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I have no bias :| I believed Hashirama > Hiruzen and I'm still kinda agreeing with that. I just wasn't sure because I looked at what the manga said.
Clearing up the confusion on who the strongest Hokage is......
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I have no bias :| I believed Hashirama > Hiruzen and I'm still kinda agreeing with that. I just wasn't sure because I looked at what the manga said.
edgarmagician
Member
Really, what do you call bringer of darkness and forest genesis? Those are not some of the 1st top techniques.
Oh wow, I missed a lot of posts.
In regards to Hiruzen, he was said to have known all of the techniques in Konoha in the era that he was known as "The Professor", not the Hiruzen we saw in Part 1. This obviously excludes Kekkai Genkai based techniques, so I don't know why anyone would think that statement includes those. Also, the fact that his chakra levels had dropped to a 3/5 rating meant, as the ANBU watching noted, he couldn't make use of some more chakra taxing techniques like Shadow Clones.
In regards to Hiruzen, he was said to have known all of the techniques in Konoha in the era that he was known as "The Professor", not the Hiruzen we saw in Part 1. This obviously excludes Kekkai Genkai based techniques, so I don't know why anyone would think that statement includes those. Also, the fact that his chakra levels had dropped to a 3/5 rating meant, as the ANBU watching noted, he couldn't make use of some more chakra taxing techniques like Shadow Clones.
blazekev90
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:flaw: your problem is with Hiruzen. So far your argument for him has been based off assumption, a scenario in which everyone was weakened condition, and hype from characters who only personally knew of him (Hiruzen).
Did the 1st have his secret scroll or use his wood style tree and flower world jutsu that Madara just used? No.
Hashirama and Tobirama were clearly nerfed in the battle. Even so they were only toying with Hiruzen.
blazekev90
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did you not read my post? I mentioned these already, yes he was SAID TO BE THE STRONGEST, but I like i said those very characters knew nothing of the past Hokages in depth. Even the anbu watching the fight were clueless of the 1st and 2nd. This statement could be said by anyone of that generation. Now, if this came from someone who knew very well all the Hokages abilities and actually seen them in action, than this statement would stand.
Edit: Accidentally double posted. xd /fixed
Even if you point out that Iruka could have some bias or that characters that have stated this don't know anything, Kishimoto himself says in every databook that Hiruzen in his prime was the most powerful Hokage. In the first databook alone, this is stated at least three times:
Page 117: "He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history." (「„プロフェッサー”と呼ばれたほどの天才忍者であり、歴代最強の火影として皆の尊敬を集め続ける。」, "'Purofessā' to yobareta hodo no tensai ninja de ari, rekidai saikyō no Hokage toshite mina no sonkei o atsume tsuzukeru")
Page 119: "'Strongest in history', 'genius', et cetera, the words used to describe the Third Hokage are filled with respect." (「„歴代最強”„天才”など、三代目火影を形容する言葉は賞賛に満ちている。」, "'Rekidai saikyō' 'tensai' nado, Sandaime Hokage o keiyōsuru kotoba wa shōsan ni michite iru.")
Page 265: "The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi'." (「三代目は歴代火影の中でも最強と言われ、„忍の神”と謳われたことも。」, "Sandaime wa rekidai Hokage no naka demo saikyō to iware, 'Shinobi no Kami' to utawareta koto mo")
Even if you point out that Iruka could have some bias or that characters that have stated this don't know anything, Kishimoto himself says in every databook that Hiruzen in his prime was the most powerful Hokage. In the first databook alone, this is stated at least three times:
Page 117: "He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history." (「„プロフェッサー”と呼ばれたほどの天才忍者であり、歴代最強の火影として皆の尊敬を集め続ける。」, "'Purofessā' to yobareta hodo no tensai ninja de ari, rekidai saikyō no Hokage toshite mina no sonkei o atsume tsuzukeru")
Page 119: "'Strongest in history', 'genius', et cetera, the words used to describe the Third Hokage are filled with respect." (「„歴代最強”„天才”など、三代目火影を形容する言葉は賞賛に満ちている。」, "'Rekidai saikyō' 'tensai' nado, Sandaime Hokage o keiyōsuru kotoba wa shōsan ni michite iru.")
Page 265: "The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi'." (「三代目は歴代火影の中でも最強と言われ、„忍の神”と謳われたことも。」, "Sandaime wa rekidai Hokage no naka demo saikyō to iware, 'Shinobi no Kami' to utawareta koto mo")
edgarmagician
Member
Dude, IWR brings the bodies at the condition that they were at the time they died, which in the first and the second's case was their prime. When they fought Sarutobi in Edo form they were at full power. The 1st might have not used the flower since oro was there, but he did used the tree genesis. Also, you don't think that Sarutobi had a way to cancel the flower? Sarutobi was his student, he knew all about the first and secon's techniques and their weaknesses. Don't forget that Sarutobi was a fire element user as well, he could have burned the he'll out of the flower and the forest.
Oro only controlled the side they fought for, not the techniques they used. Sarutobi beat two Hokages in their prime state.
blazekev90
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lmao this databook is old, and this correlated to the storyline. There are many things stated in that databook that can be easily put into question. I think even Kish would thinking, "why the hell did i say such a thing."
People act as if they cant can up with their point of view on a situation. The creater would have to support his storyline regardless of how it may not make sense.
The user who controls edo tensei decides what jutsu they use. Kabuto even showed that when he was controlling the 3rd Raikage.
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Hashirama and Tobirama were nerfed and didn't use their best jutsu. It's common sense. They were also only toying with him as I said earlier. Also don't bring speculation into this. Hiruzen's never demonstrated any jutsu capable of countering Hashirama's flower world jutsu so until shown in the manga don't say it.
Anyway I'm done. You can believe what you want.
blazekev90
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and its evident tht this infomation is old AF, during the time when only one Hokage was being considered a primary factor.
edgarmagician
Member
Well Hiruzen knew all about their power and strength and still decided to fight both of them with his base abilities. It wasn't until the first used forest genesis that saru summoned Emma. That in itself tells you that Sarutobi believed that he could take them both. If he didn't believe that, he would have summoned Emma right from the start.
Being old=/= being irrelevant. Both the 2nd AND the 3rd databook state the same thing.
The words from the creator of the series=truth in regards to the series. He has constantly written both in the series and in his own writings that Hiruzen is THE strongest Hokage for over a decade now. If you're "point of view on a situation" contradicts something that the author has stated as fact, it's incorrect. Something factual can't be treated as an opinion. Ex: I could say that it is of my opinion that the first Moon landing didn't happen in July of 1969. However, that's a known, established fact, thus an opinion can't be had over it.
edgarmagician
Member
In this case Kabuto decided to take over control. Do you believe that Kabuto is also controlling all the other Edo's who were fighting in the other battlefields? NO, he can't. In the 3 Kage fight fight Oro was fighting as well, so I doubt that he was controlling what jutsus the 1st and 2nd were using.
Being Nerfed is your opinion, it doesn't take away the fact that Hiruzen beat them both and Oro.
blazekev90
Active member
if it was obvious that he was the strongest i would have accepted, and you wouldnt have wasted your time making a thread if it was that apparent, regardless of what was being said. It's not unbelievable that creates someone put their foot into their mouth, and make mistakes, especially if it supports the events of the storyline. The 3rd may be the strongest, but from what we've seen and new updated hype, he's far from it.And you disregard it because you don't want to believe it
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What you have done is simply supported a plot statement, that was mentioned durung the time when only one Hokage was relevent and who was made out to be the fairy tale grandfather.
What I'm doing is looking at everything that has been demonstrated and considering the conditions of each other at that time.
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