Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

[naruttebayo]

this is hard to decide really when u r comparing two people with less info , but since u asked me to comment on it i will really put some effort .

looking at the 1st glance 2nd mizukage sure looks stronger . but he might not be the obvious winner here , and there are so many reasons .

ur analysis is all about the abilities aka jutsus , but a winner is not decided by the shear terms ability , but the effectiveness of the abilities .

Spoiler

lets talk about it in a different way
when you look at the shinobi's from the other ninja villages (other than konoha) they look more powerful because of there wicked techniques (ex. dust release , lightning armer ) while konoha shinobis seem to rely on basic jutsus . yet konoha is considered the strongest . what could be the reason for it .

it's simple
1st they work hard on the basic techniques like replacement , body flicker ie. genin level technique .and they utilize them very effectively in any battle .

2nd they think heavily rely on strategies and planning rather than powerful jutsu . you can see even a powerful ninja like itachi , sasuke , kakashi using basic techniques very effectively using their brain in any battle

3rd konoha shinobi's are taught use their brain to the fullest , kakashi saying to naruto a ninja should think beyond normal .

what i want to say is ^^ konoha shinobi use there abilities to the fullest
, also they are more focused .

so lets see how tobirama counters 2nd mizukage .

insignificant jutsus aside the main problem will be the teleportation thingy u are talking about . however tobirama is a s/t user now it will come to the reflexes . cuz no matter how wicked jutsu mizukage uses his physical structure basically is flash and bone . when he is teleporting inside the water he would be intangible but whenever he will appear he will be flash and bone again (similar as tobi).

mizukage's water techniques won't be much effective cuz tobirama himself is water nature type , i mean he can't be simply defeated with water prison he will manipulate water according to himself .

also tobirama can use edo tensei to create a hindrance so mizukage won't be able to concentrate on tobirama , whenever there is an opening mizukage will be done .

however no battle is 100% win or lose . i'll give it to tobirama 6/4 .

 

[Uchiha Josephus]

Well it seems that I have gotten here far too late to make any real impact on the overall outcome of this thread.

However, I would say I have to agree with most that 1) the Mizukage is a beast, no question about that, and 2) We do not know enough about the 2nd Hokage to make a fair and unbiased comparison with the Mizukage. Would be pretty awesome to see though

 

[GenKiDama]

close one, still going by feats and whatnot 2nd mizukage should win

 

[AWSUM SID]

The points you brought up show that the mizukage has diverse techniques than tobirama but keep in mind that you are comparing what was shown in the first arc with the second arc and that characters shown in first arc only should not be compares with characters in the 2nd arc. I have already made a thread about this. The first arc is based on more realistic style of martial arts and the second arc has more of powerful ninjutsu techs.
However if i were to still compare then obviously tobirama<<<<<<<< 2nd mizukage. i have also given it a 5stars.

 

[TiddlySkydiver]

Very thought out, well done.
Imo, the second mizukage would win unless Tobirama had intel on him and also was able to edo a few high ranking fire or lightning release shinobi.

 

[VisionOfDisorder]

This is very well put together yo, took a while to read through and even longer to put into play in my mind. All in all I have to admit, based solely on what we absolutely know for sure about Tobirama Senju, Hozuki Mizukage has him beat here. IMO This matchup would come down to a number of critical points. One of which involves an interesting connection I made while browsing wiki pages for this thread.

The first and most obvious point, as I'm sure others have mentioned, is whether or not you choose to count The Sword Of The Thunder God as an acceptable tool, as it only appeared in the anime but was directly named as the sword of the second Hokage. The weapon's electrical nature would paralyze Mizukage even in liquid form as demonstrated with Raiton jutsu here by Suigetsu: (Small, bottom center panel.)

Spoiler

You must be registered for see links

This was just from a stray burst of Raikage's chakra, but Suigetsu is also nowhere near the strength of Mizukage. The second point I mean to bring up, is the nature of Tobirama's S/T Jutsu. An interesting relationship to make is that Tobirama could have not one, but TWO connections to the term "Thunder God", the first being the fabled sword he once wielded, the second being his proficiency with S/T (some believe that this is in fact, the original form of Minato's "Flying Thunder God" technique. If thi helps at all I will inlude this intereting fact about the second hokage:

Tobirama' (扉間) means 'the space between two doors'. 'Doors' (扉, tobira)

Anyway, deep down I believe that the Second Hokage would win this, but I admit that this is based on hype and my own assumptions of what Tobirama's powers/tools really were.

Based on your argument, (Which is very solid and includes all aspects of Tobirama's fighting style that we know as absolute fact.) I give it to you. There is no definite way to say that Tobirama could win without delving into these assumptions, hype, and anime-only filler info.

Awesome thread, Knight. +rep

 

[Negative Knight]

This is very well put together yo, took a while to read through and even longer to put into play in my mind. All in all I have to admit, based solely on what we absolutely know for sure about Tobirama Senju, Hozuki Mizukage has him beat here. IMO This matchup would come down to a number of critical points. One of which involves an interesting connection I made while browsing wiki pages for this thread.

The first and most obvious point, as I'm sure others have mentioned, is whether or not you choose to count The Sword Of The Thunder God as an acceptable tool, as it only appeared in the anime but was directly named as the sword of the second Hokage. The weapon's electrical nature would paralyze Mizukage even in liquid form as demonstrated with Raiton jutsu here by Suigetsu: (Small, bottom center panel.)

Spoiler

You must be registered for see links

This was just from a stray burst of Raikage's chakra, but Suigetsu is also nowhere near the strength of Mizukage. The second point I mean to bring up, is the nature of Tobirama's S/T Jutsu. An interesting relationship to make is that Tobirama could have not one, but TWO connections to the term "Thunder God", the first being the fabled sword he once wielded, the second being his proficiency with S/T (some believe that this is in fact, the original form of Minato's "Flying Thunder God" technique. If thi helps at all I will inlude this intereting fact about the second hokage:

Tobirama' (扉間) means 'the space between two doors'. 'Doors' (扉, tobira)

Anyway, deep down I believe that the Second Hokage would win this, but I admit that this is based on hype and my own assumptions of what Tobirama's powers/tools really were.

Based on your argument, (Which is very solid and includes all aspects of Tobirama's fighting style that we know as absolute fact.) I give it to you. There is no definite way to say that Tobirama could win without delving into these assumptions, hype, and anime-only filler info.

Awesome thread, Knight. +rep

Thanks man

but there have been many counter arguments on how Tobirama could win

-Controlling the Mizukage in liquid state, sepearting him into water blobs and scatter them, though this is a assumption.

I'm not sure if the Sword of the Thunder God can be counted but i honestly think the anime delves into the manga further so it might be able to be used by the Second Hokage.

 

[Fear My eyes]

Good read , although its (with no option ofcourse) one sided. We simply dont know enough about tobirama to judge this fight.

I personally am a huge fan of the second mizukage. 2nd fave!

Noticed some people are saying second mizukage has the same abilities as suigetsu?
Where are people getting this information because i may have missed it somewhere along the lines.

All in all im sure we'll soon hear a little more about hashirama / tobirama when the Uchiha story unfolds for sasuke, Until then I cant partake in such threads because its ignorant lol.

 

[6pathofpain]

Sword and Darkness are anime only, not manga. He does not have either

says you

 

[Nolexion]

We don't know anything about The Space ninjutsu of the second but you put a lot of work in to this so if I knew what it meant and how to do it I would +rep

 

[gutSy Sage]

you have some good stuff here. i really think the two would go down together, they are both powerful kages

 

[RinneArtist]

But its the thing you don't know about your opponent that is most deadly
and we don't know what else he had in his arsenal.

 

[Chaoz]

Hmmm... Good thread, alot of good, organanized info.
I want tobirama to win, based on facts here, the mizukage should win, but considering everything wrve been given with the manga n facts, this could go either way, personally I think theyre about equal and who can last the longest.that or who manages to get the upper hand, but that wld depend on the usage of their abilities.to those asking why he is like suigetsu, I believe its cuz hes part of the hozuki clan. Good match. Two nearly identical opponents.

 

[madara san]

Appears I'm a bit late too. Seems as if you've accepted the difficulties that the Hokage can create for the Mizukage. I will say that the post is extremely well thought out and thorough, you've been creative and most impressively gracious in your comments. + rep my friend!

On the matter of this battle, as effective as the Mizukage should be against Tobirama's water jutsus, i'm not sure he could withstand his other abilities, namely the edo tensei.
Also, I'm not convinced as to how fast he could move through the water. Even though he can transform into a liquid state, his molecules remain his and don't just dilute into the water source. If they did it would take time for enough to come together in order to reform into a more solid state to launch an attack. I would imagine he moves as if in a current perhaps; it can be fast, but I would have to give Tobirama and his S/T techniques the upper hand in speed.
Further to that, given I think the Mizukage has to maintain control over his liquid state I would contend the assumption that the Hokage could manipulate his body to the extent of literally breaking him apart (Although it is a nice idea). He could cause him to move, yet he would remain invulnerable to physical attacks.
Without the advantage of terrain, as much as I respect the strength of the Second Mizukage (not least the fact he took down Mu!), I don't see him defeating Tobirama that often
[obviously I realise the lack of solid information isn't there to verify this, but hype does have to play a part at this point]

 

[Negative Knight]

Appears I'm a bit late too. Seems as if you've accepted the difficulties that the Hokage can create for the Mizukage. I will say that the post is extremely well thought out and thorough, you've been creative and most impressively gracious in your comments. + rep my friend!

On the matter of this battle, as effective as the Mizukage should be against Tobirama's water jutsus, i'm not sure he could withstand his other abilities, namely the edo tensei.
Also, I'm not convinced as to how fast he could move through the water. Even though he can transform into a liquid state, his molecules remain his and don't just dilute into the water source. If they did it would take time for enough to come together in order to reform into a more solid state to launch an attack. I would imagine he moves as if in a current perhaps; it can be fast, but I would have to give Tobirama and his S/T techniques the upper hand in speed.
Further to that, given I think the Mizukage has to maintain control over his liquid state I would contend the assumption that the Hokage could manipulate his body to the extent of literally breaking him apart (Although it is a nice idea). He could cause him to move, yet he would remain invulnerable to physical attacks.
Without the advantage of terrain, as much as I respect the strength of the Second Mizukage (not least the fact he took down Mu!), I don't see him defeating Tobirama that often
[obviously I realise the lack of solid information isn't there to verify this, but hype does have to play a part at this point]

That's a very logical argument from you, it seems more logical that he moves as current rather diluting his cells though its certainly possible, to confirm this we need to re-watch the Suigetsu vs Killer Bee fight and see how Suigetsu became a massive body of water.


Also thanks for the +rep, i gave you it too for the great post and logical counter argument

Yeah i agree Edo tensei would be a difficult thing indeed but the Second Mizukage could deploy a Infinite Exploding clone and merge with the water to offset the Second Hokage from standing still and using Edo (he knows about it because it was said all the Kages of his time noticed him for his jutsu).

 

[Bluedevil]

Second Mizukage vs Second Hokage
​

As with my last Thread this is a thread exploring a largely underrated/not talked about Kage of History and pitting him against a very well known Kage to show how strong this unknown Kage really is.

This is a thread showing why the Second Mizukage can arguably stronger than the Second Hokage. However this thread doesn't account for Edo Tensei

The Second Mizukage has shown a great feat of beating Muu (The 2nd Tschuikage) at the cost of his own life, so read the thread before claiming Tobirama is the best ever.




Why the Second Mizukage is stronger than the Second Hokage?
The main way the Second Mizukage can combine all of these things into an overall advantage is through these things:

1) Absorbing all of the Second Hokage's Very High Magnitude Water Techniques
The Second Mizukage can absorb all of the Second Hokage's water ninjutsu to become progressively stronger and larger in direct proportion into the amount of water he absorbs. Also because of the high magntiude nature of the Second Hokage's techniques he'll be at a very big disadvantage the larger the Jutsu he uses on the Second Mizukage. This is much like a Kisame and chakra relationship only its specific to a type of element.

2) Immune to the Second Hokage's High Prowess Taijutsu
This is a obvious point which basically means the Second Hokage's very high taijutsu skills become useless in the face of the Second Mizukage because of the intangible nature of water meaning he can not be hit by the Second Hokage with either his ninjutsu or taijutsu.

3) Pseudo combination of Minato and Tobi's Space Time Ninjutsu
The Second Mizukage can be like i said earlier anywhere and everywhere all at once if he leads or makes the battle go in the direction of a nearby water source, combined with his intangibility when in liquid state it becomes a form of S/T Ninjutsu which encompasses both Minato's Speed (much faster as it is instanteous, less than 0 seconds in length) and Tobi's intangibility (inability to be harmed in liquid state apart from certain ninjutsu).

4) Oil Based Techniques and the Thunder sword was a filler
The thunder sword wasn't in the manga and was just a filler episode to make a story whch wasn't really there. Also the main point is highlighted by Gyatasuku that the 2nd Mizukage's oil based techniques is a natural insulator so this would allow the Mizukage to counter act the Second Hokage's filler Thunder sword even if it is used as a argument on why Tobirama would win.

The Second Mizukage's Elemental Advantage with Hozuki Nature Transformation

Spoiler

Strengthened by Water techniques as they increase the overall volume of the user of the technique.

Immunity to Wind Techniques as they only work if of a massive magnitude against a increased volume Hozuki user.

Immunity to Earth Techniques as they are solid and usually require the user to hit the opponent directly. Earth traps will also fail as the user can simply seep out of the technique.

Immunity to most fire techniques as the Water > Fire nature of things, but there are exceptions for certain fire techniques and fire release users.

Weakness against very strong fire techniques as the intensity means the user evaporates the user or simply overwhelms the water based technique.

Severe Weakness against lightning as the whole user becomes a liquid (impure water) means that the Di-Charged nature of water (containing both positive and negative minerals) means that it conducts electricity so dangerous and efficiently means the user is electrocuted over and over as they are a complete circuit.

If you check the above spoiler tag you will see the Tobirama's main and only chakra nature (the one he specializes in) will backfire in direct proportion to how strong his water technique is, in the relationship the higher the magnitude of the water technique, the greater the disadvantage Tobirama puts himself in.

Other Tactics usable by the Second Mizukage

Spoiler

The Second Mizukage could use a Infinite Exploding Clone + The Hydrification Technique as a final resort. First the Second Mizukage can use his Exploding Clone to distract the Hokage momentarily, then fuse with a immense body of water. This would compensate for his lack of strength while the clone is active as he could get rid of his weakened state but making a giant water body like Suigetsu did in the Killer Bee fight.

While he is distracting the Second Hokage with the Infinite Exploding clone that follows him around, he could damage him heavily by bombarding him with heavy bodies of water while the Clone keeps on tracking him.

As a last resort if the Second Hokage starts gaining the advantage because of the Mizukage's weakeaned state, he could merge with a very large water source and stay undercover while the Clone does damage to the overall terrain.

The Second Mizukage's oil-based clone technique can act as a constant distraction and disadvanatage to Tobirama as not only will he have to fight the Second Mizukage but constantly avoid the clone to prevent himself being caught in the destructive blast. Also the infinite nature of the the technique (reversible reaction which acts independently) means that it would act as a constant obstacle to the Second Hokage through the fight. Theoretically it could be seen as a 2 vs 1 advantage.

Alternative Argument on why the Second Hokage could win



Other Points to consider:

Spoiler

This thread hasn't even considered the dangerous effects of the Second Mizukage's ultimate Mirage Genjutsu which he could use in conjunction with the clone technique to attack and defend without lifting a finger (once the preparations are set). Also the explosion won't harm the clam because the genjutsu casts a fake version of both the Second Mizukage and the Clam which are hard to tell from the original.

The Second Hokage cannot use Taijutsu in the battle because of how useless it becomes in the face of the Second Mizukage in liquid form and he cannot use water ninjutsu (his main offensive) which strengthens the mizukage. Also his S/T ninjutsu is countered by the ability of attaining a combination of Minato's and Tobi's S/T Jutsus combined in a water filled area.

Finally, this thread has shown simply with his Nature Transformation the Second Mizukage has created a ultimate defense against the Hokage's Main offensive methods, a greater version of S/T Ninjutsu than both Minato and Tobi when fighting in or near a water source.

You must be registered for see images

What do you guys think who would win, the Second Hokage or the Second Mizukage?

Also i need someone to make a Bio for the Second Hokage to add to this thread, please notify me if you will

Proof that the Third Kazekage > The Third Raikage -

You must be registered for see links

Thanks for the invite to this new thread. Honestly I don't have a lot of time to thoroughly go through this but I read the main points. To be honest we do not know much about the 2nd hokage's abilities. In addition I also think you give too much credit to the 2nd mizukage in some areas. There is no proof that the hydro-technique will instantly teleport in any body of water. Also I think that the genjitsu abilities would be negated by the hokage's superior sensor abilities.
In short the main known abilities that would decide the battle is the hydo-tech.and infant explosion vs time/space abilities and an imperfect edo tensi

 

[Pizcobaby]

seems legit... =p read all of it and grant it the Mizukage was a bad ass, but we just truly have no idea how affluent the second hokage was at water techniques. I honestly think the mizukage was stronger just because he took out mu, but it's just speculation. He does have one hell of a water arsenal.

 

[SandCoffinGara]

I think that some of the benefits for Tobirama would defenitely be speed. The instant transportation technique I am not convinced works exactly as you stated. Not sure who would win the fight, but I think that Tobirama's genjutsu could even the playing field. The genjutsu caught someone as skilled as Hiruzen in it and made it difficult for him to defend himself. I don't know who would win the fight but I gotta think that it would be a close battle.

 

[zesto]

idk but i think Tobirama takes it, i mean he's a senju and senju carries a huge amount of chackra

 

[itachi200882]

m i think the 2 mizukage can beat tobirama