How does Hiruzen actually defeat Kakashi?

[Whalelord]

So first of all let me start by saying that before I joined this forum I never even thought Hiruzen is all that. I knew he was good (he was Hokage so of course he was reallt good) but I never saw him as top 10 or even 20 material. However for some reason people at NB seem to think he is like God tier or something. At first I thought it was a joke but no people actually believe he is greater than Madara, Nagato, Itachi, Sasuke, Minato and even So6P (no joke ). I've even some people think he could've stopped tobi the day the nine tails attacked. I just can't understand it. I personally feel Guy would take him, I mean this isn't part 1 anymore, so many shinobi have surpassed him IMO.

Anyway just needed to get that out of the way, now back on topic. Now before any fan boys start, I'm referring to the Hiruzen we have all seen fight, not prime, not hype cuz as far as I'm concerned that Hiruzen doesn't exist. Oh what the hell, so hiruzen fan boys don't cry you can use prime hiruzen if you want. I still don't see how Kakashi will lose.

In part 1 Hiruzen would have taken down Kakashi for sure, low-mid diff. But now from what I've seen from current kakashi I don't think its possible. Hiruzen uses fire and earth style jutsu, kakashi also uses earth and fire (I think). Even if kakashi doesn't technically have fire he has powerful water jutsu that can counter hiruzen's fire jutsu. Kakashi used lightning which also overcomes hiruzens earth. Some may say but "oh, hiruzen has mastered all jutsu of hidden leaf, so what - kakashi has over 1000 jutsu copied world wide. So in terms of ninjutsu kakashi clearly wins right.

Hiruzen was called the professer so I'm guessing he's incredibly smart, same goes for kakashi since he's regarded as a genius. From what I've seen Kakshi has more tactical strategic thinking in battle. Hiruzen may have more intellegence but I feel kakashi would outsmart him in a fight.

In terms of speed, you have to be stupid to say Hiruzen, I doubt prime hiruzen is faster than kakashi either. No matter how fast hiruzen may have been, kakashi's sharingan will always give him the advantage since he can read any of hiruzens movements.

I don't even think Kakashi needs Kamui to win this, Kakashi's abilities olone suggest to me that he would win in a battle to the death.

This is just my thoughts though, feel free to tell me otherwise but no fanboyish arguments such as because hiruzen is god of shinobi he will win (BS!!).

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Hiruzen gave the bold statement that he was the best out of the group even ,the uchiha clan was known to be the best of all. Kagami was there why didn't he state something? His clan is elite hiruzen even surpassing a sharingan user you think kakashi is really gonna give him that much problems.

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Even during Danzo death he claimed he could never catch up to Hiruzen and he had the power of the 1st hokages wood style and the power of atleast 11 sharingans

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It took Kakashi and his squad to stop and edo Zabuza & Haku and even in the end of midst he still got cut up and harmed. Were Hiruzen atleast took down to edo Kages and was still able to continued with less damage done to unlike kakashi

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Hiruzen was willing to go against 20 elite kumo bounty hunter ninja solo that proves he wasn't fightning no fodder during his times, name one character kakashi solo'd on his own? Zabuza would have killed him the 1st time if Naruto & Sasuke didn't jump in ,Deidara clone left kakashi in the hospital for a week,Kakuzu was ragging him up shikamaru ,Yamato, Naruto saved him, Deva & Asura pein spanked him even with the help of leaf ninjas to back him up.

 

[SuperFlyzzED]

Kakashi doesn't have fire style in the manga, he has Raiton (his main), Suiton and Doton. I think Kakashi is def Kage material and would be a challange for Hizuren.

Kakashi used Katon against Naruto and Sakura in the bell test. Are we missing something?

 

[FizzyDrink]

Oh, and on this, I think this whole discussion is ridiculous. We don't know enough about Hiruzen to prove whether he is stronger or weaker than Kakashi. We have to see him fight in his prme (like we're seeing Kakashi do) to fairly judge this. Since we can't he doesn't belong in these scenario's ever, and as a result, people gotta stop trying to compare him to others, because it will just start a flame war.

 

[warlee]

I'm still yet to see kakashi beat 3 kages together, so far he has been a ragdoll for his opponents except tobi which he looks better. Though based on feat you may say kakashi wins but again based on feat nagato/naruto will defeat hashirama

 

[warlee]

Kakashi used Katon against Naruto and Sakura in the bell test. Are we missing something?

you have been watching too much of anime that is filler not in the manga not cannon

 

[lol99]

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Hiruzen gave the bold statement that he was the best out of the group even ,the uchiha clan was known to be the best of all. Kagami was there why didn't he state something? His clan is elite hiruzen even surpassing a sharingan user you think kakashi is really gonna give him that much problems.

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Even during Danzo death he claimed he could never catch up to Hiruzen and he had the power of the 1st hokages wood style and the power of atleast 11 sharingans

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It took Kakashi and his squad to stop and edo Zabuza & Haku and even in the end of midst he still got cut up and harmed. Were Hiruzen atleast took down to edo Kages and was still able to continued with less damage done to unlike kakashi

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Hiruzen was willing to go against 20 elite kumo bounty hunter ninja solo that proves he wasn't fightning no fodder during his times, name one character kakashi solo'd on his own? Zabuza would have killed him the 1st time if Naruto & Sasuke didn't jump in ,Deidara clone left kakashi in the hospital for a week,Kakuzu was ragging him up shikamaru ,Yamato, Naruto saved him, Deva & Asura pein spanked him even with the help of leaf ninjas to back him up.

have you ever seen a ninja saying, omg i am going to die but i am still going to try fight an opponent?

no they don't go thinking that they are going to die and hiruzens statement means nothing he was trying to convince tobirama and others cause he wanted to do something for his team, you would naive to believe that hiruzen would come out alive from a fight which a space-time user couldn't win

there is a thing called self confidence

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is jiraiya> kisame + itachi???

again you would be naive to believe hiruzen can defeat danzo when he has izanagi not saying hiruzen would lose but it will be a close one, danzo's statement can be interpreted in many ways for example danzo could never become hokage and he tried this for so many years, this is one of the feats he could never achieve while hiruzen achieved

 

[Prince Charles]

based off feats kakashi wrecks old hiruzen.
battle tactics i wud give a slight battle tactics and battle wits edge to kakashi.

kakashi probably has the most versatile and wide range asronal in the manga.

he has earth style, water style, and lighting style thats a big advantage already?

plus his sharigan which gives him a more edge. hiruzen and kakashi in taijutsu is somewhat equal but kakashi has the slight advantage due to his sharigan.

not to mention his kamui is almost instant warping.

he was able to warp a lightning speed sussano arrow that proves his kamui warping time has gotten faster.

also plp shudnt use the edo hashi Nd edo tobirama to help hiruzen.

hashi and tobirama were playin with hiruze. they cud had easly killed him in the bringer of darkness if they were fighting for real.

ninjutsu wise would have to go to kakashi due his 3 elemental advantage.

hiruzens monkey shudnt be problem kakashi can summin his dogs as a back up

 

[Gold Lightning]

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Hiruzen gave the bold statement that he was the best out of the group even ,the uchiha clan was known to be the best of all. Kagami was there why didn't he state something? His clan is elite hiruzen even surpassing a sharingan user you think kakashi is really gonna give him that much problems.

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My point was that Kakashi is already faster than Hiruzen without sharingan so giving him the sharingan is just overkill as it makes it a whole lot more easier to predict/follow hiruzen's movements. So what if Kagami was there, show me a battle where Kagami has fought in. Lee owned Sasuke even with sharingan, why? Because lee was much faster. You don't know a thing about Kagami, he could've been weak like Obito. Just shut up.
Even during Danzo death he claimed he could never catch up to Hiruzen and he had the power of the 1st hokages wood style and the power of atleast 11 sharingans
When he wasn't referring to strength you know, do i really need to explain this to you. And if you think Hiruzen would beat Danzo with 11 sharingan's then you're nuts. Hiruzen is dead and therefore Danzo never got the chance to catch up to him. Hiruzen was loved by all in Konoha, everyone preferred him to danzo. It's not just strength he is talking about.

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It took Kakashi and his squad to stop and edo Zabuza & Haku and even in the end of midst he still got cut up and harmed. Were Hiruzen atleast took down to edo Kages and was still able to continued with less damage done to unlike kakashi
Because Haku got in his way and retricted his movement, did Kakashi die? Heck No. He defeated Zabuza again, except this time it took 5 mins. So what if he got cut, he was mist and zabuza was saved. Besides Kabuto was the one controlling everything so it doesn't make much difference anyway.

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Hiruzen was willing to go against 20 elite kumo bounty hunter ninja solo that proves he wasn't fightning no fodder during his times, name one character kakashi solo'd on his own? Zabuza would have killed him the 1st time if Naruto & Sasuke didn't jump in ,Deidara clone left kakashi in the hospital for a week,Kakuzu was ragging him up shikamaru ,Yamato, Naruto saved him, Deva & Asura pein spanked him even with the help of leaf ninjas to back him up.

He was willing to take on 20 elites but even the 2nd Hokage knew he would die if he did. Hiruzen wasn't going to win, he was young and cocky but was a true ninja and was willing to sacrifice his life.

Your arguments are so stupid, Kakashi was in hospital because of chakra exhaustion, he was still getting the hang of kamui. He took diedara's arm clean off and neji, lee, tenten, guy, sakura, naruto, chiyo and gaara from being blown up by warping deidara's explosion with kamui. Please don't make up BS. Kakashi was tired, he had to face Hidan, 3 of Kakazu's hearts at the same time, then save Shikamaru, Choji and Ino from being killed by Kakazu's lightning by taking the hit head on. Kakuzu has decades of fighting experience than Kakashi yet Kakashi killed his first heart. If Kakuzu was normal kakashi would've killed him from beginning.

Finally, Kakashi had Deva path helpless and was about to kill him but Asura got in the way. At least he killed Asura path plus deva was the strongest pain so I don't see how that makes kakashi look bad. You cant tell me that if Hiruzen was still kage and went up against deva path pain that he would survive.

Reply in bold

 

[Gold Lightning]

have you ever seen a ninja saying, omg i am going to die but i am still going to try fight an opponent?

no they don't go thinking that they are going to die and hiruzens statement means nothing he was trying to convince tobirama and others cause he wanted to do something for his team, you would naive to believe that hiruzen would come out alive from a fight which a space-time user couldn't win

there is a thing called self confidence

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is jiraiya> kisame + itachi???

again you would be naive to believe hiruzen can defeat danzo when he has izanagi not saying hiruzen would lose but it will be a close one, danzo's statement can be interpreted in many ways for example danzo could never become hokage and he tried this for so many years, this is one of the feats he could never achieve while hiruzen achieved

rep plus, you explained everything better than I did.

LMAO at Hiruzen being able to beat Izanagi Danzo - that is blasphemy.

 

[Owarij]

have you ever seen a ninja saying, omg i am going to die but i am still going to try fight an opponent?

no they don't go thinking that they are going to die and hiruzens statement means nothing he was trying to convince tobirama and others cause he wanted to do something for his team, you would naive to believe that hiruzen would come out alive from a fight which a space-time user couldn't win

there is a thing called self confidence

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is jiraiya> kisame + itachi???

again you would be naive to believe hiruzen can defeat danzo when he has izanagi not saying hiruzen would lose but it will be a close one, danzo's statement can be interpreted in many ways for example danzo could never become hokage and he tried this for so many years, this is one of the feats he could never achieve while hiruzen achieved

Danzo never mentioned hokage or anything like that.... he himself said no matter what he did he could never catch up to hiruzen..... what the hell do you think he's talking about...
When naruto says he can't catch up to sasuke wtf do you think he's talking about?

 

[SuperFlyzzED]

based off feats kakashi wrecks old hiruzen.
battle tactics i wud give a slight battle tactics and battle wits edge to kakashi.

kakashi probably has the most versatile and wide range asronal in the manga.

he has earth style, water style, fire style lighting style thats a big advantage already?

plus his sharigan which gives him a more edge. hiruzen and kakashi in taijutsu is somewhat equal but kakashi has the slight advantage due to his sharigan.

not to mention his kamui is almost instant warping.

he was able to warp a lightning speed sussano arrow that proves his kamui warping time has gotten faster.

also plp shudnt use the edo hashi Nd edo tobirama to help hiruzen.

hashi and tobirama were playin with hiruze. they cud had easly killed him in the bringer of darkness if they were fighting for real.

ninjutsu wise would have to go to kakashi due his 3 elemental advantage.

hiruzens monkey shudnt be problem kakashi can summin his dogs as a back up

@bold

arsenal
i added fire style because he did do Katon in Part II
You spelled sharigan twice, instead of sharingan.
instant? They were coming his way. He can warp instant, when he focuses it on someone.
You spelled sussano, instead of susanoo
You spelled shudnt twice, instead of shouldn't
You spelled Hiruze, instead Hiruzen.
You spelled easly, instead of easily.
You spelled summin, instead of summon.

Wow and you call me illogical with no comebacks.

 

[lol99]

Danzo never mentioned hokage or anything like that.... he himself said no matter what he did he could never catch up to hiruzen..... what the hell do you think he's talking about...
When naruto says he can't catch up to sasuke wtf do you think he's talking about?

you actually believe

Kotoamatsukami + izanagi + mokuton < hiruzen

when you yourself have claimed shisui>hashirama just because of kotoamatsukami?

 

[Owarij]

you actually believe

Kotoamatsukami + izanagi + mokuton < hiruzen

when you yourself have claimed shisui>hashirama just because of kotoamatsukami?

If danzo gets ka off at the very start of the match, he wins, If enma gets called out, and enma is someone who knows hiruzen like the back of his hand, he'll realize something is up easily, and suspect genjutsu

?? what moukoton?? danzo can't control the moukoton part of his body that great... infact he constantly needs chakra to just supress it and keep it from taking him over..

 

[Gold Lightning]

Oh, and on this, I think this whole discussion is ridiculous. We don't know enough about Hiruzen to prove whether he is stronger or weaker than Kakashi. We have to see him fight in his prme (like we're seeing Kakashi do) to fairly judge this. Since we can't he doesn't belong in these scenario's ever, and as a result, people gotta stop trying to compare him to others, because it will just start a flame war.

The point of this thread was to compare current kakashi to old hiruzen (what we saw in part 1). If people cannot even do that like civilized people then they shouldn't reply. I gave a pretty decent explanation in my original post I think.

I'm still yet to see kakashi beat 3 kages together, so far he has been a ragdoll for his opponents except tobi which he looks better. Though based on feat you may say kakashi wins but again based on feat nagato/naruto will defeat hashirama

But we don't know a thing about Hashirama because we haven't seen him in a real fight.

And even you gotta admit Kakashi has been trolled quite a few times. It looks like Kishi is finally giving him recognition.

 

[Prince Charles]

@bold

arsenal
i added fire style because he did do Katon in Part II
You spelled sharigan twice, instead of sharingan.
instant? They were coming his way. He can warp instant, when he focuses it on someone.
You spelled sussano, instead of susanoo
You spelled shudnt twice, instead of shouldn't
You spelled Hiruze, instead Hiruzen.
You spelled easly, instead of easily.
You spelled summin, instead of summon.

Wow and you call me illogical with no comebacks.

im on a phone dum ass its hard to type and stop replying to me if u dnt like me.

i added fire style by accident.

 

[lol99]

If danzo gets ka off at the very start of the match, he wins, If enma gets called out, and enma is someone who knows hiruzen like the back of his hand, he'll realize something is up easily, and suspect genjutsu

?? what moukoton?? danzo can't control the moukoton part of his body that great... infact he constantly needs chakra to just supress it and keep it from taking him over..

nice i will remember it

anyway they both have been said to have been rivals and a win isn't guaanteed for danzo i argee but danzo too mostly seems to be a close-mid range fighter like hiruzen

i'm out :noc:

 

[Gold Lightning]

If danzo gets ka off at the very start of the match, he wins, If enma gets called out, and enma is someone who knows hiruzen like the back of his hand, he'll realize something is up easily, and suspect genjutsu

?? what moukoton?? danzo can't control the moukoton part of his body that great... infact he constantly needs chakra to just supress it and keep it from taking him over..

Ok now I know you are just like the rest of the Hiruzen bum lickers. Wow, I cannot believe you just made a senseless comment like that. I am not taking any of your comments serious again.

You actually believe Hiruzen can take Danzo on, heeeeeeeeell to the nooooo!!!

He may not have wood style but it isn't needed. You really think enma is going to be the key to this battle. Besides how does this help in the case of Izanagi. Danzo can spam this 10-11 times (can't remember the exact count). Hiruzen is not gonna kill Danzo 10 times in a row before Danzo manages a kill.

Sharingan already helps Danzou enough in close combat. There is no excuse for thinking Hiruzen can actually win, Danzo is OP as heck.

 

[ANBU Kakashi23]

I like your arguments, very logical. With regard to your Kakuzu statement, Kakuzu has more fighting experience than Kakashi and Hiruzen combined. Also take into account that Kakashi was taking on 3 hearts and Hidan before Kakuzu, escaping multiple hits from wind bullets, having to counter zabuza's lightning and much more - Kakashi was exhausted by the time he started fighting Kakazu.

Also I like your points about the genjutsu thing, although individually none will affect kakashi. Why, well a vision genjutsu doesn't hinder kakashi's sense of smell and tracking abilities, a sound genjutsu doesn't affect the sharingans vision and smell (it may only temporarily disorientate kakashi for a bit) and a smell genjutsu (don't even think that exits xd) will not affect his eyes and hearing. So Hiruzen's only option is to combine different genjutsu if he can.

The whole ninjutsu thing is the main debate, both know a lot of jutsu however kakashi can counter both of hiruzen's elemental nature since kakashi's water > Hiruzen's fire and Kakashi's lightning > Hiruzen's earth. Obviously Hiruzen isn't limited to just elemental jutsu but neither is kakashi and I'm sure kakashi can copy most of hiruzen's jutsu anyway.

I will always say Kakashi will beat Hiruzen in taijutsu only because of the sharingan and speed advantage together. With Enma is much more difficult, kakashi would have to hurt enma - his best bet is to electrocute enma in rod mode I guess. That's of he can.

- true in terms of experience kakuzu probably has the most in naruto-verse, but you see my point, that even with the sharingan and none of the hearts interferring for their taijutsu exchange, kakuzu was still pressing kakashi showing that the sharingan doesnt automatically mean a win with regards to taijutsu skills even if it can predict moves, sasuke vs lee taught us all that, now factoring hiruzens probable use of enma, a shape changing weapon as hard as diamonds, and the fact that he wont get as easily winded per part 2 power increases, i can see kakashi being pressed by him as well

- with the genjutsu i think youre making an error in terms of how genjutsu works, the manner in which genjutsu is inserted into the opponent chakra system is not a direct correlation to what senses that genjutsu effects, its simply the type of genjutsu being used that determines the entry point for the enemies chakra, eyes , ears, what have you, but once you have you chakra inserted the sense manipulation is dependent on your skill with genjutsu control, which is why even when sasuke and itachi theoretically use the same genjutsu, the effects are different because of different levels of mastery and control , so given that i feel hiruzen can definitely have an edge with his plausible genjutsu skills

- very true, i feel like kakashi has a distinct elemental advantage along with sharingan analysis of hiruzen's ninjutsu, and considering even with hidan preoccupying him he was still able to avoid direct hits with A rank elemental manipulations

in the end you have to realize enma is a big part of hiruzens hand to hand, so we cant even argue about hiruzen without it, but even with that hiruzen would still be able to hold his own.

 

[Whalelord]

He was willing to take on 20 elites but even the 2nd Hokage knew he would die if he did. Hiruzen wasn't going to win, he was young and cocky but was a true ninja and was willing to sacrifice his life.

Your arguments are so stupid, Kakashi was in hospital because of chakra exhaustion, he was still getting the hang of kamui. He took diedara's arm clean off and neji, lee, tenten, guy, sakura, naruto, chiyo and gaara from being blown up by warping deidara's explosion with kamui. Please don't make up BS. Kakashi was tired, he had to face Hidan, 3 of Kakazu's hearts at the same time, then save Shikamaru, Choji and Ino from being killed by Kakazu's lightning by taking the hit head on. Kakuzu has decades of fighting experience than Kakashi yet Kakashi killed his first heart. If Kakuzu was normal kakashi would've killed him from beginning.

Finally, Kakashi had Deva path helpless and was about to kill him but Asura got in the way. At least he killed Asura path plus deva was the strongest pain so I don't see how that makes kakashi look bad. You cant tell me that if Hiruzen was still kage and went up against deva path pain that he would survive.

My argument is stupid or more like your logic

Deidara stay up 3 days and 3 nights sealing the 1 tailed into the gedo statue you dont think he was tired even while fightning sand ninja's and the kazekage? Kakashi was in hospital because of chakra exhaustion, he was still getting the hang of kamui. The reason he used it was because he had no other way to get out of the explosion path.

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Your saying Kakashi was tired then what were Hidan & Kakazu they fought with asuma & shikamaru Etc then had to stay up 6 days 6 nights sealing the 2 tails & 3 tails into the gedo statue then to being ambushed right again.

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Kakashi began fightning kakuzu on his own at a point and time quit the bullshit it was a team effort at that point but when Shikamaru saves kakashi now all of a sudden it isn't mention

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Deva & Asura became 2 against 8 and still lost :sy: Kakashi never solo'd no No kage level ninja on his own

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Kakashi fanboys

have you ever seen a ninja saying, omg i am going to die but i am still going to try fight an opponent?

no they don't go thinking that they are going to die and hiruzens statement means nothing he was trying to convince tobirama and others cause he wanted to do something for his team, you would naive to believe that hiruzen would come out alive from a fight which a space-time user couldn't win

there is a thing called self confidence

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is jiraiya> kisame + itachi???

again you would be naive to believe hiruzen can defeat danzo when he has izanagi not saying hiruzen would lose but it will be a close one, danzo's statement can be interpreted in many ways for example danzo could never become hokage and he tried this for so many years, this is one of the feats he could never achieve while hiruzen achieved

No really Hiruzen wouldn't make it out alive i didn't know xd show me were i said he would of made it out? I stated he was willing to fight quit putting words in my mouth

The statement can be what? Hiruzen and Danzo have been rival in everything please, Like Danzo stated before he could never catch up to Hiruzen

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Tobirama Space-Time jutsu must not be impressive because if that was Minato everybody would have been safe sound in the village , Word of confidence you can see but nobody responded when he said he was the best so come on now you know clearly what that mean.

 

[Gold Lightning]

My argument is stupid or more like your logic

Deidara stay up 3 days and 3 nights sealing the 1 tailed into the gedo statue you dont think he was tired even while fightning sand ninja's and the kazekage? Kakashi was in hospital because of chakra exhaustion, he was still getting the hang of kamui. The reason he used it was because he had no other way to get out of the explosion path.

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Your saying Kakashi was tired then what were Hidan & Kakazu they fought with asuma & shikamaru Etc then had to stay up 6 days 6 nights sealing the 2 tails & 3 tails into the gedo statue then to being ambushed right again.

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Kakashi began fightning kakuzu on his own at a point and time quit the bullshit it was a team effort at that point but when Shikamaru saves kakashi now all of a sudden it isn't mention

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Deva & Asura became 2 against 8 and still lost :sy: Kakashi never solo'd no No kage level ninja on his own

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Kakashi fanboys



No really Hiruzen wouldn't make it out alive i didn't know xd show me were i said he would of made it out? I stated he was willing to fight quit putting words in my mouth

Cannot even be bothered to argue you with, your arguments are so poor, your logic is awful. I hope someone else has the energy to reply to you cu I'm tired and it's late.