How can you believe Nagato > Hashirama...

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Elio

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Is Nagato the Kages? So that's not even relevent. Edo Madara has never seen Nagato at full power, neither is he aware of Tobi and Naruto's strength so him saying only Hashirama can stop him is flawed if he doesn't know every single ninja.

So your argument is just hype? I'd rather stick to manga facts than blindly bandwagoning.
Just like I said. All we know of Hashi is mokuton and his immense amount of hype which is simply not enough to defeat Nagato. :hint:
 
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coming from a hashirama fanboy? xd

thats rich.



1. Sm naruto faught Pain. Nagato is Stronger than Pain.

2. Nagato/Pain had already used alot of chakra beating leaf shinobi and One shotting the leaf, If pain went full force at Sm naruto, Naruto would of been destroyed.
1. I don't think Naruto was stronger than Pain, Pain just wasn't trying to kill him.

2. I think Hashirama is stronger than SM Naruto, so just because he would have destroyed him doesn't mean he could do the same to Hashi. Madara said Hashi could change landcapes and so does Nagato. I'm just saying we don't know which would win at this point because we don't fully know about Hashi's abilities. Nagato is very powerful and we have seen plenty of feats and we haven't had the chance to see a lot of Hashirama. Therefore, don't pit just Nagato's feats vs Hashirama's feats. In hype Hashi wins, in feats Nagato does. Draw until we see more Hashi feats.
 

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Yeah because Edo Madara knows of Nagato's full powers.?

he knows of Tobi's gedo mazo + 7biiju?

He knows of current Bm naruto?

he knows of every single ninja that ever existed during the time he's been dead.?

Also didn't Itachi just stop edo madara since he ended edo tensei? xd
He knows the Rinnegans powers and can imagine to what Nagato has turned after 30 years.

He doesn't know Tobis strength now, but Kabuto does and said, that there aren't people on his level anymore. And I think that Kabuto knows it better since he, with Orochimaru possess the most knowledge about the characters due to their various experiments and researches.

I don't say that Hashirama wins for sure, this fight could go either way, especially 'cause we don't know Hashiramas power extent.
 

Hashirama Senju 48

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Yeah because Edo Madara knows of Nagato's full powers.?

he knows of Tobi's gedo mazo + 7biiju?

He knows of current Bm naruto?

he knows of every single ninja that ever existed during the time he's been dead.?

Also didn't Itachi just stop edo madara since he ended edo tensei? xd
We dont know if edo Madara has been stopped yet.... If Itachi was able to escape being controlled by kabuto, I bet Madara can escape edo tensei and save himself even after its release.

Please dont involve Naruto bcuz we all know hashi beat madara plus Kurama full 9 tails.

The fourth pretty much injured Tobi, so i dont see y hashi wouldnt be able to handle him. And the jinks; hashi knows of their power so he could cook up something to counter... He might get a little trouble with their linked rinnegan, however he is still better.
 

Elio

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He knows the Rinnegans powers and can imagine to what Nagato has turned after 30 years.

He doesn't know Tobis strength now, but Kabuto does and said, that there aren't people on his level anymore. And I think that Kabuto knows it better since he, with Orochimaru possess the most knowledge about the characters due to their various experiments and researches.

I don't say that Hashirama wins for sure, this fight could go either way, especially 'cause we don't know Hashiramas power extent.
That's why Kishi needs to do a Hashi arc or something xD Or a arc on the past kages. So much unanswered. :T_T:
 

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1. I don't think Naruto was stronger than Pain, Pain just wasn't trying to kill him.

2. I think Hashirama is stronger than SM Naruto, so just because he would have destroyed him doesn't mean he could do the same to Hashi. Madara said Hashi could change landcapes and so does Nagato. I'm just saying we don't know which would win at this point because we don't fully know about Hashi's abilities. Nagato is very powerful and we have seen plenty of feats and we haven't had the chance to see a lot of Hashirama. Therefore, don't pit just Nagato's feats vs Hashirama's feats. In hype Hashi wins, in feats Nagato does. Draw until we see more Hashi feats.
It does not matter what Hashirama possess as long as they are in the form of Ninjutsu, Taijutsu (Genjutsu is arguable) Nagato would be able to counter anything Hashirama throws simply because of the abilities of the Rinnegan. As I have stated in my first post unless of course Hashirama has some super hax ability that would trouble and overpower the Rinnegan, which I highly doubt.

Now when turned the other way around, Hashirama has no counters for some of Nagato's abilities.
 

Exaar

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He knows the Rinnegans powers and can imagine to what Nagato has turned after 30 years.

He doesn't know Tobis strength now, but Kabuto does and said, that there aren't people on his level anymore. And I think that Kabuto knows it better since he, with Orochimaru possess the most knowledge about the characters due to their various experiments and researches.

I don't say that Hashirama wins for sure, this fight could go either way, especially 'cause we don't know Hashiramas power extent.
He knows of the rinnegan powers yes, But to what extent, Also he has to factor in the user, there's no way he could possibly know how far nagato could take the rinnegan.

Kabuto also includes himself in this statement, So does this mean even with edo tensei that kabuto still isn't on his level?.
Kabuto also lacks info on current Naruto, he hasn't seen Bm form yet, Only Km.

personally i don't think he was counting the Dead/Edo tensei, Only the shonobi that are alive at this point in time.
Excluding Nagato/Hiruzen/Madara and so on.
 
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Anorien16

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Booop. This!

I hate when people say he wouldn't be able to absorb his mokuton. It's made of chakra just like any other jutsu, so why exactly wouldn't Preta path be able to absorb it. O-o
The wood is a physical thing, much like the earth affceted by doton. Till now Preta has shown only able to absorb energy form.

Proof the wood is physicals:
1. Things made of chakra needs a steady supply of chakra to sustain itself or they disappear gradually, like chidori, Susano etc.
2. The enitre forest of Konoha was made by mokuton and they havent disappeared in years even though none feeds them chakra.

So, put 1+2= Mokuton a Physical thing not Chakra
 
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Raito

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Kabuto also includes himself in this statement, So does this mean even with edo tensei that kabuto still isn't on his level?.
Kabuto also lacks info on current Naruto, he hasn't seen Bm form yet, Only Km.
To be honest I don't think he includes himself with his Edo Tensei, his statement was a comparison to all Ninjas among themselves and Edo Tensei is a Jutsu summoning several Ninjas. Of course, maybe he doesn't know to what Naruto has turned to, but the talk is about Nagato now and Kabutos statement obviously counted Nagato and the still living Tobi. If there would still be people stronger than him even alive, Kabuto would not give this statement with such an assurance.
 

Exaar

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The wood is a physical thing, much like the earth affceted by doton. Till now Preta has shown only able to absorb energy form.

Proof the wood is physicals:
1. Things made of chakra needs a steady supply of chakra to sustain itself or they disappear gradually, like chidori, Susano etc.
2. The enitre forest of Konoha was made by mokuton and they havent disappeared in years even though none feeds them chakra.

So, put 1+2= Mokuton a Physical thing not Chakra
Even if he can't absorb mukuton it's self, He can asborb the chakra inside it, Thus rendering it useless.

Without chakra hashirama cannot move/manipulate the wood.
 

Ryuu..

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Shodaime's main offensive ability is his Mokuton, and like any other ninjutsu this attack is made of chakra, albeit chakra converted into another form. Nagato will be able to absorb this, as displayed when he absorbed Jiraiya's toad oil. Some find it hard to believe that Preta Path can absorb solid objects, but it can if they are formed initially from chakra.

Nagato has plenty of ways to end this match, but none as effective as the removal of Hashirama's soul. This can be done in two ways; firstly, through the use of Gedo Mazo. Nagato will be able to use the Soul Removal Dragon to instantly take Hashirama's soul, as he did against multiple shinobi in his battle against Hanzo. Note, Hanzo was only able to avoid this jutsu by using the body flicker technique.
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So unless Hashirama will be quick enough to escape this jutsu, he can expect to taste defeat. The second way in which Nagato can take Hashirama's soul is by using the Human Path. The Human Path grants the user the ability to remove the soul of any target they touched as well as read their mind. Now, by combining this with Banshou Tenin, Nagato can create a devastating combo. When under the influence of this jutsu, Hashirama will find it almost impossible to counter, as Naruto was completely immobilised when Nagato used it on him. Naruto only managed to escape due to his chakra arm.
Once being drawn in, Nagato can swiftly proceed to draw out Hashirama's soul.
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Nagato's ability to use multiple paths at once also give him a great advantage in this matchup:
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Hashirama's Mokuton clones can be kept away by Shinra Tensei. Remember, this is a shinra Tensei which the Deva Path was able to use in order to easily fling Gamabunta et al hundreds of yards into the mountains. Added to the fact that Naruto claimed all of Nagato's techniques were stronger when he used it in his real body, you'd be a fool to think Mokuton clones or their offensive techniques will get anyway near Nagato.

Nagato's summons will also cause Hashirama a great deal of difficulty. In particular, The Giant Snake-Tailed Chameleon. Now, this summon this creature can blend with its surroundings for camouflage, so perfectly that it renders itself completely invisible to other viewers around. If Hashirama expects to deal with Nagato, how is he going to stay alert of the invisible summon? It's either or. The Chameleon has feats of destroying houses, so it is not absurd to suggest it would be able to destroy any part of the forrest in which it is summoned in. The snake-tail can be used as a prehensile limb, to be able to grab and capture intended targets for Nagato, which also presents another opportunity for him to take Hashirama's soul.
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Hashirama may also have difficulty with dealing with Cereberus whilst trying to focus on Nagato. It can split apart, when struck, into individual dogs that can then merge back together. It also gains additional heads every time it splits in this way; so Hashirama will not be able to try and physically destroy it, and, without knowledge, is unlikely not to fall into this trap.

Bringer of Darkness does little except negate the sight of the opponent. Shinra Tensei would be able to sufficiently counter this, as Nagato uses himself as the center point, and anything which is not him get's hit. Also remember, Bringer of Darkness is a only short - mid range technique, so Hashirama is very likely to be affected by Shinra Tensei if he uses it.

A sick Nagato was able to use a Chibaku Tensei (through the Deva Path whilst being low on Chakra) capable of housing the Eight tails mode Kyuubi. Logically, a healthy Nagato would be able to create a stronger and bigger variation of this jutsu, one which Hashirama would very much struggle to escape. Mini mountain sized rocks > Wood, so I find it a stretch to say Mokuton will be able to break out of it.
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It took the best part of a Bijuu Dama, Rasen-Shuriken and Yasaka Magatama to destroy the core. It also took Itachi's genius to work out how to destroy it during the initial start up phase. I find it unlikely that Hashirama will have the speed of thought required in order to halt such a jutsu.

Hashirama's power may've been called a myth like the So6P, but let's remember, Nagato was actually called the Second Sage of 6 Paths, so it's not like Hashirama's hype completely overshadows Nagato's.
 
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Elio

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We dont know if edo Madara has been stopped yet.... If Itachi was able to escape being controlled by kabuto, I bet Madara can escape edo tensei and save himself even after its release.

Please dont involve Naruto bcuz we all know hashi beat madara plus Kurama full 9 tails.

The fourth pretty much injured Tobi, so i dont see y hashi wouldnt be able to handle him. And the jinks; hashi knows of their power so he could cook up something to counter... He might get a little trouble with their linked rinnegan, however he is still better.
Itachi was only able to escape because of Shisui. o.o
The wood is a physical thing, much like the earth affceted by doton. Till now Preta has shown only able to absorb energy form.

Proof the wood is physicals:
1. Things made of chakra needs a steady supply of chakra to sustain itself or they disappear gradually, like chidori, Susano etc.
2. The enitre forest of Konoha was made by mokuton and they havent disappeared in years even though none feeds them chakra.

So, put 1+2= Mokuton a Physical thing not Chakra

So you don't think that the Preta path can absorb earth either? o_o

The Preta Path (餓鬼道, Gakidō) grants the user the ability to absorb an infinite amount of chakra in any form using the Blocking Technique Absorption Seal.
I still believe that Preta path would be able to absorb mokuton or at least the chakra in it. o_o
 

Cpt Long Schlong

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EMS Madara? Yes. Shodaime? LOL, cm'on Ryuu, I expect better from you :sy:
Shut up. I don't know who you think you are, but you're certainly not someone on this forum that can 'LOL' at people and expect them to agree with your opinion, especially when that person has been here, given more valid arguments and been a much better debater than you overall. Stop being arrogant.


Preta Path absorbs the chakra manipulating Mokuton and leaves dead wood. Any attack around Mokuton is useless, even the paralyzing pollen is useless, because Nagato could sense them and use his mastery of wind to simply waft them away.

Hashirama's healing is useless if he's hit with an Asura path missiles (which would blow up his torso, effectively destroying his CNS, maybe even destroying his head [brain]) It is also rendered useless if Human Path is used, and this isn't a huge stretch because Bansho Tennin and Human Path is a deadly combo

Clones are also another huge point that people bring up, but honestly what are they going to do? If any get close he could just use Chakra Explosion via Asura Path and destroy them all. If they use Mokuton, it will again be absorbed

Bringer of death is easily countered by shared summoning vision / amazing sensing abilities

Let's also not forget that Hashirma has no info of the Rinnegan so will not know any techniques. Meaning he will at first be oblivious to all the techniques. This means Human and Asura Path can be extra dangerous in this fight.

As well as this I don't think Hashirama has any counter to Chibaku Tensei, as he may be able to travel through ground, but the gravity is a lot more than he would be able to move in, so if he is caught in this he will die, no amount of healing will stop being crushed under thousands of tonnes of rock.

Classic Shinra Tensei will also be devastating, if you remember this:

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Then you will see that even in his skeleton state a Shinra Tensei was more than enough to toss fully grown trees away like crumbs, and this shows us the power of the paths in his normal body. Now make that a healthy Nagato and it's destroying any attack / defence Hashirama could possibly have

Worth a mention because most people forget: All paths are a lot more devastating in Nagato's original body than what we saw through the paths. And also note that we only saw these powers through a death-bed Nagato.
 
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Munboy

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Hashirama when we will know his full power (which is a lot more than Mokuton, healing and Genjutsu) will be > Nagato.

Hashirama with only Mokuton, healing and Genjutsu; not a convincing case to say him>Nagato.
 

Raito

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Even if he can't absorb mukuton it's self, He can asborb the chakra inside it, Thus rendering it useless.

Without chakra hashirama cannot move/manipulate the wood.
That is true, but in this case he has to touch it in order to absorb the chakra, what is quite impossible by the impact the Mokuton causes. As I already said, only one tendril has a huger diameter than a human.

The Mokuton cannot be absorbed, actually Preta Path doesn't absorb any kind of Ninjutsu but has the ability to ban chakra away.

He can absorb pure Chakra. For example the Rasenshuriken, pure chakra by forming the Rasengan and adding some of his Fuuton affinity. By the Mokuton, Hashirama is using his chakra in order to create physical matters, he creates live in form of trees.
 

Hashirama Senju 48

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He knows of the rinnegan powers yes, But to what extent, Also he has to factor in the user, there's no way he could possibly know how far nagato could take the rinnegan.

Kabuto also includes himself in this statement, So does this mean even with edo tensei that kabuto still isn't on his level?.
Kabuto also lacks info on current Naruto, he hasn't seen Bm form yet, Only Km.

personally i don't think he was counting the Dead/Edo tensei, Only the shonobi that are alive at this point in time.
Excluding Nagato/Hiruzen/Madara and so on.
Im not sure, but wasnt kabuto able to c Naruto's powers through the edo tensei when he was contolling the dead?
 

JakeLife510

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Not a fanboy of either but Nagato is a walking Nuke of Jutsus.
Nagato has OP jutsu that surely can out do Hashirama.
Shinra Tensei for all that wood or Preta all the wood.
Dog Summon for harassing potential, that Hashirama would have to fight while taking on Nagato.
Can hide in his invisible Gecko.
Summon Gedo.
Chibaku Tensei.
Missles and deady mechanical attachments.
Pull his soul.
Can Pull Hashirama in towards all that.

I understand Hashirama is a beast for taking on EMS Madara, Perfect Sussano and Kyuubi
But Nagato and his jutsu are too much for any ninja, Naruto and Bee proved Nagato was too much. As Kishi had to make Itachi, Killer Bee and Naruto have to gang up to defeat Nagato.

Plus has Hashirama ever faced a rinnegan user?
 

Exaar

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Im not sure, but wasnt kabuto able to c Naruto's powers through the edo tensei when he was contolling the dead?
Only when he was fighting with nagato/Itachi. thatw as Km.

kabuto has no controll what so ever of the jinchuurik, There under tobi's controll via Genjutsu and chakra rods.
 

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Shodaime's main offensive ability is his Mokuton, and like any other ninjutsu this attack is made of chakra, albeit chakra converted into another form. Nagato will be able to absorb this, as displayed when he absorbed Jiraiya's toad oil. Some find it hard to believe that Preta Path can absorb solid objects, but it can if they are formed initially from chakra.

Nagato has plenty of ways to end this match, but none as effective as the removal of Hashirama's soul. This can be done in two ways; firstly, through the use of Gedo Mazo. Nagato will be able to use the Soul Removal Dragon to instantly take Hashirama's soul, as he did against multiple shinobi in his battle against Hanzo. Note, Hanzo was only able to avoid this jutsu by using the body flicker technique.
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So unless Hashirama will be quick enough to escape this jutsu, he can expect to taste defeat. The second way in which Nagato can take Hashirama's soul is by using the Human Path. The Human Path grants the user the ability to remove the soul of any target they touched as well as read their mind. Now, by combining this with Banshou Tenin, Nagato can create a devastating combo. When under the influence of this jutsu, Hashirama will find it almost impossible to counter, as Naruto was completely immobilised when Nagato used it on him. Naruto only managed to escape due to his chakra arm.
Once being drawn in, Nagato can swiftly proceed to draw out Hashirama's soul.
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Nagato's ability to use multiple paths at once also give him a great advantage in this matchup:
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Hashirama's Mokuton clones can be kept away by Shinra Tensei. Remember, this is a shinra Tensei which the Deva Path was able to use in order to easily fling Gamabunta et al hundreds of yards into the mountains. Added to the fact that Naruto claimed all of Nagato's techniques were stronger when he used it in his real body, you'd be a fool to think Mokuton clones or their offensive techniques will get anyway near Nagato.

Nagato's summons will also cause Hashirama a great deal of difficulty. In particular, The Giant Snake-Tailed Chameleon. Now, this summon this creature can blend with its surroundings for camouflage, so perfectly that it renders itself completely invisible to other viewers around. If Hashirama expects to deal with Nagato, how is he going to stay alert of the invisible summon? It's either or. The Chameleon has feats of destroying houses, so it is not absurd to suggest it would be able to destroy any part of the forrest in which it is summoned in. The snake-tail can be used as a prehensile limb, to be able to grab and capture intended targets for Nagato, which also presents another opportunity for him to take Hashirama's soul.
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Hashirama may also have difficulty with dealing with Cereberus whilst trying to focus on Nagato. It can split apart, when struck, into individual dogs that can then merge back together. It also gains additional heads every time it splits in this way; so Hashirama will not be able to try and physically destroy it, and, without knowledge, is unlikely not to fall into this trap.

Bringer of Darkness does little except negate the sight of the opponent. Shinra Tensei would be able to sufficiently counter this, as Nagato uses himself as the center point, and anything which is not him get's hit. Also remember, Bringer of Darkness is a only short - mid range technique, so Hashirama is very likely to be affected by Shinra Tensei if he uses it.

A sick Nagato was able to use a Chibaku Tensei (through the Deva Path whilst being low on Chakra) capable of housing the Eight tails mode Kyuubi. Logically, a healthy Nagato would be able to create a stronger and bigger variation of this jutsu, one which Hashirama would very much struggle to escape. Mini mountain sized rocks > Wood, so I find it a stretch to say Mokuton will be able to break out of it.
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It took the best part of a Bijuu Dama, Rasen-Shuriken and Yasaka Magatama to destroy the core. It also took Itachi's genius to work out how to destroy it during the initial start up phase. I find it unlikely that Hashirama will have the speed of thought required in order to halt such a jutsu.

Hashirama's power may've been called a myth like the So6P, but let's remember, Nagato was actually called the Second Sage of 6 Paths, so it's not like Hashirama's hype completely overshadows Nagato's.
Not bad, not bad. I will answer you to this tomorrow, it is to late now here in Germany. So if you are interested in my answer, I will give you one :b.
 
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