So we saw how Shisui's eye gave Itachi back control over his edo body.
We saw how it was mostly his doing in fighting Nagato and Kabuto.
Now that we see Itachi being released from edo, doesn't that mean Kabuto could have unsummoned Itachi at any given time? Instead, he let him come to him along with Sasuke in the hopes of both rewriting Itachi's soultag AND capturing Sasuke.
Isn't that wierd? As smart and cautious as he is, Kabuto let one of the greatest shinobi to come near him.. Besides making Itachi back into a puppet, Kabuto had no greater plans for Itachi. So then why take the risk of fighting him + his younger brother ?
Kotoamatsukami didnt affect Edo Tensei, it simply overwrote the talisman in Itachis head. And as it seems Kabuto can only end Edo Tensei as a whole, so he would loose ALL his warriors just to escape Itachi
Kotoamatsukami didnt affect Edo Tensei, it simply overwrote the talisman in Itachis head. And as it seems Kabuto can only end Edo Tensei as a whole, so he would loose ALL his warriors just to escape Itachi
Kotoamatsukami didnt affect Edo Tensei, it simply overwrote the talisman in Itachis head. And as it seems Kabuto can only end Edo Tensei as a whole, so he would loose ALL his warriors just to escape Itachi
That would make sense, but that is purely speculative. NOWHERE does it say that is the case.
Itachi wanted all edo removed, so one can also entertain the hypothesis that it was Itachi that brainwashed Kabuto into undoing them. Surely, there is a method to summon and usummon WHILE OTHER EDO ARE AROUND [as seen with Muu].
What Mu and Zabuza (or rather, the two KG shinobi ) did was a regular summoning jutsu. Kabuto used Summoning: Edo Tensei. BIG DIFFERENCE
Need proof? The kage were already summoned back when Kabuto did Edo Tensei at the beginning of the war, so Mu cant be the one who brought back 3rd raikage and 4t kazekage
That would make sense, but that is purely speculative. NOWHERE does it say that is the case.
Itachi wanted all edo removed, so one can also entertain the hypothesis that it was Itachi that brainwashed Kabuto into undoing them. Surely, there is a method to summon and usummon WHILE OTHER EDO ARE AROUND [as seen with Muu].
Summoning the coffins and performing the Edo Tensei ritual are two different things. The Ritual is performed in advance (before entering battle) and the Edo-zombies are stored in coffins until they are needed. All Muu and Zabuza did was summon those pre-prepared Edo coffins to they're own locations. Kabuto created all the Edo-zombies with the Edo-ritual himself.
Zabuza and Muu never created any Edo-zombies with the Ritual. All they did was move the Edo-zombies around.
What Mu and Zabuza (or rather, the two KG shinobi ) did was a regular summoning jutsu. Kabuto used Summoning: Edo Tensei. BIG DIFFERENCE
Need proof? The kage were already summoned back when Kabuto did Edo Tensei at the beginning of the war, so Mu cant be the one who brought back 3rd raikage and 4t kazekage
OK, let's assume the summoning by Muu and Zabuza were merely normal summons. Let us assume there is only one combination of hand signs that allows for the summoning and unsummoning of all edo tensei, which is what you people are trying to convey.
If we assume that ALL edo are summoned at once and unsummoned at once, how in the world were some summoned at different points in time?
ALSO, if that is how summoning works, then wouldn't people that use summoning jutsu [Kakashi, Naruto, Jiraiya to name a few] summon ALL their creatures at once? The answer is NO. They selectively summon those to do their bidding at will. It's probably a mental process to select which summon the user wants brought forth [from the species he/she has contracted.]
Summoning the coffins and performing the Edo Tensei ritual are two different things. The Ritual is performed in advance (before entering battle) and the Edo-zombies are stored in coffins until they are needed. All Muu and Zabuza did was summon those pre-prepared Edo coffins to they're own locations. Kabuto created all the Edo-zombies with the Edo-ritual himself.
Zabuza and Muu never created any Edo-zombies with the Ritual. All they did was move the Edo-zombies around.
If summoning the coffins and performing the edo ritual are entirely different in nature, and that one must first have the ritual performed before the summon can be done, then it is only natural to assume a third process is involved: activating the summoned edo.
We see that simply summoning the coffins does not grant them life. When Kabuto shows Tobi his arsenal, he merely summons the coffins as you say. Note that none of the edo are actually alive however. THEREFORE, a third process must be involved in bringing them to life.
THIS RELATES TO MY PREVIOUS POINT, the one which people claim all edo are summoned at once, or ended at once. This simply doesn't hold true given everything I've said.
If summoning the coffins and performing the edo ritual are entirely different in nature, and that one must first have the ritual performed before the summon can be done, then it is only natural to assume a third process is involved: activating the summoned edo.
We see that simply summoning the coffins does not grant them life. When Kabuto shows Tobi his arsenal, he merely summons the coffins as you say. Note that none of the edo are actually alive however. THEREFORE, a third process must be involved in bringing them to life.
THIS RELATES TO MY PREVIOUS POINT, the one which people claim all edo are summoned at once, or ended at once. This simply doesn't hold true given everything I've said.
When the Edo is summoned its already active as seen
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when Torune was summoned. In other words, Kabuto's Edo-summonings are already "alive" when they are summoned. I think Kabuto "puts them to sleep" before he stores them in their coffins. When the coffins are summoned the zombies are "woken up" again.
The fact that all the Edo-zombies disappeared using a single set of Hand seals is already proof that releasing Edo Tensei releases all the summonings the user had a summoning contract with.
When the Edo is summoned its already active as seen
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when Torune was summoned. In other words, Kabuto's Edo-summonings are already "alive" when they are summoned. I think Kabuto "puts them to sleep" before he stores them in their coffins. When the coffins are summoned the zombies are "woken up" again.
The fact that all the Edo-zombies disappeared using a single set of Hand seals is already proof that releasing Edo Tensei releases all the summonings the user had a summoning contract with.
What that panel shows is not proof that it is active when summoned. That panel shows the ritual. He did not summon a coffin that then became active. He performed the ritual and the dead was brought back to life. THEN he put a scroll in his head to control his thinking and movement. This was probably to subdue him for storage, at a later time to be activated after having been summoned.
When Kabuto summons many coffins in front of Tobi, they did not come to life.
Also, in the anime version, Kabuto performs some hand signs to ACTIVATE the coffins he summoned. This was the first edo activation scene, where he talks Madara out of killing the female shinobi that had discovered their headquarters.
Also, the hand sign he uses when summoning the coffins do not differ from the hand signs used when Kabuto summons other coffins. THIS MEANS that the same hand signs are used to summon whichever edo he so chooses, and he does this through some mental choosing as the hand signs do not differ.
THIS IS THE SAME for every other character we've seen using summons. They do not perform different combinations of hand signs for different summons. We only see people having different hand signs for their respective summon animal species. And maybe in rare instances such as Gedo Mazo do special hand signs come into play.
Your reasoning is Kabuto has unique hand signs for each of his summons? Also, notice how I only use the word SUMMON and not UNSUMMON. This is because I'm specifically talking about summoning and not ending a summon. Your reasoning is that different hand signs are required for BOTH SUMMONING AND UNSUMONNING for every single edo? I don't think so.
I understand that they were all ,safe Madara [he knew the hand signs to re-summon himself under his control?], unsummoned. But this is because of what Itachi did, NOT BECAUSE the hand signs unsummon ALL. Itachi got Kabuto to focus on ALL the edo tensei.
we'll what I see when critical thinking about Itachi's revival, is that basically screwed everyone over but allowing edo madara to roam free lol, guess he didn't think that through.
we'll what I see when critical thinking about Itachi's revival, is that basically screwed everyone over but allowing edo madara to roam free lol, guess he didn't think that through.
This is true. Might need to polish up the way you express but I get what you're saying.
For someone as sharp as Itachi, he forgot to consider the possibility that some edo know the hand signs to summon themselves back should the original user end the technique entirely.
What that panel shows is not proof that it is active when summoned. That panel shows the ritual. He did not summon a coffin that then became active. He performed the ritual and the dead was brought back to life. THEN he put a scroll in his head to control his thinking and movement. This was probably to subdue him for storage, at a later time to be activated after having been summoned.
When Kabuto summons many coffins in front of Tobi, they did not come to life.
Also, in the anime version, Kabuto performs some hand signs to ACTIVATE the coffins he summoned. This was the first edo activation scene, where he talks Madara out of killing the female shinobi that had discovered their headquarters.
Also, the hand sign he uses when summoning the coffins do not differ from the hand signs used when Kabuto summons other coffins. THIS MEANS that the same hand signs are used to summon whichever edo he so chooses, and he does this through some mental choosing as the hand signs do not differ.
THIS IS THE SAME for every other character we've seen using summons. They do not perform different combinations of hand signs for different summons. We only see people having different hand signs for their respective summon animal species. And maybe in rare instances such as Gedo Mazo do special hand signs come into play.
Your reasoning is Kabuto has unique hand signs for each of his summons? Also, notice how I only use the word SUMMON and not UNSUMMON. This is because I'm specifically talking about summoning and not ending a summon. Your reasoning is that different hand signs are required for BOTH SUMMONING AND UNSUMONNING for every single edo? I don't think so.
I understand that they were all ,safe Madara [he knew the hand signs to re-summon himself under his control?], unsummoned. But this is because of what Itachi did, NOT BECAUSE the hand signs unsummon ALL. Itachi got Kabuto to focus on ALL the edo tensei.
I'm not sure anymore what you mean by "active". In your other posts you used terms such as "grant them life", "bring them to life" and "alive" and said this might be due to a third process. And from what I understood this third process only occurs after the coffins are summoned.
To me "active" means that the Edo-summoning is awake, or not asleep. If active means something different to you then it means that this is a misunderstanding. The point that I'm making is that Edo-summonings are awake even before they are put in coffins. Look at the bottom right panel of that scan. Edo-Torune asks: Wh-Where am I?. The fact that Edo-Torune can speak means that he is awake. And there was no third process or hand seals involved that woke him up from what I saw in that scan. He was awake from the moment the ritual ended.
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The fact that all the Edo-zombies disappeared using a single set of Hand seals is already proof that releasing Edo Tensei releases all the summonings the user had a summoning contract with.
Firstly, mentioning this was stupid. This wasn't part of the point I was initially making.
Anyway, the anime is not canon. And anything in the Anime thats not in the Manga can not be considered reliable, at all. I cant find anything about Kabuto activating coffins in the manga after he captured Anko. Summoning an Edo Zombie in its coffin uses these seals: Tiger → Snake → Dog → Dragon → Clap hands. Improving the appearance of the zombie uses the Tiger seal. Putting them to sleep uses the Ram seal. I dont know whats used to wake them up again. but in the Edo Tense ritual Kabuto was only shown using one hand seal: the Snake seal (he held it until the "dust" covered the sacrifice). Like I said before Edo Tensei and summoning Edo-zombies are two different things.
Edo Tensei = creating the zombies; summoning souls into living sacifices. Summoning Edo-zombies = moving these zombies to the caster's general location.
There's also a difference between releasing Edo Tensei and Unsummoning Edo-Zombies
Releasing Edo Tensei = Releasing the souls of the summoning, sending it back to the Pure World. Unsummoning Edo-Zombies = An empty, open coffin is summoned that covers the summoning. The lid then covers and closes the zombie inside. And the coffin (with the zombie inside) is presumably sent back to where he was stored.
It is already proven in the manga that Edo-zombies can be summoned and unsummoned individually. But the Manga does not have anything on releasing of Edo Tensei for individuals. Edo Tensei has only been shown to be released as a whole. And how Kabuto handled Edo-Itachi's emancipation reinforces the belief that Edo Tensei can only be released as a whole.
I'm not sure anymore what you mean by "active". In your other posts you used terms such as "grant them life", "bring them to life" and "alive" and said this might be due to a third process. And from what I understood this third process only occurs after the coffins are summoned.
To me "active" means that the Edo-summoning is awake, or not asleep. If active means something different to you then it means that this is a misunderstanding. The point that I'm making is that Edo-summonings are awake even before they are put in coffins. Look at the bottom right panel of that scan. Edo-Torune asks: Wh-Where am I?. The fact that Edo-Torune can speak means that he is awake. And there was no third process or hand seals involved that woke him up from what I saw in that scan. He was awake from the moment the ritual ended.
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Firstly, mentioning this was stupid. This wasn't part of the point I was initially making.
Anyway, the anime is not canon. And anything in the Anime thats not in the Manga can not be considered reliable, at all. I cant find anything about Kabuto activating coffins in the manga after he captured Anko. Summoning an Edo Zombie in its coffin uses these seals: Tiger → Snake → Dog → Dragon → Clap hands. Improving the appearance of the zombie uses the Tiger seal. Putting them to sleep uses the Ram seal. I dont know whats used to wake them up again. but in the Edo Tense ritual Kabuto was only shown using one hand seal: the Snake seal (he held it until the "dust" covered the sacrifice). Like I said before Edo Tensei and summoning Edo-zombies are two different things.
Edo Tensei = creating the zombies; summoning souls into living sacifices. Summoning Edo-zombies = moving these zombies to the caster's general location.
There's also a difference between releasing Edo Tensei and Unsummoning Edo-Zombies
Releasing Edo Tensei = Releasing the souls of the summoning, sending it back to the Pure World. Unsummoning Edo-Zombies = An empty, open coffin is summoned that covers the summoning. The lid then covers and closes the zombie inside. And the coffin (with the zombie inside) is presumably sent back to where he was stored.
It is already proven in the manga that Edo-zombies can be summoned and unsummoned individually. But the Manga does not have anything on releasing of Edo Tensei for individuals. Edo Tensei has only been shown to be released as a whole. And how Kabuto handled Edo-Itachi's emancipation reinforces the belief that Edo Tensei can only be released as a whole.
First of all, I would like to mention what I am arguing about, because we are veering off track. My points are that (1) Itachi was included in Kabuto's Edo Tensei unsummoning, meaning Kabuto had the means to unsummon Itachi at any point, and (2) that the user determines beforehand which creature he or she wishes to summon/unsummon, thus refuting the theory that Edo Tensei can only be unsummoned as a whole.
Back to the response:
You point out something worth elaborating on, activeness.
Yes, their state of mental activity should be considered. When I say summoned or unsummoned, I simply mean summoned or unsummoned. I tried to leave out the concept of activity or "awake/not asleep" as you put it, because something else comes into play with Kabuto's summons: they are stored. So unlike regular animal summons that come and go fully "awaken" or "activated", my point was that Edo Tensei does not work the same. Furthermore, it requires an outside source in order for the caster to gain control of the summoned being, i.e. those daggers with spelltags attached to them that Kabuto inserts into the heads.
From the panel you have provided we indeed see Torune exclaiming "where am I?", indicative of cognitive activity. In your framework of thought, I agree he is "awake" as well as "not asleep". But as you yourself said, "he was awake from the moment the ritual ended". This is true.. now let us entertain this idea.. If this is the case, then it is reasonable to assume it be the same for all other Edo. Edo summons are revived in an "active" state before they are stored. Now, the point I'm trying to make is that they are not active when they are stored. In addition to being stored as an inactive Edo [inactive albeit ritualized, see coffin argument], the user has at his disposition a wide variety of previously stored Edo summons that he may use at his own accord. He [Kabuto] may choose to summon 1 as he may choose to summon 100; the choice is his.
And just like SUMMONING, it is Kabuto's choice to UNSUMMON the Edo of his choosing. Of the countless summons we have seen, every caster has had the power to summon or unsummon at their own will: Naruto can summon 1 shadow clone just as he can 100, and the same can be said with his unsummoning 1 or 100. In addition, Naruto's clones can unsummon themselves at their own will [as can be said of contracted animal summons]. Each shadow clone can also summon clones of their own. This cannot be refuted, yes?
Now I would like to address the following quote: "The fact that all the Edo-zombies disappeared using a single set of Hand seals is already proof that releasing Edo Tensei releases all the summonings the user had a summoning contract with."
I know you said this wasn't what you meant, but let me just entertain the idea, if you will. The fundamental flaw with that statement is that it precludes the possibility of outside influence that may have caused that outcome. It is a huge stretch to draw such a conclusion.
Secondly, he never signed a contract with the diseased or revived, and contracts are usually drafted with all parties in agreement. If a contract is signed without this pre-requisite, then it is viewed as an unlawful or unwilling contract, in which courts would dismiss its appeal depending on the severity or other extraneous variables in play.
I'd like to mention that the anime may not represent the manga 100% [fillers, movies], but it is foolish for one to omit and ignore it completely and take any variation therefrom as non-credible. It is simply additional detail as to what occurred. I know the part that I was referring to is not in the manga, that is why I highlighted its significance to the Edo technique.
On a final note, from the context of how you employed it, I assume you mean Itachi set Kabuto free spiritually [from his past self and embrace his true self]. If this were the case, and I agree with you that it is, then would you not also agree Itachi had a roll to play in the releasing of ALL Edo summons? Given all the points I've listed above, it seems only logical that Itachi either forced Kabuto to release all or Kabuto realized he needed to release all in order to escape the genjutsu. EITHER WAY, the cognitive process by which casters unsummon/release is the same as all other shinobi, i.e. they selectively choose [in this case all were selected].
On a final note, from the context of how you employed it, I assume you mean Itachi set Kabuto free spiritually [from his past self and embrace his true self]. If this were the case, and I agree with you that it is, then would you not also agree Itachi had a roll to play in the releasing of ALL Edo summons? Given all the points I've listed above, it seems only logical that Itachi either forced Kabuto to release all or Kabuto realized he needed to release all in order to escape the genjutsu. EITHER WAY, the cognitive process by which casters unsummon/release is the same as all other shinobi, i.e. they selectively choose [in this case all were selected].
No. I was talking about how Kabuto handled the situation after Itachi "escaped" Kabuto's control (using KA) and how this reinforced the general belief that Edo Tensei can only be released as a whole.
Why didn't Kabuto just release Itachi individually (and resurrect him again) if he was capable of releasing Edo-Zombies individually?
There can be only one of two reasons why. Its either:
Option 1 - Edo zombies can be released individually and Kishi made a monumental mistake. And he kept on making it every time Kabuto allowed Itachi to hurt his ambition: 1)Itachi escapes. Why not release Itachi individually? 2) Itachi seals Nagato. Why not release him individually before he took out one of his greatest assets and lets two Bijuu's escape? 3) Itachi discovers Kabuto's location and acts on it. Why not release him individually before he acts on it? 4) Itachi gangs up on him with Sasuke. Why not release him individually to make it easier to capture Sasuke? Why would Kabuto allow all that to happen when he could simply release Itachi (and resurrect him again...if he wanted to).
Option 2 - Edo Tensei can only be released as a whole. In other words, Edo tensei can not be released individually. Releasing Edo Tensei in order to get rid of Itachi means releasing every single other Edo-zombie. How Kabuto handled Itachi makes more sense if Edo tensei really can only be released as a whole. And it also doesn't make Kabuto or Kishi look like complete idiots.
