Can you please show me a link where he said that? So far i know i think he said "Naruto" has more stamina than him. Never heard that Sasuke had more. Proof is that in part1, Sasuke could only use 2chidoris, when Kakashi could use 4Raikiri(more powerful version). So how could Sasuke have more stamina if he can do less Chidoris?
Kakashi vs Hebi Sasuke
- Thread starter KidGamer65
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EliteKakashi
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First of all, Sasuke is at a pretty large disadvantage when attacking Kakashi. He has shown no katon ability that would overwhelm Kakashi's Suiton: Suijinheki, which he has shown he can use
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Secondly, chidori will have no effect on Kakashi. If Kakashi knows a technique, he has a counter for it, as he stated
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, and has shown on numerous occasions, such as
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and
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.On top of knowing Sasuke's ability to use chidori, Kakashi will also recognize his ability to enhance his weapons with raiton, as he has
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, which in the case of a kenjutsu fight, Kakashi would not be at a disadvantage. I would also argue that Kakashi's kenjutsu trumps that of Sasuke, with him having shown the ability to wield the Kubikiribocho with ease, and matching Zabuza with
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. What could become tricky is Sasuke's multiple chidori variants, but lets not forget that
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, which thanks to his gigantic stamina upgrade in this war, is not as detrimental to him as it once was. On top of that, Kakashi has shown multiple variants of chidori(well, in his case Raikiri) as well, such as
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and
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.Along with that, Sasuke would be wise to be careful in using his chidori variants, as with raiton being Kakashi's affinity and with him not only being the man who
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, he's also shown the ability to
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, copying Sasuke's raiton variants should be extremely easy for him.In regards to Manda, I covered that with saying Kakashi could use Raiden. But there's also an issue for Sasuke here, and that's even if Manda WANTS to assist Sasuke. Manda has threatened to
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and
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, and
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.Sasuke taking the time to summon then take control of Manda could wind up getting him killed, as well. Kakashi would undoubtedly take the opportunity to attack and prevent Sasuke from performing this,
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. If him blitzing Asura like that isn't enough of an example of him being fast enough to close any gap Sasuke may have created, here's
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.As far as Kakashi getting a kill shot goes, there's him using his doton and kage bunshin abilities, he was even able
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, which left Itachi open to get hit by Naruto, but in this scenario, he could take care of the deed himself by tunneling underground behind Sasuke and ending his life with raikiri.His raiton kage bunshin managed to
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, and left Deva Path confused as to where Kakashi was, and Kakashi was ready to kill Deva before
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Sasuke's CS2 amplifies the power of his techniques, but shouldn't give Kakashi that much more trouble as the speed does not differ too much and Kakashi can still copy his techniques. The issue from CS2 is Orochimaru popping out..that would probably be the end of Kakashi, but that would be Orochimaru beating Kakashi, not Sasuke.
I feel Kirin would fall to the same death as summoning Manda, takes far too long, and Kakashi would by no means let Sasuke just stand up there and perform it without attacking or taking defensive measures.
With Kakashi having counters for every offensive attack Hebi Sasuke can throw at him, and having a tactical mind that is matched by only the Nara father/son duo in this manga, Kakashi can undoubtedly take care of Sasuke without needing to resort to his mangekyou sharingan, just as he almost took out the 2 most powerful paths of pain without it(if it wasn't for Choza and Chouji interfering), and that was a Kakashi without the stamina upgrade.
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Thanks for making a case, I'd +rep you but I can't at this moment. I'll try again later.
Another problem while fighting Hebi Sasuke is his ability to
Kakashi knows that Sasuke can spit fire balls and has chidori. He has no idea on Sasuke's other lightning variants especially kirin although that one requires prep time and Sasuke is the only fire user here so I may as well ignore the technique. As I said before, that huge claw and those snakes are going to be Sasuke's trump cards against Kakashi since he has no knowledge on them. Chidori Nagashi is a pretty useful technique although for the same reason that Sasuke won't be paralysed by lightning clones, neither will Kakashi so it is kind of useless.
All in all I think Hebi Sasuke wins against Kakashi with high difficulty. I do agree that 3 tomoe Kakashi>>>3 tomoe Sasuke with mid difficulty although the power of the CS and Oro's own powers will allow Sasuke to defeat Kakashi despite Kakashi being superior to Sasuke in many ways.
Hebi Sasuke's Underrated Abilities
I agree that Kakashi has better taijutsu than Sasuke but if Sasuke uses his
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, it would give Kakashi one hell of a time. In which case, Kakashi would have to back up because using taijutsu against someone with a giant sharp claw is a very bad idea. Kakashi would have to stick to using mid range attacks such as lightning wolf and lightning infused kunais to attack Sasuke. Kakashi would end up wasting a kage bunshin against Sasuke to test him out if he felt like he could dominate Sasuke in a CQC bout.Another problem while fighting Hebi Sasuke is his ability to
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. Again, Kakashi doesn't know about this ability of Sasuke's and might get caught if he comes in range.
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who weren't able to escape despite one having the ability to turn into liquid and one having super strength.Knowledge
Now I guess we will compare the knowledge they have on each other. Sasuke knows that Kakashi is a user of raiton, suiton and doton. Sasuke isn't getting owned by some water dragon jutsu since those don't have any killing potential and can be dodged. The doton technique isn't working against Hebi Sasuke for obvious reasons. Sasuke doesn't know about lightning clones, raiden or lightning wolf but lightning clones won't paralyse Sasuke since he is a raiton user. To prove this,
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but later on
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since he was unharmed. I agree that lightning wolves and raiden will be the most deadliest to use against Sasuke since Sasuke has no knowledge on them. Raiden does require two Kakashis so it is not only a waste of a bunshin feint, killing one of the clones will end the technique. Lightning wolf is a ninjutsu so it can be countered by Sasuke's fire attacks. Both jutsus will clash and neutralize each other or Sasuke will manage to overpower it with his CS.Kakashi knows that Sasuke can spit fire balls and has chidori. He has no idea on Sasuke's other lightning variants especially kirin although that one requires prep time and Sasuke is the only fire user here so I may as well ignore the technique. As I said before, that huge claw and those snakes are going to be Sasuke's trump cards against Kakashi since he has no knowledge on them. Chidori Nagashi is a pretty useful technique although for the same reason that Sasuke won't be paralysed by lightning clones, neither will Kakashi so it is kind of useless.
Lightning Techniques
I admit that Kakashi's lightning techniques are more powerful than Sasuke's but Sasuke's are quicker to activate and arguably more versatile.
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can help Sasuke create an opening against Kakashi. His earth wall won't protect him because lightning>earth and Kakashi will be forced to either dodge/jump in which case he becomes a target for
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while he is still in the air or recovering from the previous momentum. Chidori sharp spear has great cutting potential and a range of 5m, so although Kakashi can easily use raikiri on it or avoid it, though if he is pushed back by Sasuke's previous set of attacks, Kakashi will be overwhelmed. Kakashi can also choose to go underground but that wastes chakra and Sasuke will know what Kakashi is up to so he can fire chidori underground to take Kakashi out. If Kakashi and Sasuke clash raikiri and chidori, Kakashi will win unless Sasuke uses CS2 which will allow Sasuke's chidori to match Kakashi's or even overpower him. This would however take a lot more chakra so if Sasuke wins the battle, he will win but just barely.Sasuke's Prowess with Weapons
When it comes to the usage of shuriken, swords and kunai, Sasuke has been very sharp in the usage of all sorts of ninja tools. Sure Kakashi is pretty skilled to but I believe Sasuke is much better than him in this department. Bell test Sasuke threw rigged shuriken at Kakashi which
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. That is not all, Sasuke was able to use
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to trap Orochimaru in order to hit him with fire style phoenix flower jutsu. When Sasuke and Itachi fought each other, using
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, Sasuke was able to
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Itachi, who is faster than Kakashi. Sasuke has showed better skill in kenjutsu than Kakashi and also bears the legendary kusanagi blade, although for now I'll believe they would stalemate with each other. Physical strength is also important in a kenjutsu fight so Kakashi will probably have the uppe-rhand initially since he is older and more developed than Sasuke. Later on once Sasuke brings his CS into play, it should be able to enhance his strength to exceed Kakashi's and than Sasuke will overpower his sensei. Also Sasuke has some
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unique to him which allows him to bring out ninja tools with less difficulty than others. Other Stuff to Consider
I see these two as relatively equal but Kakashi has a much higher level of intellect than Sasuke although Sasuke himself is quite smart himself. They are equal when we look at both of their ninjutsu since even if Kakashi has three affinities compared to Sasuke's two, Sasuke also has techniques from CS2 and Oro's chakra. Kakashi does have better taijutsu but remember that Sasuke's wounds can be healed easily since he has Oro's chakra and those snake techniques will force Kakashi out of a taijutsu clash. If he does get caught by them, he is finished unless it was a bunshin feint. From his fight against Pain, we know that Kakashi can't spam shadow clones so him losing even just one shadow clone will give Sasuke an advantage. In CS2, Sasuke also gains some
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which he can use to fly or to cover himself from Kakashi's attacks. With his two winged defence and his incredible healing abilities, Sasuke is not getting killed in one hit by Kakashi. Kakashi will be forced to use raikiri multiple times to kill Sasuke while Kakashi himself has no such advantage against Sasuke.All in all I think Hebi Sasuke wins against Kakashi with high difficulty. I do agree that 3 tomoe Kakashi>>>3 tomoe Sasuke with mid difficulty although the power of the CS and Oro's own powers will allow Sasuke to defeat Kakashi despite Kakashi being superior to Sasuke in many ways.
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Hebi Sasuke wins Kakashi only option is Kamui. If sasuke was to summon manda and control him, manda alone would be a very difficult opponent for him, he would eat up Kakashi dog summonin. On top of that Sasuke stamina is much higher than Kakashi, plus the curse mark increases his Durability so Taijutsu won't be a issues for Sasuke. Since he was able to perform 3 Chidori's at the final Valley he should be able to do it again and with Manda & Sasuke's speed, kenjutsu, there's no way for Kakashi to win.
MS Sasuke is too easy for Sasuke he has his Hawk to soar the Sky to prep for Kirin, his Genjutsu which trapped a Kage in it before & Amaterasu which will insure a instant win
MS Sasuke is too easy for Sasuke he has his Hawk to soar the Sky to prep for Kirin, his Genjutsu which trapped a Kage in it before & Amaterasu which will insure a instant win
you think hebi sasukecould beat current 3T kakashi?,kakashi's raikiri is stronger than sasuke's chidori,hebi sasuke's chakra isnt much higher than current kakashi's,have you read the manga?, kakashi matched v2 jins with 3T only,so he has more than enough speed and taijutsu to handle a hebi sasuke.
Ms sasuke without susanoo vs ms kakasho. When did sasuke trap a kage in genjutsu?,are you talking abt danzo?,cuz he wasbt even fazed by it,kakashi has a mangeyko sharingan to break out of sasuke's own genjutsu if he is caught at all.amaterasu burns slowly and kakashi can easil take of his clothes that got hit,or just kamui the flames away,he has used kamui 4 times,he has been able to kamui an entire naruto clone,not to mention the fact that sasuke's eyes bleed when he wants to use it and kakashi will get a heads up and move out of sasuke's line of sight,besides if they get mutual hits with their kamui and ama,kamui will kill sasuke,and ama will hit kakashi's vest which he can take off.
Kakashi easily wins vs hebi sasuke and wins high diff vs ms sasuke without susanoo
Yes I believe Hebi Sasuke beats MS Sasuke for the reasons I've said. The Jinchuuriki were playin around witn Guy & Kakashi, when Obitio got foreal the Bijuu where goin to kill them and Naruto saved them.
Yes Danzo who broke out of Sasuke's, Genjutsu but he wouldve been dead if it wasn't for his Curse mark stoppin Sasuke. You have no proof of Kakashi breakin a Sharingan Genjutsu to say he would get out easy, Danzo method of breakin the Genjutsu could be different. Re read that Fight and see how fast Amaterasu turned Danzo into ash. After he Kamui Lil Naruto he fainted, once Amaterasu hit him he dead
the jins werent playing around with anyone,tobi made them go full bijuu because kakashi and guy matched them.
Danzo broke out of sasuke's genjutsu by the normal method,his sharingan in his eye wasnt working yet and danzo knew the seal was on sasuke,so there wasnt any need to worry anyway,kakashi has the sharingan which sees through genjutsus,not to mention the ms,so sasuke's genjutsus wont be a problem. Danzo wore a basically sleeveless vest,his lothes were very light,karin who wore an akatsuki robe over her clothes survived ama for some secs,a samurai survived ama for quite a while,so kakashi who wears clothes and a vest would not be engulfed as easily and would easily remove his clothes,besides ama is instant in close range,at mid it becomes fast,and kakashi using his sharingan will be able to react.kakashi used kamui on 3 things before the full naruto clone,he will just kamui a part of sasuke to kill him,and can even kamui the flames.
madvictory
Active member
Hebi Sasuke wins. He uses Kirin on Kakashi, and while he's absorbing it with Kamui, Sasuke pierces him with his sword.
madvictory
Active member
Either Kakashi loses his vision trying to absorb Kirin or simply takes a long time to do it, meanwhile, Sasuke kills him.
BenjerminGaye
Active member
Awards
Lmao. This thread is so dated current kakashi is considered war arc kakashi.
And Kakshi wins btw.
And Kakshi wins btw.
Ghost in the Shell
Active member
I actually reject the notion of these two being equals. They are similar, but in the end, Hebi Sasuke is Kakashi lite with less skill and intellect. The snake techniques Sasuke has really aren't enough to close the gap between the two. The curse mark does have a time limit, and leaves Sasuke rather weak afterwards. This can easily be countered by Kakashi keeping his distance, using mid ranged attacks, and reading his intentions with the sharingan. All in all, Kakashi is more versatile, has better raiton techs, better taijutsu, better kenjutsu, is more intelligent, and his genjutsu prowess (where people tend to underrate Kakashi) actually surpasses Hebi Sasuke's if we go by feats.
King Of Pop
Active member
snake techs does give sasuke a reasnable chance. snake guards can be summoned from his body to help in cqc, manda alongside sasuke fighting on top of it means kakashi gets destroyed, no two ways about it. while the cs does have it limits however it boosts sasukes ninjutsu and his speed. he is not an idiot, if kakashi keeps his distance, sasuke turns it off, simple as that. sasuke has a sharingan as well so he too can anticipate and read movements. kakashi doesnt have better raiton techs, thats backed up by nothing, doesnt have better taijutsu so dunno how you arrived at that, better kenjutsu?? pls stop trolling. when you can show kakashis kenjutsu feats(if any at all) any were near sasukes then you might have an argument. he may be more intelligent but that means jack shit here as sasuke(esp in his hebi days) is a capable strategist himself so intelligence isnt playing any factor. sasukes genjutsu feats from sai to deiadara as well as completely stalemating probably the most dynamic genjutsu user in the show. remind me of kakashis genjutsu feats again? putting down some fodders isnt any feat worth mentioning.(all excluding ms of course)
Edit. ohh old thread i see, in that case kakashi would win since its war arc
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makosheva7
Active member
Hebi Sasuke wins high diff. Summons make the difference here and CM2 make the difference here.
MS Sasuke wins high diff. (Kakashi never goes in without assessing opponents abilities with a clone first (Amaterasu) so Sasuke will waist an Amaterasu on a clone, so now it's MS Sasuke vs. Kakashi without Amaterasu as he does not have the stamina nor would it be smart to try and hit Kakashi with it if it could just be a clone)
MS Sasuke wins high diff. (Kakashi never goes in without assessing opponents abilities with a clone first (Amaterasu) so Sasuke will waist an Amaterasu on a clone, so now it's MS Sasuke vs. Kakashi without Amaterasu as he does not have the stamina nor would it be smart to try and hit Kakashi with it if it could just be a clone)
makosheva7
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Ghost in the Shell
Active member
They get cut down by raikiri infused kunais,
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and made a
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, which needed BM Naruto's kurama enhanced rasengan to crush [
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]. Not to mention that sharingan precog will allow Kakashi to see them coming. Manda choosing to fight alongside Sasuke is a miracle in itself, considering
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. Sasuke puts him under genjutsu,
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? Cool, Kakashi comes back with a genjutsu of his own and slices him with Raiden, or pierces through him with a raikiri kunai. It's not like Manda will obey Sasuke anyway, but just saying.The curse mark does take several seconds to activate, it's not an instantaneous process. Kakashi can feint Sasuke with bunshins, which have fooled both the sharingan [
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]-[
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] and the
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before, so he may opt to keep it on thinking that the Kakashi he's looking at is the real one. The real Kakashi can attack from other angles or incorporate more bunshins into his attack strategy.
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, which not even the real sword of Kusanagi was able to [
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]. Raijū Tsuiga is more versatile than Chidori Sharp Spear due to Kakashi having the ability to manipulate its course and seemingly having a larger range [
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]. Nagashi and Senbons clearly aren't better than the latter two. This is not even mentioning Kakashi having the ability to imbue weapons with Raikiri. Also, these attacks are derived from Raikiri, which is >> Chidori. Obviously I didn't include Kirin,
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. It's only a factor in a 1v1 when the conditions are adequate enough to use it. So yeah, Kakashi has better convential raiton techniques.A tired and exhausted Kakashi was
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, and took on some of the 7 Swordsmen of the Mist and beat them using the Kubikiribōchō [
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]-[
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]. It's safe to say that Kakashi wields a high level of proficiency in kenjutsu, and his feats in this respect surpasses Sasuke's, despite the fact that the latter carries around a sword all the time. Kakashi also
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in taijutsu and
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who was clowning Sasuke in taijutsu [
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]-[
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]. Also, keep in mind that Kakshi's score in taijutsu was a 4.5, while Sasuke's was a full point below. I'm not trolling, so please calm down.Sasuke has some good feats in this respect, but Kakashi's clearly a superior strategist and analyst by a longshot. His bunshin and combat tactics fooled both Pain and Itachi, both superior dojutsu users compared to Sasuke. He completely saw through Itachi's front after he used Tsukuyomi. He managed to deduce the mechanics and intricacies of Obito's kamui and linked it to his own kamui while having no intel beforehand. Even your boy Sasuke knew to shut up and listen to Kakashi when he devised the plan to beat Kaguya. Intelligence and combat experience is going to be a factor in most matches, so it does mean something, especially in this matchup.
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, someone who was capable of controlling the Kyuubi and the 4th Mizukage, who Danzō speculated to be a perfect jinchuuriki [
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]. Also,
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, so clearly Kakashi has a high level of prowess in this department. Listen, you like Sasuke, and I like Kakashi. Meaning that we're going to disagree on this matchup, and that's fine. But please, lets keep this civilized and not resort to calling each other names, and lets not unfairly downplay or undermine characters' feats. Or else I'm not going to bother responding.
Edit: I'm just accounting for 3T Kakashi vs Hebi Sasuke, by the way. Everyone know that Kamui one shots
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King Of Pop
Active member
ok then *cracks knuckles*
it doesnt have to want to obey sasuke as it gets tamed just like it already happened so last part is moot.
all what you have shown so far doesnt put his raiton techs above sasuke. the latter has raiton for different ranges. sasuke has nagashi for defense which can repel enemies when they get close
-sasuke initially matched killer bee(an experienced kenjutsu user) completely and bested him without his sharingan
- he defeated several samurais solely with his blade, same set of people who specialize in the art of swordmanship itself
kakashi having better kenjutsu is laughable.
- sasuke demonstrated good range with his own, being able to cast genjutsu on deidara from
-shee a genjutsu user whose capable of blinding his opponents with genjutsu using replicas of a situation
-danzo with a world of experience over sasuke, was tricked with genjutsu, with sasuke making him think he still had izanagi active wereas in reality he didnt.
so when you want to say kakashi has better genjutsu in feats you should really back it up and no matching another ms user in genjutsu isnt anything as genjutsu is not supposed to be a factor between ones with similar eyes. same with sasuke and itachi. if i use your logic then sasuke is still superior as he completely stalemated and matched itachi in genjutsu
dont you know how they work? sasuke can
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his hands and limbs completely, giving him more than enough time to behead him with his blade. suigetsu couldnt move a muscle even though he wielded a sword that can cut through the snakes, jugo as well didnt move even though he possesses strength as he displayed against ay. if kakashi is caught like that, he would experience difficulty moving his body let alone his hands so he isnt cutting them at least not immediately which gives sasuke more than enough time to pull out his katana and take his head of in a similar manner
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. the sharingan part is a fair point, although sasuke doesnt use hand seals to bring them out so i dont know how kakashi is going to anticipate it especially if he is in close range. his best bet is to try not to be caught because if he is then its pretty much game over as sasuke would strike immediately. note that sasuke can also use them for defense in which he can wrap them around his body
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just in case he is caught out or pressured in cqc but that is never happening here except orochimaru doesnt have a sharingan, sasuke does and with it he tames manda with genjutsu giving it no choice so your point here is moot.
except by then manda had already done what sasuke wanted it to do so theres no need to keep it under genjutsu, sasuke could have simply released it. no evidence it weared out because of sasukes inability. not to mention by that time he controlled it, sasuke was on his last legs having already expended so much chakra in his full on battle with deidara to the point were deidara comments on it
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. if a tired and nearly out of chakra sasuke can summon manda, tame and
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it for some few secs, then logic dictates that a fresh sasuke should be capable of controlling it longer than that at least 2 mins which is more than enough time to end this battle.his genjutsu isnt doing jack as sasuke would already have manda within his own genjutsu, mandas body is huge with his snake skin hardened, those raitons are not putting it down at once. kakashi would need to expend far more chakra into his raiton to cut it down and even then sasuke wont just be standing there and allow him do that. he would be fighting on top of mandas head
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. they charge at kakashi at once, if he tries to cut down manda, sasuke attacks him from above with sharp spear or his chidori extended blade in a similar manner to
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, if he focuses on sasuke manda feasts on him, if he tries any underground tactic manda follows suit and eats him. it doesnt have to want to obey sasuke as it gets tamed just like it already happened so last part is moot.
your point is? it is a very quick process non the less to the point were is makes no difference it doesnt have to be instantaneous. as for bunshin feints, thats only if sasuke charges in goes close range from the start he can be caught off guard. but he doesnt have to attack so close esp when he can utilize mid range attacks like chidori eiso, or he extends it with his blade.
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. this allows him to attack from mid range so getting caught in a raiton bunshin is less likely, if he is indeed fooled with the real kakashi underground, sasuke like i said before can quickly surround himself with snake guards for protection and they can be summoned quickly
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. also using bunshins on his part costs him half his chakra
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so its not something he can use very often, if it fails he means his chakra is depleted hence hes prone to running out of juice fast which is disadvantageous here.not really comparable. kusanagi clashed with the main body while raiden sliced through their arms. same way chidori eiso sliced hachibis tentacle, doesnt mean it can do that to the main body itself. but anyways i see your point.
ok for versatility over sharp spear but not in terms of range. sharp spear allows sasuke to cut down enemies or things without having to run up close to attack them
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, coming in handy against a flying opponent like deidara
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. kakashi doesnt have that luxury. sasuke can also pin down enemies with it while maintaining some distance
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.nagashi and senbon are different types for different ranges, not really comparable.all what you have shown so far doesnt put his raiton techs above sasuke. the latter has raiton for different ranges. sasuke has nagashi for defense which can repel enemies when they get close
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as well being able to channel it on the ground to help create an opening
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irrelevant as sasuke can also imbue his katana with chidori
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that logic doesnt really work like that. sasuke has more useful variants.
he can create the atmosphere with his flames alone as Db specified. amaterasu only helped speed up the process. what this means is that it would have taken him longer to create it without amaterasu present not that he needs amaterasu present all the time. also apparently he can use it with his own chakra as he also about to do
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. it would be less potent than if used with real lightning but sasuke was confident he would wipe out team 7 with it, orochimaru as well as he stopped sasuke. sure kirin requires some prep but it destroys anything in kakashis raiton arsenal so you cannot say he has better raiton techs, that is false.worn out? were did you get that from but ok, still nowhere near close to what sasuke did against bee tho.
there is no evidence that he beat multiple of them on his own. all you showed me is a scan of him hitting one with it, were are the others? and sai was present so he could have helped. others in the battlefield prsent there means there could have been a distraction. dunno its off panel so i dunno how you arrived at your conclusion. thats definitely not enough to say he has better feats than sasuke as ill demonstrate.
not a damn chance.
-sasuke initially matched killer bee(an experienced kenjutsu user) completely and bested him without his sharingan
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. this made bee put down that blade and go 8 swords. also this is the same bee who without even using his blade matched and parried away that of suigetsu with his fists
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. also note that the sasuke who did that was not physically in top shape and still had wounds from his battle with itachi
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.- he defeated several samurais solely with his blade, same set of people who specialize in the art of swordmanship itself
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. he clashed with a master swords man in mifune(leader of the samurai), being able to counter his quick draw tactics and was even complimented by him
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.kakashi having better kenjutsu is laughable.
ill leave out the taijutsu part as sasuke switched to kenjutsu and thats what he utilised mostly in cqc. but your last point is wrong, read the manga, itachi didnt clown anything, that was all genjutsu, none of them had moved from their initial position as black zetsu
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. i said you were trolling based on you saying kakashi has better kenjutsu which is nonsense. all what you have written here is irrelevant as i never denied he wasnt more intelligent, all i said was it wasnt going to be any sort of factor why? because he is up against someone who has also shown to observe and analyse his opponents carefully and right from the get go
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, able to come up with strategies to test his theory, as well as having back up plan in case his theory proved to be wrong
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. so please tell me how intelligence is going to be a factor against him? heck after
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, he quikly implemented the strategy of spamming his attacks to force danzo to use up izanagi
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. ability to not just make up but also effectively implement viable strategies, sorry but kakashis intelligence or battle smart is doing jack shit here, not against another guy who although inferior to him in smarts but is a highly capable
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.it means something in some matches, definitely not this one so you forget about it.
am pretty sure this thread is 3t kakashi and hebi so why are you bringing up ms genjutsu is beyond me. my post was mostly about 3t genjutsu but i would oblige you. your logic is faulty. obitos feat with yagura means nothing when he comes up against not just another ms user but someone with literally the same eye as him. kakashi is his counter so no shit obito genjutsu did nothing to him. you cant cast genjutsu on one with similar eyes(i think that was stated somewhere but cant find the scan) but its a known fact sharingan sees through genjutsu. however being able to see through and match obitos genjutsu doesn't mean he would as good in casting one. certainly not in your case of you saying he has better genjutsu than sasuke. i dont remember him having any genjutsu casting feat against an opponent worth nothing. on the other hand
- sasuke demonstrated good range with his own, being able to cast genjutsu on deidara from
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.-shee a genjutsu user whose capable of blinding his opponents with genjutsu using replicas of a situation
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, was caught in and eventually oneshotted by
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.-danzo with a world of experience over sasuke, was tricked with genjutsu, with sasuke making him think he still had izanagi active wereas in reality he didnt.
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.so when you want to say kakashi has better genjutsu in feats you should really back it up and no matching another ms user in genjutsu isnt anything as genjutsu is not supposed to be a factor between ones with similar eyes. same with sasuke and itachi. if i use your logic then sasuke is still superior as he completely stalemated and matched itachi in genjutsu
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, even going as far as to break tsykuyomi, even though it might have not have been as potent as it was before. and when it comes to skill in genjutsu, itachi is on top with opponents like deidara and orochimaru falling prey to him but yet it all became irrelevant when he faced his counter in sasuke. doesnt mean sasuke is anywere near close to itachi in genjutsu usage same thing in kakashi and obitos case.what are you talking about? when did i call you names? saying you should stop trolling isnt "name calling". if you are going to be sesitive to such trivial matters then you might as well not respond, saves me the trouble anyway.
but you went to use feats with ms but its ok since i did same. but what i wrote originally is based mostly on 3t for kakashi only.
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Ghost in the Shell
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, and open the first gate to increase his speed and power in CQC. I don't see how not using hand seals changes anything since the sharingan can predict movement, so he'll see the snakes coming anyway.You haven't exactly countered my point about the raikiri enhanced kunais either. Those snakes would get cut through like butter. If Sasuke tries to use it for defense as well.
You didn't really assess my scan. If you look at it again, you'd see that the 3T genjutsu was broken by Manda himself, and he started talking afterwards. Sasuke is going to have to keep putting Manda under genjutsu over and over, because it only takes one glance to put someone or something under genjutsu, and from there on the potency of the wielder's illusion is what maintains the genjutsu. Not to mention that Manda will also be healthy, so he should have less trouble breaking out of it.
3T sharingan genjutsu counters 3T sharingan genjutsu, as seen with Sasuke vs. Itachi and Kakashi vs. Obito. Kakashi casts his own illusion on Manda to counter Sasuke's, it's not difficult to follow.
You have no feats that prove that a snake's skin is hard or durable enough to withstand something that sliced through v2 jin cloaks with ease. Expend more chakra into his attacks? Doesn't make sense, and he won't need to do that, but ok.
Decent point about Sasuke, but he'd have to worry about Manda turning on him after Kakashi casts his own genjutsu on the giant snake, and Kakashi can use another bunshin here as well to give him enough time to execute Raiden.
Also, Kakashi can just slice through Manda's head with raikiri kunais as well.
My point is that the curse mark is only viable at short range here, and it'd be a waste of his chakra and energy to keep activating and deactivating. Any Chidori variant attacks Sasuke uses get copied or countered with Kakashi's own Raikiri variants. Any katon Sasuke uses gets stalemated at the worst by
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which is >> than Sasuke's katon alone powered up by the curse mark. Somewhat agree, but Kakashi's war arc stamina feats are rather absurd for someone who was more or less out of shape until the war. He won't have a problem using several bunshins, nor keeping up with Sasuke in a drawn out battle in this respect.
I don't really get this comparison either. The difference between the torso and the limbs/tails of a v2 Jin should be rather small compared to the difference between the tails and the rest of the body of the entire 8 Tails. Not to mention that Raiden's piercing power surpasses Chidori Eiso's
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I don't understand why Kakashi wouldn't have that luxury. It's just chakra, it's not like the wolf needs a platform with which to run on just because it has legs. The technique is just a product of applying shape manipulation. Since it blitzed Tendō in just one panel, the technique is rather quick as well.
They're used for different purposes, but when it comes down to it, Raikiri surpasses the Chidori, so they're more powerful.
Uh, yeah, I have. Kakashi has shown the ability to apply shape manipulation imbue his chakra into other weapons with the Raikiri like Sasuke did with the Chidori. He can use it as a projectile, a weapon, an attack at mid or short range. The difference being that he uses the Raikiri, while Sasuke uses the Chidori. Case in point.
Cool. I already established why this doesn't matter, though, and why you're wrong.
It will take him a lot longer since the heat of amaterasu's flames>>>>>>>> the heat of Sasuke's cm enhanced katon. In the scan I posted, Black Zetsu said that Sasuke specifically took the battle outside to take advantage of amaterasu, implying that Sasuke knew about this technique, and implying that he incorporated this into his strategy. Clearly Sasuke won't find it viable to use just his own fire release to heat up the sky. He's going to have to spam a lot of fire techniques in CM2 form just to get the stom clouds to form if we go by your claim. And Kakashi's has a set of good suiton techniques that he can use without a water source to prevent Sasuke from doing this.
Yeah he was worn out, because his hand was injured from training with Naruto, he had already used several raikiris, and he took some damage from Fuuton: Atsugai and Kakuzu's kick. Kakashi had below average reserves and stamina at this point in the manga, so yeah he was worn out.
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..
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. The others were sealed by then, when he faced Fuguki Suizakan, and Kakashi being the leader of that respective company means that he lead the charge and attacked first against these opponents. Ameyuri Ringo and the other sword clown both had their swords, and Kakashi was standing right in front of them with the Kubikiribōchō. In all probability, it was him that defeated these opponents.Bested Killer Bee? Bee literally tanked his attack with no damage whatsoever and stood there, and started writing song lyrics afterwards, lmfao. Once Bee got serious,
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. Saying that he seriously bested Bee in kenjutsu would be an overstatement to say the least.The thing you forget is that Kakashi was using an inferior weapon in the kunai... Also we have the feat of Kakashi squaring off evenly against Zabuza with just a kunai [
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]. The 7 Swordsmen of the Mist are famous for their mastery in kenjutsu as the name implies... Samurai are also masters, but Kakashi took on the former mostly with an inferior weapon, while Sasuke used his katana against the Samurai. He showed a lot of skill in using the Kubikiribōchō. He wielded the White Fang's very own tantō when he was a kid. He also went toe to toe against Hidan, who is also skilled in kenjutsu and wielded a large scythe in comparison to Kakashi's kunai. I just need these feats to rest my case.
I'll take that as a concession, then?
Lol, they were engaging in a taijutsu fight inside the genjutsu, but ok. He still got clowned, and he'll get clowned against an opponent of similar skill without the curse mark.
...Ok, so we're just going to deny what the manga tells us. Got it.
If someone is superior to somebody else in a certain category in a fight, then the former will use that to his/her advantage.
I know Sasuke is also a good analyzer and tactician, like I already acknoweldged. Doesn't change my point because Kakashi is >>>>>>>>>>> than Sasuke in this aspect, so the former will be at a disadvantage, like I just explained. It'd only be a non factor if the gap between them is close... which it certainly is not in this case.
Again, we're going to deny the manga. Kakashi stalemated Obito and came back with an illusion of his own against the latter, who managed to control the Kyuubi, and that was the only feat I really needed to be honest. I just threw in the Yagura example as a plus.
Kakashi and Obito having the same eyes is of no consequence, unless you can prove otherwise.
Casting and breaking genjutsu more or less go hand in hand. To cast good illusions, you need to be able to break good illusions, or else it'd be contradictatory. Also, the "fodder" Kakashi instantly put to sleep were agents of Danzō's Root, so let's not downplay that feat either.
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Really, your logic is missing here because
1. Deidara trained his eye to see through genjutsu and countered by feinting Sasuke with a nendo bunshin. He expected Sasuke to use it [
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]2. Danzō didn't have Shisui's eye activated at the time, so he didn't see through the genjutsu, which he would have done if such were the case.
3. Sasuke needed the influence of the curse mark stage 2 to break Tsukuyomi [
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].4. Obito doesn't have a MS genjutsu technique, and Kakashi didn't use the MS to counter it. I never once used the MS in any of the feats that I've showed.
Fair enough in regards to Shee, but Root agents are just as specialized as he is, so I don't know how that point helps you. Not to mention that he was caught off guard. Also, sharingan genjutsu is >>>> orthodox genjutsu using hand seals before you say that Shee is a genjutsu user and a medic.
At the time I thought this debate was going to devolve itself into us yelling at each other, so that's why I posted it. It matters because it decreases the quality of one's posts. You call me a troll, I prove you wrong, and you end up looking like an idiot, simple as that.
I didn't use feats with the mangekyō sharingan, but ok.
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