Hashirama's power being considered a myth doesn't mean anything.

[arv993]

Possibly. But its also possible that many rogue villages attacked Konoha, and Hashirama defended it. I don't see how a village would have a Kage without knowing the full extent of their power.




There certainly had to be a good amount of 40-80 year olds from Hashirama's era that also witnessed Hiruzen's.


But for both of you guys, we'll never know if Kishi changed his mind till we see the new databooks, so this debate is a little pointless.

For ur first statement he was already very powerful no doubt about it he was the leader and fought against the toughest people but didnt need to show off his full extent which as madara stated is so much that they even change the landscapes. when he fought people like madara it seemed to be 1v1 cos ppl cant really witness due to the fact they will be in danger. i would only say a select few ppl witnessted their true strength even ppl as strong as mu and oonoki together didnt see madara go all out so the same applies for hashi

And kage is just not about power which hashi has but the fact that he is well liked and can deal well with other ppl which is the main reason he was picked as the hokage where as madara was an arrogant bastard.

yea if the new databook still says hiruzen is the best i will not even bother arguing but at this point it does not seem so with hashi's true potential coming to light

 

[FizzyDrink]

Kishi stated Hiruzen was the strongest because he wrote the Manga and Databooks.

Can you quote where in the manga/databooks it directly says "Hiruzen is the strongest hokage", because what I read were wordings using phrases such as "is called" and "was said to be". That clearly shows that some imaginary Leaf villagers said that and believed it, but it's not necessarily true. Unless it is directly stated that he is the strongest, all pro-Hiruzen debators are basing their arguments on opinions, not facts.

 

[lonewolf77766]

Can you quote where in the manga/databooks it directly says "Hiruzen is the strongest hokage", because what I read were wordings using phrases such as "is called" and "was said to be". That clearly shows that some imaginary Leaf villagers said that and believed it, but it's not necessarily true. Unless it is directly stated that he is the strongest, all pro-Hiruzen debators are basing their arguments on opinions, not facts.

How is it opinion when it was stated and proven in a fight?

 

[arv993]

How is it opinion when it was stated and proven in a fight?

what fight. a fight where oro was severely underestimating hiruzen and started toying with him and even let him to prepare his his death reaper jutsu. that fight didnt prove he was better

 

[FizzyDrink]

How is it opinion when it was stated and proven in a fight?

Stated where? Please, show me, so that I can show you that it is not factual at all. And please don't bring up the fight, that's just ridiculous. First of all, the power-scaling in part 1 is WAYYY lower than in part 2. Secondly, he was ENTIRELY under Orochimaru's control, and clearly Orochimaru did not know the full extent of Hashirama's power, otherwise he would have used other jutsu's that Hashi was capable of. Secondly, they COMPLETELY dominated Hiruzen. When bringer of darkness was in full effect, they could have killed him EASILY. Orochimaru was playing with Hiruzen, and Hiruzen caught him by surprise with a jutsu he'd never heard of. So the fight in NO WAY dictates who's stronger. Next.

 

[lonewolf77766]

what fight. a fight where oro was severely underestimating hiruzen and started toying with him and even let him to prepare his his death reaper jutsu. that fight didnt prove he was better

It's a fight that Hiruzen was letting his guard down, he allowed to be toyed. How many times that TOYING THING was debunked?

 

[arv993]

It's a fight that Hiruzen was letting his guard down, he allowed to be toyed. How many times that TOYING THING was debunked?

wtf are u smoking he let himself be toyed that is some bs. hashi used his bringer of darkness so he couldnt see anything and then the kages never hit a killing blow but were toying with him. its not debunked at all

 

[lonewolf77766]

wtf are u smoking he let himself be toyed that is some bs. hashi used his bringer of darkness so he couldnt see anything and then the kages never hit a killing blow but were toying with him. its not debunked at all

Your argument was debunked.

Are you saying the manga is lying?

I post a thread about this, with scans to back it up. I suggest you to read the manga again.

You must be registered for see links

 

[a shadow hero]

FAIL,..

 

[arv993]

Your argument was debunked.

Are you saying the manga is lying?

I post a thread about this, with scans to back it up. I suggest you to read the manga again.

You must be registered for see links

if so care to explain. u cant just say argument debunked with absolutely no evidence or words countering it

 

[FizzyDrink]

Your argument was debunked.

Are you saying the manga is lying?

I post a thread about this, with scans to back it up. I suggest you to read the manga again.

You must be registered for see links

Wrong, wrong, wrong. But lets say he DID allow them to toy with him. It doesn't take away from the fact that at any point in time, Orochimaru could have decided that enough was enough, and stabbed him in the heart with a kunai. For all intents and purposes, he should have lost, and only plot (plot being Orochimaru trying to humiliate him and bring him down as low as possible) kept him alive.

 

[lonewolf77766]

if so care to explain. u cant just say argument debunked with absolutely no evidence or words countering it

I guess the manga I posted was wrong, right?

arv993 >>> Kishimoto

Wrong, wrong, wrong. But lets say he DID allow them to toy with him. It doesn't take away from the fact that at any point in time, Orochimaru could have decided that enough was enough, and stabbed him in the heart with a kunai. For all intents and purposes, he should have lost, and only plot (plot being Orochimaru trying to humiliate him and bring him down as low as possible) kept him alive.

I could use your argument that Hiruzen could have decided that enough was enough, and put his guard up and stop being compassionate from the beginning. Hiruzen could have finish the fight early if he wasn't compassionate.

 

[arv993]

I guess the manga I posted was wrong, right?

arv993 >>> Kishimoto

so whats ur point he allowed himself to be hurt like that. oro could have killed him at any moment but chose not to its that simple. even if he was conscious of everything wtf would he have done against the bringer of darkness with 3 kage level opponents standing there and oro even let him use his final jutsu

 

[FlyingThunderGodHax]

You're kidding, right? I could write a story where a character believes one thing but it isn't true. Kishi wrote dialouge in part one where Ten Ten and Rock Lee claim that Neji is an unrivaled genious and none of the other genin would beat him. Was that the truth just because Kishi wrote that in the dialouge? You post has just been deemed invalid.

Bolded part: Have you heard of plot shield? If they had that same fight without naruto being the antagonist of the show, who do you think would honestly win?
Any neutral member would agree that Neji at that time should have stomped Naruto
Also remember Naruto had Kurama which was basically kishi's way of covering up naruto's OP plot armour. :sy:

 

[FizzyDrink]

I could use your argument that Hiruzen could have decided that enough was enough, and put his guard up and stop being compassionate from the beginning. Hiruzen could have finish the fight early if he wasn't compassionate.

How??? How in the world would he have done that??? Please, enlighten me! Because when I read that battle, what I saw was the third hokage giving his full power, and being completely played around with. In bringer of darkness they were seriously beating him while he was just standing there. There was no where in that battle clearly stating that he was not trying his hardest. I saw your thread, it's utter rubbish, doesn't prove anything. Please provide a scan that clearly shows Hiruzen not trying his hardest in that battle.

 

[lonewolf77766]

so whats ur point he allowed himself to be hurt like that. oro could have killed him at any moment but chose not to its that simple. even if he was conscious of everything wtf would he have done against the bringer of darkness with 3 kage level opponents standing there and oro even let him use his final jutsu

Yes, he allowed himself to be hurt like that because Hiruzen was compassionate fighting his Sensei and Students, it was stated in the manga. Hiruzen was just waiting for the technique to take effect, thus letting his guard down also.

How??? How in the world would he have done that??? Please, enlighten me! Because when I read that battle, what I saw was the third hokage giving his full power, and being completely played around with. In bringer of darkness they were seriously beating him while he was just standing there. There was no where in that battle clearly stating that he was not trying his hardest. I saw your thread, it's utter rubbish, doesn't prove anything. Please provide a scan that clearly shows Hiruzen not trying his hardest in that battle.

You didn't read the complete scan, you only read the Toy part then stop, LOL.

 

[FizzyDrink]

Bolded part: Have you heard of plot shield? If they had that same figh without naruto being the antagonist of the movies who do you think would honestly win? Also remember Naruto had Kurama :sy:

You do mean "protagonist of the manga" don't you? I sure hope you know what you're talking about...

And what of it? It was stated in dialouge, like you asked. Yet Kishi later proved himself wrong (if we use your logic). I'll provide another example.

Who do you think has a better sense of smell, Kakashi or Kiba?

You'd better say Kiba, because he has clearly shown throughout the manga much high nasal abilities.

However, Naruto states that Kakashi has a better sense of smell than Kakashi. How in the world is he supposed to know that??? There is no way, and it is for the most part disregarded. This is the same thing. Just because A CHARACTER in the manga says something, that doesn't mean that the auther himself believes it.

 

[FizzyDrink]

You didn't read the complete scan, you only read the Toy part then stop, LOL.

Oh I read the compassionate part, and you took it entirely out of context. He let his guard down because Orochimaru had just revealed to him Oro's new face, and the compassionate quote is directed at the fact that Hiruzen couldn't believe that Orochimaru had done such awful things. Hiruzen did not go fighting the entire fight with his guard down because he felt compassion towards Oro or the other hokage. So I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

 

[lonewolf77766]

Oh I read the compassionate part, and you took it entirely out of context. He let his guard down because Orochimaru had just revealed to him Oro's new face, and the compassionate quote is directed at the fact that Hiruzen couldn't believe that Orochimaru had done such awful things. Hiruzen did not go fighting the entire fight with his guard down because he felt compassion towards Oro or the other hokage. So I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Just as I thought, you didn't read it, after you read the word TOY, you already jump out of happiness. Hiruzen allowed them to toy him because he was waiting for the Dead Demon Consuming Seal to move. It's not Hiruzen fault if he was toyed and it's not Oro, Hashi and Tobirama's fault if Hiruzen was too compassionate and letting his guard down and Dead Demon Consuming Seal needs prep time to let his guard down. It was all the plot, and Hiruzen won, stop using excuses, live with it.

 

[FizzyDrink]

Just as I thought, you didn't read it, after you read the word TOY, you already jump out of happiness. Hiruzen allowed them to toy him because he was waiting for the Dead Demon Consuming Seal to move. It's not Hiruzen fault if he was toyed and it's not Oro, Hashi and Tobirama's fault if Hiruzen was too compassionate and letting his guard down and Dead Demon Consuming Seal needs prep time to let his guard down. It was all the plot, and Hiruzen won, stop using excuses, live with it.

Listen. Hiruzen wasn't "letting them toy" with him. He had no choice. All he could hope for was that Orochimaru wouldn't decide to kill him before the Dead Demon Seal was ready. And apparently you didn't read my comment well at all, because Hiruzen was not letting his guard down throughout the entire fight, nor was there any compassion throughout the entire fight, you took it completely out of context. Hiruzen let his guard down that ONE time because Orochimaru had just suprised him with a new face. And Orochimaru accused Hiruzen of being too compassionate because Hiruzen wasn't willing to do anything to stay alive, as he was.

Anyways, on to the real discussion, since you're wrong on this point, and no where is it DIRECTLY stated that Hiruzen is the strongest hokage, then Hiruzen cannot be proven beyond a doubt to be stronger. Done. There is nothing more to say.