【Varrah vs Waltz】: Healthy Itachi vs EMS Sasuke

[KeyofDestiny]

....

2. Itachi will create a crow clone; this clone will be called "Clone A."
3. Clone A will summon three dozen crows and then summon a crow clone, called "Clone B."
4. The crows will disperse away from the location.
5. Clone A will proceed to fight Sasuke as the crows are dispersing from the area; Clone B will assist Clone A cautiously.

Varrah's question, and your answer pretty much made it so that Itachi can do all this before Sasuke uses Chidori Spear and blind him in the process? Am I right? Cause while that does mean Varrah's acts 2-5 take place, his acts don't even properly explain how he'd begin to capture Sasuke, how he'd succesfully capture Sasuke before the latter acts, nor does it leave Sasuke in a position where he's unable to do anything at all. So I'm not seeing how you couldn't continue on from there nor am I seeing how he won. I'm 100% confused here.

 

[Airbear]

Now that was a real debate


@Key: Stipulations said 3 posts maximum, and varrah countered waltz strategy effectively by proving that his strategy was flawed from the start. So strictly off these 3 posts from both sides, Varrah had the more effective strategy.

 

[Waltz]

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Varrah's question, and your answer pretty much made it so that Itachi can do all this before Sasuke uses Chidori Spear and blind him in the process? Am I right? Cause while that does mean Varrah's acts 2-5 take place, his acts don't even properly explain how he'd begin to capture Sasuke, how he'd succesfully capture Sasuke before the latter acts, nor does it leave Sasuke in a position where he's unable to do anything at all. So I'm not seeing how you couldn't continue on from there nor am I seeing how he won. I'm 100% confused here.

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[KeyofDestiny]

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That doesn't address my questions. I'd see what you meant by you had no opportunity to counter due to the post limit if you had used up all your posts. OP says that you get 3 posts. You made 2. The opener, and then the post where you stated that Itachi's hand seals are faster. (assuming you are counting that)

That leaves you with one last post, and with Sasuke in this position:

Clone A will proceed to fight Sasuke as the crows are dispersing from the area; Clone B will assist Clone A cautiously.

Where Clones A and B attack Sasuke, who's vision is being impaired by the clones. That doesn't explain how exactly Sasuke gets captured, not to mention there are things he can still do once the clones have engaged him regardless of his vision being impaired. You should easily be able to explain why Sasuke won't get captured there. Either I'm missing something, or I'm right. Pretty sure I'm not missing anything though.

 

[Waltz]

Now that was a real debate


@Key: Stipulations said 3 posts maximum, and varrah countered waltz strategy effectively by proving that his strategy was flawed from the start. So strictly off these 3 posts from both sides, Varrah had the more effective strategy.

A bit wrong there. As I stated in post #3, I guess Varrah capitalized surprisingly on the fact that there is nothing in Sauce's arsenal that could be initiated faster than Itachi's hand-seal speed; thus creating a scenario that there was no way for me to ever counter his strategy to capture Sasuke to begin with. As long as I couldn't then his strategy succeeds. ​

 

[Airbear]

A bit wrong there. As I stated in post #3, I guess Varrah capitalized surprisingly on the fact that there is nothing in Sauce's arsenal that could be initiated faster than Itachi's hand-seal speed; thus creating a scenario that there was no way for me to ever counter his strategy to capture Sasuke to begin with. As long as I couldn't then his strategy succeeds. ​

Gotcha

 

[KeyofDestiny]

A bit wrong there. As I stated in post #3, I guess Varrah capitalized surprisingly on the fact that there is nothing in Sauce's arsenal that could be initiated faster than Itachi's hand-seal speed; thus creating a scenario that there was no way for me to ever counter his strategy to capture Sasuke to begin with. As long as I couldn't then his strategy succeeds. ​

Now I kinda see what you mean. Thanks for explaining.

 

[Varrah]

I thought about trolling the judges by making Itachi transform into a crow and then leaving the area so that neither Waltz nor I would win. ​

 

[Apêx1]

Actually Waltz, your lame attempt at creating a troll debate was ruined by you without knowing it. Varrah's entire argument depends upon his 5 points working as that is his only stratetgy. According to it, his crows disperse;

[*]The crows will disperse away from the location.
[*]Clone A will proceed to fight Sasuke as the crows are dispersing from the area; Clone B will assist Clone A cautiously.

Within your strategy you said;

If Itachi resorts to Karasu bunshin, they are all pinned with Senbons.

So unless you think crows dispersing are faster then Sasuke leaving the LoS blocking ability, there's nothing to argue here as Senbon will surely pin them according to your own strategy. Not to mention there are a variety of counters EMS Sasuke can undertake in order to prevent being 'captured', which remains unexpanded on by Varrah. So my judgement remains unchanged.

I thought about trolling the judges by making Itachi transform into a crow and then leaving the area so that neither Waltz nor I would win. ​

Not possible brah. And as long as he has some kind of argument he'd win by default since a debate is not about who wins the fight, but who argues his points better.

 

[Chīkara]

These guys are trolling. It has never been stated who tries to capture who.
They were debating EMS Sasuke trying to capture Itachi which is why Varrah started off like that.

Varrah won the match because Waltz agreed with Hand seals > Chidori Shinsō.
That's the reason why the debate was over at that point. Too much crow bunshins with the same chakra (If im correct)
Sasuke isn't chasing all of them. So Itachi is long gone.


Varrah wins.

I might be wrong tho' because these 2 are on some other shit.

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[Apêx1]

These guys are trolling. It has never been stated who tries to capture who.
They were debating EMS Sasuke trying to capture Itachi which is why Varrah started off like that.

Varrah won the match because Waltz agreed with Hand seals > Chidori Shinsō.
That's the reason why the debate was over at that point. Too much crow bunshins with the same chakra (If im correct)
Sasuke isn't chasing all of them. So Itachi is long gone.


Varrah wins.

I might be wrong tho' because these 2 are on some other shit.

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Waltz agreed on that point, but that particular point doesn't change Chidori Senbon pinning all the Crows after dispersion. No ability will be large enough to prevent EMS Sasuke from losing sight for more then a split second, so being able to execute hand seals does not mean crow dispersion will be going smoothly.

 

[Chīkara]

Waltz agreed on that point, but that particular point doesn't change Chidori Senbon pinning all the Crows after dispersion. No ability will be large enough to prevent EMS Sasuke from losing sight for more then a split second, so being able to execute hand seals does not mean crow dispersion will be going smoothly.

Well, the location is in the woodlands. It would be easier for Itachi to hide and escape.

1. Itachi, if possible, will do some move intended to block Sasuke's vision.
2. Itachi will create a crow clone; this clone will be called "Clone A."
3. Clone A will summon three dozen crows and then summon a crow clone, called "Clone B."
4. The crows will disperse away from the location.
5. []I]Clone A[/I] will proceed to fight Sasuke as the crows are dispersing from the area; Clone B will assist Clone A cautiously.

​

Due to the reason Waltz agreed with Handseals > Chidori. all these points will be used, they'll create a dozen of crows who will escape.

IMO:

1. -> Sasuke will think Itachi is 1 of those crows and go after them.
2. -> Sasuke will think Itachi is clone ''A''
3. -> Sasuke will think Itachi is clone ''B'' trying to attack from behind.

If he is going for 1 he first has to deal with 2.
If he is going for 2 he has to deal with 3 and let 1 escape

With this all in play it'll be easier for Itachi to escape. Do keep in mind Sasuke isn't starting in PS and can't kill Itachi by busting the woodlands with his PS sword.


I thought this would be a stomp match because I didn't read the intent. But I firmly believe Itachi is escaping
if handseals > Chidori tho'


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[Worm]

Here's a question for all the posts above; is Sasuke's Susano'o restricted or not?

 

[Rιver]

Am I allowed to judge now? Okay.

Mind informing people; I never judge based on verdict. People here based on verdict and the outcome of the match. That's flawed and I disagree with that. In my eyes if you use Kiba against HM Naruto and manage to pressure the opposition you can win. You can write 5 words and still win. So please understand my judgment.


Waltz: your tactic was unique and not the same as others debaters. You didn't use raw force but you used skill of the character to determine the match. It's a plus. But that plus was outweighed by the minus of Varrahs post and how he countered you. Ok... let me explain.

The first counter posted by Varrah was similar to FITD or DITF technique. Also a mixture of compliance. Varrah said this:

Waltz your answer to this question will determine the match.

What do you think is faster in the event Itachi flings some attack to block his brother's vision,

A)Itachi's hand-seals

or

B) Sasuke's chidori spear?

Probably the shortest reply as well as most effective I have seen in OD. You took the bait, agreed with him and that alone crumbled the rest of your argument:

acts 2-5 are already in play.

So effectively:

1. He made strategy you couldn't counter.

2. He broke your argument with one sentence.

3. He didn't change his argument but kept it going until the very end--literally.

So in conclusion, the victory goes to Varrah.​

 

[Waltz]

Actually Waltz, your lame attempt at creating a troll debate was ruined by you without knowing it. Varrah's entire argument depends upon his 5 points working as that is his only stratetgy.

..Smh...

My intention was never to create a 'troll debate' and that should have been made clear to you by the nature of my first post. If I wanted to do so I would have declared Varrah's strategy unbeatable initially. I specifically took several minutes to post Manga references, arguments and tried to counter Varrah's strategy at every point. However, his route was as surprising to me as anyone else.

@Bold: Varrah had the first move in which he used to put forth a possible strategy on how Itachi could capture Sasuke. The only way for me to intercept his strategy is by stopping Itachi from performing some attack that would impair Sasukes vision as everything else is predicated upon that. Think about it: If Sasukes vision is impaired then there is no way he could pin the the crows with Chidori Senbon so every thing I stated that would take place after that point never occurs and Varrah's strategy remains successful.

@Chikara: We were debating EMS Sasuke vs Itachi; both having a mindset to capture the opponent. Varrah won the debate because put forth a strategy that could only be countered if the opponent possesses some technique that is faster than Itachi's Hand-seal speed. In this case Sasuke has none; so his strategy became unbeatable.

I thought this would be a stomp match because I didn't read the intent. But I firmly believe Itachi is escaping
if handseals > Chidori tho'

Alright.

@ River:No Varrah broke my argument with his initial post because I didn't counter it to begin with. My response to his question was the only response I could have given. Even if I formed another argument it still wouldn't counter his strategy because there is nothing Sasuke's arsenal that could be initiated faster than Itachi's hand-seal speed. ​

 

[Apêx1]

Well, the location is in the woodlands. It would be easier for Itachi to hide and escape.



Due to the reason Waltz agreed with Handseals > Chidori. all these points will be used, they'll create a dozen of crows who will escape.

IMO:

1. -> Sasuke will think Itachi is 1 of those crows and go after them.
2. -> Sasuke will think Itachi is clone ''A''
3. -> Sasuke will think Itachi is clone ''B'' trying to attack from behind.

If he is going for 1 he first has to deal with 2.
If he is going for 2 he has to deal with 3 and let 1 escape

With this all in play it'll be easier for Itachi to escape. Do keep in mind Sasuke isn't starting in PS and can't kill Itachi by busting the woodlands with his PS sword.


I thought this would be a stomp match because I didn't read the intent. But I firmly believe Itachi is escaping
if handseals > Chidori tho'


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I sincerely hope you are not trying to suggest Trees can block the LoS of a Sharingan user when Sasuke has seen through the ground and through parts of the cave.

And no, your logic is wrong. The crows initially disperse, during their dispersion Sasuke will pin them before they ever have a chance to indirectly aid Clone A or Clone B. And Handseals>Chidori. How does that have any effect on the overall outcome of the battle? Itachi's Raiton is the perfect ability to capture due to its numbing properties. Since Waltz mentioned them, there's literally no reason to assume Varrah's points assure a victory. He uses the crows as a key part of his argument because it's the only method Itachi can utilise in order to have a chance of closing the distance between him and Sasuke. But his points depend on it, and if you remove a factor which a character depends on, he won't be able to conclude his strategy successfully. So regardless of the 'intent to capture' mindset, it won't change anything as Varrah failed to succeed in convincing me Itachi has the faintest chance of capturing EMS Sasuke. Varrah's argument depended on Waltz not saying anything which works faster then Itachi's hand seals, yet hand seals don't necessarily give Itachi the victory since his EMS's enhanced precognition can easily perceive them if it perceived Juubito. These would all not need to be mentioned by Waltz, they are givens that come with him debating EMS Sasuke. He doesn't need to tell me EMS Sasuke's Amateratsu burns people for it to be attributed to his argument, it's a given. So by him choosing EMS Sasuke, it was a fact from the start that Itachi can do nothing with his hand-seals to prevent EMS Sasuke seeing them and using the Susano arm Waltz mentioned to capture Itachi.

..Smh...

My intention was never to create a 'troll debate' and that should have been made clear to you by the nature of my first post. If I wanted to do so I would have declared Varrah's strategy unbeatable initially. I specifically took several minutes to post Manga references, arguments and tried to counter Varrah's strategy at every point. However, his route was as surprising to me as anyone else. ​

It's clear as day that your intention was to glorify hand seals. Who are you trying to fool here? You purposefully chose to exclude Chidori Nagashi from your points as well despite the fact that it requires no hand seals. And yes you did all that.. How exactly does that begin to imply you and Varrah didn't plan this out in the first place?

@Bold: Varrah had the first move in which he used to put forth a possible strategy on how Itachi could capture Sasuke. The only way for me to intercept his strategy is by stopping Itachi from performing some attack that would impair Sasukes vision as everything else is predicated upon that. Think about it: If Sasukes vision is impaired then there is no way he could pin the the crows with Chidori Senbon so every thing I stated that would take place after that point never occurs and Varrah's strategy remains successful.

Sasuke's vision would be impaired, yes. But for how long? We both know his Shunshin speed in EMS is insane, a Katon or any other impairing jutsu would have negligible effect on Sasuke, since the crows still get overcome by Chidori Senbon a split-second later (which is all it takes for Sasuke Sasuke to leave the LoS impairing ability).​

 

[Forbidden Technique]

there is nothing Sasuke's arsenal that could be initiated faster than Itachi's hand-seal speed. ​

Susano'o's activation is literally instant...

 

[Chīkara]

Susano'o's activation is literally instant...

Now that I think of it we have Amaterasu.​

 

[Worm]

Susano'o's activation is literally instant...

Debate was set up to conclude Varrah as the victor from the start.

 

[Chīkara]

@Chikara: We were debating EMS Sasuke vs Itachi; both having a mindset to capture the opponent. Varrah won the debate because put forth a strategy that could only be countered if the opponent possesses some technique that is faster than Itachi's Hand-seal speed. In this case Sasuke has none; so his strategy became unbeatable.



Alright.

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I agree with Itachi escaping. But I firmly disagree with Itachi capturing Sasuke. Both you and I know that's impossible.​

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