Kakashi wasn't distracted

[ShaneEyyy]

This thread will be fairly long, so I'll try to shorten it down a lot. Please read this or you will disagree completely and think I'm good looking. Mainly, the stuff italicized are the important parts, but to get a full understanding, please read all. If you think you're very logical, really focus on this.

Basically some people say, "Kakashi only lost to Zabuza by getting caught in the Water Prison because he was distracted by the rest of Team 7. If the rest of Team 7 weren't there he'd destroy Zabuza like he showed in the 2nd battle". I will counter every part of this statement.

Kakashi wasn't even distracted, he thought wrong about a lot of things and his strategy was out-smarted by Zabuza's careful tactics.

1.

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As you can see here, Kakashi "thought" Zabuza was coming after him, however Zabuza was going for the others. This was Kakashi's first mistake that led to him being 1 step behind.

2.

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Here, Kakashi "thinks" his strategy has worked, thinking he has won the match and the match is over. However, Kakashi is very wrong and I'll explain why in my next argument.

3.

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Zabuza even explains it here but I'll elaborate. Kakashi, even before Zabuza made his attack, already copied his Water Clone technique to distract Zabuza by having the clone talk to the others. Having the clone talk to the others, he basically lured Zabuza in by using the rest of Team 7 as bait for his advantage. So once Zabuza moved in, Kakashi, knowing it was the Water Clone he copied, swooped in and impaled it with a kunai. Zabuza, having extreme enhanced sensing abilities with hearing, sensed more presence (Kakashi's Water Clone) then what he knew were the amount of people there (Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Tazuna, and original Kakashi). Which is how he knew it must be a clone, which he even explained, so he made another Water Clone hidden in the mist while Kakashi was distracted with his first one to maintain having the advantage.

4.

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Here Kakashi is tricked by Zabuza's extra clone because of Zabuza sensing and seeing through Kakashi's strategy, which he explained in the previous scan above, leading to Kakashi being out matched in Taijutsu and being caught in his Water Prison.

5.

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Kakashi then goes on to state that he, "doesn't fall for the same jutsu twice", which means he knows he fell to Zabuza's Water Clone, Mist, Water Prison combo tactics, but it won't happen again now that he knows how it works and what to expect.

I'm saying that even if Team 7 wasn't there, Kakashi would still copy Zabuza's Water Clone to try to fool Zabuza and use clones first like he always does, whether a team is there or not because there's no reason why he wouldn't. Then while Kakashi would fight the Clone, Zabuza would secretly make another one concealed in the mist, throwing off Kakashi and then the same thing will happen, Kakashi get's beat out in Taijutsu then gets kicked in Water, bla bla bla then Water Prison.

Also, since Zabuza thought Water Clones wouldn't fool Kakashi again because of Kakashi's skill, he didn't use them against Kakashi in the mist the second fight. But if it was there first battle, just him and Kakashi, he would have because he always started out with Water Clones. So if Kakashi let Zabuza, who'd be a clone, slice him, the ninja hounds would smell out the clone because Kakashi's blood would be on the clone's blade, not the real Zabuza. Giving Zabuza a surprise attack to defeat Kakashi.

If you say "Kakashi wrecked him after Haku died so he wouldn't of lost 1 on 1" Kakashi later explains in Shippuden during Zabuza's and Haku's resurrection that Zabuza was emotionally effected by Haku's death, which is why he was noted, again by Kakashi to have hesitated to slash through Haku to get to Kakashi, which is why during the War he did manage to slice Kakashi. Kakashi even noted that "Zabuza couldn't fight the way he is now" meaning of how he was touched by Haku.

Yea so sorry this is long, but I basically tried to cover everything. Thoughts please

 

[narutodarkfox]

that's true i agree

 

[EliteKakashi]

This is debunked by the simple fact that if there is no team there, there is no one else for Zabuza to go after, and therefor would/could change the sequence of events.

I've tried explaining this to you several times, but you always seem to forget that point whenever you make a new thread about it.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

This is debunked by the simple fact that if there is no team there, there is no one else for Zabuza to go after, and therefor would/could change the sequence of events.

I've tried explaining this to you several times, but you always seem to forget that point whenever you make a new thread about it.

I have already explained every single possibility, the outcome would be the same. I know for a fact you didn't even read half of my reasoning, probably for the reason you can't counter it.

 

[EliteKakashi]

I have already explained every single possibility, the outcome would be the same. I know for a fact you didn't even read half of my reasoning, probably for the reason you can't counter it.

No, you assumed Kakashi would make the exact same moves he did in the encounter that did happen. There is no guarantee of that. There are numerous different ways it could have unfolded in simply a 1 on 1 situation. It even changes what Zabuza does.

We don't know what would happen. Assuming the exact same thing that happened in a completely different scenario would happen again is ridiculous.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

No, you assumed Kakashi would make the exact same moves he did in the encounter that did happen. There is no guarantee of that. There are numerous different ways it could have unfolded in simply a 1 on 1 situation. It even changes what Zabuza does.

We don't know what would happen. Assuming the exact same thing that happened in a completely different scenario would happen again is ridiculous.

But we can assume because Zabuza, every time he has been shown, has started out with Hidden Mist Jutsu, then proceeded to use Water Clones, so it is evident he would use those moves.

With Kakashi, he has always shown to have start with clones, Shadow or Water, even Choza noted this, so it would be no surprise if Kakashi started with clones. And definitely no surprise if he started with Ninja Hounds because it's the only sensing ability he has left to use.

 

[EliteKakashi]

But we can assume because Zabuza, every time he has been shown, has started out with Hidden Mist Jutsu, then proceeded to use Water Clones, so it is evident he would use those moves.

With Kakashi, he has always shown to have start with clones, Shadow or Water, even Choza noted this, so it would be no surprise if Kakashi started with clones. And definitely no surprise if he started with Ninja Hounds because it's the only sensing ability he has left to use.

Sure, you can assume he starts out with Mist, but everything after that can easily change.

Kakashi went head on with Deva Path after saving Iruka. Only when Deva Path used shinra tensei did he go at him with a raiton clone. Kakashi went head on with Hidan up until he had to intervene in Ino-Shika-Cho's fight with Kakuzu. There are numerous possibilities. Who says once surrounded in mist that Kakashi doesn't use doton to travel underground and get out of it? Who says once surrounded in mist he doesn't surround himself with earth walls, and could leave it to only where Zabuza can hit him from one side? Those are just two possibilities.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

Sure, you can assume he starts out with Mist, but everything after that can easily change.

Kakashi went head on with Deva Path after saving Iruka. Only when Deva Path used shinra tensei did he go at him with a raiton clone. Kakashi went head on with Hidan up until he had to intervene in Ino-Shika-Cho's fight with Kakuzu. There are numerous possibilities. Who says once surrounded in mist that Kakashi doesn't use doton to travel underground and get out of it? Who says once surrounded in mist he doesn't surround himself with earth walls, and could leave it to only where Zabuza can hit him from one side? Those are just two possibilities.

If Kakashi travels underground and leaves, he basically gives up....so that would count as a win for Zabuza. And I agree with you on the Earth Walls, but that is if he knew that technique at the time. Even if he did use those walls, Zabuza would find out when he moves in or if he just hears the walls form then use a large scale suiton tech like Giant Vortex Jutsu and swoop him away, even it is a doton tech it isnt strong enough to hold that Vortex. But we cant argue this because none of this will/did happen. So I agree with you. I was basically trying to say with my thread that the probability of him being distracted is low IMO.

 

[EliteKakashi]

If Kakashi travels underground and leaves, he basically gives up....so that would count as a win for Zabuza. And I agree with you on the Earth Walls, but that is if he knew that technique at the time. Even if he did use those walls, Zabuza would find out when he moves in or if he just hears the walls form then use a large scale suiton tech like Giant Vortex Jutsu and swoop him away, even it is a doton tech it isnt strong enough to hold that Vortex. But we cant argue this because none of this will/did happen. So I agree with you. I was basically trying to say with my thread that the probability of him being distracted is low IMO.

He either gives up or gives him time to ponder up a way to defeat Zabuza in the mist(using his nindogs being the best example, of course). Whatever Kakashi decides. Of course if he had the option I'm sure he'd just go get help from Gai or some shit and just wipe the floor with Zabuza. No reason to do things the hard way when they could be that much easier.

And yeah, there's several ways that situation could work out. As far as being "distracted", maybe it's not the right word. Handicapped may be a better word to use. Kakashi couldn't use every strategy in his arsenal. He was limited to strategies that left him available to protect team 7/Tazuna. It's somewhat similar to Kakashi's fight with Kakuzu and Hidan. He had to keep an eye on Ino/Shika/Cho the entire time, including having to stop the raiton blast that would have destroyed them.

When he has to waste chakra on protecting others and has to limit his strategies to the ones that include him being available to save his comrades, he's not at his best. His fight with Deva and Asura path is a good example. He planned out how to kill both of them by himself, and would have done it had Chouza and Chouji not interfered with his plan. He had Asura stunned and Deva was oblivious to where he was on the battlefield. He could have ended Deva's life then dealt with a paralyzed Asura. He thought them arriving would have saved him chakra, but it wound up getting him "killed" in the long run.

 

[AirWind]

The chain of reaction will changed based on situation, there is no way Kakashi will fight in that groupies manner if he fights with zabuza alone.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

He either gives up or gives him time to ponder up a way to defeat Zabuza in the mist(using his nindogs being the best example, of course). Whatever Kakashi decides. Of course if he had the option I'm sure he'd just go get help from Gai or some shit and just wipe the floor with Zabuza. No reason to do things the hard way when they could be that much easier.

And yeah, there's several ways that situation could work out. As far as being "distracted", maybe it's not the right word. Handicapped may be a better word to use. Kakashi couldn't use every strategy in his arsenal. He was limited to strategies that left him available to protect team 7/Tazuna. It's somewhat similar to Kakashi's fight with Kakuzu and Hidan. He had to keep an eye on Ino/Shika/Cho the entire time, including having to stop the raiton blast that would have destroyed them.

When he has to waste chakra on protecting others and has to limit his strategies to the ones that include him being available to save his comrades, he's not at his best. His fight with Deva and Asura path is a good example. He planned out how to kill both of them by himself, and would have done it had Chouza and Chouji not interfered with his plan. He had Asura stunned and Deva was oblivious to where he was on the battlefield. He could have ended Deva's life then dealt with a paralyzed Asura. He thought them arriving would have saved him chakra, but it wound up getting him "killed" in the long run.

I actually completely agree with you on that. But really what it comes down to is that if some of Kakashi's strategies were limited because of the rest of Team 7, the strategies that could possibly defeat Zabuza 1 on 1, we don't know if Zabuza's mist would limit those same strategies or not. Or if his Water Clones could still fool Kakashi if used. This is basically all theory and assumptions, something that can't be well debated.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

The chain of reaction will changed based on situation, there is no way Kakashi will fight in that groupies manner if he fights with zabuza alone.

However, the signs of Kakashi's miscalculations and the moves he used, similar to moves he always uses during battles can be, to some extent used to assume the outcome would be the same. I have described everything in the thread description.

 

[EZQ]

we will never know how a 3 tomoe kakashi vs zabuza would go, because all those battles weren't 1v1, in the first zabuza had a little advantaje, then when zabuza was an edo kakashi had the advantaje, but i agree on the thread i think zabuza defeats 3tomoe kakashi 6/10 times

 

[Omnipotent]

This thread will be fairly long, so I'll try to shorten it down a lot. Please read this or you will disagree completely and think I'm good looking. Mainly, the stuff italicized are the important parts, but to get a full understanding, please read all. If you think you're very logical, really focus on this.

Basically some people say, "Kakashi only lost to Zabuza by getting caught in the Water Prison because he was distracted by the rest of Team 7. If the rest of Team 7 weren't there he'd destroy Zabuza like he showed in the 2nd battle". I will counter every part of this statement.

Kakashi wasn't even distracted, he thought wrong about a lot of things and his strategy was out-smarted by Zabuza's careful tactics.

1.

You must be registered for see links

As you can see here, Kakashi "thought" Zabuza was coming after him, however Zabuza was going for the others. This was Kakashi's first mistake that led to him being 1 step behind.

2.

You must be registered for see links

Here, Kakashi "thinks" his strategy has worked, thinking he has won the match and the match is over. However, Kakashi is very wrong and I'll explain why in my next argument.

3.

You must be registered for see links

Zabuza even explains it here but I'll elaborate. Kakashi, even before Zabuza made his attack, already copied his Water Clone technique to distract Zabuza by having the clone talk to the others. Having the clone talk to the others, he basically lured Zabuza in by using the rest of Team 7 as bait for his advantage. So once Zabuza moved in, Kakashi, knowing it was the Water Clone he copied, swooped in and impaled it with a kunai. Zabuza, having extreme enhanced sensing abilities with hearing, sensed more presence (Kakashi's Water Clone) then what he knew were the amount of people there (Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Tazuna, and original Kakashi). Which is how he knew it must be a clone, which he even explained, so he made another Water Clone hidden in the mist while Kakashi was distracted with his first one to maintain having the advantage.

4.

You must be registered for see links

Here Kakashi is tricked by Zabuza's extra clone because of Zabuza sensing and seeing through Kakashi's strategy, which he explained in the previous scan above, leading to Kakashi being out matched in Taijutsu and being caught in his Water Prison.

5.

You must be registered for see links

Kakashi then goes on to state that he, "doesn't fall for the same jutsu twice", which means he knows he fell to Zabuza's Water Clone, Mist, Water Prison combo tactics, but it won't happen again now that he knows how it works and what to expect.

I'm saying that even if Team 7 wasn't there, Kakashi would still copy Zabuza's Water Clone to try to fool Zabuza and use clones first like he always does, whether a team is there or not because there's no reason why he wouldn't. Then while Kakashi would fight the Clone, Zabuza would secretly make another one concealed in the mist, throwing off Kakashi and then the same thing will happen, Kakashi get's beat out in Taijutsu then gets kicked in Water, bla bla bla then Water Prison.

Also, since Zabuza thought Water Clones wouldn't fool Kakashi again because of Kakashi's skill, he didn't use them against Kakashi in the mist the second fight. But if it was there first battle, just him and Kakashi, he would have because he always started out with Water Clones. So if Kakashi let Zabuza, who'd be a clone, slice him, the ninja hounds would smell out the clone because Kakashi's blood would be on the clone's blade, not the real Zabuza. Giving Zabuza a surprise attack to defeat Kakashi.

If you say "Kakashi wrecked him after Haku died so he wouldn't of lost 1 on 1" Kakashi later explains in Shippuden during Zabuza's and Haku's resurrection that Zabuza was emotionally effected by Haku's death, which is why he was noted, again by Kakashi to have hesitated to slash through Haku to get to Kakashi, which is why during the War he did manage to slice Kakashi. Kakashi even noted that "Zabuza couldn't fight the way he is now" meaning of how he was touched by Haku.

Yea so sorry this is long, but I basically tried to cover everything. Thoughts please

He was distracted for the last 12 years over his grief/guilt on Obito's "death", and later Rin's own death. If Kakashi used Mangekyou Sharingan, the fight would have still been in Kakashi's favor.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

He was distracted for the last 12 years over his grief/guilt on Obito's "death", and later Rin's own death. If Kakashi used Mangekyou Sharingan, the fight would have still been in Kakashi's favor.

Kakashi couldn't use MS because he didn't have the chakra or the control