Why the 2nd>4th Hokage!

[stRunF]

yondaime killed fodder jounin like the one that fought kid kakashi and obito..

Tobirama faced 20 world known master elite bounty hunter nin ...yea..

they were earth ninjas, no1 is pointed out from the earth country to be a strong shinobi

 

[xxSAGExx]

IF NOTHING ELSE PLZ READ <THE NAIL IN THE COFFIN> SECTION​

EDIT NOTES:
Points that have been edited are in bold. On revision it could go either way on some points, it depends on your personal opinion. I intentionally left out the culmination of all techniques, so that you the read could decide yourself. I stand by my original post that Tobirama> Minato but it is definitely close

So following the latest chapter there has been many people re-evaluating the order in which they rank the Hokage’s of the Leaf. What I have noticed is that many people consider the nidaime hokage Tobirama to be weaker than Minato. In my opinion this is either a severe underrating of Tobirama or possible overrating of Minato. I think that the 2nd is stronger than Minato and I will explain why.

EDITED:<Hand-to-Hand Combat> (+1 Minato)

Spoiler

From what we have seen, Minato does not rely on his taijutsu much, if at all preferring to instead FTG somewhere and then one shot the enemy. Whilst he would have to be reasonably good at taijutsu (since he is a Kage), I think Tobirama has got him on this one.
EDITED ARGUEMENT: Tobirama was proficient in taijutsu, and had reasonable physical prowess, shown in the edo fight against the 3rd. Whether this is enough to take on Minato with his speed, and reflexes we cannot be sure as we have very little info to go on. Therefore I would award this one to Minato, giving him the benefit of the doubt.

(ORIGINAL ARGUEMENT: THE FOLLOWING ONLY APPLIES TO ANIME, AND TO THAT END A FILLER
Tobirama was know to be proficient in Taijutsu, suggesting he could definetly take minato on. Now of course Minato’s base speed AND REFLEXES would be a serious problem Tobirama also has the Sword of the Thunder God to rely on. This sword could generate powerful electrical currents as well as energy rings that could hold and restrict an enemy’s movement. Finally when it was stolen from konoha, the thief stated with the sword in his possession he was know essentially invincible. Whilst I am aware that thief was beaten shortly after his statement clearly speaks volumes to how effective and powerful tobirama was wielding it.

This coupled with his proficiency in taijutsu, leads me to believe that Tobirama would be more than a match at hand to hand combat as Minato’s movement can be restricted with the sword, leaving an opening for Tobirama, and therefore forcing Minato to use FTG.

EDITED:<Space-time Jutsu> (+1 Each)

Spoiler

Whilst we don’t know much about Tobirama’s Space Time jutsu’s we can draw some conclusions from what Minato said.

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Going by the order Minato mentioned them I am inclined to think that Minato’s was slightly better. Also the fact that Minato has a reputation for his space time suggests that he is better at the technique. Nontheless the fact that he mentions Tobirmama’s space time jutsu is evidence that his and Minato’s techniques are comparable. Now even if Minato’s is better we know that this isn’t the be all and end all since Minato beat Tobi, who had a superior Space Time Technique. Therefore based on the info we have I would say they are comparable, but we are info deficient. Therefore it is only fair to call this one a tie. Although I can definitely see reasons to give it to Minato

EDITED:<Genjutsu> (NO POINTS)

Spoiler

CORRECTION-->THE FOLLOWING ONLY COUNTS FOR ANIME. HASHIRAMA WAS THE ONLY ONE TO DO THIS TECHNIQUE IN THE MANGA, WHILST IT WAS PERFORMED BY TOBIRAMA IN THE ANIME
From what we have seen so far Minato does not have any genjutsu. Tobirama on the other hand has shown an A – rank genjutsu. His bringer of darkness technique exerts an hallucinatory effect upon the eyesight, effectively blinding the opponent. No matter how skilled an opponent may be, they are forced to wait helpless in this world of darkness, as this technique allows the user to attack unseen. This is one serious genjutsu, hence why I give the point to Tobirama.

<Sensor abilities> (+1 Each)

Spoiler

Both have shown the same technique, in which they place there finger on the ground and identify enemy ninja. Therefore both can be considered excellent sensor ninja, and thus they tie on this one.

<Fuinjutsu> (+1 Minato)

Spoiler

As far as we know Tobirama doesn’t use sealing techniques, whilst Minato is a master of them. So this one is pretty self explanatory, Minato takes this.

<Ninjutsu> (+1 Tobirama)

Spoiler

Firstly Tobirama was the best water jutsu user that has ever lived. He is able to use high level water element jutsu’s with one hand seal, such as water dragon missile (which usually requires 44).

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Furthermore he can use these high level techniques without an external source of water. Therefore such high level techniques can be performed very quickly. Now Minato’s advantage is that he uses FTG, but the 2nd’s Water encampment Wall is a great counter to this technique. No marked kunai near the opponent takes away Minato’s major advantage.
Minato on the other hand has only shown rasengan. I don’t think it takes a genius to figure out that Tobirama’s use of water techniques is greater than Minato learning the rasengan.

<Summons> (+1 Tobirama)

Spoiler

Minato has shown that he has the contract for toads, even able to summon the toad boss gamabunta. Now don’t get me wrong this is pretty awesome, since not everyone can summon the contract boss, but an animal summon doesn’t compare to Edo tensei.

Now many people suggest that he didn’t master it but her was obviously proficient enough in the technique for multiple kage to instantly recognise the technique. Meaning he used it on the battlefield and was proficient at it. Furthermore when they were summoned none of the kage commented/ or were surprised by the scale of the technique suggesting that 4 edo summons at once was not out of the question for Tobirama. Even without 4 summons, summoning one or two would put tobirama at a major advantage. Who wouldn’t want an unkillable bodyguard watching your back or occupying your oponnents summon.

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Therefore at the moment I have suggested a way for Tobirama to take away or counter FTG, can match him in hand to hand combat and can gain an advantage through his Impure world resurrection, although I see Minato’s seals as a potential problem.

EDITED:<HYPE> + 1 TOBIRAMA

Spoiler

Finally based on the latest chapter we conclude that either Hashirama is the strongest or a close second to Prime Sarutobi. Regardless everyone is aware of the fact that Hashirama is a BEAST. He singlehandedly beat EMS Madara + Kurama, tamed many tailed beasts and uses possibly the strongest KG wood release. Now its not hard to see in the Narutoverse these are massive feats. But most of all he was compared to the sage of six paths himself. Now who was said to be Hashirama’s equal, his brother Tobirama

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I honestly don't think Minatos hype can stand against this statement

And that is why I say that Tobirama (5 points) is stronger than Minato (4 points), comments and opinions? Please don’t flame, and fanboys are welcome to discuss as long as you can actually back your statements up. I want a good discussion please. For anyone that is going to say he got taken out by 20 fodder ninja read the next section.

<Misconception about Tobirama’s death>

Spoiler

Many believe that Tobirama was killed by fodder ninja, this is entirely untrue.

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From this page it is obvious that these were not fodder ninja, they were 20 elite bounty hunters form the Kinkaku force. These ninja were deemed to powerful to take on 7 vs 20. Knowing that at least some of the younger members on his team would die he volunteered to solo them whilst the others escaped. Did he hold his ground? Definitely, all of the members from the escaping team made it out alive didn’t they? To stand your ground 1 vs 20 against elite ninja does not make him weak, in fact it seems quite the opposite. Finally but probably the most important bit, he was a decoy he didn't want to escape, otherwise the bounty hunters would go an take out Hiruzen and the others

Sorry but I disagree with some of your points, with that genjutsu to start with. Hiruzen was able to defend against all of the attacks while he was in the genjutsu and even caught them and used death repear seal (Minato taught him sometime before he died). It's like any genjutsu and can be broken like every other one, Hiruzen was being attacked by both edos and had to watch out for Orochimaru. A stated Minato was faster than him and implied was the fast ninja in the world, Minato hypes are higher than Tobiram in certain ways. Those anbus didn't talk like they knew Either Hashirama or Tobirama, just about them and what they heard. Jiraiya and Tsunade actually knew Minato and know what kind of ninja he was. Even A was close to Minato thru rivalry. Minato was said to never make a wasted move, fastest ninja, a genius that comes once in a life time. He was feared by many ninjas and villages, "flee on sight" orders were given in the 3rd shinobi war if anyone saw him, it was said by Rick ninjas and Oonoki who fought Madara wouldn't give such orders willy nilly. Minato has the greatest analyzing skills we've seen, able to know an attack's Strenghts and weakness by seeing it once (kakashi's chidori, Tobi's S/T jutsu, created the rasengan from seeing the tailed beast bomb). Minato wiped out platoons of ninjas in mere seconds in the 3rd war ( mixed of chunins and jounins, it's a war so they're not going to have platoons of only genins and chunins. Plus Minato did this years before being made Hokage and would have gotten a bit stronger). Also Don't you think if Minato wasn't even born but still this once in a life time genius knew the limits of Tobirama's S/T then it's pretty much given Minato had viable knowledge of what Tobirama could do. Edo's are not that scary to someone who can get close to his enemies, put his FTG mark on them then teleport to them whenever he wants plus seal them in a flash. Or did you forget Minato was taught sealing jutsus by Kushina who is an Uzumaki. Why were the Uzumaki clan attacked and almost completely extincted? Oh yeah because they were feared because of their sealing jutsus. Minato is that powerful and we still don't know the full extents of his power, element chakra(s)? sage mode? Ninjutsus? Genjutsus ( besides one of the strongest genjutsu in naruto, frog song)? All I know about Tobirama are what you provide above but we see Minato use 2 of Tobirama's jutsus (sensory ability knowledge on Tobirama S/T). I made a theory that Minato being related to Tobirama for the fact that Minato had that much info on Tobirama. Yes it's possible Jiraiya got this knowledge from Hiruzen but why would Jiraiya learn the rasengan and not S/T if he did? I heard we will learn more about Minato's clan/family so maybe.

 

[zabuzamistboy]

I would have to agree some what, but the only thing I have
to add is you can't really count minato out too soon. He was
able to mix kage bushin with a shuriken and kunai, I find that
remarkable, because he's using what he is given to the fullest
extent.

 

[Catalyst]

agreed

 

[Sage of Infinity Paths]

It depends on God

 

[UzumakiNaruto20]

If Tobirama fights Minato with Taijutsu then he runs the risk of getting tagged with FTG so I don't think it would be in his best interest.

 

[Koibito]

I really dont know man, as of right now 2nd=4th

 

[Gatsuuga]

This thread has doubled since I last checked it so I can't reply to everyone. But I will say this people are using double standards to back up minato. How can you discredit Tobirama's use of Edo Tensei and then say Minato wouldn't have a problem anyway since he has sealing jutsu. If where ganna go by manga showings than no, Minato doesn't have a wealth of seals, only FTG, 8-trigam seal (takes some serious prep) and reaper death seal (kills him). So to say that some of Tobirama's techniques aren't credible because we haven't seen them, and then turn around and say Minato has lots of different seals is wrong. He has 3 sealing techniques that can weight in on this discussion, 2 of which I don't think will help him in this fight (unless he uses reaper as a last resort). Take that into consideration please before replying.

 

[UzumakiNaruto20]

This thread has doubled since I last checked it so I can't reply to everyone. But I will say this people are using double standards to back up minato. How can you discredit Tobirama's use of Edo Tensei and then say Minato wouldn't have a problem anyway since he has sealing jutsu. If where ganna go by manga showings than no, Minato doesn't have a wealth of seals, only FTG, 8-trigam seal (takes some serious prep) and reaper death seal (kills him). So to say that some of Tobirama's techniques aren't credible because we haven't seen them, and then turn around and say Minato has lots of different seals is wrong. He has 3 sealing techniques that can weight in on this discussion, 2 of which I don't think will help him in this fight (unless he uses reaper as a last resort). Take that into consideration please before replying.

Well we know Tobirama won't use edo because he labeled it forbidden jutsu and didn't finish it. I mean do you really think he would sacrifice people to use as an edo?

It really all comes down to FTG. Basically if Tobirama is tagged with it he's finished. And based on what we've seen from Minato it is very likely that Tobirama may get tagged. As to water techs they are not likely to harm Minato if FTG kunai is spammed all over the battlefield.

Tobiramas arsenal is also a factor. He would need a jutsu that could keep Minato away from him. He would also need a jutsu fast enough to hit Minato before he can teleport away.

 

[MinatoFLASH]

I definitely like how you were not not very biased. But however there are some flaws

Minato is the better s/t user due to rep and things
Minato may also have better ninjutsu its just that not much have been revealed
Minato definitely has better seals
Minato has more speed and better taijutsu
Minato also has more intelligence due to him being called a super genius

I will give the 2nd genjutsu and if you want I may even throw ninjutsu in there.

Still Minato is better overall.

On hype is your opinion, i give it to Minato becuz it was never said 2nd was = to 1st. It said they were both the best. This is only praise man its not the actual thing, the 3rd was also called the best and by Konan even Pain was called the best.

Minato probably has more hype in my opinion becuz it has been mentioned several times how groups of very high lvl ninja were told to flee when they see him even if they know about his jutsu.

Minato is known as the fastest shinobi and the great hero, Naruto's father etc! There is a lot of hype for him man, its the 1st who has recently gotten more hype tho.

Anyways you can give hype to whoever but i choose Minato on that one.

Now even if your right and even if the 2nd is superior to Minato in EVERY thing you mentioned he may be greater than Minato in power but in a 1v1 Minato may still win due to FTG. Which has the rep of killing you even if you know all about it and even A almost got killed with his knowledge of it and even with his speed.

It is very safe to assume Minato's FTG is far more dangerous and unstoppable than the 2nd's s/t becuz of the rep of FTG. Even if 2nd's s/t is the same speed and everything.

Because even when many ppl knew about it they were told to flee, it is safe to assume that someone who has no idea of it wud lose in 1v1 situation.

Because 1v1 IS NOT THE SAME THING AS FEATS!

By your saying Kakashi wud easily beat A in a 1v1

Kakashi has better ninjutsu, genjutsu, he even has a doujutsu, he has more intelligence, and god knows what else!

Yet A wud still win 1v1 due to strength and speed....thats it.

So in a 1v1 Minato wins and as you can see he even has more feats.

Thank you

 

[GonzoZen]

Well Tobirama was a Senju so even if they didnt mention much about him he probably knows a lot of jutsus and of what i read he isnt much weaker than his older brother

 

[Itachi Namikaze]

Well Tobirama was a Senju so even if they didnt mention much about him he probably knows a lot of jutsus and of what i read he isnt much weaker than his older brother

I don't think he was weaker than him at all. Otherwise he wouldn't have died before his brother in war.

People always forget that Hashirama died in war, not of old age. Yet his brother survived that same war.

 

[obiosha]

i think minato is better than tobirama but only slightly .

 

[Gatsuuga]

I don't think he was weaker than him at all. Otherwise he wouldn't have died before his brother in war.

People always forget that Hashirama died in war, not of old age. Yet his brother survived that same war.

Really thats a good point to my arguement, do you happen to know if there is a manga page to back it up? I'm not saying your lieing I just want to see it for interest sake.

 

[Itachi Namikaze]

Really thats a good point to my arguement, do you happen to know if there is a manga page to back it up? I'm not saying your lieing I just want to see it for interest sake.

I can't remember where, but I know for a fact that the databook says that Hashirama died in a war directly following the founding of Konoha.

 

[kaka96]

I can't remember where, but I know for a fact that the databook says that Hashirama died in a war directly following the founding of Konoha.

Seems unlikely since they had to install to political program, elect hashi has Hokage, Madara chosing to revolt leave, find the Kuybi, go back to Konoha, fight Hashi.Hashirama also had to train Hiruzen who's about 70 and Konoha was built a bit over 80years ago so he lived for at least 16-20 years afterwards considering Hiruzen had to be at around 6-10 to be trained.
So he can't have died so soon after Konoha's foundation.

 

[Itachi Namikaze]

Seems unlikely since they had to install to political program, elect hashi has Hokage, Madara chosing to revolt leave, find the Kuybi, go back to Konoha, fight Hashi.Hashirama also had to train Hiruzen who's about 70 and Konoha was built a bit over 80years ago so he lived for at least 16-20 years afterwards considering Hiruzen had to be at around 6-10 to be trained.
So he can't have died so soon after Konoha's foundation.

Not immediately just a short time after Konoha was founded. Technically Konoha wasn't founded until they had decided on Hokage, and that wasn't until after Madara was "defeated".

Secondly Hashirama was not Hiruzen's sensei. He was there some, but Tobirama was Hiruzen's sensei. Hashirama didn't have any students.

Kishi's timeline never makes sense, but I'm just telling you what the databook says.

 

[Beetle]

I hardly see Minato being beat by what we've seen/heard of Tobirama. Minato's been said to be the fastest ninja to ever live, so Tobirama's space-time technique could hardly help him out, though we don't know the details of it.

Tobirama's got strong water techniques (I don't recall reading that he was the strongest water-element user ever) but it's simply no match for Minato who has the most versatile jutsus we've seen (except maybe Tobi's phasing).

 

[kaka96]

Not immediately just a short time after Konoha was founded. Technically Konoha wasn't founded until they had decided on Hokage, and that wasn't until after Madara was "defeated".

Secondly Hashirama was not Hiruzen's sensei. He was there some, but Tobirama was Hiruzen's sensei. Hashirama didn't have any students.

Kishi's timeline never makes sense, but I'm just telling you what the databook says.

Aight maybe not teach him but he spoke to him when he was around 6-8 as seen in otto invasion
so it's basically the 80 of Konoha minus Hiruzen's 70 plus his 6yo
so 16 years after >.>

Maybe the databook says this but it doesn't fit , probably a loophole in the time line as ya said.

And just one thing that I'm sure of .
Madara was defeated after Hashi became Hokage. Tobi said that he (madara) left after feeling betrayed by his clan when everyone voted for Hashirama and they refused to help him fight.

 

[Itachi Namikaze]

Aight maybe not teach him but he spoke to him when he was around 6-8 as seen in otto invasion
so it's basically the 80 of Konoha minus Hiruzen's 70 plus his 6yo
so 16 years after >.>

Maybe the databook says this but it doesn't fit , probably a loophole in the time line as ya said.

And just one thing that I'm sure of .
Madara was defeated after Hashi became Hokage. Tobi said that he (madara) left after feeling betrayed by his clan when everyone voted for Hashirama and they refused to help him fight.

Yes and what happened then? He challenged Hashirama for the title of First Hokage yes? So in my mind it was still in dispute until Hashirama won.