【NB Debate Tourney: Dr.Proof vs.Negative Knight】

[FoxSikes]

oh lawl, nah , this is a debate match for a tournament

im saddened i thought i amde good counter arguments too "____"

 

[Negative Knight]

Spoiler

In The Beginning.. Sasori vs Kisame

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In the beginning, Sasori would most likely have to take care of the problem at hand; Samehada. This chakra eating symbiotic sword is the main problem for Sasori, taking care of this weapon is the first step into pressuring Kisame, and ultimately defeating him in the midst of battle. How exactly will Sasori counter Samehada:

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Samehada has shown properties into showing signs of being alive (eating chakra, disdainful reactions to Katon, favor over another host etc.) enabling me to propose that Samehada in fact is alive, and of course reacts with its host;

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Now that the establishment of Samehada being alive is presented, I can go on with my counter against it:

Sasori was very adept in poison formally developing a poison in which killed his victim in three days, with paralysis as a side effect,

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. Kisame has been shown to expose Samehada's bodily features very often (against Gai, and Bee etc.) thus, leaving Samehada open for wounds, or in general exposure to Sasori's lethal poison.

Due to Sasori starting in Hiruko this gives him an even more advantage as every technique he possesses while using Hiruko is poison covered (

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):

Kisame has also been seen to block attacks using Samehada I believe (Kisame's more over a tank). So due to Kisame's speed disadvantage, and not knowing about Sasori's abilities in this fight he'd have no other way of countering other than blocking which would be Samehada's, and most likely his own downfall.

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)

Kisame is simply cornered by poison, along with Samehada being paralyzed and dying (within 3 days) due to it being that of an organism.

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---

* Underlined text are manga page links.
* This is my introductory argument.
​

​

Negating the effectiveness of poison​

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You said it yourself, Kisame and Samehada posses a symbiotic relationship. They feed off eachother's chakra reserves when either of them is in need. Samehada's reliance on Kisame has been displayed through the fact his sword eventually abandoned him for a shinobi who possessed higher chakra reserves than he did. The symbiotic nature of the sword granted the pair many abilities in battle including: The ability to dispel Genjutsu, cellular regeneration, chakra sensing and the absorption of chakra based attacks.

Now this cellular regeneration is chakra based but can be utilized from either of Kisame's gargantuan chakra reserves or Samehada's personal store of chakra which is arguably as vast as Kisame's due to the sword's symbiotic nature. When either of them is harmed, by whatever means they sap chakra from their partner to restore their own vitality.

The mechanism poison works by binding to the cells, depriving them of oxygen and eventually killing them. However, Kisame's regeneration seems to work on one of the two possibilities.

1) Causing radical splitting of healthy cells to replace dead/faulty ones
2) Using chakra as a means of treating cells

Kisame being hit with a Lethal Lariat and recovering with the use of Samehada

Spoiler

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The first one is far more plausible and seems to resemble Tsunade's regeneration (Creation Rebirth). Now look at how both methods of regeneration work. Both of them rely on utilizing chakra from a foreign source to the body itself, with Kisame having Samehada and Tsunade possessing sealed way chakra to be used in emergencies only.

The fact that poison is the induced death of cells means it acts like any other wound. Poisoning can be treated with antidotes which effectively neutralize them whilst grievous wounds such as the one suffered by Kisame, would prove to be fatal for 99% of shinobi. What's intriguing is, a few moments after coming into contact with his sword's hilt, he was newly renewed as if the battle started there and then.

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(Bottom Panel), can you possibly imagine the effect this regeneration would have if he was in contact with it all along ? How long would of that wound lasted ? A second ? Maybe two ? Neither. It leads me to believe Samehada would begin regenerating Kisame as the wound was dealt, rendering it a futile endeavor to attempt to harm Kisame.

Now, you’re whole argument is based around poisoning Samehada rather than Kisame which is a smart move, but again, easily countered. The unique symbiotic relationship between himself and his sword means they feed off eachother’s chakra. If Kisame is able to call on his sword’s chakra reserves to regenerate him, his sword should be able to do the same. How do I know ?

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, particularly Sameahda's grievously harmed body.

-Post 1 of 3-​

 

[Shura]

Now I can post.

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Sasori is badass, don't let me down DrProof

 

[Negative Knight]

Negating the effectiveness of linear attacks and Iron Sand​

A large portion of Sasori's arsenal is composed of

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e.g. weapons constructed of Iron Sand, which can be evaded with movement alone. His Iron Sand spears, spikes and blocks intended to crush his opponents were seen on several occasions to be avoided without much difficulty by Sakura/Chiyo.

With poison-based and linear attacks posing no threat to Kisame, Sasori will have to resort to his most powerful offensive technique, Iron Sand World Order. Whilst it seems Kisame has no counter, he's infact one of the best equipped ninja to deal with this technique. Here's an extract of my Sasori vs Itachi thread:

Due to being a product of magnetism's repulsive forces, it acts in such a way that can't be anticipated by anyone not even the user themselves. The forces interact in several ways, most likely producing a uniquely different shape every time effectively negating even the best of reflexes. Ordinary acts can be anticipated due to following some sort of linear pattern with each use but magnetism's sporadic nature completely negates this, at a simple turn an offensive can come out of nowhere.

Sakura's ability to survive the technique wasn't down to Chiyo regardless of what is said. Despite getting scratched multiple times she protected herself against being completely impaled. Simply matching this feat would be enough for Kisame and Samehada to survive this attack. With poison becoming a non-factor in this fight, being scathed however many times wouldn't pose a problem to Kisame or his sword.

-Post 2 of 3-​

 

[Negative Knight]

Completely out of his Depth ​

Stacking on the pressure: Clones and simple constructs of water ​

Kisame's avid use of water clones in his battles allows him to overwhelm his opponents by attacking from all sides. Considering his monstrous chakra reserves, each clone possessing 1/10th of the user's chakra would make these clones formidable to say the least. With only 30% of his chakra, Kisame was able to rival the whole of Team Gai and fight on par with them even after creating clones. Kisame with 100% chakra creating clones would truly be a force to be reckoned with.

Furthermore, his use of water sharks and such who are capable of reforming once hit would leave Sasori on the defensive from the very beginning. Reforming from any and every of Sasori's physical attacks (needles and such) would mean his clones/sharks could pass through every line of Sasori's defense. Hiruko would prove to be a useless defense and he would instantly have to resort to using Sandaime Kazekage.

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Wearing down Sasori's arsenal: Large Scale Suiton Attacks ​

Kisame was almost unparalleled in magnitude when it came to Water Release techniques except by a select few including Tobirama. He was shown at many instances to summon large bodies of water using his chakra alone because of his massive chakra reserves. This allowed him to execute Water Release techniques that would overwhelm the opponent due to the sheer magnitude of his techniques and alter the entire battlefield, warping the very terrain in his favour as his Samehada Fusion Mode has been shown to move extremely fast whilst submerged in water.

Flooding the whole arena would give Kisame the terrain-based advantage and allow him to use most (if not all) of his techniques which require a water source. On a body of water, Kisame is the equivalent of Gaara in a desert. Offensives can from every literally every direction, with the user being prone to attack even where they stand. The ability to form as little as a single shark to 1000 sharks acts as a perfect testament to how devastating Kisame with a water source is.

However, even without a water source its been shown Kisame is able to form large bodies of water with his attacks such as Exploding Colliding wave, serving the double purpose of assaulting Sasori and further supplementing his own fighting style. In Hiruko, Sasori has no defense to large scale attacks such as these and this would force him to abandon his armour. However, using Iron Sand as a defense to protect himself against large waves of water would serve only to wash the poison off the sand, leaving Sasori to resort to brute force, something his opponent far outclasses him in.

His trump card: Water Prison + Sameahda Fusion Mode​

Kisame is also able to expand on his shark like appearance by fusing with his sword Samehada to become half-man, half-shark. He completely merges with Samehada which doing so causes him to grow fins and webbed hands that allow him to move through water with considerable ease. Kisame also receives some of Samehada's abilities while in this form, such as being able to extend spikes from his body for offense, and absorbing chakra when others come into direct contact with him, as well as the ability to track chakra.

Kisame's water dome shows he's truly the superior opponent in this fight for a whole multitude of reasons. Firstly, the speed advantage he possess in the water dome couldn't be more one-sided. His shark-like transformation makes him unsurpassed in water whilst the Sasori struggles to move around in such a dense medium. Furthermore, trying to navigate a puppet underwater is impossible. Its maneuverability would be hampered to the extent Kisame could dance around any attacks thrown at him. The moment the water dome surfaces, all of Sasori's poison-based attacks are washed clean and dilute into the vast expanse of the dome, becoming too weak to pose any sort of harm to Kisame's body.

Now with the established speed advantage, Kisame is free to blitz his opponent and rapidly drain him of his chakra. Due to his chakra sensing abilities granted by the dome he would decipher Sasori's core is the store of all his chakra, allowing him to make that part of his body his main focal point for attacks. Before doing any of this, Kisame would have to get around Sasori's puppet(s), leading him to first drain the chakra strings connecting it and Sasori. With Sasori losing control of his puppet, his statement to Chiyo couldn't be any more true in this situation. "A puppet user is nothing without their puppets". With Sasori losing control of his puppets, it becomes a battle between a plastic man and a shark in its domain. With all odds stacked against him, Sasori is quickly drained of all his chakra and left as a lifeless doll sinking to the bottom of a man-made ocean.

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-Post 3 of 3-​

 

[DrProof]

Requesting Till The 16th of April. This argument is getting heated.

 

[Negative Knight]

Requesting Till The 16th of April. This argument is getting heated.

Prepare to be blown out of the water . Alright, I'll stop with my water puns >_>

 

[Tragic Nous]

Requesting Till The 16th of April. This argument is getting heated.

Extension granted.

 

[DrProof]

Spoiler

Negating the effectiveness of poison​

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You said it yourself, Kisame and Samehada posses a symbiotic relationship. They feed off eachother's chakra reserves when either of them is in need. Samehada's reliance on Kisame has been displayed through the fact his sword eventually abandoned him for a shinobi who possessed higher chakra reserves than he did. The symbiotic nature of the sword granted the pair many abilities in battle including: The ability to dispel Genjutsu, cellular regeneration, chakra sensing and the absorption of chakra based attacks.

Now this cellular regeneration is chakra based but can be utilized from either of Kisame's gargantuan chakra reserves or Samehada's personal store of chakra which is arguably as vast as Kisame's due to the sword's symbiotic nature. When either of them is harmed, by whatever means they sap chakra from their partner to restore their own vitality.

The mechanism poison works by binding to the cells, depriving them of oxygen and eventually killing them. However, Kisame's regeneration seems to work on one of the two possibilities.

1) Causing radical splitting of healthy cells to replace dead/faulty ones
2) Using chakra as a means of treating cells

Kisame being hit with a Lethal Lariat and recovering with the use of Samehada

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

The first one is far more plausible and seems to resemble Tsunade's regeneration (Creation Rebirth). Now look at how both methods of regeneration work. Both of them rely on utilizing chakra from a foreign source to the body itself, with Kisame having Samehada and Tsunade possessing sealed way chakra to be used in emergencies only.

The fact that poison is the induced death of cells means it acts like any other wound. Poisoning can be treated with antidotes which effectively neutralize them whilst grievous wounds such as the one suffered by Kisame, would prove to be fatal for 99% of shinobi. What's intriguing is, a few moments after coming into contact with his sword's hilt, he was newly renewed as if the battle started there and then.

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(Bottom Panel), can you possibly imagine the effect this regeneration would have if he was in contact with it all along ? How long would of that wound lasted ? A second ? Maybe two ? Neither. It leads me to believe Samehada would begin regenerating Kisame as the wound was dealt, rendering it a futile endeavor to attempt to harm Kisame.

Now, you’re whole argument is based around poisoning Samehada rather than Kisame which is a smart move, but again, easily countered. The unique symbiotic relationship between himself and his sword means they feed off eachother’s chakra. If Kisame is able to call on his sword’s chakra reserves to regenerate him, his sword should be able to do the same. How do I know ?

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, particularly Sameahda's grievously harmed body.

-Post 1 of 3-​

Sasori's Poison In Depth

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Indeed you've made a keen analysis on Sasori's poison however, you've forgotten a key factor within your rebuttal: You never decline the fact that Kisame/Samehada are hit with poison.

This was your downfall in this specific rebuttal you see as the effected targets of

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in which if they are shortly

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To further more deprive your "since Kisame can perform cellular regeneration, Samehada is able to as well" as an incorrect statement: "Samehada is a symbiont correct; but hasn't shown to manipulate chakra the same as Kisame".

Samehada is simply a chakra storage, the symbiotic weapon absorbs, and transfers chakra to Kisame when he is in need of

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. However, claiming that Samehada can receive replenishment from Kisame's chakra capacity solely without some kind of fusion of the two is incorrect as we haven't seen it canonically. We have on the other hand seen with the fusion of Kisame in which Samehada progressed in recovery; chakra absorption due to the cohesive manor in which they both became one would explain as to why

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I find it odd that

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within fusion with Samehada, possibly proving that Samehada healed over time instead of "replenished with Kisame's chakra". Kisame as I've stated would be cornered by poison nonetheless in this situation as well..​

Spoiler

Negating the effectiveness of linear attacks and Iron Sand​

A large portion of Sasori's arsenal is composed of

You must be registered for see links

e.g. weapons constructed of Iron Sand, which can be evaded with movement alone. His Iron Sand spears, spikes and blocks intended to crush his opponents were seen on several occasions to be avoided without much difficulty by Sakura/Chiyo.

With poison-based and linear attacks posing no threat to Kisame, Sasori will have to resort to his most powerful offensive technique, Iron Sand World Order. Whilst it seems Kisame has no counter, he's infact one of the best equipped ninja to deal with this technique. Here's an extract of my Sasori vs Itachi thread:



Sakura's ability to survive the technique wasn't down to Chiyo regardless of what is said. Despite getting scratched multiple times she protected herself against being completely impaled. Simply matching this feat would be enough for Kisame and Samehada to survive this attack. With poison becoming a non-factor in this fight, being scathed however many times wouldn't pose a problem to Kisame or his sword.

-Post 2 of 3-​

In The Midst -- Sasori progresses

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Incorrect. You've stated that Sasori's Iron Sand was evaded by Sakura/Chiyo with no difficulty, that is false beyond comprehension. Let's take it first into thought that

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this is a key factor as Chiyo has a "4" in speed, the exact same speed a Kisame. However what gave the edge to Chiyo within this battle was her puppet's chakra shield:

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You state that poison based linear attacks won't have any effect on Kisame, while you also stated that his attacks are slow.. Yet again another false claim:

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That is beyond fast. The only way in which Chiyo had covered Sakura, and herself from being killed against this attack was by

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. This isn't the case for Kisame as he would have no definite way of stopping such a repeated assault as Sasori has been shown to

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enabling him to assault Kisame repeatedly without down time whatsoever causing Kisame to ultimately be poisoned then killed and/or killed rapidly due to the progressive Iron Sand bullets.

You again state that poison is a non factor here yet we don't understand how fast the deterioration of cells are, and to add to the fact there is

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of which Kisame does not possess. We can also infer that Sasori's poison contains heavy metals in which destroy the users cells.​

Spoiler

Completely out of his Depth ​

Stacking on the pressure: Clones and simple constructs of water ​

Kisame's avid use of water clones in his battles allows him to overwhelm his opponents by attacking from all sides. Considering his monstrous chakra reserves, each clone possessing 1/10th of the user's chakra would make these clones formidable to say the least. With only 30% of his chakra, Kisame was able to rival the whole of Team Gai and fight on par with them even after creating clones. Kisame with 100% chakra creating clones would truly be a force to be reckoned with.

Furthermore, his use of water sharks and such who are capable of reforming once hit would leave Sasori on the defensive from the very beginning. Reforming from any and every of Sasori's physical attacks (needles and such) would mean his clones/sharks could pass through every line of Sasori's defense. Hiruko would prove to be a useless defense and he would instantly have to resort to using Sandaime Kazekage.

You must be registered for see images

Wearing down Sasori's arsenal: Large Scale Suiton Attacks ​

Kisame was almost unparalleled in magnitude when it came to Water Release techniques except by a select few including Tobirama. He was shown at many instances to summon large bodies of water using his chakra alone because of his massive chakra reserves. This allowed him to execute Water Release techniques that would overwhelm the opponent due to the sheer magnitude of his techniques and alter the entire battlefield, warping the very terrain in his favour as his Samehada Fusion Mode has been shown to move extremely fast whilst submerged in water.

Flooding the whole arena would give Kisame the terrain-based advantage and allow him to use most (if not all) of his techniques which require a water source. On a body of water, Kisame is the equivalent of Gaara in a desert. Offensives can from every literally every direction, with the user being prone to attack even where they stand. The ability to form as little as a single shark to 1000 sharks acts as a perfect testament to how devastating Kisame with a water source is.

However, even without a water source its been shown Kisame is able to form large bodies of water with his attacks such as Exploding Colliding wave, serving the double purpose of assaulting Sasori and further supplementing his own fighting style. In Hiruko, Sasori has no defense to large scale attacks such as these and this would force him to abandon his armour. However, using Iron Sand as a defense to protect himself against large waves of water would serve only to wash the poison off the sand, leaving Sasori to resort to brute force, something his opponent far outclasses him in.

His trump card: Water Prison + Sameahda Fusion Mode​

Kisame is also able to expand on his shark like appearance by fusing with his sword Samehada to become half-man, half-shark. He completely merges with Samehada which doing so causes him to grow fins and webbed hands that allow him to move through water with considerable ease. Kisame also receives some of Samehada's abilities while in this form, such as being able to extend spikes from his body for offense, and absorbing chakra when others come into direct contact with him, as well as the ability to track chakra.

Kisame's water dome shows he's truly the superior opponent in this fight for a whole multitude of reasons. Firstly, the speed advantage he possess in the water dome couldn't be more one-sided. His shark-like transformation makes him unsurpassed in water whilst the Sasori struggles to move around in such a dense medium. Furthermore, trying to navigate a puppet underwater is impossible. Its maneuverability would be hampered to the extent Kisame could dance around any attacks thrown at him. The moment the water dome surfaces, all of Sasori's poison-based attacks are washed clean and dilute into the vast expanse of the dome, becoming too weak to pose any sort of harm to Kisame's body.

Now with the established speed advantage, Kisame is free to blitz his opponent and rapidly drain him of his chakra. Due to his chakra sensing abilities granted by the dome he would decipher Sasori's core is the store of all his chakra, allowing him to make that part of his body his main focal point for attacks. Before doing any of this, Kisame would have to get around Sasori's puppet(s), leading him to first drain the chakra strings connecting it and Sasori. With Sasori losing control of his puppet, his statement to Chiyo couldn't be any more true in this situation. "A puppet user is nothing without their puppets". With Sasori losing control of his puppets, it becomes a battle between a plastic man and a shark in its domain. With all odds stacked against him, Sasori is quickly drained of all his chakra and left as a lifeless doll sinking to the bottom of a man-made ocean.

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-Post 3 of 3-​

In The End.. Sasori Triumphs!

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Kisame's shark reforming was only shown within the anime, thus it isn't canonical from my knowledge. Kisame's Suiton clones/sharks are countered quite easily; I believe you're overrating his Suiton prowess in this variety of tacticals. Suiton clones aren't that durable, a simple Iron Sand manipulation would destroy the majority of the overrated based Suiton clones.

To counter the basic large scale suiton: Sasori due to The Third Kazekage's Iron Sand can take on many properties; a shield, a wall, etc. Any large scale Suiton that aren't in relation to Kisame's dome would be

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Remember this statement:

Kisame seeks to overwhelm his opponents with massive amounts of water, what does that do against Iron Sand? Doton > Suiton for the sole reason its a solid element and dissipates the waves, Iron Sand would fall under the same category since water can't soak into it.

---

I'm going to end this here, and now:

Countering Water Prison + Samehada Merge ​

You might remember this as well :

As for Water dome, Sasori doesn't need to breathe, all of his poision would soak into the water and the immediately vicinity around him becomes lethal for anyone to enter. Samehada Fusion mode means Kisame breathes through gills, wouldn't he simply take in the poison as well resulting in his own demise.

That quote itself in which you provided a while back is all that is needed to dispute your argument for Kisame's Water Dome/Samehada fusion. The poison in which Sasori would emit would cause

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spreading through the water.

Osmosis:

• Slow change in concentration: the diffusion of a solvent through a semipermeable membrane from a dilute to a more concentrated solution.
• Gradual absorption: the gradual, often unconscious, absorption of knowledge or ideas through continual exposure rather than deliberate learning.

Kisame when fused with Samehada uses gills to breathe (as any shark in water does) thus, Kisame passively absorbs the contents in the water inhabiting his circulatory system paralyzing him, and killing him within three days.

Your Samehada healing Kisame is futile to bring up as of now in this scenario as the paralysis is instant, while also with the introduction to the poison Kisame would have no time to break away from Samehada to receive "replenishment".

Sasori triumphs this match-up.

---

*Underlined Red are Manga Scans.
*This is my rebuttal.
*Most likely won't get to counter; school, and working out today.
​

​

 

[DrProof]

Thanks for not letting me down DrProof =D

Not really supposed in this thread while the debate is still in play. However, I may be wrong as the deadline has ended.

 

[Negative Knight]

Not really supposed in this thread while the debate is still in play. However, I may be wrong as the deadline has ended.

Requesting a final extension until the 18th.

 

[Tragic Nous]

Requesting a final extension until the 18th.

Extension granted.

 

[Negative Knight]

Spoiler

Sasori's Poison In Depth

---

Indeed you've made a keen analysis on Sasori's poison however, you've forgotten a key factor within your rebuttal: You never decline the fact that Kisame/Samehada are hit with poison.

This was your downfall in this specific rebuttal you see as the effected targets of

You must be registered for see links

in which if they are shortly

You must be registered for see links

To further more deprive your "since Kisame can perform cellular regeneration, Samehada is able to as well" as an incorrect statement: "Samehada is a symbiont correct; but hasn't shown to manipulate chakra the same as Kisame".

Samehada is simply a chakra storage, the symbiotic weapon absorbs, and transfers chakra to Kisame when he is in need of

You must be registered for see links

. However, claiming that Samehada can receive replenishment from Kisame's chakra capacity solely without some kind of fusion of the two is incorrect as we haven't seen it canonically. We have on the other hand seen with the fusion of Kisame in which Samehada progressed in recovery; chakra absorption due to the cohesive manor in which they both became one would explain as to why

You must be registered for see links

I find it odd that

You must be registered for see links

within fusion with Samehada, possibly proving that Samehada healed over time instead of "replenished with Kisame's chakra". Kisame as I've stated would be cornered by poison nonetheless in this situation as well..​

In The Midst -- Sasori progresses

---

Incorrect. You've stated that Sasori's Iron Sand was evaded by Sakura/Chiyo with no difficulty, that is false beyond comprehension. Let's take it first into thought that

You must be registered for see links

this is a key factor as Chiyo has a "4" in speed, the exact same speed a Kisame. However what gave the edge to Chiyo within this battle was her puppet's chakra shield:

You must be registered for see links

You state that poison based linear attacks won't have any effect on Kisame, while you also stated that his attacks are slow.. Yet again another false claim:

You must be registered for see links

That is beyond fast. The only way in which Chiyo had covered Sakura, and herself from being killed against this attack was by

You must be registered for see links

. This isn't the case for Kisame as he would have no definite way of stopping such a repeated assault as Sasori has been shown to

You must be registered for see links

enabling him to assault Kisame repeatedly without down time whatsoever causing Kisame to ultimately be poisoned then killed and/or killed rapidly due to the progressive Iron Sand bullets.

You again state that poison is a non factor here yet we don't understand how fast the deterioration of cells are, and to add to the fact there is

You must be registered for see links

of which Kisame does not possess. We can also infer that Sasori's poison contains heavy metals in which destroy the users cells.​

In The End.. Sasori Triumphs!

---

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Kisame's shark reforming was only shown within the anime, thus it isn't canonical from my knowledge. Kisame's Suiton clones/sharks are countered quite easily; I believe you're overrating his Suiton prowess in this variety of tacticals. Suiton clones aren't that durable, a simple Iron Sand manipulation would destroy the majority of the overrated based Suiton clones.

To counter the basic large scale suiton: Sasori due to The Third Kazekage's Iron Sand can take on many properties; a shield, a wall, etc. Any large scale Suiton that aren't in relation to Kisame's dome would be

You must be registered for see links

Remember this statement:

---

I'm going to end this here, and now:

Countering Water Prison + Samehada Merge ​

You might remember this as well :

That quote itself in which you provided a while back is all that is needed to dispute your argument for Kisame's Water Dome/Samehada fusion. The poison in which Sasori would emit would cause

You must be registered for see links

spreading through the water.

Kisame when fused with Samehada uses gills to breathe (as any shark in water does) thus, Kisame passively absorbs the contents in the water inhabiting his circulatory system paralyzing him, and killing him within three days.

Your Samehada healing Kisame is futile to bring up as of now in this scenario as the paralysis is instant, while also with the introduction to the poison Kisame would have no time to break away from Samehada to receive "replenishment".

Sasori triumphs this match-up.

---

*Underlined Red are Manga Scans.
*This is my rebuttal.
*Most likely won't get to counter; school, and working out today.
​

​

Slicing your argument to ribbons ​

A decent counter yet lacking in many respects. Kisame would more than capable of dodging Sasori's attacks as shown when he was capable of keeping up with Gai even with a few of the gates unlocked. His basic speed would be more than enough to avoid Hiruko's trap mechanisms especially with the stated range of the fight. Being in Akatsuki, it seems each of the members possessed a fundamental level of knowledge on one another. This is shown to be true when

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, implying he knew of their immortality and what it entailed. The same could be said about Kisame having knowledge of Sasori's poisoned-drenched weaponry, causing him to remain cautious throughout the whole fight and evade every attack by whatever means. Another tactic he could possibly employ is using clones to fight his opponent in close-range whilst he provides long-range support to prevent risking being scratched by even one of Sasori's attacks. Their ability to liqeufy and survive against any physical attacks would allow them to easily close the gap and come within short range of the puppeteer, exposing his severe weakness. Once in close-range, Kisame's clones could re-use a tactic utilized by Kisame against Team Gai, which involves trapping Sasori in an extremely dense prison of water. The prison of water would prevent even the slightest of movements, stopping Sasori controlling Sandaime Kazekage through moving his fingers. Once trapped and defensless, Kisame could land a fatal hit through various means

Furthermore, dodging the attack via movement isn't Kisame's only option in dealing with Sasori. Unlike Kisame, Sakura and Chiyo had no elemental affinities or tools to block Sasori's attacks except using her puppets. Whilst her puppets were a suggestible defense for avoiding Hiruko's traps, its use was negated once he unveiled his 3rd Kazekage Puppet and hence Iron Sand. The Iron Sand was shown to be capable of

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, preventing any maneuverability and therefore relinquishing its defensive use to Chiyo as the puppet could no longer move to intercept successive attacks. Unfortunately for Sasori, Kisame is capable of manipulating Water Release on a scale like no other. In response to Hiruko's attacks, he could spew a stream of water, create water sharks or utilize other constructs of water to clash with them, wash off the poison and knock them off their original trajectory and therefore keeping Kisame unscathed.

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In dealing with Iron Sand, Kisame could simply take advantage of its various weaknesses. On numerous occasions its been shown that

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and come together compared to Gaara's sand, making it much slower in preparation for an attack. This becomes even more apparent through Sasori's usage of Iron Sand as he

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rather than fluid manipulation similar to Gaara and the Fourth Kazekage. Despite the Fourth Kazekage manipulating his gold dust through the same means as Sasori, it leads me to believe as a puppet that Sandaime Kazekage is physically incapable of fluid manipulation of his Iron Sand due to the nature of puppetry. As a direct result of this, Sasori cannot in fact use Iron Sand as a means of aerial elevation, he can't form waves, shields and domes of Iron Sand to fight on par with the scale of Kisame's Suiton and his manipulation of the 3rd Kazekage's Sand is obviously limited by the nature of puppetry, meaning his usage of the the potentially dangerous tool is greatly hampered. You can use doubtful claims such as Iron Sand breaking the sound barrier and such, but all of that is negated against the fact the attack requires much preparation time in compensation. In the time Sasori prepares bullets of Iron Sand, Kisame could easily have created an immense wave of sand which dwarfs his opponent's attack entirely. Regardless of what Iron Sand offensive is thrown Kisame's way, the time of coagulation is enough for him to launch his own suiton-based attack, thus deflecting any and all of Sasori's attacks.

Thus far I've established nothing in Sasori's arsenal is "undodgeable" and so possess no threat to Kisame. To further reinforce my argument I'll quote a good friend of mine

Sasori's Aerial Misconception


This accusation keeps sticking out to me the most in all of your counters, "Sasori gaining distance far in the air".. This is an incorrect statement, as it was never shown in the manga that Sasori could "fly" or "gain distance far in the air" so saying anything relating to such relevance is false, and inaccurate. The "wings" that were located on Sasori's back those were not used for a fly-like maneuver, but for increased shredding capabilities as seen here.

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Also, to furthermore dismiss this "Sasori can fly debut" the rope in which was used to allow him to swiftly glide toward Chiyo in a timely manner hasn't showed the stability, or furthermore has shown any feat of allowing Sasori to obtain flight to that of high ranges. Basically, the rope + wing combo was for decimation at a short-mid range.

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It hasn't been shown canonically for Sasori to manipulate Iron Sand in such a way and therefore is a terrible argument to employ. With that, Sasori literally possess no counter for Kisame's large scale suiton attacks and is pretty much a sitting duck waiting to be devoured by a menacing shark.

Beyond the Fourth Wall​

Once Hiruko reaches the peak of its effectiveness (either through being broken or relinquished by Sasori himself), Sasori would now possess the common weakness of puppeteers his Hiruko puppet sought to destroy. He would be vulnerable in close range and unable to fight his opponent. Kisame's fighting style naturally includes closing the gap between himself and his opponent and engaging them in close quarters. Once he does this through the various means available to him (clone feints, movement, a ride-able wave of water), Sasori would become more than powerless against his foe.

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would inevitably result in the chakra strings connecting himself and the 3rd Kazekage to vanish, stopping further manipulation of his puppet and leaving him almost powerless to act. With no time to re-attach his chakra strings and launch an attack, its more than likely he would resort to using himself. However, in such close-range the situation wouldn't change significantly. His deployable flamethrowers would be absorbed by Samehada and converted into Kisame's own stamina, his poison rigged-tools wouldn't act fast enough to intercept Kisame's kenjutsu offensives and his puppet body would prove to be useless in Taijutsu. One glaring disadvantage of unveiling himself to be a human puppet would display his core, his center of chakra and the only living part of him which remains. Such a concentrated quantity of chakra would more than offset Samehada and alert Kisame to such a weakness. As a result, his future attacks would be centered around the area containing his core, each swing whether it connects, is blocked or narrowly misses will gradually sap chakra out of a defenseless Sasori.

Blown out of the water​

The quote utilized by me was obviously written for a specific purpose. In that thread I was supporting the underdog and so constructing whatever argument available to me. The reality is, very few people can effectively counter the water dome once its fully constructed. You speak of the poison seeping into the water in the vicinity around Sasori yet focus little on my point concerning it diluting into the vast expanse of the structure.

I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of dilution which initiates the process of making a chemical weaker or less concentrated. Now look at the construction of the water dome,

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. This is exactly when all of Sasori's poison-drenched tools will become cleansed of harmful chemicals. With the poison-drenched weapons being cleaned before Kisame's in the area of effect, the principle of dilution will dictate that it will eventually evenly distribute itself along the massive entirety of the dome, weakening into the extent it becomes negligible in potency.

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[DrProof]

Slicing your argument to ribbons ​

A decent counter yet lacking in many respects. Kisame would more than capable of dodging Sasori's attacks as shown when he was capable of keeping up with Gai even with a few of the gates unlocked. His basic speed would be more than enough to avoid Hiruko's trap mechanisms especially with the stated range of the fight. Being in Akatsuki, it seems each of the members possessed a fundamental level of knowledge on one another. This is shown to be true when

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, implying he knew of their immortality and what it entailed. The same could be said about Kisame having knowledge of Sasori's poisoned-drenched weaponry, causing him to remain cautious throughout the whole fight and evade every attack by whatever means. Another tactic he could possibly employ is using clones to fight his opponent in close-range whilst he provides long-range support to prevent risking being scratched by even one of Sasori's attacks. Their ability to liqeufy and survive against any physical attacks would allow them to easily close the gap and come within short range of the puppeteer, exposing his severe weakness. Once in close-range, Kisame's clones could re-use a tactic utilized by Kisame against Team Gai, which involves trapping Sasori in an extremely dense prison of water. The prison of water would prevent even the slightest of movements, stopping Sasori controlling Sandaime Kazekage through moving his fingers. Once trapped and defensless, Kisame could land a fatal hit through various means

Furthermore, dodging the attack via movement isn't Kisame's only option in dealing with Sasori. Unlike Kisame, Sakura and Chiyo had no elemental affinities or tools to block Sasori's attacks except using her puppets. Whilst her puppets were a suggestible defense for avoiding Hiruko's traps, its use was negated once he unveiled his 3rd Kazekage Puppet and hence Iron Sand. The Iron Sand was shown to be capable of

You must be registered for see links

, preventing any maneuverability and therefore relinquishing its defensive use to Chiyo as the puppet could no longer move to intercept successive attacks. Unfortunately for Sasori, Kisame is capable of manipulating Water Release on a scale like no other. In response to Hiruko's attacks, he could spew a stream of water, create water sharks or utilize other constructs of water to clash with them, wash off the poison and knock them off their original trajectory and therefore keeping Kisame unscathed.

You must be registered for see images

In dealing with Iron Sand, Kisame could simply take advantage of its various weaknesses. On numerous occasions its been shown that

You must be registered for see links

and come together compared to Gaara's sand, making it much slower in preparation for an attack. This becomes even more apparent through Sasori's usage of Iron Sand as he

You must be registered for see links

rather than fluid manipulation similar to Gaara and the Fourth Kazekage. Despite the Fourth Kazekage manipulating his gold dust through the same means as Sasori, it leads me to believe as a puppet that Sandaime Kazekage is physically incapable of fluid manipulation of his Iron Sand due to the nature of puppetry. As a direct result of this, Sasori cannot in fact use Iron Sand as a means of aerial elevation, he can't form waves, shields and domes of Iron Sand to fight on par with the scale of Kisame's Suiton and his manipulation of the 3rd Kazekage's Sand is obviously limited by the nature of puppetry, meaning his usage of the the potentially dangerous tool is greatly hampered. You can use doubtful claims such as Iron Sand breaking the sound barrier and such, but all of that is negated against the fact the attack requires much preparation time in compensation. In the time Sasori prepares bullets of Iron Sand, Kisame could easily have created an immense wave of sand which dwarfs his opponent's attack entirely. Regardless of what Iron Sand offensive is thrown Kisame's way, the time of coagulation is enough for him to launch his own suiton-based attack, thus deflecting any and all of Sasori's attacks.

Thus far I've established nothing in Sasori's arsenal is "undodgeable" and so possess no threat to Kisame. To further reinforce my argument I'll quote a good friend of mine



It hasn't been shown canonically for Sasori to manipulate Iron Sand in such a way and therefore is a terrible argument to employ. With that, Sasori literally possess no counter for Kisame's large scale suiton attacks and is pretty much a sitting duck waiting to be devoured by a menacing shark.

Beyond the Fourth Wall​

Once Hiruko reaches the peak of its effectiveness (either through being broken or relinquished by Sasori himself), Sasori would now possess the common weakness of puppeteers his Hiruko puppet sought to destroy. He would be vulnerable in close range and unable to fight his opponent. Kisame's fighting style naturally includes closing the gap between himself and his opponent and engaging them in close quarters. Once he does this through the various means available to him (clone feints, movement, a ride-able wave of water), Sasori would become more than powerless against his foe.

You must be registered for see links

would inevitably result in the chakra strings connecting himself and the 3rd Kazekage to vanish, stopping further manipulation of his puppet and leaving him almost powerless to act. With no time to re-attach his chakra strings and launch an attack, its more than likely he would resort to using himself. However, in such close-range the situation wouldn't change significantly. His deployable flamethrowers would be absorbed by Samehada and converted into Kisame's own stamina, his poison rigged-tools wouldn't act fast enough to intercept Kisame's kenjutsu offensives and his puppet body would prove to be useless in Taijutsu. One glaring disadvantage of unveiling himself to be a human puppet would display his core, his center of chakra and the only living part of him which remains. Such a concentrated quantity of chakra would more than offset Samehada and alert Kisame to such a weakness. As a result, his future attacks would be centered around the area containing his core, each swing whether it connects, is blocked or narrowly misses will gradually sap chakra out of a defenseless Sasori.

Blown out of the water​

The quote utilized by me was obviously written for a specific purpose. In that thread I was supporting the underdog and so constructing whatever argument available to me. The reality is, very few people can effectively counter the water dome once its fully constructed. You speak of the poison seeping into the water in the vicinity around Sasori yet focus little on my point concerning it diluting into the vast expanse of the structure.

I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of dilution which initiates the process of making a chemical weaker or less concentrated. Now look at the construction of the water dome,

You must be registered for see links

. This is exactly when all of Sasori's poison-drenched tools will become cleansed of harmful chemicals. With the poison-drenched weapons being cleaned before Kisame's in the area of effect, the principle of dilution will dictate that it will eventually evenly distribute itself along the massive entirety of the dome, weakening into the extent it becomes negligible in potency.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see images

Will counter today. After I finish my homework. This will be the finale. Be prepared bro. Requesting this final rebuttal Tragic Nous.

 

[Tragic Nous]

Request granted...

 

[DrProof]

Extension Request: 10 pm today (the same day "friday" as my other extension just need more time due to my schedule, and this is my last extension)

I've got football workouts, and school today. You may deny this request if this debate has gone on to long. Great rebuttal NK *_*

 

[Negative Knight]

You started the debate, i'm determined to end it -_-. Expect a counter once you post xD

 

[Wesobi]

I would like to point out one small thing. Before making such tournaments, make sure you have permission to say that "comments are considered spam". They are not until you actually have a moderator's blessing/permission/what ever.

This time I'll comply and trash any "spam", but next time ask for permission and don't just assume we'll conveniently pass by and manage your threads because you made rules yourself. Just a friendly reminder, not meant in a hostile way.

 

[DrProof]

Dammit. My computer battery went out currently on my cell phone. I won't be making a rebuttal to NK's argument. So this is the end of our debate.

 

[GwemBaba]

Great debate guys, if all is said and done I shall edit this post at some point.