Nagato & Itachi vs. Hashirama & Hiruzen

[TheSages456]

he is restraining it with wood and don;t forget he is open to attck from itachi . Once again clones cannot hold itachi

and why not. clones have all the abilities that the original has. the clones can use mokuton just like the original would to restrain susano.

 

[iMicLykTyson]

and why not. clones have all the abilities that the original has. the clones can use mokuton just like the original would to restrain susano.

His clones can defeat itachi :sy:

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

His clones

show me proof he can make more than 1 clone

they were not mountain, just big slabs of earth. gedo mazo isnt stronger than 100% kurama so i dont see what your getting at here.

yes he is. kuramas best strength feat is smashing buildings with a swipe, and breaking out of chibaku tensei. it was noted that the tw MOUNTAIN SIZED rocks that dwarfed a division were pushed away like it was nothing.

it knocked the 5 kages out the moment they were in range

exactly. itachi unliek them can see the spores and dodge

well nagato doesnt have it anymore

if this is the combatants at their absolute prime then yes he does

based on madara being called the strongest uchiha in history.

obviously not taking into account the first uchiha, or uchihas currently existing (tobi). people can call him what they want. but the strongest uchihas are hiding their real power from everyone (sasuke and itachi)

there is a maximum size that it can attain.

no there isnt. when 8 tailed kurama broke out, nagato said "ill enlarge it"

its the only way to beat a bijuu. you cant kill them so you can only suppress and seal them.

THEN WHY DID YOU SAY HE BEAT IT IF HE DIDNT? if theres no way to defeat a bijuu then theres no way to defeat a bijuu. unique controlling powers dont defeat make. in that case madara already defeated him with sharingan.

hashirama didnt fight itachi but he fought a bloodlusted madara who wanted him dead.

madara wanted his DNA so he could later grow a living clone from the tissue taken from him as well as inject himself with it to gain his powers and therefore the rinnegan.

he would push it apart from the inside. you can obviously fight against its force.

so why are you saying he can push it apart if nothing can?

because it worked so well against nagato and naruto right? itachi isnt taking out god tier characters with that

he took care of nagato without using any genjutsu though he could have used it. he took down nartuo who then needed his friends to bail him out of it. and plus since itachi was 30% it was weaker too. we've been through this

hashirama can make a wood wall all around himself. there would be no blindspots

except to being penetrated by totsuka blade or absorbed by preta.

do you even know how izanami works? its not working on hashirama.

it traps the opponent in an infinite loop until the opponent accepts the paramaters for breaking out of it which are accepting whats about to happen to them, in hashiramas case dying

then hashirama would sprout an entire tree out his arm to block itachis vision and redirect totsuka.

lol while hes busy with that nagato will have finished him off with bansho tennin + soul rip or gedo mazo punch

thats funny as madara told onoki that this type of ninjutsu doesnt work against the rinnegan when he absorbed onokis jinton.

madara is not aware of the inner workings of rinnegan but the databook is

where was it stated that hashirama couldnt use multi mokuton bunshins?

by that logic, where was it stated nagato cant use mokuton? madara has hashis cells, he doesnt have hashi himself. his taijuu bunshins is his own creation.

if it couldnt absorb narutos shadow clone then its not absorbing mokuton.

if it can absorb jinton then its absorbing wood. dust is more advanced than wood since its 3 elements mixed, not 2.

rinnegan absorbs certain types of ninjutsu as stated by madara.

rinnegan absorbs anything and everything chakra based as stated by kishi

that means that nobody thinks that any shinobi from the current era can compare to hashirama. that just helps my argument.

that also means they havent seen BM naruto or tobis powers yet, shinobi who can compete but onyl got the power to do so recently. same with kabuto

where was it stated that hashirama could make more than 1 wood clone

nowhere. thats my point.

it gets restrained by mokuton. it cant break it unless your saying

it will break it when its been smashed by nagatos rocket fist

 

[TheSages456]

His clones can defeat itachi :sy:

the same way madaras clones are about to kill the kages yes. what part of clones have all the abilities of the original do you not understand?

 

[TheSages456]

show me proof he can make more than 1 clone

so you are saying that madara just pulled multi mokuton bunshins out of his ass despite it never being implied that he knew it before hashiramas dna. he obviously saw hashirama use it before.

yes he is. kuramas best strength feat is smashing buildings with a swipe, and breaking out of chibaku tensei. it was noted that the tw MOUNTAIN SIZED rocks that dwarfed a division were pushed away like it was nothing.

nagato said that kurama had to be sealed last or gedo mazo would shatter due to the imbalance. this implies that 100% kurama=every other tailed beast. last time i checked gedo mazo doesnt have the hachibi, only beasts 1-7.

exactly. itachi unliek them can see the spores and dodge

the pollen is all over the battlefield. when itachi gets pulled out of susano then he done

if this is the combatants at their absolute prime then yes he does

it gets restrained and suppressed by mokuton anyway.

obviously not taking into account the first uchiha, or uchihas currently existing (tobi). people can call him what they want. but the strongest uchihas are hiding their real power from everyone (sasuke and itachi)

itachi himself said that he wasnt as strong as madara so thats a moot point.

no there isnt. when 8 tailed kurama broke out, nagato said "ill enlarge it"

it cant grow bigger forever though. madaras meteor is larger than it and the meteor is dwarfed by hashiramas mokuton forest in size.

THEN WHY DID YOU SAY HE BEAT IT IF HE DIDNT? if theres no way to defeat a bijuu then theres no way to defeat a bijuu. unique controlling powers dont defeat make. in that case madara already defeated him with sharingan.

the same way SO6P beat the juubi. you always need a way to seal the bijuu to defeat it. hashiramas mokuton is just more convenient as he doesnt need to get an outside source to suppress a bijuus power and seal it.


madara wanted his DNA so he could later grow a living clone from the tissue taken from him as well as inject himself with it to gain his powers and therefore the rinnegan.

you can still get dna from a dead body. it was never stated madara only fought for hashiramas dna. he lost then tried to make the best of the situation and took some dna.

so why are you saying he can push it apart if nothing can?

hashiramas forest dwarfs madaras meteor in size which is bigger than chibaku tensei. hashirama would make a forest inside of it and destroy it from the inside.

he took care of nagato without using any genjutsu though he could have used it. he took down nartuo who then needed his friends to bail him out of it. and plus since itachi was 30% it was weaker too. we've been through this
except to being penetrated by totsuka blade or absorbed by preta.

the genjutsu wasnt weaker. where are you getting this from. itachi had enough chakra to use the genjutsu. it wasnt weaker just because it came from a clone.

it traps the opponent in an infinite loop until the opponent accepts the paramaters for breaking out of it which are accepting whats about to happen to them, in hashiramas case dying

izanami works on people who are trying to change their destiny. izanami forces them to accept it. itachi cant program it so hashirama has to accept death.

lol while hes busy with that nagato will have finished him off with bansho tennin + soul rip or gedo mazo punch

gedo mazo will have already been taken out of play. hashirama sprouts wood from his body the moment he gets close to nagato.

madara is not aware of the inner workings of rinnegan but the databook is

the databook states that orochimaru created edo tensei and it has naruto and sakura as equals.

by that logic, where was it stated nagato cant use mokuton? madara has hashis cells, he doesnt have hashi himself. his taijuu bunshins is his own creation.

because its been stated that wood release is kekkei genkai unique to the first. use common sense. madara has shown no sign of knowing multi mokuton bunshins. getting hashiramas mokuton wouldnt change that. he obviously saw hashirama use it.

if it can absorb jinton then its absorbing wood. dust is more advanced than wood since its 3 elements mixed, not 2.
rinnegan absorbs anything and everything chakra based as stated by kishi

its the properties of wood style that shows why it cant be absorbed. the databook isnt accurate.

that also means they havent seen BM naruto or tobis powers yet, shinobi who can compete but onyl got the power to do so recently. same with kabuto

kabuto knows of tobis rinnegan powers and gedo mazo with bijuus.

nowhere. thats my point.

i made a mistake. i meant where was it stated that he couldnt make multiple wood clones.

it will break it when its been smashed by nagatos rocket fist

missles get blocked by wood walls and trees

counters above.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

so you are saying that madara just pulled multi mokuton bunshins out of his ass despite it never being implied that he knew it before hashiramas dna.

its never implied it came from hashiramas DNA in the first place or that its a viable technique for a living being whos not naruto to perform. theres a reason its forbidden and sealed in a scroll by hashirama himself.

nagato said that kurama had to be sealed last or gedo mazo would shatter due to the imbalance. this implies that 100% kurama=every other tailed beast

thats just how it works, not an example of power. they are sealed in order or they wont resurrect juubi

the pollen is all over the battlefield. when itachi gets pulled out of susano then he done

it wont be all over the battlefield in seconds. or madara wouldnt have needed to knock them down when gaara made them fly up.

the same way SO6P beat the juubi. you always need a way to seal the bijuu to defeat it.

its not defeating it though. its moving it from one place, to another place. in this case inside him. and having a special unique power that controls them isnt beating them.

itachi himself said that he wasnt as strong as madara so thats a moot point.

itachi said alot of things when he was "pretending to be evil". i suppose your one of those jiraiya > itachi and kisame believers then?

it gets restrained and suppressed by mokuton anyway.

so mokuton suppresses inanimate objects now? ITS..A...STATUE! and the bijuus arent using their power while inside of it so theres nothign to supress and no way of permanently restraining it when nagato and itachi wont just stare at trees as they hold down their summon.

it cant grow bigger forever though. madaras meteor is larger than it

COULD be larger. it can and will keep growing bigger than a meteor

the meteor is dwarfed by hashiramas mokuton forest in size.

no it isnt as we've never seen hashirama make a forest. not once. not ever.

you can still get dna from a dead body.

why bother when you can capture the real thing alive and get all you need from him?

hashirama would make a forest inside of it and destroy it from the inside.

nothing can do that! it wont break apart just because woods forming inside of it. and even if hashirama wants to destroy it, the dust cloud will open the door for another attack specifically totsuka. and it will be such a surprise that he cant counter. unless you think his reactions are better than edo nagato who was reacting to kcm narutos speed

the genjutsu wasnt weaker. where are you getting this from. itachi had enough chakra to use the genjutsu. it wasnt weaker just because it came from a clone.

everything is weaker if it comes from a fukin clone! first thing we learn in naruto about clones! they are CLONES! CLOOONNNNESSS! NOT REAL! CLONES! AS IN REPLICAS! FAKES! IMITATIONS! AS MUCH FULL POWER BEINGS FOR ITACHI AS YAMATO IS FOR HASHIRAMA.

itachi cant program it so hashirama has to accept death.

if his destiny is death then hes fighting it

gedo mazo will have already been taken out of play

there isnt anything hashirama could possibly do to defeat it so no it hasnt. even if he TRIES holding it down, nagato will have takent he opportunity to finish him off.

missles get blocked by wood walls and trees

wood vs metal and mechanised explosive rounds...i think metal wins

i meant where was it stated that he couldnt make multiple wood clones.

the panels where we did see him fight show no mass clones whatsoever. if its a main part of his style, what happened vs hiruzen? did he just forget?

its the properties of wood style that shows why it cant be absorbed. the databook isnt accurate

it was accurate before when stating what a wonderful godlike being hiruzen was....either you accept it or you dont. its supported by the manga and never contradicted. pretas never failed to absorb any chakra based attack. never! its an inexhaustible vortex sucking any technique inside it.

because its been stated that wood release is kekkei genkai unique to the first. use common sense. madara has shown no sign of knowing multi mokuton bunshins.

and yet has. huh...anyway you cant just hand madaras feats over to hashiramas. theres a reason he didnt use all this shit on a daily basis and why he forbade the use of multiple kage bunshin

the databook states that orochimaru created edo tensei and it has naruto and sakura as equals.

thats an example of outdated contradicted info. obvously in raw power naruto > sakura but her genjutsu, seal and intelligence scores even'd out narutos higher scores in taijutsu and ninjutsu.

preta paths info has never been made obsolete or contradicted

 

[Shirou Emiya]

Team 2 hashirama>madara madara > Nagato
Hiruzen ... Idk

 

[Prime Rib]

close the thread its a troll one, and hashirama wins easy

 

[The Grand Pubba]

Team hokage takes this.

Even if people say that hashirama cant take nagato hiruzen is there to help.

Nagato is mentioned to lack mobility ( even when he is healthy stated by Kabuto) so in worse case scenario Hiruzen could use Reaper Death seal on him (the thread made no restrictions) take nagato with him.

Hashirama can take care of Itachi. Hashi is the last one standing. Team 2 wins

 

[TheSages456]

its never implied it came from hashiramas DNA in the first place or that its a viable technique for a living being whos not naruto to perform. theres a reason its forbidden and sealed in a scroll by hashirama himself.

so your saying hashirama cant use it, he definitely has the chakra reserves for it. some of his cells gave danzo enough energy to easily sustain 10 or 11 sharingans i think.

thats just how it works, not an example of power. they are sealed in order or they wont resurrect juubi

no the bijuus arent sealed in order. the 7 tails was sealed pre shipudden. akatsuki sealed shukaku, matabi and saiken during shipudden. the kyuubi had to be sealed last because it was too strong.

it wont be all over the battlefield in seconds. or madara wouldnt have needed to knock them down when gaara made them fly up.

the pollen will cover the area beneath the trees in seconds.

its not defeating it though. its moving it from one place, to another place. in this case inside him. and having a special unique power that controls them isnt beating them.

can the creature continue fighting. no they cant. its a defeat

itachi said alot of things when he was "pretending to be evil". i suppose your one of those jiraiya > itachi and kisame believers then?

why would itachi have any reason to lie about being weaker than madara?

so mokuton suppresses inanimate objects now? ITS..A...STATUE! and the bijuus arent using their power while inside of it so theres nothign to supress and no way of permanently restraining it when nagato and itachi wont just stare at trees as they hold down their summon.

its a living statue. hashirama can suppress the bijuu chakra inside of it.

COULD be larger. it can and will keep growing bigger than a meteor

nope it wont.

no it isnt as we've never seen hashirama make a forest. not once. not ever.

madara said that he has some of hashiramas power so whatever madaras doing still isnt as good as hashirama. please dont give some bullshit hes an edo with rinnegan argument. edos dont have infinite energy.

why bother when you can capture the real thing alive and get all you need from him?

because madara knows that he doesnt need hashiramas entire body to get wood release.

nothing can do that! it wont break apart just because woods forming inside of it. and even if hashirama wants to destroy it, the dust cloud will open the door for another attack specifically totsuka. and it will be such a surprise that he cant counter. unless you think his reactions are better than edo nagato who was reacting to kcm narutos speed

we dont know how fast hashiramas reaction speed was. we are going by what we see through madara and his hype.

everything is weaker if it comes from a fukin clone! first thing we learn in naruto about clones! they are CLONES! CLOOONNNNESSS! NOT REAL! CLONES! AS IN REPLICAS! FAKES! IMITATIONS! AS MUCH FULL POWER BEINGS FOR ITACHI AS YAMATO IS FOR HASHIRAMA.

the clone had more than enough chakra for the genjutsu. the clone is an exact copy of the original except it had less chakra.

if his destiny is death then hes fighting it

thats not how izanami works.

there isnt anything hashirama could possibly do to defeat it so no it hasnt. even if he TRIES holding it down, nagato will have takent he opportunity to finish him off.

the wood that restrains 100% kurama is taking down gedo mazo

wood vs metal and mechanised explosive rounds...i think metal wins

100% kurama>>>>asura missles and wood style>>kurama, wood style can tank some missles.

the panels where we did see him fight show no mass clones whatsoever. if its a main part of his style, what happened vs hiruzen? did he just forget?

hashirama didnt use the flower tree world or even 1 clone. tobirama didnt use any space-time ninjutsu. their powers werent fully shown.

it was accurate before when stating what a wonderful godlike being hiruzen was....either you accept it or you dont. its supported by the manga and never contradicted. pretas never failed to absorb any chakra based attack. never! its an inexhaustible vortex sucking any technique inside it.

it failed to absorb narutos shadow clone

and yet has. huh...anyway you cant just hand madaras feats over to hashiramas. theres a reason he didnt use all this shit on a daily basis and why he forbade the use of multiple kage bunshin

just like tobirama forbade edo tensei but used it prior.

thats an example of outdated contradicted info. obvously in raw power naruto > sakura but her genjutsu, seal and intelligence scores even'd out narutos higher scores in taijutsu and ninjutsu.

naruto>sakura

preta paths info has never been made obsolete or contradicted

it has in the pain fight.

counters above

 

[TobisPawn]

and why not. clones have all the abilities that the original has. the clones can use mokuton just like the original would to restrain susano.

Because, you know, Itachi totally doesn't have Amaterasu or Katon. And he obviously doesn't have Nagato backing him up either.

Oh, and did I forget? Itachi obviously won't be moving around and avoiding attacks either!!

 

[TheSages456]

Because, you know, Itachi totally doesn't have Amaterasu or Katon. And he obviously doesn't have Nagato backing him up either.

Oh, and did I forget? Itachi obviously won't be moving around and avoiding attacks either!!

itachis not avoiding any attacks if he is camping in susano. hashirama can make clones to use mokuton to restrain susano, pull itachi out and make him inhale the pollen from the flower tree world. while his clones do this hashirama is taking care of nagato.

 

[Typhon Uchiha]

Team 1 takes this......Tell me how they're going to escape a bansho ten'n and totsuka sword combo??

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

so your saying hashirama cant use it, he definitely has the chakra reserves for it. some of his cells gave danzo enough energy to easily sustain 10 or 11 sharingans i think.

im saying he probably forbade its use and then grew out of practice with it. he didnt stay as he was vs madara forever as he obviously died prematurely.

the pollen will cover the area beneath the trees in seconds.

moot point. two doujutsu users will see the microscopic cells

can the creature continue fighting. no they cant. its a defeat

yes they can from the inside out. and if your logic is to be believed MITO defeated kyuubi

why would itachi have any reason to lie about being weaker than madara?

why would he have any reason to lie about wanting to rip his brothers eyes out? and besides didnt he say madara was a bitter broken joke, not stronger than him?

its a living statue. hashirama can suppress the bijuu chakra inside of it.

no he cant. as it would serve no purpose and not even slow the statue down. it appears alive because of the rinnegans control

madara said that he has some of hashiramas power so whatever madaras doing still isnt as good as hashirama

no. hes doing muhc muhc muhc better. invincible immortal with unlimited chakra > living being

please dont give some bullshit hes an edo with rinnegan argument. edos dont have infinite energy.

yes they do. point me to where one of them gets tired. point me to where madara gets tired despite using giant forests, two meteors, constant susano etc

because madara knows that he doesnt need hashiramas entire body to get wood release

.
wouldnt hurt for his research. kabuto didnt just take yamatos flesh, he got him alive to power up zetsu

the clone is an exact copy of the original except it had less chakra.

EXACTLY. meaning less POWER

the wood that restrains 100% kurama is taking down gedo mazo

wood that specialises in calming bijuu down and suppressing their instincts is not taking out a statue that has no consciousness to supress

hashirama didnt use the flower tree world or even 1 clone. tobirama didnt use any space-time ninjutsu. their powers werent fully shown.

hiruzen sealed them before they could and oro wanted to torture hiruzen not put him to sleep

it failed to absorb narutos shadow clone

scans. also thats different. you cant absorb a clone, only its chakra

it has in the pain fight.

no it never ever has. not even once

 

[TheSages456]

im saying he probably forbade its use and then grew out of practice with it. he didnt stay as he was vs madara forever as he obviously died prematurely.

well hashirama can do anything madara can do with mokuton.

moot point. two doujutsu users will see the microscopic cells

too bad they cant avoid it. unless they fly on nagatos bird. the moment it hovers near a branch, hashirama comes out, grows trees from his body and smacks them in range of the pollen.

yes they can from the inside out. and if your logic is to be believed MITO defeated kyuubi

hashirama sealed kurama in mito so hashirama beat him as hashirama was the on who sealed him away.

why would he have any reason to lie about wanting to rip his brothers eyes out? and besides didnt he say madara was a bitter broken joke, not stronger than him?

itachi said if i could get ems i could surpass him or something.

no he cant. as it would serve no purpose and not even slow the statue down. it appears alive because of the rinnegans control
no. hes doing muhc muhc muhc better. invincible immortal with unlimited chakra > living being

the statue cant use any techs and doesnt have its massive strength without chakra unless nagato wants to become crippled again.

yes they do. point me to where one of them gets tired. point me to where madara gets tired despite using giant forests, two meteors, constant susano etc

the 2nd mizukage was weakened after using joki boy and muu was at half strength after splitting. edos are exact replicas of their alive versions with regeneration(excluding modified edos).

.
wouldnt hurt for his research. kabuto didnt just take yamatos flesh, he got him alive to power up zetsu

well madara was fine with only taking a bit of hashiramas dna.

EXACTLY. meaning less POWER
wood that specialises in calming bijuu down and suppressing their instincts is not taking out a statue that has no consciousness to supress

mokuton actually has to restrain them first. the process doesnt happen instantly. the statue will not operate without chakra unless nagato wants to become crippled again.

hiruzen sealed them before they could and oro wanted to torture hiruzen not put him to sleep

so how is that fight any indication of hashiramas strength?

scans. also thats different. you cant absorb a clone, only its chakra

so preta path can absorb madaras meteor. it is a ninjutsu.

no it never ever has. not even once

shadow clones are a ninjutsu and preta path failed to absorb it

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counters above

 

[narutownsyouall]

Hashirama an Hiruzen.

Itachi would not be able to do much and Nagato would pretty much be in a 2 V. 1 with Two of the strongest ninja in history.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

Nagato would pretty much be in a 2 V. 1 with Two of the strongest ninja in history.

hiruzens not even in top 20 lol.

Itachi would not be able to do much

hiruzen doesnt stand a chance against him

well hashirama can do anything madara can do with mokuton.

based on? madaras an immortal whos fused hashiramas powers with his own. to say madara =hashirama in mokuton, is to say vegetto = goku

too bad they cant avoid it. unless they fly on nagatos bird.

1. hold their breath
2. nagato either uses wind release gale storm or shinra tensei. with the polllen broken up/disipated, its no threat.

smacks them in range of the pollen.

as soon as he comes close, hes sucked into preta path then shot by nagatos head cannon (for feats of that attack, it destroyed a block of konoha buildings)

hashirama sealed kurama in mito so hashirama beat him as hashirama was the on who sealed him away.

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itachi said if i could get ems i could surpass him or something.

but he never intended on getting ems.

the statue cant use any techs

1. chakra roar
2. phantom sealing dragon
3. chakra blast

the 2nd mizukage was weakened after using joki boy and muu was at half strength after splitting. edos are exact replicas of their alive versions with regeneration(excluding modified edos).

they still wont die from the strain of techniques. for example itachi basically spammed susano and kimmimaro wasnt hindered. they cant be exact replicas otherwise how is itachi able to move if he still has his disease?

excluding modified edos

exactly and madaras a modified edo who cant get tired

so how is that fight any indication of hashiramas strength?

point me to where hashirama fights elsewhere in the manga

shadow clones are a ninjutsu and preta path failed to absorb it

they are physical solid beings so nagato can absorb the chakra within them, not the clones themselves. in the scans you posted, it all happened too quickly for the weaker zombie preta path to grab naruto and absorb him. later on he did grab him and did absorb him which is why he turned to stone.