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【NB Debate Tourney: Dr.Proof vs.Negative Knight】

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DrProof said:
In The Beginning.. Sasori vs Kisame


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In the beginning, Sasori would most likely have to take care of the problem at hand; Samehada. This chakra eating symbiotic sword is the main problem for Sasori, taking care of this weapon is the first step into pressuring Kisame, and ultimately defeating him in the midst of battle. How exactly will Sasori counter Samehada:
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Samehada has shown properties into showing signs of being alive (eating chakra, disdainful reactions to Katon, favor over another host etc.) enabling me to propose that Samehada in fact is alive, and of course reacts with its host;
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Symbiont: an organism living in symbiosis
Click to expand...
Symbosis:
Close association of animals or plants: a close association of animals or plants of different species that is often, but not always, of mutual benefit.

Mutually beneficial relationship: a cooperative, mutually beneficial relationship between two people or groups.
Click to expand...
Now that the establishment of Samehada being alive is presented, I can go on with my counter against it:

Sasori was very adept in poison formally developing a poison in which killed his victim in three days, with paralysis as a side effect,
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. Kisame has been shown to expose Samehada's bodily features very often (against Gai, and Bee etc.) thus, leaving Samehada open for wounds, or in general exposure to Sasori's lethal poison.

Due to Sasori starting in Hiruko this gives him an even more advantage as every technique he possesses while using Hiruko is poison covered (
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):

All weapons installed in Hiruko were coated in Sasori's special brand of poison, which would kill the victim after three days of painful paralysis.

Extendible iron tail provided offence by stabbing and defence by rotating around the body.
Heavy back shell for additional defence.
Rapid launching of senbon from the mouth.
Torpedo-shaped left arm that launches shrapnel of senbon in all directions.
Click to expand...
Kisame has also been seen to block attacks using Samehada I believe (Kisame's more over a tank). So due to Kisame's speed disadvantage, and not knowing about Sasori's abilities in this fight he'd have no other way of countering other than blocking which would be Samehada's, and most likely his own downfall.
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)

Kisame is simply cornered by poison, along with Samehada being paralyzed and dying (within 3 days) due to it being that of an organism.
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* Underlined text are manga page links.
* This is my introductory argument.
​
​
Click to expand...

Establishing the natural immunity of samehada

Hmm , inroducing biology to prove samahada and kisame are in symbiosis .. huh ?
~ lets dig in a lttle deeper ~

the mechanism poison works is by binding to the cells, depriving them of oxygen and eventually killing them.

why do cells need oxygen?

Oxygen is required for Cellular respiration
Cellular respiration involves the set of the metabolic reactions and processes that take place in the cells of organisms to convert biochemical energy from nutrients ( i.e FOOD) into adenosine triphosphate (ATP)which is nothing but an energy packet
Respiration is one of the key ways a cell gains useful energy to fuel cellular activity.


-- Unlike kisame who fuels his energy requirement from cellular respiration of consumed physical food
substances The samehada's energy requirement is met by the host's chakra and not by material Food thus making oxygen a non - factor for its cellular needs.

As stated earlier the poison works by binding to the cells, depriving them of oxygen and eventually killing them and oxygen being a non - factor of samehada's cellular needs
makes samehada naturally immune to poison​





DrProof said:
Countering Water Prison + Samehada Merge ​

You might remember this as well ;):

As for Water dome, Sasori doesn't need to breathe, all of his poision would soak into the water and the immediately vicinity around him becomes lethal for anyone to enter. Samehada Fusion mode means Kisame breathes through gills, wouldn't he simply take in the poison as well resulting in his own demise.
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That quote itself in which you provided a while back is all that is needed to dispute your argument for Kisame's Water Dome/Samehada fusion. The poison in which Sasori would emit would cause
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spreading through the water.

Osmosis:

Slow change in concentration: the diffusion of a solvent through a semipermeable membrane from a dilute to a more concentrated solution.
Gradual absorption: the gradual, often unconscious, absorption of knowledge or ideas through continual exposure rather than deliberate learning.
Click to expand...
Kisame when fused with Samehada uses gills to breathe (as any shark in water does) thus, Kisame passively absorbs the contents in the water inhabiting his circulatory system paralyzing him, and killing him within three days.

Your Samehada healing Kisame is futile to bring up as of now in this scenario as the paralysis is instant, while also with the introduction to the poison Kisame would have no time to break away from Samehada to receive "replenishment".

Sasori triumphs this match-up.

*Underlined Red are Manga Scans.
*This is my rebuttal.
*Most likely won't get to counter; school, and working out today.
[/FONT][/INDENT][/border]
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nooks and crooks of sasori's Poison



The existence and the antidote of sasori's poison was unknown to even a high rank medical ninja like chiyo
and since the antidote's to naturally occuring poison's ( poison's of certain plants or animals ) were known to medical ninja's it is safe to assume that sasori's poison was formed from pure chemical synthesis or from the chemical combination of several natural poison's this categorizes sasori's poison as SYNTHETIC
and a mixture of SYNTHETIC POISON and WATER is heterogenous in other words sasori's poison is insoluble in water
my statement is further backed by the insoluble properties of sasori's poison shown during its extraction from kankuro

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you may argue that the water used for the process was infused with chakra but it is known that the presence of ENERGY / CHARGE in the solvent is not a factor effecting osmosis

Osmosis:

Slow change in concentration: the diffusion of a solvent through a semipermeable membrane from a dilute to a more concentrated solution.
Gradual absorption: the gradual, often unconscious, absorption of knowledge or ideas through continual exposure rather than deliberate learning.
Click to expand...
thus even if sasori' releases the poison in the water dome your above mentioned process of osmosis will not occur instead it will get suspended as blobs of poison sphere's and will eventually sink to the bottom

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[/B] thus the synthetic-insoluble property of sasori's poison will render it useless in kisame's water dome



Even if sasori possess a water soluble poison and releases it into the dome

-- its dissolution will take time due to slow osmosis and kisame could make one of his water sharks move to the poison released area ; swallow up the surrouding poison infested water and jump out of the dome thus keeping the dome free from poison

Considering a scenario where the dome is already infested with poison

-- it is known that by concentrating chakra kisame can release massive amounts of water from his mouth
in case the dome is already infected with poison kisame can spit a pulse of water from his mouth which would encapsulate the immediate surroundings ( his head ) and thus by breathing from it he can negate the effect of poison in the surrounding water


by repeating the above process at repeated time intervals ( say 10 sec ) he can manage to keep the water surrounding his gills fresh and free from sasori's poison


^ just wanna hear your ideas on this ^

now that the debate is over i hope it is not wrong on my part to post this :)
if yes plz VM me and i'll delete it right away





​
 
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DrProof

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uchiha iitachii said:
Establishing the natural immunity of samehada

Hmm , inroducing biology to prove samahada and kisame are in symbiosis .. huh ?
~ lets dig in a lttle deeper ~

the mechanism poison works is by binding to the cells, depriving them of oxygen and eventually killing them.

why do cells need oxygen?

Oxygen is required for Cellular respiration
Cellular respiration involves the set of the metabolic reactions and processes that take place in the cells of organisms to convert biochemical energy from nutrients ( i.e FOOD) into adenosine triphosphate (ATP)which is nothing but an energy packet
Respiration is one of the key ways a cell gains useful energy to fuel cellular activity.


-- Unlike kisame who fuels his energy requirement from cellular respiration of consumed physical food
substances The samehada's energy requirement is met by the host's chakra and not by material Food thus making oxygen a non - factor for its cellular needs.

As stated earlier the poison works by binding to the cells, depriving them of oxygen and eventually killing them and oxygen being a non - factor of samehada's cellular needs
makes samehada naturally immune to poison​







nooks and crooks of sasori's Poison



The existence and the antidote of sasori's poison was unknown to even a high rank medical ninja like chiyo
and since the antidote's to naturally occuring poison's ( poison's of certain plants or animals ) were known to medical ninja's it is safe to assume that sasori's poison was formed from pure chemical synthesis or from the chemical combination of several natural poison's this categorizes sasori's poison as SYNTHETIC
and a mixture of SYNTHETIC POISON and WATER is heterogenous in other words sasori's poison is insoluble in water
my statement is further backed by the insoluble properties of sasori's poison shown during its extraction from kankuro

You must be registered for see images


you may argue that the water used for the process was infused with chakra but it is known that the presence of ENERGY / CHARGE in the solvent is not a factor effecting osmosis



thus even if sasori' releases the poison in the water dome your above mentioned process of osmosis will not occur instead it will get suspended as blobs of poison sphere's and will eventually sink to the bottom

You must be registered for see images


[/B] thus the synthetic-insoluble property of sasori's poison will render it useless in kisame's water dome



Even if sasori possess a water soluble poison and releases it into the dome

-- its dissolution will take time due to slow osmosis and kisame could make one of his water sharks move to the poison released area ; swallow up the surrouding poison infested water and jump out of the dome thus keeping the dome free from poison

Considering a scenario where the dome is already infested with poison

-- it is known that by concentrating chakra kisame can release massive amounts of water from his mouth
in case the dome is already infected with poison kisame can spit a pulse of water from his mouth which would encapsulate the immediate surroundings ( his head ) and thus by breathing from it he can negate the effect of poison in the surrounding water


by repeating the above process at repeated time intervals ( say 10 sec ) he can manage to keep the water surrounding his gills fresh and free from sasori's poison


^ just wanna hear your ideas on this ^

now that the debate is over i hope it is not wrong on my part to post this :)
if yes plz VM me and i'll delete it right away





​
Click to expand...
I just want to say one thing, and one thing only to you. GTFO. Please.
 
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Frikid

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DrProof said:
Nk didn't win what? I went first, he made the rebuttals. We exceeded the time given with extensions. The judges will judge now. lol.
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more than 2 people except NK have attempted to counter your arguments so i wont blame you even if you lose. NK was lucky and you were unlucky in this. Lol
 
Tragic Nous

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Exams held me up; and none of the other judging is considerable...so Proof you shouldn't worry.

-6 Paths- is taking my place for the tourney, so he will be scoring this debates instead of myself.
 

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A truly marvelous debate, truly marvelous...Both sides made great points, and some really convincing arguments, and to be honest, this is one of the hardest decision I've ever had to make on this site.

DrProof​

Your arguments were well-constructed and you've definitely improved your style since your debate with Owarij. You took an effective, more aggressive path in this debate, which is definitely a lot more effective strategy than staying on the defensive side.
Opening post​

I liked your solution to target Samehada instead of Kisame himself with the poison type attacks, it was something I'd never thought of before.

While we may disagree on Kisame's power without Samehada, I think it's safe to say that this was a good opening post.
Second Post​

The first part of the post seemed a bit far fetched. Kisame had already been shown to be able to manipulate chakra and convert into Stamina to heal himself, so it would be kind of odd for him not to be able to do the same to Samehada, especially since we already saw that she seemed perfectly healthy even before they made the transformation [
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] Since we don't know fully how the bond between Samehada and Kisame works we can't really say for sure, but since there's nothing that points to the transformation itself being the reason for her replenished health, I'd say that it's much more likely that she can heal the same way Kisame does, through teamwork with her partner.

For your second post, I agree. The Iron Sand is indeed not restricted to slow movement, and is certainly not something that's easy to dodge, at least when it comes to attacks like the Iron Sand Drizzle.

For your third post, I agree too, aside from the last line. Judging by the effects the poison has on the victim's body, the poison doesn't destroy the cells (at least not fast enough for it to be a problem for Samehada), but rather damages them and paralyses. If the poison did truly get rid of the cells, the victim wouldn't be able to survive for as long as three days, especially since they spread so quickly throughout the body. However, you will find that that is actually a good thing against something like Samehada's healing.

The Fourth post however, was a little bit far fetched. The amount of poison on his body itself would not be enough to provide any real threat to Kisame, and would quickly dissolve in the Water, as NK pointed out. Even if it did, Kisame, knowing about the opponents poison, would likely not risk going close to the opponent, as it would also give Sasori an opening to attack him, but would rather use a long ranged attack to take him out, like one of his sharks for example.
Overall​

Overall, you did a good job, as expected. There were some holes in some of your arguments, but in most cases, they were minor ones. Good job.

Negative Knight​

As expected, your performance was also great. You brought up some very solid points, but just like in Proof's argument, I feel that there are a few things I disagree with.
Opening post​

Your first post was a bit shaky to be honest. Like Proof pointed out, you explained why Samehada would be able to heal the wounds, but at the same time, she doesn't have any way to remove the poison, or negate it's effects. While it would replenish the physical wounds of the attack received, it does, as you say, only create new cells to fill up the space left by those removed from the attacks, but it doesn't actually heal the damaged cells themselves, it only multiplies the healthy ones. In this case, that would mean that while Samehada would heal up Kisame's wounds (Or the other way around), neither has any counter to the poison itself, meaning that it would still continue to spread around damaging the cells, while at the same time not destroying them completely. Actually, I believe you were the one that used that argument in the first place in a thread containing Tsunade and Sasori.

Personally, I'd rather have used Kisame's absorbing abilities as a counter to the Iron Sand. As we've seen, Samehada is able to absorb the chakra out of fast, incoming attacks, rendering them almost completely useless [
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] The same logic could have been applied to the incoming Iron Sand attacks, which would have turned the attack into nothing more than a bit of Iron Dust falling on Kisame's chest, without damaging him much at all. In the case of the larger attacks, dodging them wouldn't be much of a problem, as they don't possess the same speed as the other attacks do.

The next was a bit shaky too, since you seemed to have forgotten about some of the attacks of the Iron Sand, including the Iron Sand Drizzle for example, which does also not take a long time to form at all.
The first part was also a bit off, as the clones and sharks don't reform canonically, at least not if I remember right. If I'm mistaken, correct me.

Aside from that, the third part of your post was a great one. Kisame's large scale Suiton attacks would definitely serve as an effective counter to Sasori's poison, and would also make it more difficult to control the puppets. Good points.
 
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