and from site did you use for the legal definition? I'm gonna make an assumption you live in America so that mean you are going by the attorney generals definition.
Point being is to explain how saying they were toying with hiruzen was taken out of context.
Lets just look at this for a second. The fighting prior to them toying there is fire release, earth release, water release, wood release, heavy taijutsu, summoning, kinjutsu, legs and arms being blown off, and kenjutsu going on. In that darkness the only thing going on is punching and kicking, that in comparison to what was going on prior is by definition toying. You can't compare punching and kicking to fire release, earth release, water release, wood release, heavy taijutsu, summoning, kinjutsu, legs and arms being blown off, and kenjutsu. That's like comparing mike tyson to a kid who is autism,downs syndrome, leukemia, and aids.
I can tell you haven't read any responses and answers. Because your comparing punching and kicking to fire release, earth release, water release, wood release, heavy taijutsu, summoning, kinjutsu, legs and arms being blown off, and kenjutsu.
You didn't get the point. The reason why we don't take into account that fight wasn't because the previous Hokages weren't perfect, because we know they were.
It is because Orochimaru hijacked their control and started using their bodies to toy with Hiruzen, he wanted revenge on him and was getting it by humiliating his former teacher. Long story short, it wasn't Hashirama and Tobirama who were fighting because Orochimaru was pulling the strings all along.
Unless, of course, you want to believe someone so legendary as Hashirama is an inept shinobi that would fall for a crappy paper bomb trick. That's something I wouldn't expect from two village leaders even for Part I standards.
You didn't get the point. The reason why we don't take into account that fight wasn't because the previous Hokages weren't perfect, because we know they were.
It is because Orochimaru hijacked their control and started using their bodies to toy with Hiruzen, he wanted revenge on him and was getting it by humiliating his former teacher. Long story short, it wasn't Hashirama and Tobirama who were fighting because Orochimaru was pulling the strings all along.
Unless, of course, you want to believe someone so legendary as Hashirama is an inept shinobi that would fall for a crappy paper bomb trick. That's something I wouldn't expect from two village leaders even for Part I standards.
I believe facts. It has been stated that the revived can use their original techniques. Therefore regardless of who is pulling the strings, all techniques can be utilized. You like so many others are taking the "toying with hiruzen" out of context since punching and kicking cannot be compared to to fire release, earth release, water release, wood release, heavy taijutsu, summoning, kinjutsu, legs and arms being blown off, and kenjutsu.
If you think everyone doesn't know that the. Ur just dumb sorry
On top of what you said the reason why we complain us
Orochimaru didn't use them to their full extent
Kabutos are stronger because they have more of a freewill to do whatever they want and they know their moves perfectly
The Edos oro used were brain dead and following all commands oro said
Since oro wanted to toy with hiruzen he wa just playing around with him
There are many times oro could have killed hiruzen but his ego cost him that fight
Now I know if oro gives hashirama and Tobirama free will they will probably get out of Edo tensei and kill themselves or help hiruzen instead because that's the type of people they are
With that said if kabuto used his tags on hashirama and Tobirama it would hve been a different story all together
Point being is to explain how saying they were toying with hiruzen was taken out of context.
Lets just look at this for a second. The fighting prior to them toying there is fire release, earth release, water release, wood release, heavy taijutsu, summoning, kinjutsu, legs and arms being blown off, and kenjutsu going on. In that darkness the only thing going on is punching and kicking, that in comparison to what was going on prior is by definition toying. You can't compare punching and kicking to fire release, earth release, water release, wood release, heavy taijutsu, summoning, kinjutsu, legs and arms being blown off, and kenjutsu. That's like comparing mike tyson to a kid who is autism,downs syndrome, leukemia, and aids.
Wrong.. I actually had no clue it was ever stated in the fight "Oro was toying Sarutobi-sensei, or w.e". .
Hm... I like how he edos just countered Sarutobi's moves casually.. and did a genjutsu..
Going by the definition..Oro wasn't taking sarutobi serious.... I don't like it when people say the Bros weren't taking him serious. The bros only toyed with saurtobi..because Oro gave the command.
And .. i hope you do know those moves have a level..... and nor was i comparing them.. Sarutobi only showed jounin level jutsus , besides the last suicide jutsu he pulled off.
Sorry, sir but Oro was trolling with Sarutobi.. Hashirama and Tobirama had no control of their bodies.. just like Zabuza, Haku and many others Kabuto controlled.
Could Madara beat 3rd hokage? In an instant without even opening his eyes. Did Hashirama beat Madara? Yes. Your 1999 proof thing goes against you. I don't think that Kishi knew what the story would be like 12-13 years later. Therefore, by stating 3rd was strongest was just something he thought would be right at the time. If hashi actually tried, he would have bested the 3rd without the use of his wood style -_- I dont understand why people go against this. Think about it logically. If Hashi beat madara and madara can CLEARLY beat the 3rd, there is no way that the 3rd could beat him. Thats why 100% of all top 10s don't even MENTION the 3rd. He just isn't strong compared to the rest of the top 10s. Unless kishi shows anything on either of them at their prime, Im going to continue on Hashi>3rd. Sorry bud, my opinion and definitely the one im sticking to.
And don't even bother saying the whole A>B>C doesnt mean anything and that A>C isn't true. It works in this case because I am not talking about techniques or specialized way of fighting. Just like if I said Itachi>Sasuke>Naruto therefore Itachi>naruto. In most cases, Itachi cant beat Naruto (at this point in the manga), but thats because Itachi's skill set is not good against Naruto's. In this case, i'm not comparing skill sets. Hashi is just STRONGER. If Madara, someone who is 1 billion times stronger than the 3rd, lost to Hashi, there is no way in hell that the 3rd could beat Hashi. It is utterly ridiculous to believe that.
"everything in text" Analyzing a situation means looking at the surroundings, the area itself, what is going on, what caused the situation, and what is being said. So to say they toyed with him the entire fight is taking that line out of context without proper analyzing because they were toying with him only in the genjutsu not the entire fight.
Definition of toying: flirt: playful behavior intended to arouse sexual interest.
I don't believe any playful behavior was going on do you?
Look up a definition of toying around as in kidding around , playful - in this sense toying wa used as in ( ah il embarrass my sensei by kicking him around and crash his spirit and make fun of him - but things didn't go like that when hiruzen was about to die he whipped a suicide move out of his ass )
If you think everyone doesn't know that the. Ur just dumb sorry
On top of what you said the reason why we complain us
Orochimaru didn't use them to their full extent
Kabutos are stronger because they have more of a freewill to do whatever they want and they know their moves perfectly
The Edos oro used were brain dead and following all commands oro said
Since oro wanted to toy with hiruzen he wa just playing around with him
There are many times oro could have killed hiruzen but his ego cost him that fight
Now I know if oro gives hashirama and Tobirama free will they will probably get out of Edo tensei and kill themselves or help hiruzen instead because that's the type of people they are
With that said if kabuto used his tags on hashirama and Tobirama it would hve been a different story all together
Wrong.. I actually had no clue it was ever stated in the fight "Oro was toying Sarutobi-sensei, or w.e". .
Hm... I like how he edos just countered Sarutobi's moves casually.. and did a genjutsu..
Going by the definition..Oro wasn't taking sarutobi serious.... I don't like it when people say the Bros weren't taking him serious. The bros only toyed with saurtobi..because Oro gave the command.
And .. i hope you do know those moves have a level..... and nor was i comparing them.. Sarutobi only showed jounin level jutsus , besides the last suicide jutsu he pulled off.
Sorry, sir but Oro was trolling with Sarutobi.. Hashirama and Tobirama had no control of their bodies.. just like Zabuza, Haku and many others Kabuto controlled.
Could Madara beat 3rd hokage? In an instant without even opening his eyes. Did Hashirama beat Madara? Yes. Your 1999 proof thing goes against you. I don't think that Kishi knew what the story would be like 12-13 years later. Therefore, by stating 3rd was strongest was just something he thought would be right at the time. If hashi actually tried, he would have bested the 3rd without the use of his wood style -_- I dont understand why people go against this. Think about it logically. If Hashi beat madara and madara can CLEARLY beat the 3rd, there is no way that the 3rd could beat him. Thats why 100% of all top 10s don't even MENTION the 3rd. He just isn't strong compared to the rest of the top 10s. Unless kishi shows anything on either of them at their prime, Im going to continue on Hashi>3rd. Sorry bud, my opinion and definitely the one im sticking to.
And don't even bother saying the whole A>B>C doesnt mean anything and that A>C isn't true. It works in this case because I am not talking about techniques or specialized way of fighting. Just like if I said Itachi>Sasuke>Naruto therefore Itachi>naruto. In most cases, Itachi cant beat Naruto (at this point in the manga), but thats because Itachi's skill set is not good against Naruto's. In this case, i'm not comparing skill sets. Hashi is just STRONGER. If Madara, someone who is 1 billion times stronger than the 3rd, lost to Hashi, there is no way in hell that the 3rd could beat Hashi. It is utterly ridiculous to believe that.
You completely contradicted yourself. Hiruzen countered EVERY move hashirama threw at him including the genjutsu. Furthermore kishi wrote his story and said that the third hokage would be the strongest. Any hyping of the previous hokages only makes hiruzen look better.
You completely contradicted yourself. Hiruzen countered EVERY move hashirama threw at him including the genjutsu. Furthermore kishi wrote his story and said that the third hokage would be the strongest. Any hyping of the previous hokages only makes hiruzen look better.
1: He used them to their full extent. Just because kishimoto didn't have flower power or S/T does not mean that they weren't used effectively.
2: I already proved this wrong in my opening statement. Did you read the thread?
3: See number 2
4: Read post #64
5: That is merely a what if statement and does not apply to the scenario.
See my opening statement about the no control thing. Everything else you stated has no bearing on the situation or refutes me in anyway.
You completely contradicted yourself. Hiruzen countered EVERY move hashirama threw at him including the genjutsu. Furthermore kishi wrote his story and said that the third hokage would be the strongest. Any hyping of the previous hokages only makes hiruzen look better.
When hiruzen was hit by BoD he was shocked and started blocking ... And what does oro do he makes the Edos kick and punch him... If Edos moved back and just drowned him with water or even chucked a Kunai to his head he wouldn't have known what hit him
Edos are weapons and a weapon is as good as its user remember that
When hiruzen was hit by BoD he was shocked and started blocking ... And what does oro do he makes the Edos kick and punch him... If Edos moved back and just drowned him with water or even chucked a Kunai to his head he wouldn't have known what hit him
Edos are weapons and a weapon is as good as its user remember that
Theres no point arguing about this, it just comes down to a story which doesnt add up.
Hiruzen was called the professor for supposedly mastering all known jutsu.... This makes zero sense straight away, as there are obviously so many jutsu that he literally couldnt perform such as all the various gekki genkai of the different konoha clans. Its obvious that he couldnt do this, so everyone just assumes that wasnt what Kishi meant, but everyone has no problem assuming that he mastered all 5 elements and other shit. It was a lazy manga nickname, he could have been called anything, but the point made is that he was a badass!
Basically when the 3rd was made up by Kishi, he was given a cool reason for being hokage, and the 1st was just some wood dude who formed the village. I remember being like, so wtf is so great about wood??? Now Kishi has made up new shit about the 1st to fit the story, and it contradicts his previous story about the 3rd. Its just a stupid mistake by the author.
All the Kages are badass for different reasons, its very difficult to keep a story up for nearly 15 years with messing up like this.
And the fight they had was for story purposes, if you guys insist on talking about who is stronger and shit, then accept that pretty much any character has a possibility of killing any of ninja. Its a shame this manga is so toned down, if I was writing it there would be death all over the place. Its supposed to be a war!
We have seen Hashirama in combat before against the 3rd hokage and according to the manga, he could use all of his abilities.
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Now I know what some of you people may be thinking, "Well orochimaru couldn't use edo tensei very well or Orochimaru didn't understand Hashirama's techniques." Well you are sadly wrong according to the manga. The manga states in the spoiler I posted above, that the revived can use all of their original abilities, that seal doesn't prevent those abilities from being used, and that orochimaru had complete mastery over edo tensei.
Some of you will still deny the truth even though the manga specifically states orochimaru mastered it and the revived user with the tailsmens embedded inside them could use all their original abilities.
Also some of you may say something ignorant like "Hashirama and Tobirama didn't utilize all their techniques, hashirama didn't use his almighty flower power and tobirama didn't use his S/T jutsu's." You guys are seriously the worst out of every fanboy on this site including the minato and itachi ones. Read this spoiler.
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Notice anything about it? It says 1999 by Masashi Kishimoto. You seriously believe Kishimoto had thought about every technique that the previous hokages can use in 1999? We heard about their newer techniques in 2011-2012 meaning 12-13 years after they were introduced they were thought of and put in the manga to hype them up.
Also some of you fanboys may say "Well their emotions were sealed so that made them weaker." Again you are wrong. Here naruto states
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in chapter 551 page 3 that Nagato was being completely controlled no emotions. Here
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in Naruto chapter 551 page 10 that even though he was under direct control and has no emotions like Hashirama and Tobirama, he was admittedly far superior to his original self and even killerbee states he was ridiculously strong. Some of you may argue "Well he absorbed gyuki chakra so that made him stronger. Again you are wrong, even though he had the chakra, that gave him the ability to walk not improve his ninja abilities. Here
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Kurama gives kakashi chakra. Here
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we see kakashi hasn't gotten a boost in strength or any ninja abilities. Therefore the chakra did not do anything to nagato but give him the power to walk again. The only time one gets an enhancement in abilities from bijuu chakra is when it takes a shroud over the user or acts as it did in naruto's kyuubi initial phase in part one.
With all that being said, Hashirama and Tobirama were at their prime(since they died young) and could utilize all their techniques during their only fight scene with Hiruzen. There is no way they were "incomplete" as the manga specifically states the revived even with the tailsmen inside them can use all their original techniques.
Well for someone who's name is "unbiased" you sound really biased. What you're not getting is there are 2 different levels of control when it comes to edo tensei.
First type of control that completely erases the edo's mind. If you watched the fight you'll notice that at the start of the fight they were chatting with Hiruzen until Oro placed the tags on them. That tag killed their personalities completely. They become brain dead zombies. The tag completely bends them to Oro's will. Orochimaru controlled their every movement. Throughout the fight, they didnt move unless Oro tells them to. Thats why Hiruzen was able to tag them without them noticing, because they don't have a brain. Do you really believe the leaders of the senju clan who had fought several wars wouldnt have noticed such a cheap trick? A shinbi's brain is a very vital part of his "power". Its not about what techniques they have or how powerful their techniques are. Its about how they use them. For example, give Naruto Minato's techs and he wont be anywhere near as effective as Minato cos he doesnt have the intellect to use Minato's techs
Then there's the second type of control which only Kabuto is capable of. With this tag, Kabuto doesnt have to control each and everyone of their movements. He just gives them a command, say "capture Naruto". The edo is then free to use whatever method is necessary to achieve that goal. An example will be Deidara and Madara. They were given free will by Kabuto to do whatever they want. It's also the reason why some of the edos were able to disobey Kabuto temporarily, e.g Hanzo. Because the tags he used went as restrictive as Orochimaru's.
Theres no point arguing about this, it just comes down to a story which doesnt add up.
Hiruzen was called the professor for supposedly mastering all known jutsu.... This makes zero sense straight away, as there are obviously so many jutsu that he literally couldnt perform such as all the various gekki genkai of the different konoha clans. Its obvious that he couldnt do this, so everyone just assumes that wasnt what Kishi meant, but everyone has no problem assuming that he mastered all 5 elements and other shit. It was a lazy manga nickname, he could have been called anything, but the point made is that he was a badass!
Basically when the 3rd was made up by Kishi, he was given a cool reason for being hokage, and the 1st was just some wood dude who formed the village. I remember being like, so wtf is so great about wood??? Now Kishi has made up new shit about the 1st to fit the story, and it contradicts his previous story about the 3rd. Its just a stupid mistake by the author.
All the Kages are badass for different reasons, its very difficult to keep a story up for nearly 15 years with messing up like this.
And the fight they had was for story purposes, if you guys insist on talking about who is stronger and shit, then accept that pretty much any character has a possibility of killing any of ninja. Its a shame this manga is so toned down, if I was writing it there would be death all over the place. Its supposed to be a war!
1: He mastered all the jutsu in konoha meaning he learned all 5 elemental releases which is possible. (KKG and Hidden jutsus are exempt as they are clan related.)
2: I like your spunk lol I understand where your coming from though. I just like to orchestrate facts so there is an understanding of whats going on. It is true any ninja can kill another one I'm just trying to disprove the fact that people keep on saying hashirama> hiruzen when that's simply not true. Its not like those people lie on purpose but they miss the subliminal text that are thrown throughout the manga that backup hiruzen. I even have a thread which list them all lol
Well for someone who's name is "unbiased" you sound really biased. What you're not getting is there are 2 different levels of control when it comes to edo tensei.
First type of control that completely erases the edo's mind. If you watched the fight you'll notice that at the start of the fight they were chatting with Hiruzen until Oro placed the tags on them. That tag killed their personalities completely. They become brain dead zombies. The tag completely bends them to Oro's will. Orochimaru controlled their every movement. Throughout the fight, they didnt move unless Oro tells them to. Thats why Hiruzen was able to tag them without them noticing, because they don't have a brain. Do you really believe the leaders of the senju clan who had fought several wars wouldnt have noticed such a cheap trick?
Then there's the second type of control which only Kabuto is capable of. With this tag, Kabuto doesnt have to control each and everyone of their movements. He just gives them a command, say "capture Naruto". The edo is then free to use whatever method is necessary to achieve that goal. An example will be Deidara and Madara. They were given free will by Kabuto to do whatever they want. It's also the reason why some of the edos were able to disobey Kabuto temporarily, e.g Hanzo. Because the tags he used went as restrictive as Orochimaru's.
1: You seem to be forgetting that even when they are brain dead they still are just as powerful as when they are conscious. Nagato and the third hokage are prime examples. Matter of fact Nagato got even more powerful when he was brain dead.
2: There's no proof the user controls their every movement. According to kabuto they follow the orders that they are given and don't need to be told what to do for every move.
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