I don't think zabuza gets enough credit for out-smarting kakashi....

ThisOneDude

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There's varying levels of intelligence. You can be intelligent, but if you die, then obviously the person you were fighting was more intelligent than you, because you died. It's simple as that. So yes Zabuza was powerful, but not as powerful as Kakashi, as Kakashi is still alive, and Zab isnt. Like I said, you couldn't have outsmarted someone if you're dead.
No no no u dont know what ur talking about dude, y do u keep thinkingabout just 1 person? Zabuza outsmarted Kakashi, HOWEVER, there were 3 more ninja there who overpowered him and stopped him because he got to cocky and underestimated them, Zabuza could of just sliced there head off instead of kicking them and throwing them, he was just toying with them saying there not real ninja
 

Mrmojo8484

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There's varying levels of intelligence. You can be intelligent, but if you die, then obviously the person you were fighting was more intelligent than you, because you died. It's simple as that. So yes Zabuza was powerful, but not as powerful as Kakashi, as Kakashi is still alive, and Zab isnt. Like I said, you couldn't have outsmarted someone if you're dead.
So according to your stupid logic, again, a rock has the potential to be smarter than you. If a rock kills you, that means the rock is more intelligent than you.
 

Fatalmercy

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According to your logic, Albert Einstien is alive as we speak. So are the Wright brothers. The Mayans. The Indians. George Washinton. Abe Licoln. Everyone smart is immortal.

That makes no sense. I said you couldn't have out-smarted someone if you're dead. Bee hiding in a tentacle is outsmarting someone. Surprising someone/Catching them off guard isn't out-smarting someone. Zabuza is dead, and Kakashi isn't, so how did Zabuza outsmart him?
 

Fatalmercy

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So according to your stupid logic, again, a rock has the potential to be smarter than you. If a rock kills you, that means the rock is more intelligent than you.

You're taking it to extremes because you lack material. It obviously refers to combat. A genius in combat will be defeated in combat, by a more genius person.
 

Fatalmercy

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So according to your stupid logic, again, a rock has the potential to be smarter than you. If a rock kills you, that means the rock is more intelligent than you.

And if you get killed by an inanimate object, how smart does that make you? If you couldn't avoid the rock, you're slow, either mentally or physically.

I can be overly sarcastic too.
 

Mrmojo8484

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That makes no sense. I said you couldn't have out-smarted someone if you're dead. Bee hiding in a tentacle is outsmarting someone. Surprising someone/Catching them off guard isn't out-smarting someone. Zabuza is dead, and Kakashi isn't, so how did Zabuza outsmart him?
lol...I guess we missed the whole 10 minute conversation between zabuza and kakashi before they fought. How in the hell did he suprise him/catch him off guard? Your going up a against a S-rank criminal/ known killer. He was called the demon of the mist for goodness sake. If you see him and you still let him "catch you off guard",knowing all I stated above, you got out smarted.
 

Mrmojo8484

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And if you get killed by an inanimate object, how smart does that make you? If you couldn't avoid the rock, you're slow, either mentally or physically.

I can be overly sarcastic too.
Heres another flaw in your logic: Naruto, who had the lowest test scores went on to beat kiba, neji and gaara....all 3 had higher scores than him. Whats your logic say about this?
 

Fatalmercy

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lol...I guess we missed the whole 10 minute conversation between zabuza and kakashi before they fought. How in the hell did he suprise him/catch him off guard? Your going up a against a S-rank criminal/ known killer. He was called the demon of the mist for goodness sake. If you see him and you still let him "catch you off guard",knowing all I stated above, you got out smarted.

Underestimating someone is different from being overpowered. From the Naruto Wiki in Zabuza's page:


"Soon after the battle began, Zabuza managed to catch Kakashi off guard, and trapped him with his Water Prison Technique. Needing to stay with Kakashi to keep him imprisoned, Zabuza sent a water clone to kill Tazuna and the rest of Kakashi's team, believing it to be a simple matter. However, Naruto Uzumaki created a plan and with the help of Sasuke Uchiha, managed to sneak up on Zabuza, forcing him to release Kakashi. Kakashi and Zabuza resumed their battle, though Kakashi's Sharingan quickly gave him the upper hand. Copying Zabuza's Water Release: Great Waterfall Technique..."

It says A) Kakashi was caught off guard. B) Zabuza was overwhelmed with Kakashi so he sent clones to deal with the others. C) Kakashi used Sharingan and owned him. Kakashi wasn't even close to his level now.
 

Fatalmercy

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Heres another flaw in your logic: Naruto, who had the lowest test scores went on to beat kiba, neji and gaara....all 3 had higher scores than him. Whats your logic say about this?
What I said before, that you refuse to read, that Naruto is more of a combat genius than the others. Papers don't determine someones success.
 

Mrmojo8484

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Underestimating someone is different from being overpowered. From the Naruto Wiki in Zabuza's page:


"Soon after the battle began, Zabuza managed to catch Kakashi off guard, and trapped him with his Water Prison Technique. Needing to stay with Kakashi to keep him imprisoned, Zabuza sent a water clone to kill Tazuna and the rest of Kakashi's team, believing it to be a simple matter. However, Naruto Uzumaki created a plan and with the help of Sasuke Uchiha, managed to sneak up on Zabuza, forcing him to release Kakashi. Kakashi and Zabuza resumed their battle, though Kakashi's Sharingan quickly gave him the upper hand. Copying Zabuza's Water Release: Great Waterfall Technique..."

It says A) Kakashi was caught off guard. B) Zabuza was overwhelmed with Kakashi so he sent clones to deal with the others. C) Kakashi used Sharingan and owned him. Kakashi wasn't even close to his level now.
lol....really? The data book though?

Lets use a little common sense here. If your in a sword fight with someone who has made a name for themselves killing and defeating other people and you KNOW you have to fight this guy, are you going to put your guard down and get caught off guard?
 

Fatalmercy

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lol....really? The data book though?

Lets use a little common sense here. If your in a sword fight with someone who has made a name for themselves killing and defeating other people and you KNOW you have to fight this guy, are you going to put your guard down and get caught off guard?
If I don't know an opponent's moves, then yes, i'll be caught off guard, because I don't know whats coming... After Kakashi used the Sharingan, its a wrap from there.
 

Mrmojo8484

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What I said before, that you refuse to read, that Naruto is more of a combat genius than the others. Papers don't determine someones success.
Another flaw in your logic: Sasuke vs Kakashi fight obviously showed Sheer power>intellect.

I believe kakashi was easily the smarter ninja in this fight but there is no way he can win this fight.
 

Fatalmercy

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Another flaw in your logic: Sasuke vs Kakashi fight obviously showed Sheer power>intellect.

I believe kakashi was easily the smarter ninja in this fight but there is no way he can win this fight.

So you're saying Sasuke is dumb? Sasuke is considered to be one of, if not THE smartest and most powerful ninja of his class. Sasuke is just as smart, and he is indeed more powerful. You need to learn techniques in order to use them, so if someone knows better techniques than you, and uses them effectively, by kicking your ass, then they are, by default, smarter than you, as far as combat goes.
 
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Mrmojo8484

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So you're saying Sasuke is dumb? Sasuke is considered to be one of, it not THE smartest and most powerful ninja of his class. Sasuke is just as smart, and he is indeed more powerful. You need to learn techniques in order to use them, so if someone knows better techniques than you, and uses them effectively, by kicking your ass, then they are, by default, smarter than you, as far as combat goes.
Now your putting words in my mouth. Kakashi has way more experience, he knows his student and he fought Sasukes brother, itachi twice.

I think kakashis battle experience alone makes him smarter. Sasuke could have been as dumb as a brick and still won. He could have spammed 1 technique, susanoos arrow, and still won. Even with kakashis tons of exp, thousands of jutsu and smarts, he just had no counter for 1 jutsu.
 

Mrmojo8484

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Heres 2 meanings of outsmart:

Beat through cleverness and wit.
Defeat by more skillful maneuvering.

Zabuza, knowing kakashi would create a water clone, created 2. Which led to kakashi getting captured in the water prison.

Your probably going to say 'but zabuza is dead'. While thats true, in that scuffle as I said, he out smarted kakashi.
 

Fatalmercy

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Now your putting words in my mouth. Kakashi has way more experience, he knows his student and he fought Sasukes brother, itachi twice.

I think kakashis battle experience alone makes him smarter. Sasuke could have been as dumb as a brick and still won. He could have spammed 1 technique, susanoos arrow, and still won. Even with kakashis tons of exp, thousands of jutsu and smarts, he just had no counter for 1 jutsu.
Sorry for putting words in your mouth.

Kakashi would have defeated Sasuke if he was dumb as a brick. If Sasuke was dumb as a brick, he wouldn't know how to use Susanoo, or its arrows. Only a combat genius/ someone with high intelligence would be able to effectively use such a technique. Combat experience has nothing to do with combat genius. Let me use this example:

Say you're in a fight with someone who has a gun, and you are a trained soldier, and your opponent is a thug, not trained in combat. On an even playing field, you would whoop him. But let's give you a knife, and him a gun, and quite a good distance between you two. If he knows how to use a gun properly, chances are hes going to beat you. Making him smarter in combat than you, because he brought a gun to a knife fight, and knows how to use it properly. (Power+Intelligence)

Now, if he doesn't know how to use it, he misses his shots/ you dodge the bullets, due to your training, and you successfully knife him, you are smarter than him in combat, even though he was more powerful, you still overcame him. (Intelligence)

If that doesn't make sense, Kakashi is more experienced than Sasuke, But Sasuke is smarter combat wise, because he knows more techniques, (more powerful ones too), and can use them effectively. If Sasuke spammed Chidori like he did as a kid vs Kakashi, he would have ended up dead. Brute Force will never win. But Intelligence AND brute force, will always win over just intelligence.
 
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Fatalmercy

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Heres 2 meanings of outsmart:

Beat through cleverness and wit.
Defeat by more skillful maneuvering.

Zabuza, knowing kakashi would create a water clone, created 2. Which led to kakashi getting captured in the water prison.

Your probably going to say 'but zabuza is dead'. While thats true, in that scuffle as I said, he out smarted kakashi.
Ok well then that's a different story. Making the thread title "Zabuza needs more credit because he out-smarted Kakashi once" would be more appropriate. He did outsmart him in that one instance, but Kakashi is superior to him, as he outsmarted Zabuza after using Sharingan (You can call that power, if you want, knowing how to use techs is power, hence intelligence). So Kakashi is smarter than Zabuza, but Zabuza did indeed out-smart Kakashi once, but that's not saying much, as Naruto did to Kakashi as well, during the bell test after he came back from Jiraya's training.
 

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Zabuza didn't have to bother about his teammates but Kakashi had to......
N bdw Kakashi can beat sasuke(for all those who say otherwise)
 
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