JimmyTwoTails
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I agree with this. Maybe Kubuto thoughts no Muu's
I dont think Any 1 older than Minato could use Rasengan
[Discussion] Tobirama could use the rasengan...?
- Thread starter NarutoKage2
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I dont think Any 1 older than Minato could use Rasengan
NarutoVsGoku
Active member
NarutoKage2
Active member
Noobs, both of you.
Dude did you even bother to read the post i gave Drasty? Just scroll up this last page. There are dozens of instances in the manga where a character's thoughts are not in bubbles. I even linked about 3 of them. That was Muu thinking, your saying that it was kishi telling the story does'nt even make any sense. You read Naruto, right? When you saw that tech on that page, did you not recognize it as the rasengan? I mean c'mon kishi is'nt that dumb.
I agree with Dratasy on this. Rasengan has been called Minato's invention all through the manga too many times and by various characters for too long. It's not likely that Kishi is going to change his stance now and somehow Tobirama would be the inventor. That would be plain stupid of Kishi to pull something like this at this junction.
Why wouldn't Mu say Rasengan in the first place? At the most it's like Mu's own reaction when thinking "distorted rotation" and next second he learns what it was because it's Kabuto who's the edo controller and the first person to taste Naruto's rasengan, supplying the info. So Mu just might be realizing what it is called but that's it.
Why wouldn't Mu say Rasengan in the first place? At the most it's like Mu's own reaction when thinking "distorted rotation" and next second he learns what it was because it's Kabuto who's the edo controller and the first person to taste Naruto's rasengan, supplying the info. So Mu just might be realizing what it is called but that's it.
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Neither of these guys are noobs, even if they are wrong regarding the thought bubbles. Honestly, if anyone just goes and rereads the manga you'll find countless instances of characters thoughts in regular font or emboldened without a thought bubble. I did in my search for some links that I wanted to use in this post. It's actually quite surprising and something taken for granted; thus, I'm not surprised that people are arguing that it doesn't happen. Really, it's not something we really pay attention to. Right or wrong, at least this thread has brought our attention to that aspect of Kishi's writing.
To me this simply doesn't pass the "common sense" sniff test, which is somewhat subjective and somewhat objective. First, let's strengthen NarutoKage2's argument a little shall we by putting that one page he cited in his OP in context of the few preceding pages of the manga issue, as he only linked page 4.
On the first page, we have Naruto flying at Muu with this jutsu (he misses on p.1 and lands it on p.4), named with Kishi's editor notes (translates: "Planetary Rasengan" I believe)
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so one could easily argue that editorial notes on page 4 are not necessary to clarify what the jutsu used is. Further, this argument is strengthened as the jutsu is visibly a Rasengan variant, and Naruto, since he entered war, starting with the White Zetsu's, has been using Rasengan variants in Kyuubi mode. Thus, the reader ought to be able to follow the action with little direction from Kishi. That doesn't mean Kishi didn't provide it though.
Next, for those against Muu having thoughts without thought bubbles, he does so in the bottom-right panel on page 3, the page before NarutoKage2 cites (p.4) with the line, "It Just...!" There's no way to attribute that anyone but Muu, as it refers to his shock at Naruto using his chakra arm to redirect his attack at Muu, something he didn't anticipate.
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Further, on the top of page 4, which NarutoKage2 cites in his OP, it's clear that the jutsu that lands on Muu is the same jutsu named on page 1 (linked above) by Kishi. Thus, why should Kishi feel the need to describe it further below? He's already made it clear that Naruto's attack is the "Planetary Rasengan." Then there are the lines, "This disordered rotation... It's the Rasengan!!!" Well, anyone who reads the manga knows that character's thoughts are frequently not contained in thought bubbles, and Muu just did so on the previous page, setting precedent even within the chapter. However, what strikes against this being a character remark to me is the triple exclamation mark "!!!" How significant that is I don't know without reviewing the manga to see other characters remarks though, and ultimately it doesn't matter as this piece of evidence will become too weak compared to the other evidence in the manga. Thus, whether I'm right or wrong on this point is not of much consequence to me. Again, this doesn't rule out the lines being from Kishi; however, it bolsters NarutoKage2's argument. That was the focus of this part of the post.
Thus, if you put NarutoKage2's argument into better context as I just did, it's actually much more robust. However, I'm personally still not sold because of Jiraiya and Kakashi's (thus Kishi's) statements regarding the Rasengan's inventor. These are probably the two people alive who knew Minato the best. Jiraiya was more than just his sensei, but also considered him a destined child, gave him his first book, was Naruto's godfather, etc. Kakashi was his prime student, handed down his legacy the Rasengan, etc. Further, both of them were knowledgeable about the ninjutsu of the current and past shinobi of the Leaf, granted to what extent/limit I don't know. However, I find it odd that both would attribute the Rasengan to Minato if Minato did not invent this jutsu.
Here Jiraiya attributes it to Minato:
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Here Kakashi attributes it to Minato:
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While Jiraiya's statement could in theory be argued that Minato simply completed a jutsu and his legacy was the current version of the Rasengan. Kakashi's statement removes any ambiguity and makes it clear that it was indeed Minato who invented the jutsu. Thus, both Jiraiya and Kakashi are saying the same thing, namely Minato invented the Rasengan. Both are veritable and knowledgable sources on both Minato and the Rasengan.
Given it took 3 years for Minato to learn/invent this jutsu (see Jiraiya link +/- pages), it seems highly unlikely he was taught or uncovered any part of it given how quickly those who were taught it learned it. Even Konohamaru, who received brief lesson/s from Naruto learned it within the time-skip (2.5 years) as a genin and Minato was a genius of a higher rank that came along once in a generation whereas Konohamaru is not. Naruto with pointers from Jiraiya completed it in a month.
Further, from a story/plot point of view, the character Naruto is about surpassing the previous Hokage, particularly Minato, which is likely why he learned and perfected the Rasengan (i.e. FRS). It has significance if Minato is the one who invented the jutsu, whereas it has virtually none if it was invented by Tobirama. This is a point I don't believe that has been presented yet in this thread. As well, the Rasengan from the story point has a lineage of teacher->student with the one exception of Jiraiya (Minato->Kakashi/Jiraiya->Naruto->Konohamaru->?). Where's the lineage linking Tobirama to Minato without including Hiruzen as being taught the Rasengan and then teaching Minato? That clearly doesn't add up. The Rasengan was clearly a jutsu that was meant to be passed on as it has been written.
The strength and amount of this evidence in favor of Minato inventing the Rasengan is much stronger than arguing over whether or not the line, "This disordered rotation... It's the Rasengan!!!" is from Muu or Kishi. Ultimately, no one can prove it came from Muu. One can speculate about it, and cite instances where there are thoughts not constrained by thought bubbles, but that per se, does not mean that that specific line, "This disordered rotation... It's the Rasengan!!!" is attributable to Muu as opposed to from Kishi.
At this point in the manga, with what's been stated about the Rasengan, there's no way to believe with the highest level of certainty that it was invented by anyone but Minato. I suppose you could believe it was Tobirama with an incredibly low level of certainty, but in such a binary decision, what's the point? It's for these many reasons above (I wouldn't be surprised if I left some out) that the theory that Tobirama inventing the Rasengan fails the "common sense" sniff test to me, even after bolstering the argument.
Peace
NarutoKage2
Active member
Err, how does Muu realize what its called without actually having heard the name from someone before?
Why would'nt Muu say it? How about because rasengan was the name given by the 4th Hokage to that jutsu? Mu was long dead before the 4th was born, that was kind of the whole point.
But w/e this was just a thought, idrk about it enough to go into too much detail/prove it so meh.
NarutoVsGoku
Active member
1. im not a noob you ass
2. i read what you guys wrote and you are right there are some instances where characters are thinking things that arent in bubbles and i even looked at the links ya posted but guess what. the pictures and the written words go hand in hand to show very clearly that the character is thinking. the picture will contain 1 character only, the background will be black, or have flashback images or image of another character in the background because that is the character that is being spoken about, and the character that is the focus of the panel is alone and the words he/she is thinking are not in bubbles because the picture clearly shows that the words belong to him or her
3. both naruto and muu are in the panel of the rasengan. and i already explained that the reason that its kishis words is because he was showing a new form of the rasengan that has never been shown before. thats why the narrator pointed it out.
how old are you? you cant even comprehend a manga. what is more logical? that kishi was noting a new form or rasengan? or that muu who has never in his life witnessed the rasengan recognized it cuz tobirama who also has never witnessed nor even used the rasengan because he was dead when it was created by Minato, knew how to use it.
only a illogical moron would think the latter. which one makes more sense to you?
NarutoKage2
Active member
You are a noob, and also a butthurt from the looks of it.
It also clearly shows that those thoughts did belong to Muu in the link i gave. There is'nt any credible counter argument to this fact, even if you disagree with Tobirama inventing the rasengan. It is clearly shown that Muu was in the background, the words written were his thoughts.
And what kind of stupid argument is that that if a character is thinking something only he has to be in the panel or it has to be a flashback?
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Minato is'nt in the background, that image was'nt a flashback and those are his thoughts, or do you think kishi is saying 'gotta pick a safe place to let that blast detonate'?
And here you can see Minato's thoughts in words even when Tobi is in the pic not Minato:
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So if two characters are in the panel this means the thoughts being written can't be theirs unless its a bubble? Are you that dumb?
To completely kill your argument, here take a close look at this pic:
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Look carefully at the right of that panel at the bottom where Minato's thoughts are written. That's a side shot of Tobi, you can see the outlines of his mask.
So 2 characters are in one pic, and one of the characters(Minato in this case) is thinking something that is'nt in a bubble.
Burnt, bitch.
Thus making your argument that only the character thinking the words being in the background as BS.
In the page i linked it just said rasengan, not Rasenryuugan or Rasenkyuugan which were the new types of rasengan. It would have given the new rasengan's name ifd that were the case, kishi has done this before when Naruto fought the zetsu clones.
Pretty big words, coming from someone who says if there are 2 characters in 1 pic, then one of the characters can't have their thoughts in anything other than a bubble lol.
What's logical is that either Kishi made a mistake on that page, or that Mu had witnessed the rasengan somewhere before and knew its name. These are the only two possibilities. Your attempt to de bunk this falls flat on its face as i pretty much pwned your pathetic made up arguments.
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Are you sure Muu was the one who said this? Minato has created the Rasengan, so there's no way Tobirama could use this technique before. And your assumption has no foundation. Only because Tobirama was known for using space/time techniques it doesn't mean he was also able to use the Rasengan. These are two completely different things.
NarutoKage2
Active member
Dude just read the posts i made in this thread, its 100 % confirmed Muu said this.
Deduce what you want but Muu was the one who said that, and Minato was'nt even born in Muu's time so...
Jeez, and I just asked NarutovsGoku to let this thing rest in the name of peace. So much for that with all of these needless insults, such as this quoted one. Please, tell me the how this serves to prove your point in any way with respect to the thread. I have no idea what's going to happen now. Why do I even try to keep the peace at times... I am disappointed in how things turned out... :sy:
In my post above, even after beefing up your argument, I still found it unsatisfactory. Really debating over whether this line was stated by Muu is ultimately impossible to reach certainty, whereas there is other evidence in the manga that explicitly states Minato invented the Rasengan with certainty along with supporting evidence. Thus, it's fairly trivial to even debate this point of contention regarding Muu/Kishi and this line in the manga. I understand why you must, as it's your only possible piece of evidence in your favor. However, that it's not even certain makes it inferior to evidence with certainty, regardless of the form that evidence takes. That should be acknowledged not dismissed.
Peace
So in this case it was a mistake by Kishimoto. Maybe he didn't even think about the fact that Muu died before Minato was even born. These are unimportant details, but Kishimoto said that Minato was the one who created the Rasengan.Dude just read the posts i made in this thread, its 100 % confirmed Muu said this.
Deduce what you want but Muu was the one who said that, and Minato was'nt even born in Muu's time so...
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edo tensai wilmaso
Active member
naruto did yell out rasengan page one i don't know kishi be trolling.
oh also wait for this part to come out in the anime , manga does not do a good job at expressing thoughts., putting words in black ink does not tell the whole story the action does.
oh and to add... characters do think out loud and it is showed by non bubbled words , not all the time, like i said check the first page of where the person who made this link is referring to... naruto thinks out loud and say planetary rasengan so if he said it muu obviously knows what it is when he tries to do it a second time to him .... like i said lets wait till the anime comes out to see their actions and if they do think outloud or if they are thinking it inside their heads ...and im speaking particularly on that chapter not any other one.
oh also wait for this part to come out in the anime , manga does not do a good job at expressing thoughts., putting words in black ink does not tell the whole story the action does.
oh and to add... characters do think out loud and it is showed by non bubbled words , not all the time, like i said check the first page of where the person who made this link is referring to... naruto thinks out loud and say planetary rasengan so if he said it muu obviously knows what it is when he tries to do it a second time to him .... like i said lets wait till the anime comes out to see their actions and if they do think outloud or if they are thinking it inside their heads ...and im speaking particularly on that chapter not any other one.
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