Hashirama and "Prime" Hiruzen. Shedding light on both fandoms
- Thread starter Vandenre1ch
- Start date
Ace of the fire fist
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Kabuto boasted Hiruzen's strength by saying he was apparently the strongest of the five kage. Impressive but not as impressive as god of shinobi.
He stopped, but lost to Orochimaru. He sacrificed his life in the process. No more said.
Fairy tail > God of shinobi
Just imagine this scenario, and fathom the greatness.
Hashirama and Hiruzen stand along side one another
Konoha shinobi: There's lord third! His immense strength is why he's called the god of shinobi! He's surely a spectacular shinobi, we should be honoured to have him as our leader
Konoha shinobi 2: And there's lord first! I've heard about his abilities, but there's absolutely no way they could be true, just how strong would he be? I think he's strong but not that strong! That would be impossible, just like that sage everyone talks about!
Hiruzen's strength is believable but Hashiramas' isn't? Ha!
I never said his hype doesn't count... come on man. I'm saying you can't say he's above Hashirama when IT'S ALL HYPE. While it's most likely true, no evidence places him above Hashirama. And what places Hashirama above Hiruzen? His arsenal. If I were to ask you to tell me how Hiruzen would defeat Hashirama, all you could do is go back to your hype. When Hashiramas' jutsu actually > Hiruzen :rofl:
Bottom line is, Hashirama has hype, feats and Jutsu
While Hiruzen just has hype and feat. He sacrificed himself. Why he did it isn't important. He did it because he HAD TO DO IT. The only reason he was able to catch Hashirama in BOD is because Hashirama had limited space, due to the barrier the sound four created. Couple this with the fact that he was controlled just adds to Hashiramas' limitation. If it were an open terrain, Hashi could be sky high on his trees, while Hiruzen tries sniffing out a man in an open field :rofl:
Ace of the fire fist
Active member
Thank you.
Oh and no one was able to show me the scans of the first and second databook, where it said Hiruzen is the strongest hokage. And let me tell you something, it doesn't say it in the third databook... If he really was the strongest, why isn't it said in the latest and most recent databook? D
Vandenre1ch
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Ace of the fire fist
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This man gets it! While Madara showcases Hashiramas skills week by week, Hiruzen is kind of forgotton. Sad but true.
I can't rep you man. I have to spread rep first...
He CLEARLY did change his mind in part 2 .. Unless people want to say this is high level jutsu:
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Hashirama is also said to have comparable strength with Tsunade ... And there was a lot of taijutsu in that fight ..
So basically Kishi did change his mind. Had he planned feats and strength this far in the manga Hashirama would have killed Hiruzen with taijutsu alone back in part 1
Ace of the fire fist
Active member
Ah my bad 
I have a tendency to think 95 percent of the base are guys... So I take a lucky guess :ghehe:
I have a tendency to think 95 percent of the base are guys... So I take a lucky guess :ghehe:
You dont know what hiruzen can do in his prime. You dont know how powerful his jutsu's were or what jutsu's he knew. So for you to say someone else is stronger than him is improbable. Its fine if you wanna say " I feel like hashirama has displayed more powerful jutsu". That fine to say because he has, and we never seen hiruzen in his prime. But to completely knock off a characters abilities because you havent seen them, but there has been mention about it in the manga, is biased and unfair to that character.
Until you know fully what Prime Hiruzen is capable of, you shouldnt knock him.
Especially when there are statements that clearly say that his past self or prime is stronger.
SuperSayin
Member
haha no im not talking directly about shuriken, i just meant to use it as an example.
Ace of the fire fist
Active member
And you shouldn't overrate him when you HAVEN'T seen his abilities. Works both ways eh? I judge based on what I've seen and that outmatches anything I've seen from Hiruzen. Simple logic my friend. Crimson Trickster actually hit the nail on the head, someone who gets it. The fact that we've seen Hashiramas' jutsu is why I say these things. So yeah... Hashirama!
Sage mode Tobi
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Ace of the fire fist
Active member
You seem upbeat and cool... I like you.
Because fire is capable of burning and destroying wood. His doton would be useless, especially since his KKG requires doton.
SuperSayin
Member
? he's not overrating him, he's using logic that his younger self is stronger than his older self. Simple, no?
SuperSayin
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Ace of the fire fist
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Omnipotent
Banned
SharinganUser1
Active member
In regards to the strength of Hiruzen/Prime Hiruzen vs. Hashirama, I'd like to make a few points that will hopefully be considered non-biased.
First, both the abilities of Hiruzen and Hashirama were considered legendary, even mystical for Hashirama. The manga only proved Hashirama's power through the use of mokuton by Madara. Otherwise, everyone would have been left wondering what Hashirama could have done. In his prime, Hiruzen was considered the strongest of all hokages. This was spoken to by King Enma.
Unfortunately, Hiruzen's main showing was in his old age. Many will considered the fight won, or lost, based on the techniques used. Both the Hashi and Tobi were considered amazing individuals. But they only showcased few techniques during the battle, when obviously they knew more. Consider that they were given a "kill command" by Orochimaru. Therefore, one can they they were performing "as they pleased". Hiruzen was said to have mastered all the techniques of the leaf, with the exclusion of blood-line techniques. That means he could use them all. That does not mean he was able to. Hiruzen displayed few techniques during the fight. This was due to his advanced age and low stamina. But, more than anything, he felt great sadness at having to face his former teachers. He simply didn't want to harm them, regardless of the edo tensei. All participants fought under handicaps.
So, back to the powers of Hiruzen and Hashirama. It cannot be speculated that Madara has displayed all of Hashirama's abilities. He's displayed only what he knows, or is capable of performing. Hiruzen, as shown, did not display all that he knew. It will remain pointless conjecture until a flashback is presented showing Hiruzen at his full potential.
With that being said, here is an exerpt from the Naruto Wiki for Hiruzen:
Abilities
Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi in history, so much so that he was admired as the God of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime and was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had. Even in his old age, he was also said to be the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death. Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to hold his own against Orochimaru and two former Hokage without losing his composure. Even in his old age, his chakra was noted for being very strong, causing a dense effect on the atmosphere when released; furthermore, he was known for having immense reserves of chakra in his youth. He was also the longest living and longest reigning Hokage. Hiruzen also had keen senses, being able to track down the former Hokage under Hashirama Senju's Bringer-of-Darkness Technique.
Ninjutsu
Hiruzen was also called The Professor (プロフェッサー, Purofessā), due to his mastery of all forms of shinobi combat, and his vast knowledge of techniques, purportedly knowing all the techniques within Konoha. In the anime, even Danzō, Hiruzen's life-long rival, openly acknowledged the Hokage's sheer prowess in utilising any technique as unsurpassed. His title also came from creating a considerable arsenal of original techniques; one of which was the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique. With this technique, he could create a thousand clones of a single thrown shuriken in an instant to overwhelm the opponent with the extreme difficultly in evading them all. This method also meant that he didn't have stock up on a lot of shuriken. To watch over the village, he would use the Telescope Technique, allowing him to observe others through his crystal ball over long distances. Despite his diminished reserves of chakra in his old age, he also showed great chakra control, needing only the minimum amount of chakra to use each technique.
Please, discuss...
First, both the abilities of Hiruzen and Hashirama were considered legendary, even mystical for Hashirama. The manga only proved Hashirama's power through the use of mokuton by Madara. Otherwise, everyone would have been left wondering what Hashirama could have done. In his prime, Hiruzen was considered the strongest of all hokages. This was spoken to by King Enma.
Unfortunately, Hiruzen's main showing was in his old age. Many will considered the fight won, or lost, based on the techniques used. Both the Hashi and Tobi were considered amazing individuals. But they only showcased few techniques during the battle, when obviously they knew more. Consider that they were given a "kill command" by Orochimaru. Therefore, one can they they were performing "as they pleased". Hiruzen was said to have mastered all the techniques of the leaf, with the exclusion of blood-line techniques. That means he could use them all. That does not mean he was able to. Hiruzen displayed few techniques during the fight. This was due to his advanced age and low stamina. But, more than anything, he felt great sadness at having to face his former teachers. He simply didn't want to harm them, regardless of the edo tensei. All participants fought under handicaps.
So, back to the powers of Hiruzen and Hashirama. It cannot be speculated that Madara has displayed all of Hashirama's abilities. He's displayed only what he knows, or is capable of performing. Hiruzen, as shown, did not display all that he knew. It will remain pointless conjecture until a flashback is presented showing Hiruzen at his full potential.
With that being said, here is an exerpt from the Naruto Wiki for Hiruzen:
Abilities
Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi in history, so much so that he was admired as the God of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime and was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had. Even in his old age, he was also said to be the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death. Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to hold his own against Orochimaru and two former Hokage without losing his composure. Even in his old age, his chakra was noted for being very strong, causing a dense effect on the atmosphere when released; furthermore, he was known for having immense reserves of chakra in his youth. He was also the longest living and longest reigning Hokage. Hiruzen also had keen senses, being able to track down the former Hokage under Hashirama Senju's Bringer-of-Darkness Technique.
Ninjutsu
Hiruzen was also called The Professor (プロフェッサー, Purofessā), due to his mastery of all forms of shinobi combat, and his vast knowledge of techniques, purportedly knowing all the techniques within Konoha. In the anime, even Danzō, Hiruzen's life-long rival, openly acknowledged the Hokage's sheer prowess in utilising any technique as unsurpassed. His title also came from creating a considerable arsenal of original techniques; one of which was the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique. With this technique, he could create a thousand clones of a single thrown shuriken in an instant to overwhelm the opponent with the extreme difficultly in evading them all. This method also meant that he didn't have stock up on a lot of shuriken. To watch over the village, he would use the Telescope Technique, allowing him to observe others through his crystal ball over long distances. Despite his diminished reserves of chakra in his old age, he also showed great chakra control, needing only the minimum amount of chakra to use each technique.
Please, discuss...
You obviously didn't read everything I said. DRS also had another purpose, if Hiru failed to kill Orochimaru, he would at least make sure that Oro couldn't summon Hiru afterwards, so in that way he also protected Konoha, since his death, could just have made it even worse. Truthfully that makes the use of DRS even more useful in the given situation. A shinobi chooses his death, is a shinobi that is free, isn't that what Neji meant?
Besides if you think about, Hashirama uses that darkness technique, but he probably knew that it would "help" Hiru, since he got good senses for smell etc.. So it's likely had a little help there, Oro just thought his edos would handle in the darkness. But what they can't see they can't defend against.
I never said Hiruzen could beat Hashi or Tobirama in the first place, btw, I always agreed with the fact, that at least Hashirama was stronger.
My point just is that no matter, how you try to justify it, you can't change peoples opinions on this. This is not a matter, of who is smarter or more rational thinking, it depends what kind of feelings you have for the manga, and especially, when it comes to Hiruzen. I personally like him a lot, and I do see him as Konohas strongest hokage.
However, in my world, strength is not determined from who beats who. And I have the feeling, Kishi sees it the same way. So it's fully justified that Hirzuen was the strongest hokage, but not the strongest in a 1 vs 1 fight.