The balancing of the elements??

[Sly Anbu]

So I've always been confused by this. The manga implies that:

Fire >> Wind >> Lightning >> Earth >> Water >> Fire

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Now, going by our human logic, Water is definitely stronger than fire. I could understand the logic in lightning > earth, and earth > water to an extent (see point 3).
1. But, how is fire stronger than wind. Yamato states that "if wind is blown into fire, it becomes stronger, even more violent." While I accept that slight wind will accelerate fires, I believe that wind of the same power would put out a fire, correct? Or am I wrong?
2. How is wind stronger than lightning? What in the world can wind do to lightning?? If anything, lightning should be stronger than wind, as it should go right through it.
3. I understand that Gaara's sand is useless against water as it becomes smushy...(see the filler arc with the Takumi/Tayumi Village's weapons). But if this is true, shouldn't water be strong against earth type nature manipulation (btw sand is earth type) and not the other way around?

I draw two conclusions...
A) Either this "elemental circle" is flawed. This is understandable as no human is perfect, or there probably just wasn't a better way to put it.
B) Kishi made it this way on purpose, as it is a fiction regardless.

Just my thoughts... if you think the thread is B.S. just don't read it!!
But anyway, thanks for those who read and gave feedback..

 

[phaco]

I agree with you on some points, but fire > wind is defenitely logic

yeah it's true that if you blow a huge mass of wind on a fire, it will ends, but you can do that with the others elements, water > than fire, but if there is way more fire than water, the water will evaporate...

 

[Avani]

So I've always been confused by this. The manga implies that:

Fire >> Wind >> Lightning >> Earth >> Water >> Fire

You must be registered for see links

Now, going by our human logic, Water is definitely stronger than fire. I could understand the logic in lightning > earth, and earth > water to an extent (see point 3).
1. But, how is fire stronger than wind. Yamato states that "if wind is blown into fire, it becomes stronger, even more violent." While I accept that slight wind will accelerate fires, I believe that wind of the same power would put out a fire, correct? Or am I wrong?
2. How is wind stronger than lightning? What in the world can wind do to lightning?? If anything, lightning should be stronger than wind, as it should go right through it.
3. I understand that Gaara's sand is useless against water as it becomes smushy...(see the filler arc with the Takumi/Tayumi Village's weapons). But if this is true, shouldn't water be strong against earth type nature manipulation (btw sand is earth type) and not the other way around?

I draw two conclusions...
A) Either this "elemental circle" is flawed. This is understandable as no human is perfect, or there probably just wasn't a better way to put it.
B) Kishi made it this way on purpose, as it is a fiction regardless.

Just my thoughts... if you think the thread is B.S. just don't read it!!
But anyway, thanks for those who read and gave feedback..

lol.... I found that hard to believe myself. I thought Yamato (read Kishi/writers) didn't think about that part or deliberately ignored it in favour of their fiction. You can also say that this elemntal theme and their powers are Naruto verse specific.

Wind-fire thing is probably taken form how it works in nature on large scale. The wild fire in Forests gets more dangerous if it gets fanned by fast wind.

But fact remains, that logically it will also change the direction of the fire... ie opposite direction from which the wind is coming and that means Sasuke should get a fire blast on his own face- his jutsu fanned back to him....


According to standard elemnatal concept, Five elements are Fire, Earth, Air, Water and Eather. In chinese tradition Eather is replaced by Wood. Lightenning is rather a combination of Air and Fire and Wood should be air plus water.... these would be no elements at all, if we start disscussing atomic structure...

We see that Naruto universe is made up of five nations named after the elements (using Lightning as the fifth element) and the ninja use jutsus based on their homeland's elements (Fire-style, Water-style, Earth-style, etc) as well as related sub-elements.

It is interesting that Konoha seems to have most variety of elements to use. The main characters belong to the Village hidden in Leave, of the Fire Country so most of their special skills and abilities are fire and plant themed(I read that in Japanese mythology leaves and fire are related). But, we see other types of jutsus as well.

Each manga or anime based on such themes have their typical elemntal concepts. Sometimes even Ice is a separate element, even if logic screams that it should come under Water techniques. Wind is often Noble and fire somehoe strongest. May be people living in wood houses are most fearful of fire. but they don't remember that wind is the most dangerous: it's distructive on its own and increases power of other elements considerably as well. Be it fire, or tsunami(water)....

 

[Hurricane chronicle]

So I've always been confused by this. The manga implies that:

Fire >> Wind >> Lightning >> Earth >> Water >> Fire

Now, going by our human logic, Water is definitely stronger than fire. I could understand the logic in lightning > earth, and earth > water to an extent (see point 3).
1. But, how is fire stronger than wind. Yamato states that "if wind is blown into fire, it becomes stronger, even more violent." While I accept that slight wind will accelerate fires, I believe that wind of the same power would put out a fire, correct? Or am I wrong?
2. How is wind stronger than lightning? What in the world can wind do to lightning?? If anything, lightning should be stronger than wind, as it should go right through it.
3. I understand that Gaara's sand is useless against water as it becomes smushy...(see the filler arc with the Takumi/Tayumi Village's weapons). But if this is true, shouldn't water be strong against earth type nature manipulation (btw sand is earth type) and not the other way around?

I draw two conclusions...
A) Either this "elemental circle" is flawed. This is understandable as no human is perfect, or there probably just wasn't a better way to put it.
B) Kishi made it this way on purpose, as it is a fiction regardless.

Just my thoughts... if you think the thread is B.S. just don't read it!!
But anyway, thanks for those who read and gave feedback..

Actually they dont say that wind will always beat fire. its like this if the wind jutsu is stronger than the fire jutsu then the fire jutsu will be beaten but if the fire jutsu is equal or stronger than the wind jutsu then the fire will get stronger.But i agree on the part about wind beating lighting.
[/B]

 

[Mello-Kun]

So I've always been confused by this. The manga implies that:

Fire >> Wind >> Lightning >> Earth >> Water >> Fire

You must be registered for see links

Now, going by our human logic, Water is definitely stronger than fire. I could understand the logic in lightning > earth, and earth > water to an extent (see point 3).
1. But, how is fire stronger than wind. Yamato states that "if wind is blown into fire, it becomes stronger, even more violent." While I accept that slight wind will accelerate fires, I believe that wind of the same power would put out a fire, correct? Or am I wrong?
2. How is wind stronger than lightning? What in the world can wind do to lightning?? If anything, lightning should be stronger than wind, as it should go right through it.
3. I understand that Gaara's sand is useless against water as it becomes smushy...(see the filler arc with the Takumi/Tayumi Village's weapons). But if this is true, shouldn't water be strong against earth type nature manipulation (btw sand is earth type) and not the other way around?

I draw two conclusions...
A) Either this "elemental circle" is flawed. This is understandable as no human is perfect, or there probably just wasn't a better way to put it.
B) Kishi made it this way on purpose, as it is a fiction regardless.

Just my thoughts... if you think the thread is B.S. just don't read it!!
But anyway, thanks for those who read and gave feedback..

Two words:
ITS
FRIGGIN
FICTION

 

[TC9tails]

hm..this is interesting...ill look into this..

 

[sakum0n0leonmccash]

Two words:
ITS
FRIGGIN
FICTION

STHU. this is a forum to discuss this very fictional story and we can do so as we please don't knock us down for discussing something like this.

 

[zagubus]

Two words:
ITS
FRIGGIN
FICTION

pssst... that's 3 words...

 

[Fastlikesnail]

Logically water is more powerful than any of the other four.

It puts out fire, it corrodes earth, it doesn't conduct electricity (well, pure water doesn't, it's the minerals that are in water that conduct electricity, not the water itself). And you can't really "cut" it with wind natured chakra because it has no shape to begin with.

We couldn't really have that though, could we?

As far as Wind > Lightning, I imagine the logic behind it is: Wind disperses clouds that can cause electrical storms.

 

[Avani]

Logically water is more powerful than any of the other four.

It puts out fire, it corrodes earth, it doesn't conduct electricity (well, pure water doesn't, it's the minerals that are in water that conduct electricity, not the water itself). And you can't really "cut" it with wind natured chakra because it has no shape to begin with.

We couldn't really have that though, could we.

if fire would be big enough, water will be evaporated. it corrodes earth, but the process is too slow if the earth material is hard enough and a lot of water is needed. Wind is a natural eroder as well. If their is enough wind , it will put put fire replace the water force , change its direction. Earth erosion from wind is well know- wind can create deserts- water disappears and earth gets wasted...

By erosio/corrson theory Earth gets hit by all of them... and sustains them all as well constantly creating something new from results....

As far as Wind > Lightning, I imagine the logic behind it is: Wind disperses clouds that can cause electrical storms.

Makes sense and fits in Naruto logic as well.

 

[Chakra]

As far as Wind > Lightning, I imagine the logic behind it is: Wind disperses clouds that can cause electrical storms.

that's more of a preventative explanation. it still doesn't answer why a fuuton rasengan would beat a chidori.

I'm pretty sure Kishi drew his inspiration for the elemental advantages from the 8 trigrams (which is also Naruto's seal). This is widely used for Taichi and Feng Shui and I-Ching. I've been looking at it and reading up on it but still haven't been able to find anything

the only thing I came to was that Wind and Lightning are basically the total opposites of one another and we all knew that.

here's a good site to go to to read up on the 8 trigrams:

You must be registered for see links

 

[Avani]

Interplay of the Five elements: Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Luminance (Eather or wood in other concepts...) I guess Luminance can lossely be replaced with Lightenning (??? nah but it seems )

The Four Cores:
--Earth: all stone, sand, ground, rock mineral focuses, and solid structure
--Water: all pure liquids, non-molten fluids, currents, rain, and fluid structure
--Wind/Air: all gases, gales, vortexes, clouds/vapor/steams (when touched with water), free movement structure
Fire: all heat, flames, combustion, active structure

The Four Fusions:
--Wood (Earth + Water): all plants and plant based material and/or organisms
--Ice (Water + Wind/Air): all cold, freezing, and things born from freezing
--Lightning (Wind/Air + Fire): all electricity, storms, and electric based powers/forces
--Metal (Fire + Earth): all ores, metallic materials and/or organisms, and metal focused energy

The Two Influences:
--Light: encompasses glows, beams, stars, suns, Heaven, Healing, Life, Angels, Goodness, etc.
--Dark: encompasses shadow, illusions, voids, space, black-holes, Hell, Pain, Death, Demons/Devils, Evil, Primal, etc.

The Three Lords:
--Sound: covers sounds, all sonic based forces and techniques, on up to Cosmic Harmonics and Dimensional Frequencies
--Spirit: covers ghosts, life-force itself, Ki/chi forces, emotions, the very spark of life itself, and the true soul--the very thing that separates the truly alive from the false imitations.
--Time: The Past/Present/Future, the flow of time, age, youth, speed, the ever moving force that without which everything stops and then shatters.

Source:

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This link has some interesting combination of elements.

 

[Zenryoku]

yeah ive always found that wierd how is lighting stronger than earth when earth nutralizes it and then earth is stronger against water? wtf water beats earth because it can make it soggy and that and lightning should be strong against water but i think you cant have a circle of elements strength and weakness cause they all have certain strengths against an element:

fire strong against wind
earth strong against lightning and fire
water strong against earth and fire
wind strong against earth
lightning strong against water

 

[Mello-Kun]

I never knocked anyone down
Or didnt intend to o O
Im just saying
Its fiction
So theres no
Logical
Scientific explanation behind anything o O

Damn yoo bad rep giver

 

[Sly Anbu]

STHU. this is a forum to discuss this very fictional story and we can do so as we please don't knock us down for discussing something like this.

You beat me to it. Thankyou..

 

[Sly Anbu]

You guys bring up some very good points..
like earth wouldn't conduct electricity so earth should be > lightning (in a sense), and that Fire can also evaporate water, if stronger, and lightning should be strong against water since it is a fairly good conductor compared to other elements.

All in all, I guess we have to realize that this "elemental circle" could have been written in many different ways, since there are many interpretations to the advantages/ disadvantages for each element. It's just that Kishi chose this path... It's his fiction afterall. I just thought about bringing some logic into it.
Cheers...

 

[phaco]

it should be like pokemon^^

 

[Chakra]

like earth wouldn't conduct electricity so earth should be > lightning (in a sense)

well earth contains minerals, which are conductors for electricity. which is the very same reason why water conducts electricity. pure water isn't a conductor. however, mostly all water contains minerals and that's why it conducts electricity


I may have an answer to your original question...

As the warm oxygen rises it cools and forms clouds. Thunderclouds are formed in areas with intense vegetation such as the tropics and middle latitudes. They can be up to 10 Km in height and have a huge temperature differential between the bottom and the top. This temperature change causes the bottom to be negatively charged (yin) and the middle and top to be positively charged (yang). The negative charge induces a positive charge on the ground directly below the cloud. When the electric field between the lower part of the cloud and the ground reaches a certain voltage, the air molecules ionized along a narrow path and air becomes a conductor. This allows a free flow of charge between the cloud and the ground.

so may be conductors mitigate (lessen) damage by containing the electricity and not letting it go crazy like it wants? (as long as it's ionized air?) just a theory

 

[Izuna Uchiha]

well earth contains minerals, which are conductors for electricity. which is the very same reason why water conducts electricity. pure water isn't a conductor. however, mostly all water contains minerals and that's why it conducts electricity


I may have an answer to your original question...

As the warm oxygen rises it cools and forms clouds. Thunderclouds are formed in areas with intense vegetation such as the tropics and middle latitudes. They can be up to 10 Km in height and have a huge temperature differential between the bottom and the top. This temperature change causes the bottom to be negatively charged (yin) and the middle and top to be positively charged (yang). The negative charge induces a positive charge on the ground directly below the cloud. When the electric field between the lower part of the cloud and the ground reaches a certain voltage, the air molecules ionized along a narrow path and air becomes a conductor. This allows a free flow of charge between the cloud and the ground.

so may be conductors mitigate (lessen) damage by containing the electricity and not letting it go crazy like it wants? just a theory

That's a great explanation!

By creating a vacuum in the air, u break the flow of energy and the potential can dissipate in the huge amount of molecule (wind blow) that the wind creates!

 

[konoha s beautiful beast]

So I've always been confused by this. The manga implies that:

Fire >> Wind >> Lightning >> Earth >> Water >> Fire

You must be registered for see links

Now, going by our human logic, Water is definitely stronger than fire. I could understand the logic in lightning > earth, and earth > water to an extent (see point 3).
1. But, how is fire stronger than wind. Yamato states that "if wind is blown into fire, it becomes stronger, even more violent." While I accept that slight wind will accelerate fires, I believe that wind of the same power would put out a fire, correct? Or am I wrong?
2. How is wind stronger than lightning? What in the world can wind do to lightning?? If anything, lightning should be stronger than wind, as it should go right through it.
3. I understand that Gaara's sand is useless against water as it becomes smushy...(see the filler arc with the Takumi/Tayumi Village's weapons). But if this is true, shouldn't water be strong against earth type nature manipulation (btw sand is earth type) and not the other way around?

I draw two conclusions...
A) Either this "elemental circle" is flawed. This is understandable as no human is perfect, or there probably just wasn't a better way to put it.
B) Kishi made it this way on purpose, as it is a fiction regardless.

Just my thoughts... if you think the thread is B.S. just don't read it!!
But anyway, thanks for those who read and gave feedback..

1.the stronger wind is the stronger fire becomes.rule number one which is known by every fireman.
2.some phisices rule states that.I am sure of it
3.gaara can make his sand so hard that nothing can destroy it(remember chuunin exam: sasuke VS gaara)
so...