Hiruzen Strength Completely Analysed

[Minator93]

Spoiler

I've been wanting to make this thread for a while , But I have some time on my hands, so i thought why not t.t
In this thread I'll completely analyse ever aspect of hiruzen sarutobi, all his feats, hype, and i'll throw in a few guesses as well

Ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu

- Without a doubt, Hiruzen Sarutobi was if not is one of the most skilled ninjas when it comes to all the forms of ninja combat, Not saying that there aren't others who have surpassed him individually, But i don't believe anyone has surpassed his expert allroundedness...

We are first introduced to Sarutobi Hiruzen as Hokage of the leaf village.. His skill in nijutsu rivaling that of Hatake kakashi , in that he was capable of using over 1000 different types of jutsu

Spoiler

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Ofc this is no small feat, Having an arsenal of that amount of jutsu would take a very long time for most, but it would ensure that you have a counter for almost every attack possible in a battle..

Further information on Hiruzen, by orochimaru, indicates that he was once given the title Professor

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Hiruzen, at one point in the past was able to use EVERY existing Konoha jutsu ,

Do note orochimaru's wording, he not only spoke in past tense , but used the word existing.. meaning operating at a current time... This means hiruzen was not able to use every konoha jutsu that EVER existed.. He is not sayinig that... Hiruzen was able to use every jutsu, of the people currently alive in Konoha.. which would probably include ninjas like Sakume hatake ... .

If you've read this far you're probably thinking that using every existing konoha jutsu would require 5 elements? , Well yes, I'm here to explain to you that Hiruzen had 4-5 elements, He may not have had wind since it's rare in Konoha, but it's likely at least one person had it ...

I already know you're going to say

"It's impossible to have 5 elements , without rinnegan that is"

WRONG , infact Anyone can learn all the elements, it would just take a ridculous amount of time for most.. But hiruzen is no normal ninja...He is a genius with skills in ninjutsu beyond anyone ever seen in the manga bar nagato.... Members of his clan also seem to have some sort of talent in learning jutsu extremely fast, as seen with konohamaru ....

But back to the chakra,

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In this first databook page, you see kishi says " While it depends on the person, Most individuals can tap into one chakra nature easily. At the jonin level, most can use two or more"

This corelates with what Kakashi said.. NOWHERE has kakashi said that 1 or 2 was your limit... he simply said that you are born with an AFFINITY... this is the element that best suits you... You learn it easier than all the rest... Jonins, usually have their affinity + one other element..

Further proof that anyone can learn 5 elements is

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Kishi's clear and exact words- " Mastery of all natures can take years of training"

^ , I do hope this will end the debate on whether a person can get 5 elements.. The thing different about Nagato was that he was capable of doing it at a VERY young age, IMPOSSIBLE for most....

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Hiruzen was stated in the manga to be incredibly skilled in genjutsu, knowing over 1000 of them ALONE .... and mastering each one... along wiith the 5 he was giving in databooks, it shows his expertise in this skill..

Hiruzen's taijutsu in his old form was still extremely good... despite it being significantly weaker than his prime performance according to enma... He was still armed with tricks that even orochimaru missed and was surprised at..

Spoiler

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Prime
Hiruzen's prime state, has been given unrivaled hype throughout this manga... there is no other character but the so6p that was given any better hype than him...

We have his statement from iruka

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Stating that he was considered the strongest hokage of all.. Note this is not a direct statement, nor is it Iruka's OPINION..... iruka is simply stating, that a majority of people , consider Hiruzen as the strongest of the former hokage....

Next up we have Kabuto's statement ..

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Kabuto, if you haven't realized, Is a very informative person... He has been a spy all his life and thus has a load of knowledge from past and present events... He has spied in every village since a child , and knows things others don't know

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So when kabuto says that a majority of people consider hiruzen to have been the strongest kage, once again it isn't his opinion.. it's the opinion of many villages, data that he's collected over years ,the opinion of masses.. that hiruzen was without a doubt stronger....

But what makes hiruzen this strong? what made him so powerful that people would call him a god of shinobi?
We have a man that has mastered ninjutsu, all forms... Trained by both the former hokages, And who's databook ranking in his old age, scored almost all 5's...

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Apart from the things that would have obviously declined with age...

Here we have hiruzen's statement that unlike before , he found enma heavy, showing a significant decrease in strength..

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enma's statement that, his overall performance in taijutsu was lacking...

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and finally statements by anbu members that hiruzen's chakra has significantly decreased since his prime, which affects his stanima greatly

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People bring up that fight oro as an attempt to bellitle his power, and call his hype lies... but they fail to realize that he was just in a horrible condition..

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One where his stanima is ridiculously low, he can't use any of his powerful jutsu, or ANY chakra taxing jutsu.. nothing...

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A man who could not perform in battle..
jutsu like moukouton, which orochimaru and enma hinted he could have dodged, he wasn't able to...

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as enma said.. the battle was NOTHING like him atall..

But even then, even though hiruzen was so incredibly weak compared to his prime, Kishi still considered old hiruzen equal to oro..

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I'm not even nearly done with this thread i just looked at it though, and its too long , haven't even gotten to enma, which is a thread by himself...

+ rep:scorps:

 

[Owarij]

+ rep:scorps:

thx

and thx to all who read it : )

trying to rep back everyone

 

[ekkla]

amazing job ... + rep ... and i agree .... to add it was said that nature training would take a normal shonobi around 20 years ... naruto bcuz of his shadow clones learned wind nature super faster

 

[Owarij]

amazing job ... + rep ... and i agree .... to add it was said that nature training would take a normal shonobi around 20 years ... naruto bcuz of his shadow clones learned wind nature super faster

Yup, and he isn't a normal shinobi
he was a genius with a knack for learning jutsu, and had tons of chakra

 

[Viewtiful]

This a very well put together thread and thoroughly explained why Hiruzen is indeed the strongest according to the author himself.

 

[Owarij]

This a very well put together thread and thoroughly explained why Hiruzen is indeed the strongest according to the author himself.

Thank you

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

it being significantly weaker than his prime performance according to enma...

yet you showed no manga scan for this as it doesnt exist.

Stating that he was considered the strongest hokage of all

no he wasnt. "Strongest of all" would mean strongest shinobi of his time. not strongest ever of all hokage

enma's statement that, his overall performance in taijutsu was lacking

he siad nothing of the sort! he said this aint like you. as in hiruzen was holding back and having trouble breathing due to fighting his student

Kishi still considered old hiruzen equal to oro..

oro had two hokages and was basically toying the whole time.

the battle was NOTHING like him atall..

him holding back is nothing like him. hes fighting his students and teachers for gods sake

One where his stanima is ridiculously low,

it was always low next to true monsters like naruto

finally statements by anbu members that hiruzen's chakra has significantly decreased since his prime,

he said declined, never said by what amount. idiot

he found enma heavy, showing a significant decrease in strength..

lol and yet onoki holds a turtle island no problem. stop finding excuses

So when kabuto says that a majority of people consider hiruzen to have been the strongest kage, once again it isn't his opinion.. it's the opinion of many villages, data that he's collected over years ,the opinion of masses.. that hiruzen was without a doubt stronger....

but we see no evidence he can actually take on 3rd raikage, onoki etc. not everyone was clued into those peoples true powers.

 

[Viewtiful]

Yes, it is said multiple times that old Hiruzen is nothing compared to what he once was, so quit saying it isn't said:

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Now can we please stop with the 'manga didn't say that', because it did multiple times, and Kishimoto has done the same in regards to Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage.

 

[BloodSeed]

hiruzens hype was trolled when itachi at 13 beat oro :rofl:
and then we seen itachi to be a lower tier than madara hashirama. do nothing against tobi, stated that he cant beat jiraiya with kisame. wtf :rofl:

 

[minatoisagod]

great analysis bro i always had great rating for sarutobi especially since he took on both the 1st and 2nd and was old as shit. No one can take that feat from him

 

[Owarij]

yet you showed no manga scan for this as it doesnt exist.

no he wasnt. "Strongest of all" would mean strongest shinobi of his time. not strongest ever of all hokage

he siad nothing of the sort! he said this aint like you. as in hiruzen was holding back and having trouble breathing due to fighting his student

oro had two hokages and was basically toying the whole time.

him holding back is nothing like him. hes fighting his students and teachers for gods sake

it was always low next to true monsters like naruto
he said declined, never said by what amount. idiot

lol and yet onoki holds a turtle island no problem. stop finding excuses

but we see no evidence he can actually take on 3rd raikage, onoki etc. not everyone was clued into those peoples true powers.

Oonoki has a earth jutsu that SIGNIFICANTLY lightens the weight of things... thus he could stop the meteor , lift up isnlands etc.. and even with the reduced weight, he still was having serious back problems

no he wasnt. "Strongest of all" would mean strongest shinobi of his time. not strongest ever of all hokage

Iruka was talking about the hokages idiot, that same statement is in the dataobok referring to the hokages


And you must be blind if you haven't sen the manga scans throughout that fight saying hiruzen has become much weaker than his prime..
kishi in databooks and oro even say if he was 10 years younger, he would have been able to beat him

enma's statement that, his overall performance in taijutsu was lacking
he siad nothing of the sort! he said this aint like you. as in hiruzen was holding back and having trouble breathing due to fighting his student

NOWHERE did it say, hiruzen was holding back..although he may have, that wasn't stated in the manga at all.. what was stressed by the anbu ninja, enma, and orochimaru, was that he was very old and was performing horrible

 

[MrLukyso]

Nice thread, but I highly disagree. He's not the strongest hokage.

1. It was said in part 1 of Naruto when the strongest technique was Rasengan.
2. More series - power grows up in Naruto just like in DBZ, Kishi didn't know that he will create Hashi or Madara or Tobi so powerfull.
3. He has no Kekke Genkai which is big disadvantage.
4. Yes maybe he was equal to Orochimaru, but Itachi beat orochimaru when he was 13 YEARS.
5. At any point, those who say he owned Tobirama and Hashi in Edo alone, Those two werent even at 30% of their power.
6. Hiruzen has no counter for S/T, he lacks speed.
7. "It isn't in the jutsu number you posses, but the guts to never give up", to be the strongest shinobie that's not the number of jutsus you can do Said by Jirayia, and I agree with him, Madara showed 3 techniques and Kages are dieing in their feets.
8. He has no counter for Sharingan or Rinnegan.
9. No counter for technique like Mokuton or TBB or WRS or any of those really powerfull techniques.
10. Plenty of shinobies where said to be "fairy tails";"most powerfull shinobies" and that shit..

Part 1 < Part 2 of Naruto. Get a life I respect for creating this thread but he's not top 1 Hokage, I bet even Tobirama would own him... He wasn't able to protect his Teacher who fought against army when he was at 18~, he wasn't able to kill Orochimaru in 69~, Itachi did it easily at 13... He lacks plenty of things.

 

[Owarij]

Nice thread, but I highly disagree. He's not the strongest hokage.

1. It was said in part 1 of Naruto when the strongest technique was Rasengan.
2. More series - power grows up in Naruto just like in DBZ, Kishi didn't know that he will create Hashi or Madara or Tobi so powerfull.
3. He has no Kekke Genkai which is big disadvantage.
4. Yes maybe he was equal to Orochimaru, but Itachi beat orochimaru when he was 13 YEARS.
5. At any point, those who say he owned Tobirama and Hashi in Edo alone, Those two werent even at 30% of their power.
6. Hiruzen has no counter for S/T, he lacks speed.
7. "It isn't in the jutsu number you posses, but the guts to never give up", to be the strongest shinobie that's not the number of jutsus you can do Said by Jirayia, and I agree with him, Madara showed 3 techniques and Kages are dieing in their feets.
8. He has no counter for Sharingan or Rinnegan.
9. No counter for technique like Mokuton or TBB or WRS or any of those really powerfull techniques.
10. Plenty of shinobies where said to be "fairy tails";"most powerfull shinobies" and that shit..

Part 1 < Part 2 of Naruto. Get a life I respect for creating this thread but he's not top 1 Hokage, I bet even Tobirama would own him... He wasn't able to protect his Teacher who fought against army when he was at 18~, he wasn't able to kill Orochimaru in 69~, Itachi did it easily at 13... He lacks plenty of things.

1) The strongest technique in part 1 was never rasengan..

2)Bullshit, Kishi had already wrote about tobirama and hashirama.. he put them in flashbacks with hiruzen, he made kakashi talk about the fight between madara and hashirama at the valley of the end

3) right? because you need a kkg to be strong?

4) I said OLD, hiruzen was equal to hiruzen.. Kishi made it explicitly clear, that if hiruzen was 10 years younger he'd defeat him

5) Hahsirama and tobirama WERE NEVER at 30% of their power, stop making up statistics

6) lMAO , 1) he would have a 5 in speed in prime state, 2) you think you need speed to counter ftg? don't kid me.. Bee predicted where minato was going to go and used it against him, and bee is no genius..
any ninja can use a suiton that would pick up all of minato's kunai on the ground and carry them elsewhere... Ftg can be defeated in MANY ways... stop overrating it

7) what? who do you think gave jiraya that gut thing to never give up? did you watch the fight?

8) Urm, and hashirama had a counter for sharingan etc? it's called not looking at their eyes.. ask kakashi

9) enma was destroying moukouton easily in staff mode, only like 3 ninjas have counters for tbb

10) yea.. kabuto said there were a few people with "Fairy trail strength" hashirama being included ..what's your point? , hiruzen was said in manga and databooks to be the strongest of the hokages, and by kabuto in the manga to be the strongest kage...


Part 1 < Part 2 of Naruto. Get a life I respect for creating this thread but he's not top 1 Hokage, I bet even Tobirama would own him... He wasn't able to protect his Teacher who fought against army when he was at 18~, he wasn't able to kill Orochimaru in 69~, Itachi did it easily at 13... He lacks plenty of things.

God you're retarded, 1) Part 1 naruto doesn;t > part 2

though the power levels may have increased, it means nothing..

Itachi defeated oro at 11, A long time ago.. Oro improved since then, got edo tensei..

Oro + hashirama + tobirama vs 70 year old itachi is a totally different fight is it not? stop talking bullshit

you aren't even arguing with me, the most ridiculous part of all your idiotic statements, is that you're arguing with kishi's story, and kishi's words

 

[NarutoKage2]

Nice thread, but I highly disagree. He's not the strongest hokage.

1. It was said in part 1 of Naruto when the strongest technique was Rasengan.
2. More series - power grows up in Naruto just like in DBZ, Kishi didn't know that he will create Hashi or Madara or Tobi so powerfull.
3. He has no Kekke Genkai which is big disadvantage.
4. Yes maybe he was equal to Orochimaru, but Itachi beat orochimaru when he was 13 YEARS.
5. At any point, those who say he owned Tobirama and Hashi in Edo alone, Those two werent even at 30% of their power.
6. Hiruzen has no counter for S/T, he lacks speed.
7. "It isn't in the jutsu number you posses, but the guts to never give up", to be the strongest shinobie that's not the number of jutsus you can do Said by Jirayia, and I agree with him, Madara showed 3 techniques and Kages are dieing in their feets.
8. He has no counter for Sharingan or Rinnegan.
9. No counter for technique like Mokuton or TBB or WRS or any of those really powerfull techniques.
10. Plenty of shinobies where said to be "fairy tails";"most powerfull shinobies" and that shit..

Part 1 < Part 2 of Naruto. Get a life I respect for creating this thread but he's not top 1 Hokage, I bet even Tobirama would own him... He wasn't able to protect his Teacher who fought against army when he was at 18~, he wasn't able to kill Orochimaru in 69~, Itachi did it easily at 13... He lacks plenty of things.

This. Rep +.

@OP: You're thread has too many flaws to be true. For starters, all those statements claiming Hiruzen to be the strongest ever etc were simply the opinion/view of characters. A character's view can never be taken as a fact, e.g Itachi believed Tobi to be Madara, that was his view yet it was false. Konan thought that the Rinnegan was the Hidden rain's treasure, this was proven false. Zetsu stated in the manga that once Ametarasu hits something, it does'nt stop until the target is completely eradicated, again this statement was proven false when Tobi survived a direct hit from Ametarasu.

All of these characters had their views, and all of them were proven in the manga to be untrue. So stating that because he was 'said to be..' strongest or what not that he really is, is utter nonsense. Because as i have shown you, the people who said it, are themselves characters of the show whose knowledge is limited and can be false.

What's likely is that they(the characters) meant that he mastered quite a number of non kekkei genkai (another problem with the Hiruzen hype, how could he possibly have 'mastered every jutsu of the leaf' when half those jutsus are bloodline limits?) jutsus and all those statements were meant to acknowledge this.

Lastly, story wise Hiruzen no longer has much of a role. He died, and was hardly ever recalled by anyone as being strong. Only those who lived in his era felt he was truly strong or remembered him, e.g Danzo in his flashback. Thus, it cannot be said he was the strongest of all time, although there could be an argument made that he was the strongest of his time. Although, for the life of me i can't figure out what tech he could possibly use to beat the 3rd Raikage, but oh well.

 

[Viewtiful]

This. Rep +.

@OP: You're thread has too many flaws to be true. For starters, all those statements claiming Hiruzen to be the strongest ever etc were simply the opinion/view of characters. A character's view can never be taken as a fact, e.g Itachi believed Tobi to be Madara, that was his view yet it was false. Konan thought that the Rinnegan was the Hidden rain's treasure, this was proven false. Zetsu stated in the manga that once Ametarasu hits something, it does'nt stop until the target is completely eradicated, again this statement was proven false when Tobi survived a direct hit from Ametarasu.
All of these characters had their views, and all of them were proven in the manga to be untrue. So stating that because he was 'said to be..' strongest or what not that he really is, is utter nonsense. Because as i have shown you, the people who said it, are themselves characters of the show whose knowledge is limited and can be false.

What's likely is that they(the characters) meant that he mastered quite a number of non kekkei genkai (another problem with the Hiruzen hype, how could he possibly have 'mastered every jutsu of the leaf' when have those jutsus are bloodline limits?) jutsus and all those statements were meant to acknowledge this.

Lastly, story wise Hiruzen no longer has much of a role. He died, and was hardly ever recalled by anyone as being strong. Only those who lived in his era felt he was truly strong or remembered him, e.g Danzo in his flashback. Thus, it cannot be said he was the strongest of all time, although there could be an argument made that he was the strongest of his time. Although, for the life of me i can't figure out what tech he could possibly use to beat the 3rd Raikage, but oh well.

Actually, they weren't Those statements were also said by the author himself in all 3 databooks:


Page 117: "He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history." (「„プロフェッサー”と呼ばれたほどの天才忍者であり、歴代最強の火影として皆の尊敬を集め続ける。」, "'Purofessā' to yobareta hodo no tensai ninja de ari, rekidai saikyō no Hokage toshite mina no sonkei o atsume tsuzukeru")

Page 119: "'Strongest in history', 'genius', et cetera, the words used to describe the Third Hokage are filled with respect." (「„歴代最強”„天才”など、三代目火影を形容する言葉は賞賛に満ちている。」, "'Rekidai saikyō' 'tensai' nado, Sandaime Hokage o keiyōsuru kotoba wa shōsan ni michite iru.")

Page 265: "The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi'." (「三代目は歴代火影の中でも最強と言われ、„忍の神”と謳われたことも。」, "Sandaime wa rekidai Hokage no naka demo saikyō to iware, 'Shinobi no Kami' to utawareta koto mo")


An absolute fact it is, that Hiruzen > Hashirama, and just about everyone else. :scorps:

 

[NarutoKage2]

Actually, they weren't Those statements were also said by the author himself in all 3 databooks:


Page 117: "He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history." (「„プロフェッサー”と呼ばれたほどの天才忍者であり、歴代最強の火影として皆の尊敬を集め続ける。」, "'Purofessā' to yobareta hodo no tensai ninja de ari, rekidai saikyō no Hokage toshite mina no sonkei o atsume tsuzukeru")

Page 119: "'Strongest in history', 'genius', et cetera, the words used to describe the Third Hokage are filled with respect." (「„歴代最強”„天才”など、三代目火影を形容する言葉は賞賛に満ちている。」, "'Rekidai saikyō' 'tensai' nado, Sandaime Hokage o keiyōsuru kotoba wa shōsan ni michite iru.")

Page 265: "The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi'." (「三代目は歴代火影の中でも最強と言われ、„忍の神”と謳われたことも。」, "Sandaime wa rekidai Hokage no naka demo saikyō to iware, 'Shinobi no Kami' to utawareta koto mo")


An absolute fact it is, that Hiruzen > Hashirama, and just about everyone else. :scorps:

Ahahahahaahhaaahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahah

Do you have trouble reading?
Here, let me emphasize, i'll user your own quotes to disprove you:

Quote 1:
He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history."


Called by whom? The gods? Not Kishi, basic comprehension, dude, he was 'called' the strongest by other characters.


Quote 2:
"'Strongest in history', 'genius', et cetera, the words used to describe the Third Hokage are filled with respect.


Words used by whom? Again its by other people who were around him, not kishi. Try to understand context.



Quote 3:
The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi

Had this statement been ' The 3rd is the strongest...' it would have been by Kishi. But its said that he was called the strongest, again obviously by other characters , lol.



Understand that the databook is, as the name implies, data from the manga. Nowhere in any of those 3 has kishi, the creator, himself asserted Hiruzen to be the strongest hokage. He merely noted what others have said.

For example, if i say:
' Muhommad Ali was said to be the greatest boxer in history',

that does'nt mean i believe this statement as well. It just means that is what others have said.

 

[BloodSeed]

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can you explain this? dan kato was around during HIRUZENS PRIME however he STATES THIS BLASPHEMY that ONLY the deceased FIRST HOKAGE can defeat madara. :rofl: well that voids hiruzens hype. but that doesnt include minato since minato was not around when DAN KATO DIED! :rofl:

 

[Owarij]

:| he posts something i've explained numerous times, in numerous threads

why are you posting in my thread? i don't reply to you

 

[BloodSeed]

defend your thread for another sh!t storm!

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[Viewtiful]

Ahahahahaahhaaahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahah

Do you have trouble reading?
Here, let me emphasize, i'll user your own quotes to disprove you:

I can read just fine, thank you.

Quote 1:
He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history."

Called by whom? The gods? Not Kishi, basic comprehension, dude, he was 'called' the strongest by other characters.

Yes, and do you think Kishimoto would write that in his bias-free DBs if that was untrue?

Quote 2:
"'Strongest in history', 'genius', et cetera, the words used to describe the Third Hokage are filled with respect.


Words used by whom? Again its by other people who were around him, not kishi. Try to understand context.

Are you an idiot? It just said the words/phrases used. And yet again, if you're going to doubt this then Hashirama was not stronger than everyone in the world currently, seeing as it was said by Kabuto. Putting something in a databook cements it as FACT, otherwise it would be stupidity (great stupidity) on your part to say he consistently put this in EVERY databook for 12+ years if it wasn't.

Quote 3:
The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi

Had this statement been ' The 3rd is the strongest...' it would have been by Kishi. But its said that he was called the strongest, again obviously by other characters , lol.

Actually, it says he's called the strongest, EVER, by the past Hokage. Perhaps YOU should up your reading comprehension.

Understand that the databook is, as the name implies, data from the manga. Nowhere in any of those 3 has kishi, the creator, himself asserted Hiruzen to be the strongest hokage. He merely noted what others have said.

For example, if i say:
' Muhommad Ali was said to be the greatest boxer in history',

that does'nt mean i believe this statement as well. It just means that is what others have said.

For the last time. It would be massively stupid on your part to imply that Kishimoto stated Repeatedly, In EVERY databook, for over twelve years that Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage without a doubt if it weren't true. Nowhere in any of his writings is doubt cast upon this. Not once.