Please show me what post you used to derive that conclusion. He would've won, effortlessly, had he been in the same mindset as his opponents (to destroy/overcome his foe). Are you denying that Madara was not in a bloodlusted mindset? Are you also believing that the Madara which was forced to convert to the Rinnegan was actually at full (EMS) power?
no im not.. All i am saying is, that during the battle in the manga If madara had not used his rinnegan to absorb FRS he would have been sealed.. I dont care if he wasnt in blood lust mode, that was his own fault. But the manga clearly showed that his rinnegan saved him.. Thats all im saying.
Naruto doesnt have weak chakra control.. you cant walk on water, make rasengans, and learn the TBB with weak chakr control.. he had weak Chakra control in pt1, but he has since gain chakra control.. He can make 500 clones and each clone can enter a mode.
You are only talking about a KM naruto, but when he got BM, the tides changed quickly.. Naruto destroyed all of his paths, and obito cant land a single hit on nartuo.. naruto cant hit obito, but at the same time there is nothing obito can do to BM naruto..
its 4 vs 1.. Obito has a major advantage and he still isnt doing anything.. Its because he cant.. There is NOTHING obito can do to BM naruto... Obito is intagible.. that is his greatest weapon, but it doesnt make him OP.
Naruto cannot make many clones when he is gathering sage chakra because it disrupts the gathering. This was stated in his fight with Pain.
It is possible for Naruto to make many KCM clones, but the most we have seen is around 20. That is the limit so far.
Judging from the fact that Naruto had KCM clones pull out the stakes of the Jinchuriki paths while in BM, it seems that only the main Naruto can sustain BM while clones cannot. This is due to Kurama and Naruto having to sync with each other. Kurama cannot sync with more than one Naruto.
So what you are now looking at is the main Naruto in BM and a score in KCM, or main Naruto in BM, a few in KCM, and a few in SM since having more clones disrupts the sage chakra in Naruto and his other clones.
Edit: Still a force to be reckoned with but not as dramatic as the OP stated.
First off, when he fougth pain he hadnt mastered sage mode so he needed clones to help gather chakra, that why he could just spam them.. He has master SM now.
Secondly naruto has clones BM already, so your point is disproven.:
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1 BM clone is making TBB and the other is making a rasengan,
no im not.. All i am saying is, that during the battle in the manga If madara had not used his rinnegan to absorb FRS he would have been sealed.. I dont care if he wasnt in blood lust mode, that was his own fault. But the manga clearly showed that his rinnegan saved him.. Thats all im saying.
Nah man, you denied that Edo EMS Madara is OP (which he is, with Perfect Susanoo). You're reasoning was based on the fact that you believed he could be defeated by Gaara and Naruto; there was nothing stopping him from completely fodderizing that division by pulling out Perfect Susanoo at
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moment (if he was, you know, actually serious about fighting these people);
Not at all.. To call EMS madara OP you would also have to call hashirama OP, and hashiram was not OP.. Edo EMS madara was about to lose to gaara and naruto.
WTF are you talking about.. When he first entered BM he could only stay in BM for 5 mins.. we he re-entered it after learning about the juubi's past he has maintained it for more than five minutes..
Its been at leat 20 minute from the time he entered it to the time when madara got he just now.. and he's made clones and Tbb in the process.. how about you try again/.
Nah man, you denied that Edo EMS Madara is OP (which he is, with Perfect Susanoo). You're reasoning was based on the fact that you believed he could be defeated by Gaara and Naruto; there was nothing stopping him from completely fodderizing that division by pulling out Perfect Susanoo at
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moment (if he was, you know, actually serious about fighting these people);
It's also rather clear that Hashirama (along with Obito, Nagato and the like) are OP as shit.
WTF are you talking about.. When he first entered BM he could only stay in BM for 5 mins.. we he re-entered it after learning about the juubi's past he has maintained it for more than five minutes..
Its been at leat 20 minute from the time he entered it to the time when madara got he just now.. and he's made clones and Tbb in the process.. how about you try again/.
Hahaha, you have no proof of it being 20 minutes from Naruto activating it to Madara appearing. Fact still remains though, he can only sustain it for a limited period of time.
Naruto can't even defeat Edo EMS Madara, so how can he be 'way more OP' than him when the latter is boosted by Edo perks (and, of course, Perfect Susanoo [which by itself means the gap between Naruto and EMS Madara cannot be as large as you claim], which
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the '
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' meteors Madara had summoned without effort). Are you also forgetting that Madara overcome a Bijuu Mode clone with just a
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which had been boosted by the use of Uchiha Gaeshi (and again, seemingly doing so effortlessly)?
Firstly, i'd love for you to post the manga page which clearly indicates Shodai's age at the time of his death, because as far as i'm concerned, that is nothing more than speculation at this point (along with his means of death). Hashirama is not OP? Being described as having
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like strength (in a similar fashion to the Rikudo Sennin himself), whereby there feats are written off as mere myths, does not constitute being labelled OP? Seemingly being on a different level to ninjas of this day and age (which I bring up since I recall you claiming Gaara > Hashirama despite Kabuto pretty much having seen Gaara's abilities through his various Edo summons) is not something which you consider? The 5 kages have repeatedly been compared to Hashirama by Madara; and each time, their combined efforts have been described as nothing but shit before him (seen
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and
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). He who was simply described (in the official VIZ translation) as being the ultimate shinobi; someone who could heal injuries without hand signs (which is an extremely useful asset in battle).
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altering techniques? The mere fact that this man was not instantly fodderized when facing both Kurama and Perfect Suasnoo says bucktloads about his credentials. We've seen what simply possessing his DNA can do for people. Obito, with just a snippet of his power, could do
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. Yamato, who has been seen to make entire waterfalls and the like, claims his ability with the Wood Style is nothing when compared to the 1st Hokage. We've seen the outrageous scale of jutsu such as
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(which forced Naruto to exhaust all the chakra Kurama had granted him in one go) and
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. Naruto learnt his Tajū Kage Bunshin no Jutsu from Shodai's own scroll - the very jutsu you hold in such high regard for Naruto actually stems from something the first Hokage wrote himself. Uncommonly durable clones which can merge with trees and be so alike with Hashirama that only those who
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the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan can distinguish between the copy and the original? The possibility that Zetsu, being created completely from Hashirama's DNA, possess all the techniques that Shodai himself had (for example, OP
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). A man who could completely control Bijuu, bend them
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and round them up as
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is not OP? Someone who has the ability to suppress your chakra by entangling you in Mokuton cannot be OP? The man who epitomizes the very Body of Rikudo Sennin? The crème de la crème of the Senju clan which was touted as the
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clan in the world? Not even mentioning the bringer-of-darkness technique here. Hashirama is not OP? Yeah right.
Kabuto's the most powerful. Has dark sage mode, is super smart, has the abilities of a lot of Orochimaru's best men, and can summon Edo Madara, Edo Itachi, and Edo Itachi among others. He can just spam Edo Deidara C4 too.
Hahaha, you have no proof of it being 20 minutes from Naruto activating it to Madara appearing. Fact still remains though, he can only sustain it for a limited period of time.
here's my proof... When naruto first activated BM mode it only lasted for 2 chapters..
sense his second time activating it it has been 4 chapter (not including the flashback)
Naruto can't even defeat Edo EMS Madara, so how can he be 'way more OP' than him when the former is boosted by Edo perks (and, of course, Perfect Susanoo [which by itself means the gap between Naruto and EMS Madara cannot be as large as you claim], which
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the '
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' meteors Madara had summoned without effort). Are you also forgetting that Madara overcome a Bijuu Mode clone with just a
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which had been boosted by the use of Uchiha Gaeshi (and again, seemingly doing so effortlessly)?
Naruto can defeat Edo EMS madara. Naruto only used sage mode on EMS madara, im pretty sure bijuu mode naruto against the EMS madara would have been over kill. Naruto does have means of sealing Edo Madara thru the use of toads summons, so dont try to say that he cant seal Madara.
And this TBB is more than enought to destroy the meteor:
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I cant believe your gonna sit here and try to give credit to madara for destroying a Bijuu clone. First of all naruto had no idea what that fan was capable of. and secondly it was naruto's own attack that backfired on him. But i can gaurentee it wont happen again..
Firstly, i'd love for you to post the manga page which clearly indicates Shodai's age at the time of his death, because as far as i'm concerned, that is nothing more than speculation at this point (along with his means of death). Hashirama is not OP? Being described as having
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like strength (in a similar fashion to the Rikudo Sennin himself), whereby there feats are written off as mere myths, does not constitute being labelled OP? Seemingly being on a different level to ninjas of this day and age (which I bring up since I recall you claiming Gaara > Hashirama despite Kabuto pretty much having seen Gaara's abilities through his various Edo summons) is not something which you consider? The 5 kages have repeatedly been compared to Hashirama by Madara; and each time, their combined efforts have been described as nothing but shit before him (seen
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
and
You must be registered for see links
). He who was simply described (in the official VIZ translation) as being the ultimate shinobi; someone who could heal injuries without hand signs (which is an extremely useful asset in battle).
You must be registered for see links
altering techniques? The mere fact that this man was not instantly fodderized when facing both Kurama and Perfect Suasnoo says bucktloads about his credentials. We've seen what simply possessing his DNA can do for people. Obito, with just a snippet of his power, could do
You must be registered for see links
. Yamato, who has been seen to make entire waterfalls and the like, claims his ability with the Wood Style is nothing when compared to the 1st Hokage. We've seen the outrageous scale of jutsu such as
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(which forced Naruto to exhaust all the chakra Kurama had granted him in one go) and
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. Naruto learnt his Tajū Kage Bunshin no Jutsu from Shodai's own scroll - the very jutsu you hold in such high regard for Naruto actually stems from something the first Hokage wrote himself. Uncommonly durable clones which can merge with trees and be so alike with Hashirama that only those who
You must be registered for see links
the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan can distinguish between the copy and the original? The possibility that Zetsu, being created completely from Hashirama's DNA, possess all the techniques that Shodai himself had (for example, OP
You must be registered for see links
). A man who could completely control Bijuu, bend them
You must be registered for see links
and round them up as
You must be registered for see links
is not OP? Someone who has the ability to suppress your chakra by entangling you in Mokuton cannot be OP? The man who epitomizes the very Body of Rikudo Sennin? The crème de la crème of the Senju clan which was touted as the
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clan in the world? Not even mentioning the bringer-of-darkness technique here. Hashirama is not OP? Yeah right.
Before i get into the flaws of what you just posted, i will give you credit where credit is due.. I aparently have underestimated the power of hashirama. So you are right in saying that he is ALSO OP.. But that still doesnt take anything away from the OP of naruto.
Now onto the flaws.lol
1. Being able to heal yourself without handsigns doesnt allow you to call yourself OP. Both taunade and sakura are both capable of doing the same thing..
2. Hashirama isnt the only person who can change that landscape, so you cant say that that make you OP either. People who can alter the landscape include:
Naruto
gaara
yamato
oonoki
muu
tobirama
madara
any jinchuriki
kisame
3. The sage himself has said that naruto would become the next savior of the world (much like the sage himself)
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4. Nowhere in the manga does it say the the first hokage wrote the scroll of seals or that he created multi shadow clone jutsu. The only refrence regarding this scroll and hashirama is that he hid it away and labeled the jutsu on it kinjutsu (forbidden).. So hashirama has nothing to do with naruto's multi shadow clone jutsu.
5. EMS cant see thru shadow clones.smh There is nothing in the manga that proves this.. Madara can see thru wood clones because they are made of wood.
6. Another big flaw is when your say hashirama had control over the bijuu like his pets.smh Hashirama could seal the bijuu's and had captured them all by some unknown means (most likely gedo mazu), but he didnt have full controll over any of them, because if he could just simply control them then he wouldnt have needed Mito to become the nine tails jinchuriki.
7. Mokuton does not supress your chakra. Mokuton techniques may supress them, but mokuton itself doesnt supress your chakra.
8. Senju may have been the strongest clan in the would but the uzamaki were the most feared clan in the world.
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Mostly because there entire clan was OP.
But thats all i wanted to point out. You were right about hashirama. My mistake, but i still dont think that you are right about madara.
Naruto can defeat Edo EMS madara. Naruto only used sage mode on EMS madara, im pretty sure bijuu mode naruto against the EMS madara would have been over kill. Naruto does have means of sealing Edo Madara thru the use of toads summons, so dont try to say that he cant seal Madara.
Page showing the toads performing said sealing technique on a shinobi or at least something which indicates they can do so please. This, of course, not even considering that one swing of Perfect Susanoo's blade would completely and utterly annihilate any summons.
And this TBB is more than enought to destroy the meteor:
I cant believe your gonna sit here and try to give credit to madara for destroying a Bijuu clone. First of all naruto had no idea what that fan was capable of. and secondly it was naruto's own attack that backfired on him. But i can gaurentee it wont happen again..
That page actually highlighted how rash Naruto often is when facing top tiers, something Madara could very easily use against him in order to pick him off.
Before i get into the flaws of what you just posted, i will give you credit where credit is due.. I aparently have underestimated the power of hashirama. So you are right in saying that he is ALSO OP.. But that still doesnt take anything away from the OP of naruto.
1. Being able to heal yourself without handsigns doesnt allow you to call yourself OP. Both taunade and sakura are both capable of doing the same thing..
Being able to heal yourself in battle as you fight is OP. Sakura cannot do it on the level of Tsunade and Hashirama's Byakugou. It is a priceless advantage to hold over your opponent, being able to overcome injuries near instantly and what not (while they, in many cases, must continue to fight through fatigue, injury and pain).
2. Hashirama isnt the only person who can change that landscape, so you cant say that that make you OP either. People who can alter the landscape include:
Naruto
gaara
yamato
oonoki
muu
tobirama
madara
any jinchuriki
kisame
This is another mistake you're making. Granted, these people have large AoE jutsu but these are not on the level of Hashirama's techniques (or the select group of Madara, Naruto, Obito [with Gedo & Bijuu] and Nagato).
- Gaara cannot create and subsequently spam sand on the scale of an entire village. Just
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the size of Madara's Susanoo to a small section of Shodai's Kajukai Kōrin; further still, compare Gaara's size to the tendrils of Hashirama's plants in that very photo. A flea in comparison.
- By Yamato's own admission he is nothing compared to Hashirama, and only once you accept that will you be able to actually grasp the scale of the 1st Hokage's jutsu (since you seem impressed already by what Yamato can do). His Wood Style created Konoha, whereas Yamato was tired after just using his
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jutsu once - another things which separates Hashirama (and the other ninja I named) from the rest is their ability to spam these landscape altering jutsu consistently.
- Onoki's super Jinton
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consume Hashirama's forest in its entirety. He's not helped by the fact that, again, Jinton is not a spammable technique (and there's always the question of whether tsunade actually boosted Onoki's chakra capacity so that his power level was beyond its normal threshold). The size of his Doton techniques are not even comparable. Look at the size of the
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Hashirama fought in comparison to the Gokage. When it can casually do
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(and in the process, change the entire landscape), you must realise than the scale of Hashirama's Wood Style (in order to defend against such assaults) had to have been out of this world.
- Muu is essentially the same as Onoki (interms of landscape altering capabilities) but with worse Jinton feats.
- Tobirama has one Suiton feat (during the battle against Hiruzen). Again, such a technique is completely and utterly blown out of the water by the Mokuton feats.
- Tailed beasts outside of the Kyuubi and Hachibi only ( I say 'only' because it is still not as big as what Madara, Hashirama, Naruto, Nagato and Obito [5 Bijuu combined] have been able to produce) have the feat of destroying single mountains with their Bijuu Damas, though this is hardly an issue when Shodai is capable of suppressing Bijuu (or, seemingly, any type of chakra) with his Mokuton [
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] [
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] (remembering that Yamato's ability with Wood Release is far below that of the 1st Hokage's).
Go and look at the actual scale of such jutsu (the size of small villages and whole landscapes) and you will see how small Kisame's feats are in comparison. Daikōdan is just not worth comparing to the size of these techniques.
3. The sage himself has said that naruto would become the next savior of the world (much like the sage himself)
4. Nowhere in the manga does it say the the first hokage wrote the scroll of seals or that he created multi shadow clone jutsu. The only refrence regarding this scroll and hashirama is that he hid it away and labeled the jutsu on it kinjutsu (forbidden).. So hashirama has nothing to do with naruto's multi shadow clone jutsu.
No, Hashirama forbade its use because he knew that those who did not possess the required chakra supplies (not a problem for someone who possesses the actual body of the Rikudo Sennin's younger son) would risk death through its use. It's all very relevant since Mito could've very easily taught him basic Uzumaki sealing techniques (hurr durr, Scroll of Seals) - exactly how Kushina taught Minato the Uzumaki sealing techniques (who was then able to create new variations of sealing jutsu - for example, Shiki Fujin). It's clearly a jutsu he was capable of using.
5. EMS cant see thru shadow clones.smh There is nothing in the manga that proves this.. Madara can see thru wood clones because they are made of wood.
This is complete and utter bollocks considering it has already been canonically stated that only Madara could see through the Moku Bunshin no Jutsu because he possessed the Sharingan's ocular powers (it explicitly said Madara, and not Uchihas which says alot since it indicates that a high form of the Sharingan is needed - and only Madara had the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. Hashirama's Mokuton clones are not the same as the basic shadow clone technique Naruto is using; they're a league above interms of both durability and versatility (whilst also being able to use all of the user's original techniques).
6. Another big flaw is when your say hashirama had control over the bijuu like his pets.smh Hashirama could seal the bijuu's and had captured them all by some unknown means (most likely gedo mazu), but he didnt have full controll over any of them, because if he could just simply control them then he wouldnt have needed Mito to become the nine tails jinchuriki.
Again, you are completely ignoring what has been canonically stated. Hashirama could:
> Bend Bijuu
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> Truly be said to
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Bijuu
This is irrefutable evidence so I don't know where on earth you acquired the notion that he could not control Bijuu. You don't know his motives for having Mito seal the 9 tails inside herself.
7. Mokuton does not supress your chakra. Mokuton techniques may supress them, but mokuton itself doesnt supress your chakra.
No, it simply says that they were feared, not that they were the most feared or the strongest. It was the Senju clan which was respected and feared as being the best.
MOst op char so far is....wait for it SOp6 yes i said it , we have never seen anything hes really done , no one was alive. For all we know he was like the wizard of oz to them. Prob was where Nappa landed after Vegeta blasted his ass.
First off, when he fougth pain he hadnt mastered sage mode so he needed clones to help gather chakra, that why he could just spam them.. He has master SM now.
Secondly naruto has clones BM already, so your point is disproven.:
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1 BM clone is making TBB and the other is making a rasengan,
if his clones are in bijuu mode then they can take the form of kurama. All of them have kurama's chakra so they are able to make his cloak.. Its just like madara's clones using susanoo.
