Kakashi much smarter than jiraiya
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Ero sennin
Active member
kakashis fighting a ninja whos power is nothing that they ever seen before. kakashi is useing the lightning clone as reconicanse in battle to find out the bodys ability before he strikes. now that one body is down. they will wear pein down one body at a time. both jiraiya and kakashi are equal in diferent ways kakashi knows thousand of jutsus has the sharingan and the ms plus being the son of the white fang sakumo who was equal with the sanin . jiraiya has knowlege of sealing jutsu and hermit arts and sage mode and some unque jutsu of his own. they a both highly intellegent shinobi jiraiya unfortunately had the short straw and had to battle pein first. he did figure out his weakness 4 the village to be able to defeat pein once and for all. kakashi will realise what the secret is behind pein soon. its might not be naruto vs pein but naruto vs negato.
6th hokage
Member
i am not debating on the issue "who is smarter who is not", but i am against the validity of the logic that is put up to back the issue.
i read ur previous post in this thread, and u accused ppl of worshipping jiraiya or hellbent rather than accepting the valid points they had presented. thats not fair when the premise of ur own debate is based only on (preconcieved view of) kakashi's character and no substantial logic. i request u to read my post once more and give ur points to prove me wrong rather than saying 'kakashi cant do it', 'i dont believe'. when fuka himself told "he told everything he knew abt pain", not accepting this - isnt it being 'hellbent', or 'worshipping'?
we r not saying kakashi is not smart, he is very very smart and one of my favorite character. but its alright to forget sth what he heard and remembering sth instantly when he faced the situation. (hearing abt sth doesnt give the full picture until u experience it urself. its basic human trait) it doesnt make him any less smarter. i will call it is uncharacteristic of kakashi, if he made the mistake 2nd time after he saw it himself. and to kakashi's defence, it was only clone, so he can take few chances as it is clone. ppl made mistakes, shikamaru's plan sometime fails(eg. initial part of kakuzu fight). sorry but ur way of viewing kakashi borders on 'worship' i have to say.
PS. personally i am not yet convinced kakashi is sannin level yet. i have to wait a few chapters and see the fight against pain.
PS2. the whole point of jman vs pain from jman's perspective was to pass on as much info as possible to konoha, so they can take on pain with the real possibilty of defeating him. now its kakashi's turn to capitalize on that.
1st of all, i have absolutely no problem what u believe. u r entitled to express ur opinion. i or most of us just dont agree with u. i am a member of a few forum, i havent seen anyone debated on this. the reason i mentioned that, its pretty obvious(to most of us atleast) what happened in last manga, page 9. everybdy saw thru this.
i read ur previous post in this thread, and u accused ppl of worshipping jiraiya or hellbent rather than accepting the valid points they had presented. thats not fair when the premise of ur own debate is based only on (preconcieved view of) kakashi's character and no substantial logic. i request u to read my post once more and give ur points to prove me wrong rather than saying 'kakashi cant do it', 'i dont believe'. when fuka himself told "he told everything he knew abt pain", not accepting this - isnt it being 'hellbent', or 'worshipping'?
we r not saying kakashi is not smart, he is very very smart and one of my favorite character. but its alright to forget sth what he heard and remembering sth instantly when he faced the situation. (hearing abt sth doesnt give the full picture until u experience it urself. its basic human trait) it doesnt make him any less smarter. i will call it is uncharacteristic of kakashi, if he made the mistake 2nd time after he saw it himself. and to kakashi's defence, it was only clone, so he can take few chances as it is clone. ppl made mistakes, shikamaru's plan sometime fails(eg. initial part of kakuzu fight). sorry but ur way of viewing kakashi borders on 'worship' i have to say.
PS. personally i am not yet convinced kakashi is sannin level yet. i have to wait a few chapters and see the fight against pain.
PS2. the whole point of jman vs pain from jman's perspective was to pass on as much info as possible to konoha, so they can take on pain with the real possibilty of defeating him. now its kakashi's turn to capitalize on that.
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QwertyHero
Active member
Kakashi and Jiraiya were both VERY intelligent shinobi but I'd have to say hands down Kakashi is smarter.
Kakashi is one of the smartest ninja in Naruto, Next to Itachi, Shikamaru, Pein, and Orochimaru [Mostly because he was able to know so many jutsu's without a bloodline limit like Sharingan]
I mean, don't get me wrong, Jiraiya was a smart guy, as shown when he fought Pein, but he's not on the level Kakashi's on.
Kakashi is one of the smartest ninja in Naruto, Next to Itachi, Shikamaru, Pein, and Orochimaru [Mostly because he was able to know so many jutsu's without a bloodline limit like Sharingan]
I mean, don't get me wrong, Jiraiya was a smart guy, as shown when he fought Pein, but he's not on the level Kakashi's on.
kakashi figure it out quickly bcoz of information from jiraiya that's why........
jiraiya died bcoz pein is his student its hard to kill ur own student in ur own hand....and a fight is 6 vs 1 or 1 sage vs 6 rinnegan user there is no chance to fight such as power of rinnegan......even jiraiya
BTW kakashi have a sharinggan and jiraiya have a ordinary eye
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Yep. I agree. When Kakashi states Pain's ability to see through each others eyes there is a picture of fukakasu in the background.
My opion of the smartest ninjas in Naruto
Kakashi
Itachi
Jiraiya
Shikamaru
twistedlink
Banned
you mean the thread where everyone said jiraiya can beat itachi despite itachi having a legendary item that blocks any attack?
Yeah, real valid.
I get fukasaku must have told him something
But why is kakashi putting his life at risk being a **** forgetting what fukasaku said?
It's just really not like kakashi to do that, its made his character seem completely retarded, of all ninjas kakashi is the last to be given information, go into a fight full on without making a battle plan, and then forgetting the enemies abilities.
Come on, thats NOT kakashi, i hear a lot here that kishi is a smart writer, that may be true, but he did not write kakashis character accurately at all this last manga, this is just not kakashis fighting style.
dude, yes kakashi is DEFINATELY one of the smartest in the series. he's actually like....my 4th favorite character. and shikamaru killing hidan(akatsuki) is a perfect example of smarts being a strength. but kakashi is different than shikamaru. he's smart but things still surprise him in battle. fukasaku told him about pein, thats a given in sheer facts. i don't think he forgot about pein's abilities at all. kishi just had to find a way for the readers to see how kakashi would think back to peins abilities. it gives the manga a more intense feeling.
and to that "yatas mirror" once again. orochimaru was a fool. a genius, but a fool. he discovered unknown jutsu and experimented with scientific power nobody else could comprehend. but that doesn't mean he has the knowledge to dodge something like susanoo's sword. he's a psychopath, too caught up in his hunger for power and mayhem. that blindness caused him to overlook itachi. ending in his death. the sannin are 53 years old in the shippuden. let's see. they start training to be ninja probably around the age of 7....8? so that's roughly 45 years of battle experience for the sannin. jiraiya and tsunade arn't blinded by chaos. that's why i think they could dodge or at least escape susanoo. itachi isn't stupid, but MS doesn't mean "you win". it's just extra power. like every other jutsu out there right?
idk, i think itachi is one of the top 6 strongest ninja ever. but a few could take his MS in my opinion. speed defeats amaterasu, chakra level and focus defeat tsukuyomi, speed and focus defeat susanoo. lot's of ninja have all those.
i'm not putting itachi down(like you put jiraiya down). i actually kind of like itachi. but i just think people overestimate him TOO much. but i guess thats how you kinda feel about people loving jiraiya too much.
but these are just my opinions and what i believe in facts. you can believe whatever you want. but i've done too much thinking about this MS stuff. it'd be hard to change my mind.
kakashi might catch on to situations faster than jiraiya but thats only because kakashi has lots of info on him already name is pain, he has 6 bodys and etc.
Kakashi just used his info to his advantage basicly dont mean his smarter than jiraiya...
Kakashi just used his info to his advantage basicly dont mean his smarter than jiraiya...
QwertyHero
Active member
I definitely agree with you on the difference between Kakashi and Shikamaru.
Shikamaru goes into a battle with the whole fight ALREADY planned out in his head to a T. Kakashi is more laid back, he knows info going into a fight, and he has a general idea of what he'll do in order to be effective during the fight, BUT he never really considers the variables of a fight, like you said, he let's things surprise him and reacts to them accordingly.
Yes, Kakashi is smart, BUT he's also lazy and hapless, and if he fights an opponent that he's never seen before [Especially someone has un-predictable as Pein] he's bound to be surprised here and there.
And one thing, I'm not trying to make this into another Itachi V.S Jiraiya thread, but I fell like I kinda have to throw my 2 cents in.
One thing that I feel also beats Jiraiya is not only Susanoo, but the fact that Itachi can still move around WHILE using Susanoo.
So say Jiraiya wanted to run, or avoid Susanoo, not only would he have to outrun the speed of Itachi [And you have to admit, Jiraiya can NEVER outrun Itachi, Itachi is faster than Kisame, and that's saying something seeing as Kisame at 30% power could keep up with Gai in his 6th gate form] BUT he'd also have to outrun the speed and range of Susanoo's sword, which to me, is impossible unless someone Reverse Summons you. Like I said, It would be impossible for Jiraiya to beat Itachi, but I think he sure could escape with his life if he was smart.
twistedlink
Banned
susano himself and the sword itself is just a tool that can be dodged or beaten, yes.
But yatas mirror is a legendary item that deflects all attacks, the best anyone can do against itachi is draw, as soon as itachis in trouble theoretically he can summon up the yatas mirror and make a quick getaway and heal somewhere.
He can never be killed, he only killed himself for his brother.
I get that kishi wanted the readers to see how kakashi is understanding pains powers, but he did it in a way that made kakashi seem stupid, thats all.
Yeah hes a sannin, but i think its been proved once and again that the sannin are the previous generation, in fact many previous generations, and that orochimaru was owned by itachi, scared of sasori, and in general despite being hella powerful-not that great compared to many akatsuki.
Jiraiyas smart, dont get me wrong, definitely top 3-5 in smarts, and definitely top 3-5 in strength including all the dead ninjas, but meh, i dont like the jiraiya loving, he has great skills but he doesn't have any major trump card, it appears sage mode was his trump card, and pain still owned him pretty quickly and efficiently, jiraiya only succeeded truly in one attack, and that was only thanks to pa and ma toads genjutsu.
If jiraiya didnt have them toads to do that genjutsu he'd doubtfully have even landed one attack against pain, yet while kakashi hasnt landed an attack against pain, hes against god realm.
Also chouji (or his dad) as owned a pain body, in seconds, hes definitely not stronger than jiraiya, so its difficult to tell powers really....
its more the situation, environment, and the type of jutsus, rather than power alone, like zetsu says, a expert with a stone can kill a novice with a kunai.
sometimes i think people rely just on S-class ninjutsu, for example everyones saying naruto is now worthy of hokage because of rasenshuriken, dont get me wrong, awesome jutsu, but he lacks the experience, the smarts, and the speed.
Unless kishi is ending things soon, naruto is not going to beat pain, not permanently anyway, not for a long time, and in that long time im sure he will gain access to many more jutsus.
I mean lets put naruto against the 4th, super S class ninjutsu against the 4th, wont work because he can use the kunai to teleport, oh look, right behind naruto, rasengan to the head.
Standard rasengan can beat naruto if the user has more speed or a supporting jutsu (such as teleporting kunai)
Its not just about sheer power
But yatas mirror is a legendary item that deflects all attacks, the best anyone can do against itachi is draw, as soon as itachis in trouble theoretically he can summon up the yatas mirror and make a quick getaway and heal somewhere.
He can never be killed, he only killed himself for his brother.
I get that kishi wanted the readers to see how kakashi is understanding pains powers, but he did it in a way that made kakashi seem stupid, thats all.
I feel exactly the same about jiraiya, that people overestimate him too much.
Yeah hes a sannin, but i think its been proved once and again that the sannin are the previous generation, in fact many previous generations, and that orochimaru was owned by itachi, scared of sasori, and in general despite being hella powerful-not that great compared to many akatsuki.
Jiraiyas smart, dont get me wrong, definitely top 3-5 in smarts, and definitely top 3-5 in strength including all the dead ninjas, but meh, i dont like the jiraiya loving, he has great skills but he doesn't have any major trump card, it appears sage mode was his trump card, and pain still owned him pretty quickly and efficiently, jiraiya only succeeded truly in one attack, and that was only thanks to pa and ma toads genjutsu.
If jiraiya didnt have them toads to do that genjutsu he'd doubtfully have even landed one attack against pain, yet while kakashi hasnt landed an attack against pain, hes against god realm.
Also chouji (or his dad) as owned a pain body, in seconds, hes definitely not stronger than jiraiya, so its difficult to tell powers really....
its more the situation, environment, and the type of jutsus, rather than power alone, like zetsu says, a expert with a stone can kill a novice with a kunai.
sometimes i think people rely just on S-class ninjutsu, for example everyones saying naruto is now worthy of hokage because of rasenshuriken, dont get me wrong, awesome jutsu, but he lacks the experience, the smarts, and the speed.
Unless kishi is ending things soon, naruto is not going to beat pain, not permanently anyway, not for a long time, and in that long time im sure he will gain access to many more jutsus.
I mean lets put naruto against the 4th, super S class ninjutsu against the 4th, wont work because he can use the kunai to teleport, oh look, right behind naruto, rasengan to the head.
Standard rasengan can beat naruto if the user has more speed or a supporting jutsu (such as teleporting kunai)
Its not just about sheer power
ok yes i agree with most of what you said, lol but since im too tired too respond ill make this quick(im going to see a movie soon anyway so i gotta hurry).
the next generation does always surpass the previous one so it would make sense that itachi could beat jiraiya. but as many have stated, there are some that are generations before their time. like the 4th and much more ninja. but i guess between the whole jiraiya vs itachi thing. we really don't know who would win, its just us looking at facts and making our judgment who we think could escape who and overcome the other.
the whole chouji hitting pein thing, tell you the truth, im not surprised. it doesn't matter how strong or weak you are(like you said). i believe its how you plan the fight and act against the opponents weaknesses. pein didn't see chouji, thats why chouji hit him. chouji is weak compared to people like hokages and sannin and such, but it doesn't mean he useless you know?
ok im out see u guys later.
QwertyHero
Active member
Exactly.
Naruto has never been like that, like one person is DEFINITELY stronger than one person.
Naruto [the anime/manga] has never conformed to other manga's because in every other manga's [Like DBZ] it's always ''Person A can beat Person B no matter what, and anyone weaker than Person B has no chance against Person A'' But in Naruto, anyone can win or lose against anyone, GIVEN THE RIGHT SITUATION.
That's why I think Jiraiya loses.
Because in a standard, one-on-one fight, with no variables whatsoever, Jiraiya would lose.
Jiraiya might win an 2-on-1, as long as he had another strong partner, but if your talking about a one-on-one fight, I don't think there's many people him one-on-one.
6th hokage
Member
dude did u completely forget it was just a clone, while real kakashi was under the rubble planning how to make his next move. starting from the shockwave like explosion, its all clone(read 421,422 kakashi's fight). we know clones are being used to test opponent's ability. thats what he is doing without taking any risk. in the process getting first hand experience of what fuka said. putting his life at risk is out of the way.
lets wait and see the fight more. then comment if he(kk) is being drawn retarded or not.
twistedlink
Banned
he only replaced himself with a clone just before he was being drawn in.
Lets go through the facts.
Kakashi has been stabbed and blown away, if that was a clone itd have died-twice.
Meaning a lot of the fight was his real self, he replaced himself with a clone after these two happenings.
Most likely during the rubble when pain shot him far away from manga 421
So actually, kakashi is going in full blast with his real body at the beginning of the fight
Lets go through the facts.
Kakashi has been stabbed and blown away, if that was a clone itd have died-twice.
Meaning a lot of the fight was his real self, he replaced himself with a clone after these two happenings.
Most likely during the rubble when pain shot him far away from manga 421
So actually, kakashi is going in full blast with his real body at the beginning of the fight
6th hokage
Member
i am sorry that we have fundamental difference. anyway i wont continue on this after this post.
i said
ok, i get it. it was typo and "starting from" is misleading. what i actually said or wanted to say until shockwave it was real kakashi. just after the explosion, he went under rubble, switched and then fought with clone.
lets go thru actual facts. i will give all the frames of kakashi fight sequentially. u decide.
real kakashi (manga 420, pg 10)
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next frames (421, 13-14). kakashi switched. clone kakashi raising his head from rubble. then raiton clone making raiton dog move.
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next frames(422,09-15) clone kakashi-
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ok, acc to u if kakashi switched just before he was drawn in, when did he switch? he was always under watch of pain, apart from the time interval when the explosion occured and after that explosion kakashi come out from rubble.
go thru the frames again, and tell me, how come he switched just before the drawing in incident when pain was watching him all along. is it some sorta magic?
next frames(422,16-17). now the real kakashi rising from rubble (where he switched)
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so, the 'controversial' frame(manga 422, pg 09) u r talking abt contains clone kakashi. and so he was not taking risk, rather testing opponents ability. which is not 'retarded' at all.
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Hi guys, Kakashi is "smarter", but in this fight he just "survived". He fought Pein 1vs1. He didn't even scratch any of Pein, couldn't TOUCH.
As I said, he may be smarter, but plz accept, he doesn't have enough fight experiences like J-man and definitely not stronger than him. When the second one arrived(Pein) he was hiding somewhere ALREADY.
Don't overestimate him. And he did the right thing, he should not fight with Pein one on one. He is did a smart thing hiding himself. Naruto would've gone straight if was there, because CANNOT think like Kkshi.
My respects to Chouji and his dad. Though I don't believe that fat Pein guy died yet.
As I said, he may be smarter, but plz accept, he doesn't have enough fight experiences like J-man and definitely not stronger than him. When the second one arrived(Pein) he was hiding somewhere ALREADY.
Don't overestimate him. And he did the right thing, he should not fight with Pein one on one. He is did a smart thing hiding himself. Naruto would've gone straight if was there, because CANNOT think like Kkshi.
My respects to Chouji and his dad. Though I don't believe that fat Pein guy died yet.
twistedlink
Banned
Ive got no problem with what youre saying
What im trying to say is kakashi went in without planning things carefully at all and his real body ended up wounded-twice.
Thats not kakashis style, thats all im saying
QwertyHero
Active member
Yea, the question isn't who has more battle experience, or who is stronger, [Obviously it would be Jiraiya] it's who is the smarter shinobi.
I think Kakashi has basically established himself as one of the top 5 smartest shinobi in Naruto, and so has Jiraiya, but I think Kakashi might be ranked 3rd while Jiraiya is probably ranked 4th.