trying to kill them because that's what the chuunin exam was for and he didn't want to ruin all the fun.

"So, we just get tagged out or something right? Right?"

So, why didn't he hand Naruto and his team these little pieces of paper in order to discern their elemental affinities right away to help him properly focus their training? The paper is clearly special somehow and maybe it's kinda rare or expensive but this seems pretty important. Why wouldn't teachers get this crucial information as early as possible? To save money? The trees? What? It makes no sense!

You must be registered for see images

The answer is, of course, that Kishi-san made this up way later in order to give him an excuse to power up the characters even more. If he thought this up on day one there there is zero reason for Naruto to not have known his alignment to wind from the first day of his genin training. Argh![/B]

Sorry if this has been posted before, just venting as usual. This is combination of research and reading other people's theories as well.

Here is the problem, you make alot of fairly somewhat weak points and you think that if you take all those weak points and put them together then you magically have a strong point, when in reallity you just have a group of weak points.

Jiraiya didnt use sage mode on Itachi and Kisame because he didnt need too and keep in mind that in order to do it you need to hold your hands together for about 5minutes. This is extremely hard to do vs those to especially in a closed off area. The same goes for his fight against Orochimaru, you said it your self that he was in a HAND to HAND combat with Orochimaru and thus couldnt summon Ma and Pa for sage mode and yet on top of that with orochimaru knowing Jiraiya he would have no doubt have done everything in his power to break his hands and keep him from using sage mode. There is no plot and in any situation someone can argue that someone would be more realistic to have no dont what they did, heck if my life was a movie someone could say "WTF who would make an argument like that, see thats plot right there man why would they havesome guy make a weak argument like that just to set up more drama"...

With kakashi's training methods, Naruto barely and i mean barely got the wind style down and thats with years of prior training and 1000 shadow clones, I dont think Sakura, Sasuke or Naruto would have been able to make use of the special nature chakras at that time and thus it really wouldnt make sense to mention it.

 

[The Fourth]

ANSWERED
jiriaya didn't use it against itachi because he didn't have time enough to set it up while kisame was there.
two on one still.....also itachi might have been kinda fishy too him leaf ninja

vs oro he didn't use it because he was drugged by tsunade....they all had been weakened..

also why SANNIN or SAGE is a big deal is because during the war in the Rain village
Jiraiya and Tsunade and Orochimaru were first named SANNIN by HANZO the SALAMANDER of the RAIN VILLAGE..

the name SANNIN is known wide and long throughout the narutoverse.

hope that helps
XD

That does, one thing though, Sannin, or San-nin simply refers to 3 ninjas, the legendary 3, SENNIN, translate as hermit or sage.

 

[Onion Soda]

Not all the shinobis use their elements. Look at Nagato, supposedly he had all 5 elements. Did he use anyone of them? No, because he is specialized in Rinnegan's jutsus.
Same with clans like Yamanaka, Akimichi, Nara, Aburame, Inuzuka, Hyuga, etc. they're all specialized in ying or yang jutsus. They're focused in mastering a certain kinda of jutsus which doesn't needs to be elemental.

 

[Naru2012]

Um...from reading this little rant, to me it just sounds like you're stating the obvious. And these aren't plot holes. Plot holes are when rules or methods are established and then get overruled or contradicted. Like you said, earlier in the series, kishi simply hadn't thought of these power ups and honestly who can??? Of course kishi is brilliant but he's not god. even if he is making some things up as he goes, everything that has happened in naruto has been amazing!

 

[The Fourth]

Um...from reading this little rant, to me it just sounds like you're stating the obvious. And these aren't plot holes. Plot holes are when rules or methods are established and then get overruled or contradicted. Like you said, earlier in the series, kishi simply hadn't thought of these power ups and honestly who can??? Of course kishi is brilliant but he's not god. even if he is making some things up as he goes, everything that has happened in naruto has been amazing!

Thanks I already realised my mistake, honestly I just wanted to open a discussion to clear my own confusion.

 

[Booker]

Seriously?

You can't expect Kishi to have EVERYTHING planned out from the begining of Naruto. Of course he's going to come up with new stuff to add as the series goes on.

 

[cptenn94]

well buddy, you have potential to make good threads. Your organization is well done. But this time, your content is lacking.

Just because kishi doesnt show us something, in NO WAY means he hadnt thought about it. Kishi has shown time and time again, that he loves to think ahead. I have no doubt in my mind, that kishi had things like sage mode, akausuki etc planned out at least as far as naruto vs gaara. It was no coincidence that he made shukaku come out, and have 1 tail. And since kishi bases a ton of stuff of japense mythology, it wouldnt surprise me at all if he has had the entire plot planned out for a while. But this is enough of me just desputeing your logic.

I will now address your rages, with logic.

"there was never any time in the manga that it was ever shown jiraya had sage mode, or that a sage mode could even exist before he used it vs his fight with pain"

Well it was said several times he was a SAGE, and due to the fact that everyone isnt a sage, it is something that has a meaning. So while it was unexpected, for it to turn out that the title was given to those who had mastered sage mode, it was expected that it meant something.
Again, if he had access to sage mode at this point then why didn't he use it? By all accounts he could have very easily beat the piss out of Orochimaru, back-handed Kabuto, and basically ended the major conflict of the story right there. If he failed in a big way that day Tsunade and Naruto would have been killed. Was that not good enough reason to use sage mode? "


Well, sage mode takes some preparation for jman, and in the fast paced open battlefield, it would be impractical. But EVEN if he had plenty of time to enter sage mode, he couldnt because tsunade poisoned him, weakening his chakra reserves. Without large enough chakra reserves, jman cannot enter sm. So simply he didnt enter sm, because he COULDNT with his chakra levels. Also he only uses sage mode as a super last resort.


"So, why didn't he hand Naruto and his team these little pieces of paper in order to discern their elemental affinities right away to help him properly focus their training?"


This one is so easy.....

It is because he was training his students the BASICS of being part of the ninja system. He didnt have alot of time to teach them their element. I mean he only had like 2-3 months before the chunnin exams came, and only like a month after the exams. As shown with sasuke, he did use the elemental paper.


The ENTIRE PURPOSE of naruto learning wind, so far was to create the fuuton rasengan. Then naruto took it a step further and made the rasenshurikan. So why didnt kakashi teach them their elements. The reason is found in the rest of k11. Each has developed a fighting style, that does not really use elements. Shikamaru uses shadows, ino mind, choji body, kiba uses gasuga and akamaru, hinata and neji gentle fist lee taijutsu, ten ten weapons etc.

Simply, kakashi didnt teach them their elements or test their elements because he had no reason. Each member of his group needed to find their own fighting style they are best at. Teaching sakura her element, would be pointless, as she would be more a genjutsu/ medic type. It would be a waste of time.



SO SIMPLY kakashi didnt teach them elements, because he had no where near enough time, and because he was letting them find their own fighting style. Remember, learning a element TAKES YEARS to do. Naruto and sasuke only learned their elements so fast because naruto had clones, and sasuke had sharingan.

 

[DESTRUCTO]

Jiraiya's hand was forced when he was staring down a rinnegan. He had only seen it once in his life, the rest of Konoha only knew it as myth, the power of the Sage of the Six Paths. He had no other option but to use his trump card. Plus, he thinks it makes him look ugly, as Pa said.

You don't go around flashing your best move to all your enemies. They can prepare for it.

 

[KingHashirama]

like many others mentioned, he COULDN'T go into SM in the Sanin Deadlock.

He had no reason to go to SM vs Itachi since it wasn't serious at that time

Naruto trained in other skills, involving chakra and supressin the kyuubi.

 

[Long Haired Leaf Ninja]

First off jiraiya didn't go into sennin mode because he couldn't mold chakra correctly if you actually WATCH the episode he was drugged so even summonin gamabunta was hard.
Second, he was surprised that sasuke could even use firre jutsu seeing as genin aren't known for elemental jutsu. He didn't feel that they had the basics down yet so he waited but there wasn't much time to do so because of the chunin exams, sasuke's defection and anruto and sakura's apprenticeship.
I agree with this