Sasuk3Uchiha
Leaf Village Regular 🍃
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2011
- Messages
- 739
- Reaction score
- 95
This post is specifically targeted to those who feel Sasuke can't surpass Itachi. If you feel otherwise, don't feel in any way obligated to read this.
Another topic that I've explored while analyzing some threads on this forum is quite a popular one, concerning the issue of whether Sasuke will ever surpass Itachi, or simply remain in the shadow of his older brother's accomplishments. Again, and unsurprisingly, although there are some who believe that Sasuke will succeed his brother, most of the posts I've seen regarding this matter favor the other viewpoint, that being that Sasuke will never do so, which has led to the creation of this post. As per usual, I will attempt to provide some detailed, reliable information and evidence from the series that show that Sasuke is indeed capable of surpassing Itachi, and he will do so ... in time. Once again, I remind all who read this thread to remember that this is one person's opinion, and I am in no way trying to coerce you into changing your beliefs regarding this topic; I'm simply hoping that you gather something from the points I make that will encourage you to see things from a new perspective.
Before I begin, however, there are two opinions regarding this argument that I've observed once in at least every thread I've gone through dealing with this topic, so I'll address them now. Both comments support the viewpoint that Sasuke will surpass Itachi, but they are have similar faults, and thus shouldn't be used and expected to be recieved as 'Strong Evidence':
1. "Sasuke's obtained his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, so of course he'll surpass Itachi!"
This isn't in any way proof of Sasuke surpassing Itachi, because it's a two-way statement, and anyone who has read/watched Sasuke's conversation with Tobi/Madara following his battle with Itachi should know this; "If Itachi had been serious, there's no doubt in my mind you'd be dead by now." - Tobi/Madara [Shippuden Episode 141: "Truth"]. Therefore, had Itachi meant to kill Sasuke, he most certainly would've succeeded in, and in doing so, obtained his own EMS; this is what makes it a two-way opinion (Though it's not specifically made clear how Itachi could obtain the EMS when Sasuke didn't possess the MS during the time of their battle). To sum things up, Itachi would've had no problems gaining he EMS if he had wanted to, so to use this statement as 'evidence' of Sasuke surpassing Itachi is isn't a very effective argument; everyone on this forum is aware of what Itachi's true intentions were, at least once Madara informed Sasuke of the truth ... and if not, I recommend you re-read/watch those episodes [134-141].
2. "Even if Itachi could've obtain his EMS, the fact of the matter is that Sasuke possesses it now, so he's already surpassed Itachi."
Most times, I see this opinion right after someone uses the first one, as if it's some sort of solid explanation, but it isn't. Although the main point is indeed true (Itachi chose not to obtain the EMS, while Sasuke eventually awakened his), most of you also know (or should know at this point) that Itachi wasn't fighting to awaken his EMS, but rather to push Sasuke to his limits so that Orochimaru could be drawn out, after which he would be able to remove his influence (i.e. the Cursed Seal) from Sasuke [Via Susano'o]. In addition, he was fighting in order to grant his brother a new power (The MS, and ultimately, the EMS), through the feeling of loss that Sasuke would experience in his death. Itachi planned to die at Sasuke's hands in order to accomplish these goals, and everyone at this point should be aware of this; therefore, it makes no sense to use such a 'matter of fact' viewpoint, because most of you are are already aware of the circumstances Itachi was under, so it should be as clear as day that if the circumstances were different, the entire outcome also would've changed; mainly, if Itachi had a completely different background, perhaps one in which he wasn't a pacifist, but someone who desired power at any cost, there's no doubt that he would have the EMS instead of Sasuke. But hey, guess that's just not the plot Kishimoto was going for.
There are quite a few areas in which there is evidence of Sasuke either showing the potential to surpass Itachi, or having done so already. As with my previous threads, this post is open to comments, opinions, and rebuttals. I'll do my best to respond to all of them adequately.
I. Intelligence
For some reason, a disproportionate amount of people believe that Itachi is more intelligent than Sasuke, and I cannot for the life of me, understand why. Unless there's been an episode in which Sasuke was placed in the same situation as Itachi, and didn't strategize in exactly the same way as Itachi did that I somehow missed seeing (and I severly doubt that), then no one should be saying that Itachi is smarter than Sasuke. Then there will be those that say, "Well, Itachi managed to fool Sasuke to the very end, he couldn't even figure out that the higher-ups were manipulating Itachi until Tobi/Madara told him" - to which I'd respond: How was he to know? Itachi's plan was extremely sly, and Sasuke had no idea of the truth, so how could he have escaped Itachi's plan? Of course he didn't know the higher-ups were manipulating Itachi, when his brother told him that he'd murdered the entire clan simply to 'test his ability'. He also knew little about his clan until Tobi/Madara informed him of the truth, so this cannot be counted as an instance in which Itachi is smarter than Sasuke; there weren't any loopholes in Itachi's plan for Sasuke to exploit that would've led to him discovering the truth, as no one knew the real story aside from Itachi (who kept it from him), Danzo and the two elders (who he didn't know during his time in Konoha and thus couldn't assume were involved), and Tobi/Madara (who revealed the truth only after Itachi was dead). However, there have been many instances in which Sasuke has proven how intelligent he is:
1. Sasuke VS. Orochimaru:
Having decided there is nothing more he can learn from Orochimaru, Sasuke abandons his part of the bargain (that is, becoming Orochimaru's new host in exchange for recieving the power necessary to kill Itachi) and resolves to kill Orochimaru; however, he is still bought to the dimension in which the transference ritual takes place, despite defeating Orohimaru's white snake form. It is here that Sasuke turns the process against his former master via his Sharingan - during this moment, Orochimaru recalls how he was rejected in the exact same manner by Itachi, who was also able to turn the process against him when he attempted to steal his body during his time in the Akatsuki. This situation alone should be enough to demonstrate that at during that point in the series, Sasuke's intelligence was on par with Itachi's, as he utilized the exact same strategy Itachi resorted to.
2. Sasuke VS. Deidara:
Shortly after forming Hebi, Sasuke is confronted by Deidara and Tobi and engages in battle with Deidara upon his refusal to provide information about Itachi's whereabouts. During the initial stages of the fight, Sasuke quickly discovered Diedara's element (Earth) through observation with his Sharingan and the use of his Chidori Senbon (he deduced that since only the bomb 'creations' that were struck by the chidori senbon didn't go off, they must of the Earth element, which gives him an advantage, as Lightning is strong against Earth techniques). He later tests this by throwing his lightning-infused katana into the ground under which Tobi's mines were, which confirmed his theory, as the mine struck by the katana didn't go off; in the meantime, Diedara simply thought he'd done this in order to establish a foothold and to extend the range of his Chidori Spear, showing that Sasuke was thinking leaps ahead of his opponent, who was a skilled member of Akatsuki.
3. Sasuke VS. Danzo:
During his fight with Danzo, Sasuke discovered the secrets of Danzo's technique, Izanagi (mainly the amount of time during which it stays active and the fact that it can be released at the user's will), long before Karin revealed it to him; in fact, by the time Danzo's second Sharingan closed, Sasuke had already caught on, which lead him to continuously attack Danzo, forcing him to use up most of his Sharingan, something Danzo didn't notice until it was too late. Also, after finding out that is was possible to trap Danzo in a genjutsu momentarily (via Tsukuyomi) and observing how he always looked at his arm to ensure whether the effects of Izanagi were still active, Sasuke used his MS at some point during his clashes with Danzo to trap him in a genjutsu that left Danzo under the impression that he still had one active Sharigan left in his arm during their final clash, when in reality all of them had been closed, leaving him with a near-fatal wound. This is an excellent example of Sasuke's intelligence, as he was able to outsmart a ninja with years of skill and experience in battling, who also possessed the Sharingan.
In contrast, there aren't as many examples of Itachi's use of intelligence over his adversaries, with the exception of his 'Master Plan', which still can't/shouldn't be used as proof that he is intelligent than Sasuke, since there were no loopholes to counter it. However, with the many instances in which Sasuke has shown his exceptional intelligence, it should be difficult, albeit illogical to say easily that Itachi is the smarter of the two; ever since Sasuke's battle with Orochimaru, that theory should've been pushed out the window.
II. Chakra Reserves
One area in which it should be crystal clear that Sasuke has surpassed his brother is that of chakra reserves. A prime example can be observed when looking back at their use of techniques between Part I and Part II:
Part I/II - Sasuke: Use of Chidori
During part one of the series, Sasuke was only capable of using the Chidori twice on his own, with an additional shot added upon activation of his Cursed Seal; however, throughout Part II, Sasuke is shown making multiple uses of Chidori, among its other forms (i.e. Chidori Senbon, Chidori Spear), which require a large amount of chakra as well (Lightning Release tends to require more chakra than other Nature Transformations), even without the cursed seal. Simply put, Sasuke's chakra reserves have increased dramatically through the timeskip.
Part I/II - Itachi: Use of Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu
During part one of the series, after using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke and then Amaterasu in order to escape Jiraiya's jutsu, Itachi was so exhausted he had to deactivate his normal Sharingan. Two years later, during his final battle with Sasuke, using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu on Sasuke left him considerably drained; by the time he'd activated his Susano'o and it reached its final form, his eyes had lost the Mangekyo design in them, and only the red iris remained. In contrast to Sasuke, Itachi's chakra reserves showed little growth throughout the timeskip. However, the lack of growth of his charkra reserves may well be attributed to the illness he suffered from; unfortunately, this has yet to be confirmed in the anime/manga.
This difference in chakra reserves can be seen throughout many of the episodes involving Itachi and Sasuke; the latter has almost always demonstrated his greater charkra reserve in his battles; For example, during his fights with Killer Bee, and Danzo, Sasuke utilized all three of his Mangekyo Sharingan techniques, and quite consistently as well (i.e. during his fight with Danzo, he utilized Tsukuyomi and Susano'o at least two times each before getting exhausted, in addition to using Amaterasu). During his fight with the Raikage, he demonstrated the use of Amaterasu and Susano'o in combination, effectively creating Blaze Release, an act that must've required a large amount of chakra (under the assumption that it takes more chakra to manipulate the flames of Amaterasu than it does the techniques derived from the Chidori). In addition to his MS techniques, Sasuke is also seen using other chakra-consuming techniqes (i.e. Chidori, Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique). In contrast, Itachi struggled to use Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu without suffering greatly, and his use of Susano'o ultimately led to his death. Bringing things to a close, this is one area in which even the most stubborn of believers should be able to admit that Sasuke has indeed surpassed his brother in. It also plays an important role in the next field I'm about to discuss: Shape Transformation.
III. Shape Transformation
Both Itachi and Sasuke are proficient in their element of Fire (i.e. Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique) with the latter also being skilled in the element of Lightning. However, in terms of combining Nature Transformation with Shape transformation, Sasuke has shown superior ability, while I don't think I've ever seen Itachi use an advanced Fire Release Technique, besides Phoenix Sage Fire (if there are more, please remind me, and provide the episode in which it was observed). Sasuke has been successful in combining Nature and Shape Transformations with both of his natural affinities (Fire & Lightning), and even created an entirely new element (Blaze Release):
[Fire Release]
- Dragon Fire Technique
- Great Dragon Fire Technique
- Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
[Lightning Release]
- Chidori Current
- Chidori Spear
- Chidori Senbon
- Kirin
[Blaze Release]
- Kagutsuchi
Since some of the techniques derived through Shape Transformation require more chakra (i.e. Great Dragon Fire Technique consumes more chakra than Great Fireball Technique), with a few exceptions (i.e. Kirin, which draws power from actual lightning), my theory is that one must have the necessary chakra reserves in order to make use of them. In this case, another reason why Itachi barely demonstrated any use of Shape Transformation, aside from his illness, was because he didn't possess the necessary chakra reserves to do so, whereas Sasuke did.
In either case, by now, I hope a few of you have come to see that while Sasuke hasn't completely surpassed Itachi in all fields (i.e. Genjutsu), there are areas in which he has (such as those I've mentioned in this post). Furthermore, Sasuke is still growing stronger, and as he continues to do so, it is inevitable that he will eventually surpass his Itachi in all aspects (Aside from peace, which was never really an option for him).
Another topic that I've explored while analyzing some threads on this forum is quite a popular one, concerning the issue of whether Sasuke will ever surpass Itachi, or simply remain in the shadow of his older brother's accomplishments. Again, and unsurprisingly, although there are some who believe that Sasuke will succeed his brother, most of the posts I've seen regarding this matter favor the other viewpoint, that being that Sasuke will never do so, which has led to the creation of this post. As per usual, I will attempt to provide some detailed, reliable information and evidence from the series that show that Sasuke is indeed capable of surpassing Itachi, and he will do so ... in time. Once again, I remind all who read this thread to remember that this is one person's opinion, and I am in no way trying to coerce you into changing your beliefs regarding this topic; I'm simply hoping that you gather something from the points I make that will encourage you to see things from a new perspective.
Before I begin, however, there are two opinions regarding this argument that I've observed once in at least every thread I've gone through dealing with this topic, so I'll address them now. Both comments support the viewpoint that Sasuke will surpass Itachi, but they are have similar faults, and thus shouldn't be used and expected to be recieved as 'Strong Evidence':
1. "Sasuke's obtained his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, so of course he'll surpass Itachi!"
This isn't in any way proof of Sasuke surpassing Itachi, because it's a two-way statement, and anyone who has read/watched Sasuke's conversation with Tobi/Madara following his battle with Itachi should know this; "If Itachi had been serious, there's no doubt in my mind you'd be dead by now." - Tobi/Madara [Shippuden Episode 141: "Truth"]. Therefore, had Itachi meant to kill Sasuke, he most certainly would've succeeded in, and in doing so, obtained his own EMS; this is what makes it a two-way opinion (Though it's not specifically made clear how Itachi could obtain the EMS when Sasuke didn't possess the MS during the time of their battle). To sum things up, Itachi would've had no problems gaining he EMS if he had wanted to, so to use this statement as 'evidence' of Sasuke surpassing Itachi is isn't a very effective argument; everyone on this forum is aware of what Itachi's true intentions were, at least once Madara informed Sasuke of the truth ... and if not, I recommend you re-read/watch those episodes [134-141].
2. "Even if Itachi could've obtain his EMS, the fact of the matter is that Sasuke possesses it now, so he's already surpassed Itachi."
Most times, I see this opinion right after someone uses the first one, as if it's some sort of solid explanation, but it isn't. Although the main point is indeed true (Itachi chose not to obtain the EMS, while Sasuke eventually awakened his), most of you also know (or should know at this point) that Itachi wasn't fighting to awaken his EMS, but rather to push Sasuke to his limits so that Orochimaru could be drawn out, after which he would be able to remove his influence (i.e. the Cursed Seal) from Sasuke [Via Susano'o]. In addition, he was fighting in order to grant his brother a new power (The MS, and ultimately, the EMS), through the feeling of loss that Sasuke would experience in his death. Itachi planned to die at Sasuke's hands in order to accomplish these goals, and everyone at this point should be aware of this; therefore, it makes no sense to use such a 'matter of fact' viewpoint, because most of you are are already aware of the circumstances Itachi was under, so it should be as clear as day that if the circumstances were different, the entire outcome also would've changed; mainly, if Itachi had a completely different background, perhaps one in which he wasn't a pacifist, but someone who desired power at any cost, there's no doubt that he would have the EMS instead of Sasuke. But hey, guess that's just not the plot Kishimoto was going for.
There are quite a few areas in which there is evidence of Sasuke either showing the potential to surpass Itachi, or having done so already. As with my previous threads, this post is open to comments, opinions, and rebuttals. I'll do my best to respond to all of them adequately.
I. Intelligence
For some reason, a disproportionate amount of people believe that Itachi is more intelligent than Sasuke, and I cannot for the life of me, understand why. Unless there's been an episode in which Sasuke was placed in the same situation as Itachi, and didn't strategize in exactly the same way as Itachi did that I somehow missed seeing (and I severly doubt that), then no one should be saying that Itachi is smarter than Sasuke. Then there will be those that say, "Well, Itachi managed to fool Sasuke to the very end, he couldn't even figure out that the higher-ups were manipulating Itachi until Tobi/Madara told him" - to which I'd respond: How was he to know? Itachi's plan was extremely sly, and Sasuke had no idea of the truth, so how could he have escaped Itachi's plan? Of course he didn't know the higher-ups were manipulating Itachi, when his brother told him that he'd murdered the entire clan simply to 'test his ability'. He also knew little about his clan until Tobi/Madara informed him of the truth, so this cannot be counted as an instance in which Itachi is smarter than Sasuke; there weren't any loopholes in Itachi's plan for Sasuke to exploit that would've led to him discovering the truth, as no one knew the real story aside from Itachi (who kept it from him), Danzo and the two elders (who he didn't know during his time in Konoha and thus couldn't assume were involved), and Tobi/Madara (who revealed the truth only after Itachi was dead). However, there have been many instances in which Sasuke has proven how intelligent he is:
1. Sasuke VS. Orochimaru:
Having decided there is nothing more he can learn from Orochimaru, Sasuke abandons his part of the bargain (that is, becoming Orochimaru's new host in exchange for recieving the power necessary to kill Itachi) and resolves to kill Orochimaru; however, he is still bought to the dimension in which the transference ritual takes place, despite defeating Orohimaru's white snake form. It is here that Sasuke turns the process against his former master via his Sharingan - during this moment, Orochimaru recalls how he was rejected in the exact same manner by Itachi, who was also able to turn the process against him when he attempted to steal his body during his time in the Akatsuki. This situation alone should be enough to demonstrate that at during that point in the series, Sasuke's intelligence was on par with Itachi's, as he utilized the exact same strategy Itachi resorted to.
2. Sasuke VS. Deidara:
Shortly after forming Hebi, Sasuke is confronted by Deidara and Tobi and engages in battle with Deidara upon his refusal to provide information about Itachi's whereabouts. During the initial stages of the fight, Sasuke quickly discovered Diedara's element (Earth) through observation with his Sharingan and the use of his Chidori Senbon (he deduced that since only the bomb 'creations' that were struck by the chidori senbon didn't go off, they must of the Earth element, which gives him an advantage, as Lightning is strong against Earth techniques). He later tests this by throwing his lightning-infused katana into the ground under which Tobi's mines were, which confirmed his theory, as the mine struck by the katana didn't go off; in the meantime, Diedara simply thought he'd done this in order to establish a foothold and to extend the range of his Chidori Spear, showing that Sasuke was thinking leaps ahead of his opponent, who was a skilled member of Akatsuki.
3. Sasuke VS. Danzo:
During his fight with Danzo, Sasuke discovered the secrets of Danzo's technique, Izanagi (mainly the amount of time during which it stays active and the fact that it can be released at the user's will), long before Karin revealed it to him; in fact, by the time Danzo's second Sharingan closed, Sasuke had already caught on, which lead him to continuously attack Danzo, forcing him to use up most of his Sharingan, something Danzo didn't notice until it was too late. Also, after finding out that is was possible to trap Danzo in a genjutsu momentarily (via Tsukuyomi) and observing how he always looked at his arm to ensure whether the effects of Izanagi were still active, Sasuke used his MS at some point during his clashes with Danzo to trap him in a genjutsu that left Danzo under the impression that he still had one active Sharigan left in his arm during their final clash, when in reality all of them had been closed, leaving him with a near-fatal wound. This is an excellent example of Sasuke's intelligence, as he was able to outsmart a ninja with years of skill and experience in battling, who also possessed the Sharingan.
In contrast, there aren't as many examples of Itachi's use of intelligence over his adversaries, with the exception of his 'Master Plan', which still can't/shouldn't be used as proof that he is intelligent than Sasuke, since there were no loopholes to counter it. However, with the many instances in which Sasuke has shown his exceptional intelligence, it should be difficult, albeit illogical to say easily that Itachi is the smarter of the two; ever since Sasuke's battle with Orochimaru, that theory should've been pushed out the window.
II. Chakra Reserves
One area in which it should be crystal clear that Sasuke has surpassed his brother is that of chakra reserves. A prime example can be observed when looking back at their use of techniques between Part I and Part II:
Part I/II - Sasuke: Use of Chidori
During part one of the series, Sasuke was only capable of using the Chidori twice on his own, with an additional shot added upon activation of his Cursed Seal; however, throughout Part II, Sasuke is shown making multiple uses of Chidori, among its other forms (i.e. Chidori Senbon, Chidori Spear), which require a large amount of chakra as well (Lightning Release tends to require more chakra than other Nature Transformations), even without the cursed seal. Simply put, Sasuke's chakra reserves have increased dramatically through the timeskip.
Part I/II - Itachi: Use of Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu
During part one of the series, after using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke and then Amaterasu in order to escape Jiraiya's jutsu, Itachi was so exhausted he had to deactivate his normal Sharingan. Two years later, during his final battle with Sasuke, using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu on Sasuke left him considerably drained; by the time he'd activated his Susano'o and it reached its final form, his eyes had lost the Mangekyo design in them, and only the red iris remained. In contrast to Sasuke, Itachi's chakra reserves showed little growth throughout the timeskip. However, the lack of growth of his charkra reserves may well be attributed to the illness he suffered from; unfortunately, this has yet to be confirmed in the anime/manga.
This difference in chakra reserves can be seen throughout many of the episodes involving Itachi and Sasuke; the latter has almost always demonstrated his greater charkra reserve in his battles; For example, during his fights with Killer Bee, and Danzo, Sasuke utilized all three of his Mangekyo Sharingan techniques, and quite consistently as well (i.e. during his fight with Danzo, he utilized Tsukuyomi and Susano'o at least two times each before getting exhausted, in addition to using Amaterasu). During his fight with the Raikage, he demonstrated the use of Amaterasu and Susano'o in combination, effectively creating Blaze Release, an act that must've required a large amount of chakra (under the assumption that it takes more chakra to manipulate the flames of Amaterasu than it does the techniques derived from the Chidori). In addition to his MS techniques, Sasuke is also seen using other chakra-consuming techniqes (i.e. Chidori, Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique). In contrast, Itachi struggled to use Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu without suffering greatly, and his use of Susano'o ultimately led to his death. Bringing things to a close, this is one area in which even the most stubborn of believers should be able to admit that Sasuke has indeed surpassed his brother in. It also plays an important role in the next field I'm about to discuss: Shape Transformation.
III. Shape Transformation
Both Itachi and Sasuke are proficient in their element of Fire (i.e. Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique) with the latter also being skilled in the element of Lightning. However, in terms of combining Nature Transformation with Shape transformation, Sasuke has shown superior ability, while I don't think I've ever seen Itachi use an advanced Fire Release Technique, besides Phoenix Sage Fire (if there are more, please remind me, and provide the episode in which it was observed). Sasuke has been successful in combining Nature and Shape Transformations with both of his natural affinities (Fire & Lightning), and even created an entirely new element (Blaze Release):
[Fire Release]
- Dragon Fire Technique
- Great Dragon Fire Technique
- Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
[Lightning Release]
- Chidori Current
- Chidori Spear
- Chidori Senbon
- Kirin
[Blaze Release]
- Kagutsuchi
Since some of the techniques derived through Shape Transformation require more chakra (i.e. Great Dragon Fire Technique consumes more chakra than Great Fireball Technique), with a few exceptions (i.e. Kirin, which draws power from actual lightning), my theory is that one must have the necessary chakra reserves in order to make use of them. In this case, another reason why Itachi barely demonstrated any use of Shape Transformation, aside from his illness, was because he didn't possess the necessary chakra reserves to do so, whereas Sasuke did.
In either case, by now, I hope a few of you have come to see that while Sasuke hasn't completely surpassed Itachi in all fields (i.e. Genjutsu), there are areas in which he has (such as those I've mentioned in this post). Furthermore, Sasuke is still growing stronger, and as he continues to do so, it is inevitable that he will eventually surpass his Itachi in all aspects (Aside from peace, which was never really an option for him).
Last edited:
