[Discussion] Gravity... the weakest fundamental force?

Antiance

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I've always been curious as to why gravity, such a vital fundamental force, is a billion billion billion times weaker than the other forces (electromagnetic, strong and weak force). String theory (and the most recent reincarnation M-Theory) suggests that gravity is as strong as the other forces, but because our reality is restricted to 4 dimensions and we can't see/observe the other 7 dimensions, gravity must be concentrated elsewhere. However, considering that the other dimensions, perhaps excluding the 11th, are infinitesimally small and are characterized by mathematical manifolds, how can this be reconciled when the quantum field for gravity is only as strong as it is proportional to it's own size?

Any thoughts?
 
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-Jiraiya-

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Earth's gravity holds some >100 billion people / things on its surface... so its not weak as you say.. but weaker than a black hole of course...:hint:
 

Antiance

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Consider, it's the only force holding us down. If you use a tiny magnet and pick up a pin, isn't it just remarkable that the entire weight of the Earth is pulling down on it, yet a little magnet can pull it up like it is nothing. Like I said, gravity is a billion billion billion times weaker than the other forces. The strong force is the strongest, followed by the electromagnetic, followed by the weak forces, followed by gravity.

The reason why black holes are so gravitationally powerful is that it's volume can be described by the limit as v (volume) -> 0 and as m (mass) -> infinite (well technically 1 since kerr black holes actually expel residual radiation from it's core). Since Density = m/v, then it's just the limit as m/v -> infinity since v -> 0. High density = more warped space time = logarithmic growth in strength of gravity.
 

Talha52

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Gravity sits on no. 4 in the list of the natural forces. The reason is that every other force has a limit to which it can increase but Gravity can increase infintly.
The most commonly known example of gravity is Black holes.
Gravity can easily be understood if you think of it as Sayian. Just like a Sayian's(yes,from DBZ) power gravity keeps on increasing and increasing to no end, but since the strongest form of gravity yet known is black hole so it is placed on no.4.
Hopes this helps.:D
 
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Shinobi Train

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I wouldn't go so far as to say gravity is weak. Take the Moon for example, it's just this tiny thing orbiting the Earth and at a fairly great distance, mind you. However, it's gravity is strong enough to pull our entire planet towards it.

Most people think of the Earth as simply being round, when actually it's ever so slightly distorted. The Earth has more of an oval shape facing the direction of the Moon at all times since it's being pulled torwards it. (not that this is extreme, just an idea of how powerful gravity is even around us; the pull on Earth's oceans has a massive influence on things)
 

Darthlawsuit

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I have heard string theory and believe it is false. It sounds so me they do not understand what is going on so they make up fake dimensions to try to explain it.

I am sure it will be found to not exist in about 50 years.
 

Antiance

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I wouldn't go so far as to say gravity is weak. Take the Moon for example, it's just this tiny thing orbiting the Earth and at a fairly great distance, mind you. However, it's gravity is strong enough to pull our entire planet towards it.

Most people think of the Earth as simply being round, when actually it's ever so slightly distorted. The Earth has more of an oval shape facing the direction of the Moon at all times since it's being pulled torwards it. (not that this is extreme, just an idea of how powerful gravity is even around us; the pull on Earth's oceans has a massive influence on things)
Gravity is incredibly weak compared to the other 3 forces. If it was any stronger, we'd be instantly crushed and the universe would be littered with black holes since matter would just continually be crushed.

I have heard string theory and believe it is false. It sounds so me they do not understand what is going on so they make up fake dimensions to try to explain it.

I am sure it will be found to not exist in about 50 years.
Personally, I believe the string theory is so beautiful that it must be correct. How else can we reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics? Then again, it is all hypothetical, yet it's the best thing they have up to date. Stephen Hawking said that String Theory is the only contender for the Theory of Everything. It's not that they don't understand it, it's just the math points to extra dimensions and they are trying to find out mathematically what is going on here.

Well, in 50 years I'm sure another version of String Theory will come out. It isn't wrong since it can explain the birth of our universe and theoretically explains gravity as a subset of quantum field theory in quantum gravity field theory where the particle which is the force carrier of gravity is the graviton.
 

Olorin

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Ah yes now this thread i really like! E very brief and simple explanation of the 4 forces:

These forces are the second basis for the universe. Every fundamental particle in the universe affects the movement of every other particle. It can either attract or push it with one or more of the 4 forces that physics knows today. Two of these forces we are very familiar with i.e. gravity and magnetism, the other two, the nuclear forces only apply to the world of atoms and such particles.

If you let an object go it will fall to the ground, supposedly the earths gravity attracts it but in reality every particle in the object is attracted by every particle on earth and vice versa. The small object naturally moves more than earth because it has less of these particles, but ofc the earth moves too. (apr. 1/ 10^22 mm if i remember correctly).

Gravity is the force keeping us on this planet and if we wanted to escape that pull we would have to travel at 11 km/s =~= 40 000 km/h. Our planet stays in the orbit of the sun because of that same force, the sun is pulled by our galaxy, gravity here holds billions of stars together, even though the speed of our sun around the center of the galaxy is apr. 250 km/s.

Even if gravity does all that its still the weakest of the 4 forces by far. It only seems powerful because it reaches far and affects everything. The two nuclear forces, even if they are much stronger, only work between particles which are very close, protons and neutrons in an atom core for example. Electromagnetic force too is much stronger than gravity and has a long range as well. If you want to see how much stronger than gravity it is than rub a stick :) and use it to lift pieces of paper. Electromagnetism in that small amount does that even though every particle on earth is pulling those pieces of paper.

The firs rule about electtromagnetism is that opposites attract. So the positive proton attracts the negative electron but two protons will push one another. This attraction is what holds the electrons in their orbits. To compare the relative forces of gravity and emagnetism we would have to separate the particles (say protons which will push one another) in atoms on lets say our planet and the moon, in that case the moon would blast off because of the force of the push.

Emagnetism also forces electric force forces the electrons to move along the wire. In metal electrons aren't fixed onto their atoms and the weak electric force - voltage - causes them to move. In a wire there is always the same amount of protons and electrons so its always neutral. The flow of electrons of course transports energy .

The moving electrons also produce the magnetic force. Here too are 2 poles + and - or N and S and again opposites attract. But its different from electricity because it can never exist on its own. It cant exist in only a form of a single pole. If you cut a magnet in half it will polarize into N and S again. Then there are the electromagnet and the generator but i wont go into that ... The electrons make up a circular electric current, so every atom is a little electromagnet on its own with a N and S pole. The circulation of electrons in atoms in most atoms tries to eaven out and become neutral with some exceptions like Fe.

Electricity and magnetism are really just a different manifestation of the same fundamental force -> electromagnetism.

The last two, strong and weak nuclear forces are just as important. The strong n force hold together the quarks, this force is enormous, considering how in the atom core there are many protons (+) stuck together. We can see this power in the H bomb where new cores are formed. There is also the fusion of H, that also happens in the sun.

The weak nuclwar force is the most ''mysterious'' since it is hidden behind the more powerful magnetic and even more powerful strong force. Most of the effects of this force are shown to us during reactions and not on the actual movement i.e. push/pull of particles. A free neutron for example is very hard to meintain for long and than it forms a proton an electron and an antineutrino (antimatter eq of a neutrino). We could say the weak force is the most important because it regulates the first stages of H fusion in stars, they would never emit light if it wasnt for that or would just explode as soon as they were born.

Weak force however could only be the other side of emagnetism. Just like once separate magnetism proved to be another manifestation of emagnetism. We hope to soon unify 3 forces and maybe prove that they are different manifestations of one force and than only gravity will pose a problem.

but to answer your q extremely simply, yes the gravity of earth is strong (only because a very high number of particles are pulling you) but still gravity is the weakest, try building a lets say, nuke of the same size and number of particles and you will see just how weak gravity is

_____ _______ -> Algalon, Cambridge, UK ... hope u enjoyed reading it

sorry for any typos i didnt read it back

P.S. the string theory is beautiful, most who dont study physics cant understand its complexity, it involves extreme mathematics. science has changed a lot, at the beginning most ppl could understand new achievents in science but today only a few ppl in every field can understand it so im pretty sure most ppl here cant comment on the string theory well enough to do it justice
 
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Shinobi Train

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Gravity is incredibly weak compared to the other 3 forces. If it was any stronger, we'd be instantly crushed and the universe would be littered with black holes since matter would just continually be crushed.
I think this is necessary to post just for people to see it:

The Four Forces

1. Gravity - This force acts between all mass in the universe and it has infinite range.

2. Electromagnetic - This acts between electrically charged particles. Electricity, magnetism, and light are all produced by this force and it also has infinite range.

3. The Strong Force - This force binds neutrons and protons together in the cores of atoms and is a short range force.

4. Weak Force - This causes Beta decay (the conversion of a neutron to a proton, an electron and an antineutrino) and various particles (the "strange" ones) are formed by strong interactions but decay via weak interactions (that's what's strange about "strangeness"). Like the strong force, the weak force is also short range.


This^ is just something I found since we were on the topic. :p Now that it's been thoroughly explained as to what we're talking about, exactly how is gravity limited? Just because it's easier to build an electromagnetic that will hold up hundreds of pounds and defeat gravity on Earth, doesn't mean gravity is weak. All it means is that now you need to go enough mass to match the magnet. ;)

Edit: Oh, I see Algalon beat me to it...but my explanation's shorter. :p
 
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Antiance

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Scientist use to think that magnetism and electricity were 2 different forces, but were found to be 2 different manifestations of the same force, reconciled by James Maxwell in his set of partial differential equations on electromagnetic dynamics. A moving magnetic field = electric field and vice versa if I'm correct.

Doesn't the Standard Model combine the weak and the electromagnetic force into the electroweak interaction at high temperatures due to the discovery of W and Z gauge bosons? Isn't that the reason why the Standard Model is incomplete?


No, it's mathematically proven. Gravity is by far the weakest of the 4 forces because it is infinite in range (as far as we know). Not only could it be diffused amongst the other 7 dimensions in string theory, but it must also be diffused in 4D spacetime because mass distorts spacetime to produce gravity. You have the most gravity at the center of mass. Therefore, the smaller the field, the stronger the gravity, but it would require an incredibly high (perhaps infinite?) amount of energy.
 
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Darthlawsuit

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Personally, I believe the string theory is so beautiful that it must be correct. How else can we reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics? Then again, it is all hypothetical, yet it's the best thing they have up to date. Stephen Hawking said that String Theory is the only contender for the Theory of Everything. It's not that they don't understand it, it's just the math points to extra dimensions and they are trying to find out mathematically what is going on here.

Well, in 50 years I'm sure another version of String Theory will come out. It isn't wrong since it can explain the birth of our universe and theoretically explains gravity as a subset of quantum field theory in quantum gravity field theory where the particle which is the force carrier of gravity is the graviton.
Matter could just have a natural attraction to other pieces of matter. It could have been designed so that matter would attempt to merge together with other matter so that things may be created. Kind of like how a negative and positive magnet is attracted to one another. It seems strange that atoms have gravity and attract one another yet have an outer shell that repels other atoms. When the shell loses an atom it will grab an atom from another and become linked. The two will also not allow the nuclei to collide but will stay at the perfect distance apart from one another.

String theory sounds like they are grabbing for strings in the dark xd
 
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Antiance

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Matter could just have a natural attraction to other pieces of matter. It could have been designed so that matter would attempt to merge together with other matter so that things may be created. Kind of like how a negative and positive magnet is attracted to one another. It seems strange that atoms have gravity and attract one another yet have an outer shell that repels other atoms. When the shell loses an atom it will grab an atom from another and become linked. The two will also not allow the nuclei to collide but will stay at the perfect distance apart from one another.

String theory sounds like they are grabbing for strings in the dark xd
Well physics want to find out what that "natural attraction" is. Negative and positive magnets attract due to the electromagnetic interaction not because they "have" to.

Actually, the outer shell of atoms don't repel other atoms, but depending on whether it's hybridized or not, allows other atoms with different cloud orientations to form sigma bonds initially and pi bonds using P-orbitals.
 

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Yes it's , that's why Dark Energy is moving the galaxies away from each other , and the Universe is excpanding at an accelerated rate = after 100 billion trillion years or something , all matter will reach the speed of light = and everything becomes pure energy.
 

Antiance

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Yes it's , that's why Dark Energy is moving the galaxies away from each other , and the Universe is excpanding at an accelerated rate = after 100 billion trillion years or something , all matter will reach the speed of light = and everything becomes pure energy.
not really. After 10^~100 billion years from now, the black hole era will end and as space expands faster than the speed of light, the speed at which information can never exceed, the universe will grow cold and very dark. At this stage, matter has ceased to be since it was shredded apart by dark energy eons ago and everything will reach absolute zero. Nothing will be everything.
 

Olorin

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Yes it's , that's why Dark Energy is moving the galaxies away from each other , and the Universe is excpanding at an accelerated rate = after 100 billion trillion years or something , all matter will reach the speed of light = and everything becomes pure energy.
there are many theories:
big freeze: 10^14 years (considered to be the most likely)
heat death: 10^145(-50) years
big rip: 2x10^11 years
vacuum metastability
big crunch: 10^11 years
 

Darthlawsuit

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not really. After 10^~100 billion years from now, the black hole era will end and as space expands faster than the speed of light, the speed at which information can never exceed, the universe will grow cold and very dark. At this stage, matter has ceased to be since it was shredded apart by dark energy eons ago and everything will reach absolute zero. Nothing will be everything.
I predict nothing will happen. When we reach the speed of light besides a lot of strange electrical interference. Where's my nobel prize?
 

Antiance

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I predict nothing will happen. When we reach the speed of light besides a lot of strange electrical interference. Where's my nobel prize?
We will never reach the speed of light. It's impossible. You'd need an infinite amount of energy to accelerate close to the speed of light, but you can never be it. If anything, the big freeze will happen. Everything will be pulled apart by dark energy and nothingness will dominate the empty cold universe.
 
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