obito is stronger than madara

nNoma

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If we're talking Edo Madara, then no I don't think Obito has what it takes to beat him. Even if he's intangible, I don't know if he has a sealing technique. I do think he has a way past Madara's perfect susano'o, but without a way to seal him, he can't win. We don't know the extent of his skill with moukton, because he hasn't used it.

If it was EMS Madara, then I would say Obito has a damn good chance at beating him. But Edo Madara is too much for him.
 

Akatsuki wise guy

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He doesn't have all the requirements and more; he just has the requirements. There are no other requirements outside of possessing Rikudō blood and the Rinnegan (nothing else was indicated, canon). There is no better control than what Obito has currently achieved. They're reviving the Jūbi for crying out loud. It doesn't matter how powerful your chakra is (Nagato didn't have naturally 'powerful' chakra like the Uchihas, he simply had a large quantity of it since he comes from the Senju lineage). Having powerful chakra is not a requirement of using Gedō Mazō.



The Mazō was not powered by 7 Bijuu when Nagato used it. That's why it needed his chakra in order to function.



The Rinnegan is the Rinnegan. It doesn't matter if it was transplanted, since Nagato has shown to be able to control the statue by having it. The fact that Obito has Madara's own eyes is all the more reason to believe there is no difference in who the statue would choose to obey. Kakashi wasn't on Itachi's level because he's not an Uchiha :/ Obito is an Uchiha, and using Dōjutsu comes naturally to him (especially considering he had the potential to awaken the Rinnegan without tranplanting eyes). There is no problem for Uchiha when they transplant other Uchiha Dōjutsu, otherwise EMS users wouldn't be able to use their eyes properly, obviously. It's a shame that you can't present the page which shows what level Madara was using the statue it. "neither have shown to be able to use it on madara's level" - Seriously, where the hell did you see Madara even use the Mazō in a battle situation? This is merely yet another assumption.



You think you do yet, sadly, you don't.



Don't get mad because you got found out.
This is for your first two paragraphs.
And you might say that madara has to get close to do that but you see this.


With that in the mazo Madara can control it through his will or by sending chakra in it to control it just like obito did with the jinchuuriki.


You don't understand what you saw either as the mazo would move to what nagato did meaning by channeling his chakra in he had it in his control. So madara can control it.

First of all by "it" I meant the rinnegan smart one. Second neither obito(who by the way is not even smart enough to use the rinnegan in his battle) and nagato have shown the feats madara has.



(creating life out of nothing)

Sadly I do.

Found out?
 

OnPoint

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This is for your first two paragraphs.
And you might say that madara has to get close to do that but you see this.


With that in the mazo Madara can control it through his will or by sending chakra in it to control it just like obito did with the jinchuuriki.
These black rods can be used by anyone who is using the Rikudō no Jutsu. Madara was the one who created the first set, but they are not exclusive to him. They respond to anyone who who has met the requirements to control Gedō Mazō; be it having Uchiha & Senju DNA (Obito & Madara) or having just the Rinnegan (Nagato). Anyone who can use Gedō (Outer Path) can use it. I feel you have misunderstood what has been shown.




Do you not recall that Nagato was hooked up to such black rods?






And Tobi's;



Obito, Nagato and Madara are all free to use the black rods, though Obito's and Madara's are equally stronger because they both possess the two halves of the Sage.



You don't understand what you saw either as the mazo would move to what nagato did meaning by channeling his chakra in he had it in his control. So madara can control it.
No, Nagato had to sync with Gedō Mazō in order to power it. If what you said was true, Obito would've had to have been pierced by the black rods in order to use the statue; he didn't have to. Madara can controll Gedō Mazō, but nowhere has it been shown or stated that he could seize control of it from someone who has Rikudō Sennin's blood, who has the Rinnegan and who is using the black rods also.

First of all by "it" I meant the rinnegan smart one. Second neither obito(who by the way is not even smart enough to use the rinnegan in his battle) and nagato have shown the feats madara has.



(creating life out of nothing)
They're not Gedō Mazō feats, so they're hardly relevant.

Found out?
You claimed to not say something which in reality you actually had said.

I'm going offline now anyway.
 

arv993

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Neither are the body mods which Kabuto blessed Madara (undying body, limitless chakra, youthful appearance + Rinnegan). So i've no idea why you would even bring that up. Who said Madara can just take control of the Mazō whilst Obito is using it? He has the Rinnegan along with the Rikudō blood aswell. Madara can't make Obito turn tangible - the latter can remain evasive for as long as he pleases, especially considering he can use the near-instant (hand seal-less) Shinra Tensei to defend himself during Kamui's cool down period. This match has stalemate written all over it. There is no counter to Obito's defence outside of plot barriers. You cannot give me a scenario where Madara can overcome an Obito who is simply remaining intangible for 5 minutes at a time whilst using Shinra Tensei inbetween, especially considering that he'd have Gedō Mazō w/the Bijuu laying waste to most of Madara's Mokuton jutsu. Perfect Susano'o cannot swing it's sword in Obito's direction for five minutes straight and totally ignore the threat of the Mazō and the Bijuu. Similarly, Obito cannot warp him because Madara can defend with a Shinra Tensei of his own. Obito cannot take his soul with Ningendō because, once again, this requires him to turn tangible - Shinra Tensei would once again negate such a move. Since Madara has an immortal body, Obito has nothing else in his arsenal capable of stopping him. Neither of the two have any reasonable way of actually defeating the other outside of plot barriers.

The fact of the matter is, Madara is the stronger of the two because plot requires it. Madara is Obito's sensei, Obito is Kakashi's parallel, Madara is the closest to Rikudō Sennin etc. These hypothetical battles take place outside the realms of plot. You cannot imply that Madara would defeat Obito just 'because he's Madara' or 'because he's Obito's sensei' or 'because the manga makes him look like the superior of the two'. That's weak logic, since we may aswell declare Naruto to be unbeatable at this very moment.
Who is to say madara can't take control of the gedo mazo. madara was its initial master and has the senju and uchiha dna as well which is what is needed to control it. Madara too is a user that can control the gedo mazo so its not exclusively tobi's thats bs excuse. in summation its a dead heat battle. And if u want to get technical i can even add all of zetsu army in madara's arsenal as he is their creator and boss even obito states they are clearly madara's men and black zetsu even has madara's will. So its essentially edo madara with his powers that he has shown and u can add zetsus in there as well vs obito with his ms and rinnegan. Both parties can take control of gedo so thats a wild card. Its a dead heat unless madara has counter to tobi's space time but at the same time if he uses zetsus alongside himself is a tough match so i would say tie.

Madara says to obito can control the gedo mazo since has senju and uchiha dna and madara is in the same boat. he too can control the gedo since he meets the same requirement. There is no proof against it. Madara has shoen more impressive feats with his mokuton and can clearly use hashi's dna. gedo mazo is not exclusive to obito in any sense.
 
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OnPoint

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Who is to say madara can't take control of the gedo mazo. madara was its initial master and has the senju and uchiha dna as well which is what is needed to control it. Madara too is a user that can control the gedo mazo so its not exclusively tobi's thats bs excuse. in summation its a dead heat battle. And if u want to get technical i can even add all of zetsu army in madara's arsenal as he is their creator and boss even obito states they are clearly madara's men and black zetsu even has madara's will. So its essentially edo madara with his powers that he has shown and u can add zetsus in there as well vs obito with his ms and rinnegan. Both parties can take control of gedo so thats a wild card. Its a dead heat unless madara has counter to tobi's space time but at the same time if he uses zetsus alongside himself is a tough match so i would say tie.
I never said it was exclusive to Obito. If you read through the comments then you will see that Akatsuki wise guy and I have already discussed this. There is nothing to suggest that Madara can seize the statue from Obito if the latter willingly resists him. They both meet the full requirements for controlling it, with nothing else in the manga influencing how well one can control Gedō Mazō (unless you can post the page which canonically states otherwise). I myself have this match down as a stalemate in any case.
 

Akatsuki wise guy

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These black rods can be used by anyone who is using the Rikudō no Jutsu. Madara was the one who created the first set, but they are not exclusive to him. They respond to anyone who who has met the requirements to control Gedō Mazō; be it having Uchiha & Senju DNA (Obito & Madara) or having just the Rinnegan (Nagato). Anyone who can use Gedō (Outer Path) can use it. I feel you have misunderstood what has been shown.




Do you not recall that Nagato was hooked up to such black rods?






And Tobi's;



Obito, Nagato and Madara are all free to use the black rods, though Obito's and Madara's are equally stronger because they both possess the two halves of the Sage.



No, Nagato had to sync with Gedō Mazō in order to power it. If what you said was true, Obito would've had to have been pierced by the black rods in order to use the statue; he didn't have to. Madara can controll Gedō Mazō, but nowhere has it been shown or stated that he could seize control of it from someone who has Rikudō Sennin's blood, who has the Rinnegan and who is using the black rods also.



They're not Gedō Mazō feats, so they're hardly relevant.



You claimed to not say something which in reality you actually had said.

I'm going offline now anyway.
Okay you don't get it. Madara's WILL is in it meaning a part of his mind is present meaning he can control it like that. And you missed the point of madara's chakra being stronger and overwhelming obito's control. Kinda like how naruto overpowered nagato's control.


And after he obtains control he can use the mazo to do his bidding.

He could control without getting stabbed but getting stabbed meant more control and giving the mazo power as well. Madara would have better control with his strong chakra and his will being in the rod.

Their to show madara's superior rinnegan abilities is that to hard to grasp. Superior rinnegan control can help with him taking control of the mazo.

I don't know what you are talking about.

Bye.
 

Akatsuki wise guy

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I never said it was exclusive to Obito. If you read through the comments then you will see that Akatsuki wise guy and I have already discussed this. There is nothing to suggest that Madara can seize the statue from Obito if the latter willingly resists him. They both meet the full requirements for controlling it, with nothing else in the manga influencing how well one can control Gedō Mazō (unless you can post the page which canonically states otherwise). I myself have this match down as a stalemate in any case.
No I have showed it could.^
 
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arv993

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I never said it was exclusive to Obito. If you read through the comments then you will see that Akatsuki wise guy and I have already discussed this. There is nothing to suggest that Madara can seize the statue from Obito if the latter willingly resists him. They both meet the full requirements for controlling it, with nothing else in the manga influencing how well one can control Gedō Mazō (unless you can post the page which canonically states otherwise). I myself have this match down as a stalemate in any case.
gedo mazo is a summon that follows its master's bidding in this case, both tobi and madara have the means to control it which is senju and uchiha dna. its not like tobi can simply command it and the mazo would simply ignore madara's attempts to control it. It isnt sealed inside tobi like how the nine tails was inside naruto so madara could not get it to obey him. In a similar situation gedo is a summon of madara so he should similar to ninetails situation be able to command it. And thats why its a wild card since both shinobi are able to get access it power.
 

Akatsuki wise guy

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gedo mazo is a summon that follows its master's bidding in this case, both tobi and madara have the means to control it which is senju and uchiha dna. its not like tobi can simply command it and the mazo would simply ignore madara's attempts to control it. It isnt sealed inside tobi like how the nine tails was inside naruto so madara could not get it to obey him. In a similar situation gedo is a summon of madara so he should similar to ninetails situation be able to command it. And thats why its a wild card since both shinobi are able to get access it power.
You tell him! I already told him the technical side as to how madara can control him but he won't bite. We have to wait for his response.
 

romeboii

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because madara can switch from his sharingan to rinnegan while he has 1of each which i doubt he can use all the 6paths power with one eye...FUU AND TORUNE WAS ABLE TO MAKE A PLAN TO HURT HIM EVEN KONAN WAS SO I DOUBT MADARA WOULD FIND IT HARD...Also he may be able to use wood style but not to madara extent since he fought hashirama and knows his techniques and obito does not
 

Akatsuki wise guy

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because madara can switch from his sharingan to rinnegan while he has 1of each which i doubt he can use all the 6paths power with one eye...FUU AND TORUNE WAS ABLE TO MAKE A PLAN TO HURT HIM EVEN KONAN WAS SO I DOUBT MADARA WOULD FIND IT HARD...Also he may be able to use wood style but not to madara extent since he fought hashirama and knows his techniques and obito does not
I have literally said all of this and yet they still think obito would win thanks to his intangibility alone.
 

romeboii

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i really doubt obito can control the gedo mazou better then madara..you forget he has 1rinnegan at any time he cant use his rinnegan abilities at the same time as sharingan madara can switch eyes if obito uses the bijuu madara by himself can defeat them wood dragon susanoo clones then him self can use the power of the rinnegan...obito has not yet shown his rinnegan can do anything other then control the six paths
 

romeboii

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i dont understand this he has 1ability madara cant use so they think he wins how many op jutsu does madara have that obito cant use tons
 

OnPoint

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Okay you don't get it. Madara's WILL is in it meaning a part of his mind is present meaning he can control it like that. And you missed the point of madara's chakra being stronger and overwhelming obito's control. Kinda like how naruto overpowered nagato's control.


And after he obtains control he can use the mazo to do his bidding.

He could control without getting stabbed but getting stabbed meant more control and giving the mazo power as well. Madara would have better control with his strong chakra and his will being in the rod.

Their to show madara's superior rinnegan abilities is that to hard to grasp. Superior rinnegan control can help with him taking control of the mazo.

I don't know what you are talking about.

Bye.
No. Madara only made the black rods out of his will. They do not have his chakra flowing through them - they have the chakra of the person who's conducting Rikudō no Jutsu or controlling Gedō Mazō. The rods aren't alive. Black Zetsu is. Unlike him, they don't have Madara's mind in them. They cannot think. They were simply created from his will, that's all. Madara's chakra isn't flowing through them. And anyone using the 6 paths jutsu can control them, as confirmed by Madara himself.



lol your links having nothing to do with controlling the statue or the mechanics of the black rods. That was simply a reference to Nagato's unusually high chakra levels. Nowhere was it stated that having stronger or more powerful chakra makes the binding stronger. Nowhere. Nagato's was weaker because he only met one requirement (just having the Rinnegan). Madara already said that lacking in one of the requirements means you will not be able to use Gedō Mazō as well as someone who ticks all the boxes.



Obito meets both - he possesses the Rinnegan and has Rikudō blood. Nagato could not use it well without getting stabbed since the statue had no chakra to work with. The empty shell of the ten tails. It needed Nagato's chakra in order to function; getting stabbed has nothing to do with control. That is yet another assumption not backed by anything in the manga. Nothing whatsoever. Nagato could control it without being pierced (not aswell as Obito or Madara, however, since he only has Senju blood), and getting pierced would not improve his level of control. Obito hasn't connected with it via such means and his control is superior to Nagato's. It's clear that possessing the chakra of the 7 Bijuu has allowed the Mazō to function without needing Obito's chakra. That was not the case with Nagato. If what you said was true, then Obito would've had to connect with the statue in order to achieve greater control; he did not. You keep talking about strong chakra being a factor in controlling the statue without actually posting pages to support your claim. There are none which imply strong chakra levels influence control. As I already told you, even 14 year old Obito was in a position where he could control the beast decently. It's just about having the Rinnegan and/or possessing the blood of Uchiha and Senju. Nothing else was mentioned.

Nagato's example was completely situational and it becomes obvious that Gedō Mazō needed chakra from Nagato - it had nothing to do with the level of control he could acquire. That was already set in stone. [ ].

He taught Obito all the abilities of the Rinnegan and the 6 paths. There is no difference in ability - by feats, yes, but the manga has made it painfully clear what Obito is capable of. He has not used the Rinnegan fully because, as the manga has already said, Kakashi, Gai and Naruto have counters for the techniques, so it'd be a waste of energy on Obito's part. He (Madara) simply used a large scale Banshō Ten'in to pull down the meteor (as Nagato was shown to pull down a rock via similar means, although smaller because Kabuto was controlling him and did not want to kill Naruto and Bee [ ]), and it's not surprising that he was able to bring down something so large considering he was being backed by limitless chakra and a carefree mentality. Nagato destroyed an entire village with a Chou Shinra Tensei - Madara hasn't produced something on this scale with his Rinnegan. Are you therefore saying that Nagato > Madara in terms of ability with the Rinnegan, just because he produced more damage?

gedo mazo is a summon that follows its master's bidding in this case, both tobi and madara have the means to control it which is senju and uchiha dna. its not like tobi can simply command it and the mazo would simply ignore madara's attempts to control it. It isnt sealed inside tobi like how the nine tails was inside naruto so madara could not get it to obey him. In a similar situation gedo is a summon of madara so he should similar to ninetails situation be able to command it. And thats why its a wild card since both shinobi are able to get access it power.
In this scenario, Obito is already in control of Gedō Mazō - the Bijuu are sealed inside and their powers are bound to Obito's Jinchūriki paths by the black rods which have his chakra flowing through them, not Madara's. How is Madara going to wrestle it from Obito's control? Telepathy? They both meet the requirements. Neither have an advantage of the other, except Obito is already in control of it. He is the one who has summoned it to this battle. How can you see Madara can simply seize control over it, especially considering Obito is in possession of Madara's very eye. It's not a summon of Madara. He was merely the first to summon it. That's like saying Gamabunta is Jiraiya's summon. No. He is the summon of anyone who has made a contract with the toads. The statue is as much Obito's as it is Madara's in plot free combat - unlike Madara, however, Obito actually starts the fight in full control over the beast.
 
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Omnipotent

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No. Madara only made the black rods out of his will. They do not have his chakra flowing through them - they have the chakra of the person who's conducting Rikudō no Jutsu or controlling Gedō Mazō. The rods aren't alive. Black Zetsu is. Unlike him, they don't have Madara's mind in them. They cannot think. They were simply created from his will, that's all. Madara's chakra isn't flowing through them. And anyone using the 6 paths jutsu can control them, as confirmed by Madara himself.



lol your links having nothing to do with controlling the statue or the mechanics of the black rods. That was simply a reference to Nagato's unusually high chakra levels. Nowhere was it stated that having stronger or more powerful chakra makes the binding stronger. Nowhere. Nagato's was weaker because he only met one requirement (just having the Rinnegan). Madara already said that lacking in one of the requirements means you will not be able to use Gedō Mazō as well as someone who ticks all the boxes.



Obito meets both - he possesses the Rinnegan and has Rikudō blood. Nagato could not use it well without getting stabbed since the statue had no chakra to work with. The empty shell of the ten tails. It needed Nagato's chakra in order to function; getting stabbed has nothing to do with control. That is yet another assumption not backed by anything in the manga. Nothing whatsoever. Nagato could control it without being pierced (not aswell as Obito or Madara, however, since he only has Senju blood), and getting pierced would not improve his level of control. Obito hasn't connected with it via such means and his control is superior to Nagato's. It's clear that possessing the chakra of the 7 Bijuu has allowed the Mazō to function without needing Obito's chakra. That was not the case with Nagato. If what you said was true, then Obito would've had to connect with the statue in order to achieve greater control; he did not. You keep talking about strong chakra being a factor in controlling the statue without actually posting pages to support your claim. There are none which imply strong chakra levels influence control. As I already told you, even 14 year old Obito was in a position where he could control the beast decently. It's just about having the Rinnegan and/or possessing the blood of Uchiha and Senju. Nothing else was mentioned.

Nagato's example was completely situational and it becomes obvious that Gedō Mazō needed chakra from Nagato - it had nothing to do with the level of control he could acquire. That was already set in stone. [ ].

He taught Obito all the abilities of the Rinnegan and the 6 paths. There is no difference in ability - by feats, yes, but the manga has made it painfully clear what Obito is capable of. He has not used the Rinnegan fully because, as the manga has already said, Kakashi, Gai and Naruto have counters for the techniques, so it'd be a waste of energy on Obito's part. He simply used a large scale Banshō Ten'in to pull down the meteor, and it's not surprising that he was able to bring down something so large considering he was being backed by limitless chakra and a carefree mentality. Nagato destroyed an entire village with a Chou Shinra Tensei - Madara hasn't produced something on this scale with his Rinnegan. Are you therefore saying that Nagato > Madara in terms of ability with the Rinnegan, just because he produced more damage?



In this scenario, Obito is already in control of Gedō Mazō - the Bijuu are sealed inside and their powers are bound to Obito's Jinchūriki paths by the black rods which have his chakra flowing through them, not Madara's. How is Madara going to wrestle it from Obito's control? Telepathy? They both meet the requirements. Neither have an advantage of the other, except Obito is already in control of it. He is the one who has summoned it to this battle. How can you see Madara can simply seize control over it, especially considering Obito is in possession of Madara's very eye. It's not a summon of Madara. He was merely the first to summon it. That's like saying Gamabunta is Jiraiya's summon. No. He is the summon of anyone who has made a contract with the toads. The statue is as much Obito's as it is Madara's in plot free combat - unlike Madara, however, Obito actually starts the fight in full control over the beast.
Calm down. Either one of them could win under circumstance. It's just more likely that Obito would lose against Madara than win. There's a reason why Naruto's fighting Madara and not Obito.
 

OnPoint

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Calm down. Either one of them could win under circumstance. It's just more likely that Obito would lose against Madara than win. There's a reason why Naruto's fighting Madara and not Obito.
I have said this match would end in a draw, which you would've known had you read my earlier points. You also mention plot, which is totally irrelevant.
 

Sunagura

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to use kamui or suck someone to another demention obito must touch and Obito must become solid in order to interact with others,He can only make himself continuously intangible for about five minutes...5 five minutes is nothing to madara he fight hashirama the strogest persone at his time in day so. but stil we haven't see all madara ability yet his MS and his brother MS ability and his EMS ability and they both pretty much haven't use riningan to it full potential...while obito ability is almost out of quetion we stil have long way to see madara and all his ability, for now i don't know who will win beacause we haven't see all rinningan ability they use. stil wating more from madara MS ability.
 
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