Hiruzen, analyzed in a way no one has
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Guys please remember this is not a vs thread about hashi and hiru or anyone else, I'm just making this thread because hiru has appeared weaker then how iruka brags in the manga and I'm just trying to suggest doe reasoning on this 
Hipster Madara
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no, im not. i'm the type that doesn't feel bothered to re read the manga for ever single detail =DD
Rafeal brown
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ItachiSan03
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First off I'd like to point out I love this thread. +rep
I really think you analyzed him in almost the exact same way as I. (obviously with a few differences) But it is good to know that other people are trying to think about Hiruzen as what Kishi decided to call him, ie the Professor or The God of Shinobi. I have been under this impression for a while now.
I believe it is at least possible that He could have known how to Open the gates. the knowing all of the Leafs jutsus and Massive chakra reserves he couldn't use in his old age. Not to mention being trained by the 1st and 2nd hokage. Both Senjuu. (both are the body of the sage) so I'm sure poor little Hiruzen got beaten up ALL the time. He must've had extensive body and taijutsu training. Which I would assume would include the gates. I mean... didn't Kakshi say he could use the gates too? He just chooses not too? I'm just saying Its def possible that Hiruzen could do it.
However, I didn't agree with the part about Rasengan. I mean by the time it was invented, and became noteworthy, Hiruzen was already starting to end his Prime. started to get old. Also I did think that it had been stated that only Minato, Kakashi, Jiraiya, and Naruto could use the Rasengan. So thats just what I've been thinking there.
But Everything else is pretty much top notch, dude. I mean how beastly must he have been?!?! hahah! THE GOD OF SHINOBI! I mean If he could use Fire, Earth, Water and wind. I mean holy crap! and King Monkey Enma? Jeeeze. I just feel like, I wish Kishi would show us more of Hiruzen fighting in his prime! But I bet not a lot even happened, because everyone was probably so afraid of him. He lived pretty long. Must've been some sort of greater Peace during his time. lol
Anywho, thanks for a good one. you def put some work into it.
I really think you analyzed him in almost the exact same way as I. (obviously with a few differences) But it is good to know that other people are trying to think about Hiruzen as what Kishi decided to call him, ie the Professor or The God of Shinobi. I have been under this impression for a while now.
I believe it is at least possible that He could have known how to Open the gates. the knowing all of the Leafs jutsus and Massive chakra reserves he couldn't use in his old age. Not to mention being trained by the 1st and 2nd hokage. Both Senjuu. (both are the body of the sage) so I'm sure poor little Hiruzen got beaten up ALL the time. He must've had extensive body and taijutsu training. Which I would assume would include the gates. I mean... didn't Kakshi say he could use the gates too? He just chooses not too? I'm just saying Its def possible that Hiruzen could do it.
However, I didn't agree with the part about Rasengan. I mean by the time it was invented, and became noteworthy, Hiruzen was already starting to end his Prime. started to get old. Also I did think that it had been stated that only Minato, Kakashi, Jiraiya, and Naruto could use the Rasengan. So thats just what I've been thinking there.
But Everything else is pretty much top notch, dude.
I mean how beastly must he have been?!?! hahah! THE GOD OF SHINOBI! I mean If he could use Fire, Earth, Water and wind. I mean holy crap! and King Monkey Enma? Jeeeze. I just feel like, I wish Kishi would show us more of Hiruzen fighting in his prime! But I bet not a lot even happened, because everyone was probably so afraid of him. He lived pretty long. Must've been some sort of greater Peace during his time. lol Anywho, thanks for a good one. you def put some work into it.
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Prince of Persia TTT
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nothing is gonna change my friend
and also it doesnt proves
Hiruzen> Hashirama
Nidaimerocks
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OK, fine I will bite
We have seen chakra beasts in their 50's (Jiraiya, Raikage A, Raikagernaut, etc.). All those guys still had PLENTY of chakra in their 50's. Hiruzen was in his 50's when the kyuubi attacked and he still got tired before everybody else. This implies that he was never a chakra beast.
How do you come to this conclusion? Itachi in his prime did not have plenty of chakra. Kurenai did not either. Itachi is definitely a kage level ninja but he was never a chakra beast.
We have seen chakra beasts in their 50's (Jiraiya, Raikage A, Raikagernaut, etc.). All those guys still had PLENTY of chakra in their 50's. Hiruzen was in his 50's when the kyuubi attacked and he still got tired before everybody else. This implies that he was never a chakra beast.
Masterning all jutsu in Konoha is hype that has been proven wrong. Hiruzen could not use all five elements since Jiraiya, his student, said only Nagato could do that. He could not use any of the Konoha hijutsu either since the databook describes them as exclusive to the clans.
If he could use the 8 gates, why did he not use them against Orochimaru when he was running low on chakra? Not very convinced about this
Please. Jiraiya who has a shitload of chakra with Bunta, who has a shitload of chakra according to the databook, combined to use a katon and it still paled in comparison to the scale of jutsu Madara and Hashirama use. Hiruzen never had chakra on the level of Jiraiya, I don't see him using jutsu on the scale of those monsters
Didn't Kakashi say only Minato, Jiraiya and Naruto could use rasengan? I may be wrong
Seriously? Jounin level elemental jutsu and Enma would put up a better fight than jinton? PLEASE.
LMAO. That was pretty damn funny.
OT: Great thread. I'd like to add the fact that Hiruzen was also Hashirama's student, and therefore probably knew counters to his techs. And he also knew every past Kage's non-KG techs (The Professor).
I'd also like to add that I doubt Hashirama would let a weaker Hokage protect the village he founded, Hashirama would WANT Hiruzen to surpass him. Another thing I'd like to point out is that even if Hiruzen surpassed Hashirama, it doesn't mean Hiruzen can beat Edo Madara. It works like this, let's say Edo Madara is fire, Hashirama is water, and Hiruzen is lightning. Lightning won't necessairly beat fire just because it beats water in the narutoverse. But people don't get that, they assume it to be like DBZ where if Hashi is stronger than Edo Madara and Edo Madara beats Hiruzen, it means Hashi > Hiruzen.
The only thing I agree with is the thing about rasengan, everything else is simply incorrect, you really it would of bee wise to use the 8 gates against oro at his age? It would ave killed him and probably not get the job done......but in his prime on the other hand....also I think the fact that he used multiple large scale ninjutsu, shadow clones, a summoning and reaper death seal when the Anbu clearly stated he didn't have as much chakra as he used to is proof of how much chakra he mst of had before.
Scooby Doo
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Hiruzen being able to use every jutsu in Konoha is just a lie. Physically impossible , he doest have kekkei genkai,and he couldnt use rasengan for example(its stated somewhere in the manga I think by Tsunade when Jiraiya tried to teach Rasengan to Naruto that only Jiraiya and Minato could use it). And its impossible that Hiruzen could master all 5 elements, Jiraiya said its unheard of that someone mastered all 5 except Nagato.First off this isn't a hiruzen vs thread so their shouldn't be any flaming,trolling or fanboying and this thread shouldn't get closed. I've been seeing a lot of hiruzen vs threads lately especially hiruzen vs hashi threads and it's all stimming from iruka saying he was the strongest hokage. So let's do a completely logical and thorough analysis of hiruzen.He was obviously much stronger in his prime which is how everyone's using him in their arguments, in his prime...so let's discuss what that means. First of all he had a lot more chakra which means he could use many different and larger scale jutsus at once, plus make many shadow clones.Secondly he mastered every jutsu in the leaf which means with more chakra and all that jutsu he could combine shadow clones with sealing techs large scale fire style jutsu with wind style, water style with wind, he could use shadow shuriken techs and mix fire and wind style with those....we can also assume that in his
Prime he would of been able to use the 8 gates very well as well since that is a jutsu of the leaf so you combine all these techs and more coming one after another then you release he can attack in a variety of different ways allowing him the perfect strategy for every situation. Thirdly after seeing his massive earth wall against Edo tobi and his large firstyle tech we can surmise that in his prime with more chakra he could use a variety of more large scale jutsu and combine them using them consecutively for more effect, so maybe he isn't
Quite as large scale of a fighter as madara or hashi but you can see how in his prime he could make up for it or come close. Fourthly in his young age he would of been much quicker and more agile which means he would of been able to land techs such as the rasengan, which is a jutsu of the leaf created in his time so he must of known it, and other techs much easier then the older version we saw against oro so that does giver him a slight more advantage then the 69 year old version we saw. Fifthly he has enma, enma can transform into a large Bo staff which can change size and length and seems to be extremely powerful and durable.....in his young age, no, in his prime hiruzen would have been a serious beast with it. Going by all these details, not counting the reaper death seal, I say he could put up a better match against hashi or madara in his then any other Kage at this point in the manga....I wont give you my full opinion on that matter because this isn't a versus thread and I don't want it to get closed or for any flames to start. Now let's talk about reaper death seal, I could be mistake but he sealed the 1st and 2nd inside of shadow clones using this tech and it seemed as tho it only sealed himself when he used himself against oro so could it be possible to use the reaper death seal against opponents with shadow clones and have no harm come to yourself? This is just a question and theory, even if this isn't possible I have already given you enough reasoning up their to make my point. But if we discuss this and this is possible then we can easily see how hiruzen prime who could use multiple shadow clones (according to the Anbu in white watching his fight with oro) could be the strongest hokage. Even if not I
Believe I have made good enough points to prove he could at least matchup quite well with the op characters of naruto. No flaming or disrespect please, if I am wrong in any of these points then please explain how, I would love to learn.
1.its not stated or even implied in the manga that thats physically impossible and that's what counts.
2. Obviously kekkei genkai is an exception, their was no need for you to even say that.
3. The rasengan thing I agree with
4. No one ever said he mastered all 5 elements, just that he mastered every jutsu in the leaf, furthermore mastering the elements and being able to use them are two different things. Kakuzu used all 5 but he didn't have them mastered obviously because he could only use like 1 jutsu with each element.
blazekev90
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Scooby Doo
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1) Its implied if we think of Oro saying that it takes more than one's lifetime to master every jutsu (that were on the scrolls in Konoha)...
2) Yes it was needed to say
(just kidding but then if its an exception then there can be many other exceptions)3)OK
4) Then the only thing I can imagine is that using jutsus through scrolls (for example like when Shikamaru used water against Kakuzu with a scroll)
1. 69 years is pretty close to a lifetime, oro partially meant he wanted to avoid only gaining that knowledge in is old age like his master.1) Its implied if we think of Oro saying that it takes more than one's lifetime to master every jutsu (that were on the scrolls in Konoha)...
2) Yes it was needed to say
3)OK
4) Then the only thing I can imagine is that using jutsus through scrolls (for example like when Shikamaru used water against Kakuzu with a scroll)
2. The kekkei genkai thing is obvious lol
4. Yeah that's a possibility as well
Btw I edited my theory post to put it in paragraphs now that I figured out how to on my iPad. I also took out the rasengan possibility because It was proven that he didn't have that tech. I will edit it more and more when facts from the manga are brought to prove certain things right or wrong.
Oh lol. noone can master 5 elements? didn't I already dissaprove this shit?
Kishi outright put in his databook that it's possible but would take many long years...
Jiraya SAID IT'S UNHEARD OF TO MASTER THEM ALL AT THE AGE NAGATO DID...
he did at 10 years...
As for the dude who said it's impossible for him to have it because tsunade said only minato and jiraya have it? I don't recall her ever saying that
And do you forget kakashi pulled out raasengan and showed naruto?
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Kishi outright put in his databook that it's possible but would take many long years...
Jiraya SAID IT'S UNHEARD OF TO MASTER THEM ALL AT THE AGE NAGATO DID...
he did at 10 years...
As for the dude who said it's impossible for him to have it because tsunade said only minato and jiraya have it? I don't recall her ever saying that
And do you forget kakashi pulled out raasengan and showed naruto?
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