Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

[Omnipotent]

I hope you back this up because how do you compare maturity levels? Sure Shikamaru is more mature than most of the characters but he acts pretty dumb in front of girls/woman. Exactly, you said that strength is just a variable term in which case, you just agreed with me that Kakashi's rank of jounin means squat! What does Tsunade's "physical" strength have to do with anything? You are sidestepping the important issue, at least half of the rookies present at the chunin exams were more well rounded and versatile than him for the most part yet he got promoted for just his smarts. If Tsunade is Hokage and Kakashi isn't, it doesn't mean that Kakashi can't just kamui Tsunade in a VS thread. Shikamaru's and Temari's relative strength does matter because it shows us that rank means nothing in this manga. Why bet on Shika, he'd get murdered horribly? Unless you are talking about him as a support character, in which case I still disagree. I'd rather have a character that can protect me and not run out of chakra. Two people are better at what exactly? I don't understand what you are saying. We are only talking about Sasuke VS Kakashi which is a 1 VS 1 fight anyway.

Most of them are since Sasuke, Lee, and Neji have better taijutsu than her. The long ranged ones such as Shikamaru, Temari, Shino and Kankuro have what it takes to put her down. I know what it takes to be a chunin and jounin but neither kid Kakashi nor part 1 Shikamaru fulfilled the categories you just mentioned.

Why are you guys still debating? All three of us here have came to a consensus that Kakashi would most likely win.

 

[Piratefish]

I hope you back this up because how do you compare maturity levels? Sure Shikamaru is more mature than most of the characters but he acts pretty dumb in front of girls/woman.

Shikamaru is easily more mature than the rest of the final round Chuunin Exam takers, maybe even put together. He's smarter than any of them, knows his limits, doesn't try to accelerate his promotion beyond his ability (less likely to be killed), uses a fairly safe fighting style, conceals his true abilities, doesn't make enemies of people without a reason, doesn't have a major personality disorder (HOO boy...) and has realistic, if modest, goals in life. There's probably more, too.

The women Shikamaru knows ARE troublesome (most women are troublesome). Part 1 Ino. 'Nuff said. His mother, who apparently has ALL the control in the Nara marriage, to the point where Shikaku has to resort to arbitrary (and long-distance) actions to have any control at all in his life, despite being clan head. He hangs out with boyhood friends ALL THE TIME (EVERY time he is shown in the manga, I believe, except when ordered not to in the war), leaving Shikamaru alone with HER. Shikaku also was involved in what seems like a plot to make sure the Ino-Shika-Cho was born again (who DOES stuff like that?) and again, it seems like it's to hang out with the guys.

Despite good reason, Shikamaru seems not to harbour any *real* (non-feigned, like Kakashi's laziness) animosity towards women. He's the ONLY character of Naruto's generation who seems able to handle a girlfriend (and she's two years older, also a testament to his maturity). He doesn't disparage Ino, and values her as a friend. He seems to have a good relationship with Kurenai, and didn't exactly vocally proclaim Tsunade as Fifth Hokage as a bad choice.

How is it that Temari picked Shikamaru anyway, as he's a self-proclaimed sexist? How often does that happen, anyway? [Twice, Shikamaru and Madara] Even Orochimaru acknowledges that Tsunade's not weaker because of it, or at least doesn't repeatedly point it out to everyone he meets. And make no mistake, Temari can get together with whoever she wants. Being the Kazekage's oldest daughter/sister grants a fair amount of political power and prestige even to her boyfriend, and she's not exactly considered ugly.

Could it be that Shika's sexism is an affectation? Presumably he did dislike women at one point (again, his mother and Ino) but seems to have stopped doing so. He uses it to make people underestimate him (like Kakashi's perversion and laziness, and his OWN laziness, which is legendary) and to make any women he fights angry and presumably irrational (he fought only girls in the Exams. Perhaps he'd use a different tactic on the guys?).

So, still think Shika's a sexist?

Exactly, you said that strength is just a variable term in which case, you just agreed with me that Kakashi's rank of jounin means squat!

I obviously meant muscle strength. Don't be dumber than you are.

What does Tsunade's "physical" strength have to do with anything? You are sidestepping the important issue, at least half of the rookies present at the chunin exams were more well rounded and versatile than him for the most part yet he got promoted for just his smarts.

Not just his smarts but leadership, judgement and mental stability. Half the Chuunin finalists are certifiably unbalanced, and should seek mental health specialists.

Temari, Kankurou and Gaara might have been promoted on return to Suna, anyway. It wasn't actually their Kage who made the decision not too, and they are suited to be Chuunin in most ways. Plus, Sunagakure needs LOTS of shinobi, FAST, to make up for invasion losses.

If Tsunade is Hokage and Kakashi isn't, it doesn't mean that Kakashi can't just kamui Tsunade in a VS thread.

What does this have to do with anything? Kid Kakashi couldn't do that without succumbing to chakra exhaustion, anyway.

Shikamaru's and Temari's relative strength does matter because it shows us that rank means nothing in this manga. Why bet on Shika, he'd get murdered horribly?

Doubt it.

Unless you are talking about him as a support character, in which case I still disagree. I'd rather have a character that can protect me and not run out of chakra. Two people are better at what exactly? I don't understand what you are saying.

You mentioned Temari coming to Shikamaru's rescue as a testament to her strength, or his weakness. 2v1 in the Tayuya battle.

We are only talking about Sasuke VS Kakashi which is a 1 VS 1 fight anyway.

Yup.

Most of them are since Sasuke, Lee, and Neji have better taijutsu than her.

Taijutsu is not the only field of combat, and coming closer only makes it easier for her to land Mind/Body Switch, which she is more than fast enough to do.

The long ranged ones such as Shikamaru, Temari, Shino and Kankuro have what it takes to put her down.

These she beats close-range, but some of them are tactical fighters and won't go down easy. I still think she'll take most of these.

I know what it takes to be a chunin and jounin but neither kid Kakashi nor part 1 Shikamaru fulfilled the categories you just mentioned.

We disagree on that.

Why are you guys still debating? All three of us here have came to a consensus that Kakashi would most likely win.

But I wanted to win on all fronts.... Also Ice seems like he may be offended by that post where I mercilessly mocked him.

 

[Icelerate]

Shikamaru is easily more mature than the rest of the final round Chuunin Exam takers, maybe even put together. He's smarter than any of them, knows his limits, doesn't try to accelerate his promotion beyond his ability (less likely to be killed), uses a fairly safe fighting style, conceals his true abilities, doesn't make enemies of people without a reason, doesn't have a major personality disorder (HOO boy...) and has realistic, if modest, goals in life. There's probably more, too.

Nah, Sasuke was very mature back than even compared to the likes of Kakashi, Shikamaru, etc. He could hang cool against the likes of Oro and Gaara but he would know his limits but he wouldn't underestimate his opponent either. Shikamaru did make a few enemies in the form of Hidan, Kakuzu, Tayuya, Obito and temporarily Temari. Sasuke knew his limits and at first was willing to surrender to Orochimaru so he too knows his limits. On the other hand, Shika and Kakashi thought they were up to leading a mission alone and if Temari or Minato hadn't shown up for their respective underling, Shika and Kakashi were dead meat. On the other hand, Sasuke would have beat Gaara and Oro (without immortality) but than the Shukaku showed up which was infinitely stronger than any of Shika's or kid Kakashi's opponents and plot required Sasuke not use his cursed seal at that point in time because it gave side effects.

The women Shikamaru knows ARE troublesome (most women are troublesome). Part 1 Ino. 'Nuff said. His mother, who apparently has ALL the control in the Nara marriage, to the point where Shikaku has to resort to arbitrary (and long-distance) actions to have any control at all in his life, despite being clan head. He hangs out with boyhood friends ALL THE TIME (EVERY time he is shown in the manga, I believe, except when ordered not to in the war), leaving Shikamaru alone with HER. Shikaku also was involved in what seems like a plot to make sure the Ino-Shika-Cho was born again (who DOES stuff like that?) and again, it seems like it's to hang out with the guys.

Who? Ino? Temari? I think you are talking about Ino.

Despite good reason, Shikamaru seems not to harbour any *real* (non-feigned, like Kakashi's laziness) animosity towards women. He's the ONLY character of Naruto's generation who seems able to handle a girlfriend (and she's two years older, also a testament to his maturity). He doesn't disparage Ino, and values her as a friend. He seems to have a good relationship with Kurenai, and didn't exactly vocally proclaim Tsunade as Fifth Hokage as a bad choice.

What girl friend? Temari? Well technically she isn't but they will probably pair up when Naruto decides to merge all five villages.

How is it that Temari picked Shikamaru anyway, as he's a self-proclaimed sexist? How often does that happen, anyway? [Twice, Shikamaru and Madara] Even Orochimaru acknowledges that Tsunade's not weaker because of it, or at least doesn't repeatedly point it out to everyone he meets. And make no mistake, Temari can get together with whoever she wants. Being the Kazekage's oldest daughter/sister grants a fair amount of political power and prestige even to her boyfriend, and she's not exactly considered ugly.

Temari picked Shikamaru for what? Well Madara said that weak woman are ugly, weak Senju are even uglier in order to demoralize Tsunade. Well Temari does have a lot of political power compared to other jounin such as Gai/Yamato but they are stronger than her so again rank/political prestige mean nothing.

Could it be that Shika's sexism is an affectation? Presumably he did dislike women at one point (again, his mother and Ino) but seems to have stopped doing so. He uses it to make people underestimate him (like Kakashi's perversion and laziness, and his OWN laziness, which is legendary) and to make any women he fights angry and presumably irrational (he fought only girls in the Exams. Perhaps he'd use a different tactic on the guys?).

Okay I may have to read the data book to find more about Shikamaru's personality. I don't think this is true but if it is, I must have underestimated Shikamaru's psychological warfare. Well I read somewhere that Temari didn't train during the one month period between the prelims and finals because she thought Shikamaru was too weak. If that is the case, I guess Shikamaru's plan worked but I don't think Shikamaru did it on purpose. Even still, Temari would have won the match anyway and moved on to the later rounds to prove she is chunin worthy.

So, still think Shika's a sexist?

I never said he was but I wouldn't want a lazy person like Shikamaru to be a team leader. This all goes back to maturity and kid Kakashi was less mature than kid Sasuke IMO. Still that doesn't matter in this case since kid Kakashi seemed to be have better combat prowessthan kid Sasuke unless Sasuke uses the cursed seal in which case, I hope we both agree that Kakashi loses this one.

I obviously meant muscle strength. Don't be dumber than you are.

I know what you meant but we aren't talking about muscle strength. We are talking about overall fighting prowess and despite Sasuke being a genin, he is on the same level as jounin kid Kakashi in combat prowess. Same with Shikamaru and Temari. Ranks don't mean anything.

Negged for calling me dumb. I did positive rep you before so don't worry too much about it. I may give you rep in the future to compensate.

Not just his smarts but leadership, judgement and mental stability. Half the Chuunin finalists are certifiably unbalanced, and should seek mental health specialists.

Lol Shino, Temari and Sasuke also had smarts and leadership. I'd go on to say that Naruto could make a better chunin too but he lacked power without the Kyubbi which made him an unstable candidate for chunin.

Temari, Kankurou and Gaara might have been promoted on return to Suna, anyway. It wasn't actually their Kage who made the decision not too, and they are suited to be Chuunin in most ways. Plus, Sunagakure needs LOTS of shinobi, FAST, to make up for invasion losses.

Exactly, Kakashi was only promoted to jounin because Konoha lacked a lot of shinobi during those times. No different to Kankuro and Temari being promoted but they actually proved strong and fought against kage levels and such.

What does this have to do with anything? Kid Kakashi couldn't do that without succumbing to chakra exhaustion, anyway.

No what I meant was, despite Kakashi being a jounin, he can kamui kages. Again disproving the fallacious titles mean strength idea.

Doubt it.

Lol if you want, make a thread and I could prove it to you that part 1 Temari>current Shikamaru.

You mentioned Temari coming to Shikamaru's rescue as a testament to her strength, or his weakness. 2v1 in the Tayuya battle.

Temari soloed Tayuya but Temari had full knowledge, Tayuya had none. Even with full knowledge, Shikamaru couldn't kill Tayuya because of Tayuya's CS2 durability so it is a testament to Temari's OPness. Very few non kage level characters can survive such an attack.

Taijutsu is not the only field of combat, and coming closer only makes it easier for her to land Mind/Body Switch, which she is more than fast enough to do.

When I mentioned Sasuke beating non gated Lee, you claimed that because Lee's taijutsu was better, he'd win but now you are saying slow jutus such as mind transfer will be able to hit the likes of Sasuke, Lee and Neji.

These she beats close-range, but some of them are tactical fighters and won't go down easy. I still think she'll take most of these.

Sure think whatever you want. I guess Karin solos Madara.

We disagree on that.
But I wanted to win on all fronts....

Well it is obvious that kid Temari (kiri kiri mae) and kid Sasuke (CS2)>kid Kakashi and kid Shikamaru so despite the "disparity" in intelligence, we all know what it means to be chunin/jounin level in this manga. Power levels are different from actual titles.

 

[Omnipotent]

This... isn't even Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke anymore

 

[Piratefish]

Nah, Sasuke was very mature back than even compared to the likes of Kakashi, Shikamaru, etc. He could hang cool against the likes of Oro and Gaara but he would know his limits but he wouldn't underestimate his opponent either. Shikamaru did make a few enemies in the form of Hidan, Kakuzu, Tayuya, Obito and temporarily Temari. Sasuke knew his limits and at first was willing to surrender to Orochimaru so he too knows his limits. On the other hand, Shika and Kakashi thought they were up to leading a mission alone and if Temari or Minato hadn't shown up for their respective underling, Shika and Kakashi were dead meat. On the other hand, Sasuke would have beat Gaara and Oro (without immortality) but than the Shukaku showed up which was infinitely stronger than any of Shika's or kid Kakashi's opponents and plot required Sasuke not use his cursed seal at that point in time because it gave side effects.

Sasuke in general does keep his cool in combat, but outside of it he's a psychological wreck. With good reason, but even so. "Hanging cool" is not the term I would use to describe his attitude in the battle against Oro, and the Gaara fight cemented his self-made feelings of inferiority regarding Naruto and his rapid growth, which directly contributed his leaving the village in search of power. He also uses a third Chidori, which would have killed him if not for the Curse Seal. "Knowing his limits" is thus arguable if not quite simply wrong. His plans for the future cannot be described as "mature" in any sense of the word (REVENGE!!!) and seems, at least in part 2, to be searching for someone to stop him, to kill him, just so it can all end. At least since Itachi's death.

The "rescuing situation" for Kakashi is slightly different than for Shika, as Minato was RIGHT BEHIND HIM. If you're talking about Minato appearing after Obito "died" and it all went to shit, Obito had died and it had all gone to SHIT. Which is only reasonable, as sending three 12-year-olds on an infiltrationa-and-sabotage mission is a bad idea no matter who those three might be.

So Shikamaru made enemies with Tayuya, Hidan and Kakuzu on the missions where he was SENT TO KILL THEM? How mightily odd. The point was that he doesn't make enemies when he doesn't have to, which seems to be a hobby of Sasuke's (not very mature behavior).

The opponent was always Gaara, not Shukaku. Did Naruto beat SHUKAKU with a headbutt? (Would have been AWESOME). How would Kid Kakashi have fared against Part 1 Gaara, I wonder.

Who?

Who what? I'm talking about Shika's mother for most of this paragraph.

What girl friend?

Temari. They seem fairly close, ridiculously so if they haven't seen each other for years.

Temari picked Shikamaru for what?

As a boyfriend.

Lol this just made up my day. I'll think about it since it does seem interesting.

Please do. Making people think is kinda my goal with all of this.

I never said he was but I wouldn't want a lazy person like Shikamaru to be a team leader.

Lazy, but very competent, and incomparably intelligent. Also seems easy to get along with. I would.

Kishimoto says that if he were a girl, he would date Shikamaru out of all the guys in Naruto. I know, it's pretty weird.

I know what you meant but we aren't talking about muscle strength. We are talking about overall fighting prowess and despite Sasuke being a genin, he is on the same level as jounin kid Kakashi in combat prowess. Same with Shikamaru and Temari. Ranks don't mean anything.

Promotion time is a good indicator of intelligence and potential, though it's not infallible.

Lol Shino, Temari and Sasuke also had smarts and leadership. I'd go on to say that Naruto could make a better chunin too.

None of the three were really impressive apart from Sasuke, who's a basket case. Naruto is above average chuunin level in combat, for sure. He's also really dumb in most situations. I wouldn't say a promotion would be smart.

Exactly, Kakashi was only promoted to jounin because Konoha lacked a lot of shinobi during those times. No different to Kankuro and Temari being promoted but they actually proved strong and fought against kage levels and such.

Kakashi was proven WEAK?

Anyway, I've mentioned this.

It's true that during war people are often ranked up faster in military organizations. However, those who survive tend to be either very competent or very lucky, and in the ninja world where it seems like EVERY shinobi is fairly directly involved in a war I doubt luck would cut it. Additionally, and this is something people don't seem to realize, Kakashi was promoted to Chuunin before the war even began. He became a chuunin at six, Sakumo died when he was seven or so and Sakumo's failed mission seems to have been directly before the Third War began.

No what I meant was, despite Kakashi being a jounin, he can kamui kages.

Well yeah, I guess. He's easily Kage-level at this point in the manga though, and indeed nearly was one.

Lol if you want, make a thread and I could prove it to you that part 1 Temari>current Shikamaru.

Please do, I will heartily endeavor to tear your argument to shreds.

Temari soloed Tayuya but Temari had full knowledge, Tayuya had none. Even with full knowledge, Shikamaru couldn't kill Tayuya because of Tayuya's CS2 durability so it is a testament to Temari's OPness.

Or Shika's limited arsenal and stamina. He doesn't have anything apart from creative use of the Shadow Bind that can hurt her (no wait that couldn't either), and Tayuya used CS PRECISELY BECAUSE he already caught her, placing him at a disadvantage when it comes to repeating his feat. Not that it'll help.

When I mentioned Sasuke beating non gated Lee, you claimed that because Lee's taijutsu was better, he'd win but now you are saying slow jutus such as mind transfer will be able to hit the likes of Sasuke, Lee and Neji.

Lee COULD beat three tomoe Sasuke in pure taijutsu, if he doesn't allow Sasuke ninjutsu. It could go either way, and I said so.

He would beat Sasuke if he was drunk. Erratic movements are hard to predict, even for taijutsu-masters like Kimimaro.

It was you who stated that those three would have to get close, which makes landing Mind Body Switch a LOT easier. At punching range, she can hardly MISS even with her eyes closed. It only requires one seal, one which she has formed many many MANY many times at this point, so casting the jutsu would be quick. And who's to say Mind Transfer hasn't gotten faster over the timeskip, or that she hadn't learned new and faster techniques?

Sure think whatever you want. I guess Karin solos Madara.

Yes, Karin soloing Madara was exactly as unlikely as what I just said.

Well it is obvious that kid Temari and kid Sasuke>kid Kakashi and kid Shikamaru so despite the "disparity" in intelligence, we all know what it means to be chunin/jounin level in this manga. Power levels are different from actual titles.

So you've chaned your position on the victor of the fight? Also directly gone against manga evidence in the case of Temari and Shikamaru?




Who what where?

Who what where why?

Who what where why when?

 

[Piratefish]

This... isn't even Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke anymore

I know, right! So far we've pulled in Orochimaru, Kimimaro, Shikamaru, Temari, Naruto, Tayuya and many more. It's hilarious!

 

[Omnipotent]

I know, right! So far we've pulled in Orochimaru, Kimimaro, Shikamaru, Temari, Naruto, Tayuya and many more. It's hilarious!

I stopped reading it, but that's more than I thought there were.

 

[Piratefish]

I stopped reading it, but that's more than I thought there were.

Alas! Am I the final defender of Kid Kakashi's honor?!

 

[Shirou Emiya]

Kakashi

 

[Icelerate]

Ahh. Thanks for making it more clear for me. Don't worry, I'm only a Tobirama fan(boy within reason).

How can you compare these promotions when they were plot-induced?

Exactly, kid Kakashi being a jounin is plot just like kid Sasuke, kid Neji, kid Temari, kid Gaara not becoming chunin despite the fact they shit on people like Iruka, Mizuki and other fodder chunin with ease.

And Kabuto went on to get a Rasengan in the chest. Am I the only one to think that Sasuke at that point wouldn't have won (well, stalemated) against Kabuto in that battle?

1. Kabuto underestimated Naruto.
2. Kabuto already fought Tsunade and Shizune both of whom were far greater than Naruto.
3. Kabuto couldn't use one of his arms.
4. Despite all this, Kabuto survived the attack but since Naruto's heart chakra network to the heart was cut, even the Kyubbi would be useless. I read it recently in the school library and Kabuto mentioned that by cutting of the heart chakra network, he stopped the Kyubbi from healing him.
5. Sasuke would probably use shuriken and kunai to get up to Kabuto in order to use chidori but he'd get owned by part 1 Kabuto who is very underrated on this forum. Of course this is without plot but with plot, Sasuke would own him just like Naruto since he is faster, smarter and has sharingan.

Does him repeating himself make it more true? Kabuto's penchant for boasting and underestimation of Naruto combine to make about HALF the things he even SAYS demonstratably wrong even two or three PANELS later. Here, let me show you:

Spoiler

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Here's Kabuto saying Naruto can't win since he can't stand. What, exactly, does Naruto proceed to do?

Spoiler

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Here's Kabuto wondering what's happening when Naruto has CLEARLY rammed a Rasengan into his gut. Naruto has showed him the technique before and even taken the trouble to demonstrate how to form it right in FRONT of him. All he had to do to escape would be to LET GO OF A KUNAI, but Kabuto clearly messed up BAD with the superglue that day.

There was a lot of plot in that fight and Kabuto was somewhat restricted. Still Jiraiya told Naruto that Kabuto was no match for him and that creating shadow clones would be useless against such a skilled shinobi. Clearly Sasuke's performance would have been better than Naruto's or maybe even Shizune's.

Spoiler

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Here's Kabuto stating that Naruto has no chance to survive. He later adds the modifier "on his own power", remembering Tsunade is in the area. Naruto might have survived even without her (Kyuubi heals a punctured lung effortlessly).

Actually he wouldn't have. Kabuto cut the chakra network to prevent the Kyubbi from healing it. I don't know where to find the official scans but Kabuto said that even with the Kyubbi, Naruto couldn't have healed from it because he cut of the Kyubbi chakra from Naruto's chakra network in his heart.

You're using someone SAYING NARUTO HAS NO NATURAL TALENT as SERIOUS EVIDENCE!?!?!?

Well HERE'S Orochimaru saying that he doesn't think THERE EXISTS ANYONE IN THE WORLD LESS TALENTED THAN JIRAIYA.

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This proves it's not just the Sharingan that blinds his judgement, and shows where Kabuto inherited his selective idiocy.

Well Jiraiya was drunk but yes, as a kid, he was very weak but he trained hard and became a shrewd, competent and powerful shinobi in the end. I disagree with the sharingan clouding his judgement or else other's wouldn't have praised Sasuke's talents over Naruto's. I'm quite sure Kakashi, Jiraiya, Sakura and many others said that Sasuke was more talented. This is further backed up when people like Rock Lee, Neji and Gaara initially didn't care about Naruto during the prelims but they became more inclined to challenge him to test his ideals. Kankuro was owning Naruto without the use of his puppets. We all know that the Sand Siblings without their respective weapons are fodder level so it is embarrasing that Kankuro did not even need to use puppets to own Naruto. I bet both Temari and Gaara could have soloed Naruto without using wind or sand at that point in time. On the other hand, Sasuke managed to force Kankuro to use his puppet.

So Orochimaru is praising Sasuke for an ability granted solely by his awakening of the Sharingan? Shouldn't he be praising Haku for that? Credit where credit is due, after all.

It takes skill to use the sharingan effectively.

Orochi was standing still AND WAITING FOR SASUKE TO DO STUFF for most of that fight. If "trapping" a mostly stationary target is a praiseworthy achievement, then I just trapped my chair. Glorify me with your accolades. It's mostly stationary because I sometimes move it.

It is praiseworthy since Sasuke never missed his intended target despite the fact that he was under some frightening spell or whatever Oro's scare stare's effects are. Although it was kind of silly to argue for Sasuke owning a Sannin since I admit that the Sasuke that fought Oro would get owned by kid Kakashi low-mid difficulty.

IF OROCHIMARU WASN'T IMMORTAL, KID SASUKE WOULD HAVE BEATEN A SANNIN. Do you even read what you're typing?

Lol I was just joking but what would happen to Oro if he wasn't immortal? He'd be badly hurt. Well actually he would have been extra careful so I just refuted myself to save you the trouble.

So Oro thinks Forest-of-Death-Sasuke is stronger than Killed-His-Clan-Itachi. Tell me more about how he's an objective source. The only proven interaction between Oro and Itachi at this point is when Itachi forced him to cut off his hand and desert Akatsuki. This is probably their only interaction, as Itachi was a nonentity while Oro was still in Konoha, and had barely even joined Akatsuki before Oro turned on him.

No it means that Sasuke's eyes had the potential to surpass Itachi's and those eyes of his are now stronger than Itachi's. It was a foreshadowing which became true recently. Still bare in mind that Oro did not care much about part 1 Kakashi and cared for CE Sasuke so Oro knows that Sasuke has more potential to grow stronger once he reaches Kakashi's age. In other words, Sasuke is bound to be stronger than Kakashi as long as they are of the same age.

Kakashi didn't develop genius as a teenager. It was always present. Kakashi's actions when he has the YELLOW FLASH available as a fall-back are very different than when he doesn't, as he performs admirably even agains several jounin.

You are really, seriously stating that Sasuke is VASTLY superior to Kid Kakashi in intelligence?

No but I think they are equal. Seriously though, if Sasuke was the same age as current Kakashi, they'd be on par with each other in intelligence but Kakashi's experience puts him far above Sasuke. As children, they were probably about the same.

It was shown on panel before them (he's a more important character) but there's no proof it was before or after their respective actions. Sakura didn't need to cheat, how is his achievement more impressive than hers?

Sakura is actually one of the smartest characters in the manga so it isn't that bad if Sasuke was less intelligent compared to her. Still Sasuke managed to figure out the secret when Sakura was oblivious to the whole ploy the proctor made.

Copying someone who seems to know what they're doing is not an intelligence feat. It's exactly what the Sharingan is used for. (MS is slightly different). He would be unable to answer the test if he couldn't get a clear line-of-sight, unlike almost all of the others you mentioned.

Sasuke figured out that cheating was the key to winning and IIRC, Sakura nor Shikamaru were able to figure this out. Ino had to use mind body switch on her team mates to give them the answers because Shikamaru and Chouji had no clue what was going on.

He realized that Naruto would be unable to remember weird poetry. Good job. Honestly, it's more apparent that Orochimaru obviously didn't even REGISTER Naruto at that point if he was unable to realize something like that.

Firstly speaking, the guy that disguised himself as Naruto was some Ame genin with that same mask that Hanzo wears. Sasuke was able to note that that guy's transformation was a bit messed up, something that Sakura wasn't able to notice. For this reason, I believe if Kakashi tried to trick Sasuke, Sasuke would see through and tricks or traps set up by Kakashi.

Yeah, said my piece on this.

No the two scenarios were different and both of them show that Sasuke has keen instincts and selective deducting skills based on character behaviour and outlook. Very few characters in this manga have shown this much skill.

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The two Mist Nin were disappointed that Kakashi killed Rin. We know next to nothing about her. Why were Rin and Kakashi so far afield from Konoha, without any obvious purpose?

Rin could have been an enemy agent. She was highly placed in Konoha (student of the Hokage) and could easily gain access to any number of secrets.

So here's the theory. Rin was a double-agent, either through forced means (kidnapping of family or the like) or through free will. She escapes Konoha with a secret (maybe even the extended information on the Hiraishin) and Kakashi realizes it. Maybe she's been acting off lately, maybe she's been asking weird questions. Maybe he just doesn't want to leave her side after Obito's death. He tracks her, catches her and forces her to reveal the reason why she left. Heartbroken, he is forced to kill her to protect Minato/the village as a whole. With her last breath, she conveys her regret over forcing him to do this, just as the Mist is about to reach them. Kakashi's Mangekyou unlocks from him killing his most precious person in the world.

Nice theory, we'll wait and see if it is true. Until than, Sasuke is the more intelligent of the two.

His point of view has changed drastically, of course he would say something like that. Any of us would say the same thing about our younger selves (perhaps even you will after seeing so many of the errors in your post pointed out). And in any case he's not talking about his intelligence, he's talking about values, life choices.

So has Sasuke's yet people think Sasuke is dumb for his life choices. Still current Kakashi>>>>>>>>>>>>>kid Kakashi when it comes to intelligence so IMO, part 1 Sasuke is on the same level as kid Kakashi.

You are using Obito, calling someone an idiot, as evidence in a versus thread. Kid Obito. Calling someone an idiot.

It's more of an effort to convey that he disagrees with him (about MANY things) than anything else, certainly not with the intent of saying that his intelligence is subpar. Doing so would in effect be calling himself mentally handicapped.

True but didn't Obito and Kakashi made up with each other in the end so I don't understand why Obito would go on about calling Kakashi and idiot. Maybe he was since he didn't realize that Obito survived?

It wasn't, technically, a mistake according to either the Shinobi Rules or Kakashi's own world-view at the time. And since we're talking about Sasuke at about the Valley of the End level, but without the CS, I've no doubt he'd have killed her/him himself.

What do you mean in the bold? The OP didn't specify anything so I'm going to say that CS2 Sasuke>>CS1 Sasuke>2 tomoe Kakashi>3 tomoe Sasuke>>2 tomoe Sasuke>=no sharingan Kakashi>>>no sharingan Sasuke.

Pardon me if I defend my position in the debate, should I begin campaigning on Sasuke's behalf?

Well Sasuke can be quite underrated although he can be overrated sometimes. No you don't have to but defending overrated characters such as Kakashi, Itachi, Minato and Shikamaru is pretty dumb since the fans say that particular character will outsmart the other even though the other character is on a whole other level.

Pardon me if I seem rude, but HAVE YOU EVEN READ THIS THREAD? HOW MANY TIMES HAVE THE STRENGTH LEVELS OF WATER AND SHADOW CLONES BEEN EXPLAINED BY NOW?

Well the more clones a user creates, the weaker they are. Also the more skilled the fighter is, the more skilled his clones will be but not as powerful as the original user. Water and shadow clones are very similar except if a water source is nearby, making water clones takes less chakra than regular shadow clones.

I'm sorry if you are offended by any of this, it's just that a lot of what I've just written has been discussed extensively, and a lot of what you wrote was unreasonable. So I chose humour to keep things fresh for myself and others.

It is okay.

 

[Icelerate]

Sasuke in general does keep his cool in combat, but outside of it he's a psychological wreck. With good reason, but even so. "Hanging cool" is not the term I would use to describe his attitude in the battle against Oro, and the Gaara fight cemented his self-made feelings of inferiority regarding Naruto and his rapid growth, which directly contributed his leaving the village in search of power. He also uses a third Chidori, which would have killed him if not for the Curse Seal. "Knowing his limits" is thus arguable if not quite simply wrong. His plans for the future cannot be described as "mature" in any sense of the word (REVENGE!!!) and seems, at least in part 2, to be searching for someone to stop him, to kill him, just so it can all end. At least since Itachi's death.

Sasuke suffered far more than Shikamaru but Shikamaru's attitude after Asuma's death was just as bad as Sasuke's. Shika's behaviour after he failed the mission had to be calmed by his father and Temari. Sasuke is in a much different situation than Kakashi and Shikamaru and his battles have been much tougher than those two, both physically and psychologically.

The "rescuing situation" for Kakashi is slightly different than for Shika, as Minato was RIGHT BEHIND HIM. If you're talking about Minato appearing after Obito "died" and it all went to shit, Obito had died and it had all gone to SHIT. Which is only reasonable, as sending three 12-year-olds on an infiltrationa-and-sabotage mission is a bad idea no matter who those three might be.

It doesn't excuse the fact that Kakashi lost an eye in that battle. You forgot that Shikamaru, despite being chunin, was the weakest member of his squad. He could probably beat Kiba but the rest would own him.

So Shikamaru made enemies with Tayuya, Hidan and Kakuzu on the missions where he was SENT TO KILL THEM? How mightily odd. The point was that he doesn't make enemies when he doesn't have to, which seems to be a hobby of Sasuke's (not very mature behavior).

No Sasuke was also forced to do what he did for the sake of his clan while Shikamaru selfishly went after Kakuzu and Hidan for the sake of a personal grudge and the village. Family>nation anyday.

The opponent was always Gaara, not Shukaku. Did Naruto beat SHUKAKU with a headbutt? (Would have been AWESOME). How would Kid Kakashi have fared against Part 1 Gaara, I wonder.

Yeah Kakashi would get owned just as hard as Sasuke. Neither had anything on Shukaku at that point in time.

Who what? I'm talking about Shika's mother for most of this paragraph.

Oh okay. Sasuke's father and Itachi were both more strict than Shikamaru's mother.

Temari. They seem fairly close, ridiculously so if they haven't seen each other for years.

They certainly do.

As a boyfriend.

As of now ShikaTema is fanfiction. Not manga cannon but Kishi has given many hints.

Please do. Making people think is kinda my goal with all of this.

Actually to prove your claim that Shikamaru acts aloof to make his female opponents think he is weak and unworthy in order to make them overconfident, you must give me some evidence.

Lazy, but very competent, and incomparably intelligent. Also seems easy to get along with. I would.

Yes Shikamaru was very competent when he was fighting six sound ninja fodder but had to get saved by Asuma. He also showed his competence once again when he fought Tayuya but had to get saved by Temari. After the TS, Shikamaru again displayed his incompetence when he couldn't save the same guy (Asuma) who saved him earlier three years ago. Afterwards, he would have got owned by Kakuzu if Kakashi wasn't there. At least Sasuke brought competent team mates and fought opponents far stronger. The same goes for Temari.

Kishimoto says that if he were a girl, he would date Shikamaru out of all the guys in Naruto. I know, it's pretty weird.

I know that quote but what does that have to do with anything?

Promotion time is a good indicator of intelligence and potential, though it's not infallible.

Okay but that doesn't really matter in a VS thread where we strictly go with feats.

None of the three were really impressive apart from Sasuke, who's a basket case. Naruto is above average chuunin level in combat, for sure. He's also really dumb in most situations. I wouldn't say a promotion would be smart.

Please, Shino and Temari displayed better skills than Shikamaru and both of them would own pre chidori training Sasuke. By the time of the Sasuke Retrieval Arc, Temari, Kankuro and Neji were low jounin level.

Kakashi was proven WEAK?

Anyway, I've mentioned this.

Kakashi is strong, but he is not as strong as his fan boys make him out to be.

Well yeah, I guess. He's easily Kage-level at this point in the manga though, and indeed nearly was one.

Of course, just like all the chunin exam applicants such as Sasuke being chunin level but were classified as genins.

Please do, I will heartily endeavor to tear your argument to shreds.

Oh I could but what location, starting distance, knowledge do you want? Trust me, I have yet to lose in a Temari VS Shikamaru debate.

Or Shika's limited arsenal and stamina. He doesn't have anything apart from creative use of the Shadow Bind that can hurt her (no wait that couldn't either), and Tayuya used CS PRECISELY BECAUSE he already caught her, placing him at a disadvantage when it comes to repeating his feat. Not that it'll help.

Exactly, Shikamaru (a chunin) was getting destroyed by Tayuya who in turn got destroyed by Temari (a genin). In other words, power levels and actual titles are completely different.

Lee COULD beat three tomoe Sasuke in pure taijutsu, if he doesn't allow Sasuke ninjutsu. It could go either way, and I said so.

I agree.

He would beat Sasuke if he was drunk. Erratic movements are hard to predict, even for taijutsu-masters like Kimimaro.[/QUOT
E]
I agree with this as well.

It was you who stated that those three would have to get close, which makes landing Mind Body Switch a LOT easier. At punching range, she can hardly MISS even with her eyes closed. It only requires one seal, one which she has formed many many MANY many times at this point, so casting the jutsu would be quick. And who's to say Mind Transfer hasn't gotten faster over the timeskip, or that she hadn't learned new and faster techniques?

Neji can see chakra and so can Sasuke. Sasuke also has long ranged attacks. Lee might get outsmarted but I think he is too fast for Ino.

So you've chaned your position on the victor of the fight? Also directly gone against manga evidence in the case of Temari and Shikamaru?

No, Shikamaru said that if the fight went on longer, he would have lost anyway. I didn't change my opinion in regards to Kakashi Vs Sasuke if that is what you are asking.

Who what where?

Who what where why?

Who what where why when?

What are you talking about?

 

[shelke]

Your repeated statements of rank not meaning anything (and sometimes that it does) and then following it up with people who've been outside of the ranking system for YEARS seems a bit illogical. I protest Kurenai being refered to as a high-tier jounin, she was stated to just have been promoted and has barely been shown even adequate in combat. And the Mangekyou Sharingan, when the opposing party has no info on it, is a match-finishing move.

Kurnai has a perfect 5 in genjutsu, which actually translates into exceptionally high intellect as this is what this feat depends on. Her stats are excellent, so that's what I am basing my opinions on. Recent promotion and leveling it with her status as a high tier jounin for that time doesn't mean much. Keep this in mind that I'm not comparing her to current Kakashi or Gai. My point is, Rank is a debatable issue, so you should stop bringing it up.

As far as the other points are concerned, then I'm afraid we've reached a deadlock. I would budge and neither would you.

 

[killerman82]

Kakashi wins

 

[Piratefish]

Kurnai has a perfect 5 in genjutsu, which actually translates into exceptionally high intellect as this is what this feat depends on. Her stats are excellent, so that's what I am basing my opinions on. Recent promotion and leveling it with her status as a high tier jounin for that time doesn't mean much. Keep this in mind that I'm not comparing her to current Kakashi or Gai. My point is, Rank is a debatable issue, so you should stop bringing it up.

As far as the other points are concerned, then I'm afraid we've reached a deadlock. I would budge and neither would you.

She was indeed capable enough in genjutsu to the point where Itachi had to use his Sharingan to reverse it, but there are many characters with genjutsu defenses. A recent promotion DOES indicate a lack of experience present in even fodder jounin, which shines through in her fight with Itachi.

 

[Piratefish]

Oh I could but what location, starting distance, knowledge do you want? Trust me, I have yet to lose in a Temari VS Shikamaru debate.

Inside an Elemental Barrier, jagged terrain, during sunset, knowledgeless. Distance 5 meters. Pre-fight banter mandatory.

If you could win this I'd be very impressed.

An answer to your longer post is forthcoming, I'm just fairly bored with this thread.

 

[shelke]

She was indeed capable enough in genjutsu to the point where Itachi had to use his Sharingan to reverse it, but there are many characters with genjutsu defenses. A recent promotion DOES indicate a lack of experience present in even fodder jounin, which shines through in her fight with Itachi.

Kakashi also got stabbed for 72 hours, and Asuma had his eyes closed the whole time. Why does it matter?

 

[Piratefish]

Kakashi also got stabbed for 72 hours, and Asuma had his eyes closed the whole time. Why does it matter?

Itachi was forced to use his Sharingan against Kurenai, and his MS against Kakashi. Asuma must have felt stupid.

Just clarifying things a little.

 

[shelke]

Itachi was forced to use his Sharingan against Kurenai, and his MS against Kakashi. Asuma must have felt stupid.

Just clarifying things a little.

Itachi was never forced by Kakashi into using his MS, he used it on his own. For Kuranei, it's true.

 

[Piratefish]

Itachi was never forced by Kakashi into using his MS, he used it on his own. For Kuranei, it's true.

He needed to leave, and take out Kakashi, before the rest of Konoha's forces arrived. He had little choice but to use Tsukuyomi to subdue Kakashi, so in essence he WAS forced.

 

[shelke]

No he was not. Re-read those pages again. He simply said, 'I''ll show you the true power of the sharingen masters'. Kakashi never forced him to use anything.