[Theory] Naruto shouldnt have been able to hit tobi in chap 598

[spartan_kenobi]

kishimoto's explanation of tobi's "one jutsu" is simply put, a self-contradicting mess.

basically, as everyone on narutobase already knows, when kamui (and tobi's ability) sends objects from dimension A to dimension A', their relative positions stay unchanged, thus the two dimensions are structured as such that overlapping coordinate systems can be applied:

I. that if kamui warps an object at point A in dimension A, it will ALWAYS END UP at point A' in dimension A'.

Now here's the thing, kakashi, and by extension kishimoto, tells us that tobi's "suction" jutsu is THE SAME JUTSU. if so, then his teleportation (using suction), which allows him to travel and transport things he sucks in (like sasuke and karin during kage summit) across large distance instantly, can only mean the following:

II. while statement I holds true, when tobi warps an object from point A' in dimension A' BACK to dimension A, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO ARRIVE AT point A

Since "suction" is supposed to be the same jutsu as the "intangibility" trick, and we all know how tobi phasing between 2 dimensions is instantaneous, then the way Naruto hit tobi in the last chapter is completely illegit. Let's slow down and see what happens:

Naruto using bijuudama's sheer size to force tobi to phase from his position point A in dimension A, to point A' in dimension A', to which point kakashi sent naruto's bunshin waiting for him. The "smart" thing about this plan is when tobi realized the bunshin's at point A' he couldnt escape back to point A because point A is completely engulfed in bijuu dama: TOBI IS PINNED DOWN. Brilliant right? WRONG!

If suction teleportation is the "same jutsu" as intangibility, then statement II would hold true, meaning tobi can just warp back to dimension A instantaneously but NOT AT point A, but at a random point B far away from the bijuu dama!

In fact this is not the first time tobi's getting pinned down like this. the ambush explosion by konan is exactly the same. but if it's "just one jutsu" like kakashi says, then statement II dictates that tobi shouldn't have been pinned down in either case.


Conclusion: defining suction and intangibility as "one jutsu" is logically erroneous, for it would have rendered both naruto's attack and konan's ambush meaningless.

 

[BaseIsBest]

My brain is hurting...

 

[Ultimate Beast]

Your over thinking things

 

[slashestranged]

you must be high/drunk. they explained the technique very clearly over 3 chapters

 

[Seiler]

kishimoto's explanation of tobi's "one jutsu" is simply put, a self-contradicting mess.

basically, as everyone on narutobase already knows, when kamui (and tobi's ability) sends objects from dimension A to dimension A', their relative positions stay unchanged, thus the two dimensions are structured as such that overlapping coordinate systems can be applied:

I. that if kamui warps an object at point A in dimension A, it will ALWAYS END UP at point A' in dimension A'.

Now here's the thing, kakashi, and by extension kishimoto, tells us that tobi's "suction" jutsu is THE SAME JUTSU. if so, then his teleportation (using suction), which allows him to travel and transport things he sucks in (like sasuke and karin during kage summit) across large distance instantly, can only mean the following:

II. while statement I holds true, when tobi warps an object from point A' in dimension A' BACK to dimension A, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO ARRIVE AT point A

Since "suction" is supposed to be the same jutsu as the "intangibility" trick, and we all know how tobi phasing between 2 dimensions is instantaneous, then the way Naruto hit tobi in the last chapter is completely illegit. Let's slow down and see what happens:

Naruto using bijuudama's sheer size to force tobi to phase from his position point A in dimension A, to point A' in dimension A', to which point kakashi sent naruto's bunshin waiting for him. The "smart" thing about this plan is when tobi realized the bunshin's at point A' he couldnt escape back to point A because point A is completely engulfed in bijuu dama: TOBI IS PINNED DOWN. Brilliant right? WRONG!

If suction teleportation is the "same jutsu" as intangibility, then statement II would hold true, meaning tobi can just warp back to dimension A instantaneously but NOT AT point A, but at a random point B far away from the bijuu dama!

In fact this is not the first time tobi's getting pinned down like this. the ambush explosion by konan is exactly the same. but if it's "just one jutsu" like kakashi says, then statement II dictates that tobi shouldn't have been pinned down in either case.


Conclusion: defining suction and intangibility as "one jutsu" is logically erroneous, for it would have rendered both naruto's attack and konan's ambush meaningless.

But dude....

Spoiler

He did..

 

[-Logic-]

90% of the base won't understand what you just wrote xd. Btw, I do think you're overthinking this, it's just an Anime. You can't expect Kishi to make it so accurate that it agrees with all Scientific laws and what not. ~_~'

 

[minatofan234]

you make things sound to complicated they explained it in the magna if you dont get it your just an idget

 

[-S-]

I'm not reading that.

Because I know if you're proving that he couldn't hit Tobi, you're wrong.

 

[Kirikoe]

if kishi wants naruto to hit tobi then naruto IS going to hit tobi whether we like it or not:scorps:

 

[Vasto Lordé]

Hmm oh well it's "His" manga after all .-.

 

[Hokage Swag]

U Mad?

 

[l3m0npl3dg3]

dude you shouldnt have worded it like that because nobodys gonna read it but the inconsistency in the manga is a bit much and he should have just warped away from the blast like weve seen before

 

[Shiina..]

kishimoto's explanation of tobi's "one jutsu" is simply put, a self-contradicting mess.

basically, as everyone on narutobase already knows, when kamui (and tobi's ability) sends objects from dimension A to dimension A', their relative positions stay unchanged, thus the two dimensions are structured as such that overlapping coordinate systems can be applied:

I. that if kamui warps an object at point A in dimension A, it will ALWAYS END UP at point A' in dimension A'.

Now here's the thing, kakashi, and by extension kishimoto, tells us that tobi's "suction" jutsu is THE SAME JUTSU. if so, then his teleportation (using suction), which allows him to travel and transport things he sucks in (like sasuke and karin during kage summit) across large distance instantly, can only mean the following:

II. while statement I holds true, when tobi warps an object from point A' in dimension A' BACK to dimension A, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO ARRIVE AT point A

Since "suction" is supposed to be the same jutsu as the "intangibility" trick, and we all know how tobi phasing between 2 dimensions is instantaneous, then the way Naruto hit tobi in the last chapter is completely illegit. Let's slow down and see what happens:

Naruto using bijuudama's sheer size to force tobi to phase from his position point A in dimension A, to point A' in dimension A', to which point kakashi sent naruto's bunshin waiting for him. The "smart" thing about this plan is when tobi realized the bunshin's at point A' he couldnt escape back to point A because point A is completely engulfed in bijuu dama: TOBI IS PINNED DOWN. Brilliant right? WRONG!

If suction teleportation is the "same jutsu" as intangibility, then statement II would hold true, meaning tobi can just warp back to dimension A instantaneously but NOT AT point A, but at a random point B far away from the bijuu dama!

In fact this is not the first time tobi's getting pinned down like this. the ambush explosion by konan is exactly the same. but if it's "just one jutsu" like kakashi says, then statement II dictates that tobi shouldn't have been pinned down in either case.


Conclusion: defining suction and intangibility as "one jutsu" is logically erroneous, for it would have rendered both naruto's attack and konan's ambush meaningless.

My brain is hurting...

^This :|

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[DeadManWonderLand]

kishimoto's explanation of tobi's "one jutsu" is simply put, a self-contradicting mess.

basically, as everyone on narutobase already knows, when kamui (and tobi's ability) sends objects from dimension A to dimension A', their relative positions stay unchanged, thus the two dimensions are structured as such that overlapping coordinate systems can be applied:

I. that if kamui warps an object at point A in dimension A, it will ALWAYS END UP at point A' in dimension A'.

Now here's the thing, kakashi, and by extension kishimoto, tells us that tobi's "suction" jutsu is THE SAME JUTSU. if so, then his teleportation (using suction), which allows him to travel and transport things he sucks in (like sasuke and karin during kage summit) across large distance instantly, can only mean the following:

II. while statement I holds true, when tobi warps an object from point A' in dimension A' BACK to dimension A, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO ARRIVE AT point A

Since "suction" is supposed to be the same jutsu as the "intangibility" trick, and we all know how tobi phasing between 2 dimensions is instantaneous, then the way Naruto hit tobi in the last chapter is completely illegit. Let's slow down and see what happens:

Naruto using bijuudama's sheer size to force tobi to phase from his position point A in dimension A, to point A' in dimension A', to which point kakashi sent naruto's bunshin waiting for him. The "smart" thing about this plan is when tobi realized the bunshin's at point A' he couldnt escape back to point A because point A is completely engulfed in bijuu dama: TOBI IS PINNED DOWN. Brilliant right? WRONG!

If suction teleportation is the "same jutsu" as intangibility, then statement II would hold true, meaning tobi can just warp back to dimension A instantaneously but NOT AT point A, but at a random point B far away from the bijuu dama!

In fact this is not the first time tobi's getting pinned down like this. the ambush explosion by konan is exactly the same. but if it's "just one jutsu" like kakashi says, then statement II dictates that tobi shouldn't have been pinned down in either case.


Conclusion: defining suction and intangibility as "one jutsu" is logically erroneous, for it would have rendered both naruto's attack and konan's ambush meaningless.

Its ridiculous how people whip out the 'plothole no justu"line when they do not understand something.You are forgetting two factors konan's justu does not follow him in the next dimension but that did not matter because she timed the explosions to go on for 10 minutes long enough for his to pop out of the dimension and get killed the battle would of ended there.But Tobi could not rely on the kamui anymore so he used izanagi.Kakashi and tobi's eye is connected meaning they are going to the same place not to mention he only warped the resengan away tricking tobi into not using his kamui.Allowing naruto to hit him with thus said resengan

 

[Yo pappy]

I think I get what you're saying. When Tobi is seen teleporting someone or something (or himself) there are times when he appears in different places when he comes back. Examples of this would be during the fight at the summit when he saved Sasuke, and when he fought Minato. But now apparently it's all one jutsu, and it really doesn't make a whole lotta sense because making one part of your body intangible is not the same as teleporting to a different place. Technically speaking, based on what has been shown in the past he should have been able to simply teleport outside of the Bijuu-Dama as soon as he saw Naruto in the other dimension.

 

[spartan_kenobi]

Its ridiculous how people whip out the 'plothole no justu"line when they do not understand something.You are forgetting two factors konan's justu does not follow him in the next dimension but that did not matter because she time the explosions to go on for 10 minutes long enough for his to pop out of the dimension and get killed the battle would of ended there.But Tobi could not rely on the kamui anymore so he used izanagi.Kakashi and tobi's eye is connected meaning they are going to the same place not to mention he only warped the resengan away tricking tobi into not using his kamui.Allowing naruto to hit him with the resengan

You should read my post more clearly dude you're talking about completely different things than I was.

In both cases the area tobi's body occupied in the original dimension are engulfed in pure energy (bijuu dama and unending explosion), meaning his entire body were warped to dimension #2, meaning using the "one jutsu" he could just instantly warp back to a different point within the 3 dimensional coordinate system back in dimension #1

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

I think I get what you're saying. When Tobi is seen teleporting someone or something (or himself) there are times when he appears in different places when he comes back. Examples of this would be during the fight at the summit when he saved Sasuke, and when he fought Minato. But now apparently it's all one jutsu, and it really doesn't make a whole lotta sense because making one part of your body intangible is not the same as teleporting to a different place. Technically speaking, based on what has been shown in the past he should have been able to simply teleport outside of the Bijuu-Dama as soon as he saw Naruto in the other dimension.

It is the same justu you keep forgetting his is a liar and master manipulator
instead of just making his whole body vanish he can also selectively choose
certain parts as well how are you not getting that the manga clearly states that he is NOT actually intangible just making certain parts go to the other dimension
You all seriously need to pay more attention

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

You should read my post more clearly dude you're talking about completely different things than I was.

In both cases the area tobi's body occupied in the original dimension are engulfed in pure energy (bijuu dama and unending explosion), meaning his entire body were warped to dimension #2, meaning using the "one jutsu" he could just instantly warp back to a different point within the 3 dimensional coordinate system back in dimension #1

It is the same justu you keep forgetting his is a liar and master manipulator
instead of just making his whole body vanish he can also selectively choose
certain parts as well how are you not getting that the manga clearly states that he is NOT actually intangible just making certain parts go to the other dimension
You all seriously need to pay more attention

Konan made him use izanagi which makes the fact konan had unrelenting explosions irrelevant completely irrelevant.Bijuu dama and resengan are going after him he chose to get hit by the resengan its the best choice if he wants to surrive.

 

[spartan_kenobi]

I think I get what you're saying. When Tobi is seen teleporting someone or something (or himself) there are times when he appears in different places when he comes back. Examples of this would be during the fight at the summit when he saved Sasuke, and when he fought Minato. But now apparently it's all one jutsu, and it really doesn't make a whole lotta sense because making one part of your body intangible is not the same as teleporting to a different place. Technically speaking, based on what has been shown in the past he should have been able to simply teleport outside of the Bijuu-Dama as soon as he saw Naruto in the other dimension.

EXACTLY. Since both in this case and during konan's explosion ambush his entire body is obviously warped into dimension #2, so he can deliberately choose the point of entry back to dimension #1.

The only reason he cant do this normally is because he usually only phase out part of his body/organ, so "relocating" those parts when he warps back would leave him in pieces in dimension #1

 

[spartan_kenobi]

It is the same justu you keep forgetting his is a liar and master manipulator
instead of just making his whole body vanish he can also selectively choose
certain parts as well how are you not getting that the manga clearly states that he is NOT actually intangible just making certain parts go to the other dimension
You all seriously need to pay more attention

Please slow down and read what i'm saying my good man. I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said. It is the suction = phase out explanation from kakashi/kishimoto that contradits tobi's previous feats of transporting himself and other objects instantly through suction: a feat indicating that THE POINT OF ENTRY back into dimension #1 is not dependent on its coordinate in dimension #2, even though the same does not go both ways.

Try to think on what "one jutsu" means in terms of tobi's teleportation.

And yes, the whole point of tobi teleporting part of his body in fights is to misdirect/manipulate his opponents into misjudging his abilites.