Kakashi vs Itachi(No MS)

[fastrthnwind]

Actually in the data book kakashi's foot speed is 4.5/5 same as sasuke. Itachi is 5/5 and if you watched the itachi vs sasuke fight, not only was he able to avoid all sasuke's kunai assualt he was able to create another clone, which then dispersed into a clock of crows coming sasuke's way. Also he blitz fast sasuke before he kicked him and used tsukuyomi. This is the itachi before he used the ms.

There is no way in hell kakashi is winning. Also you say kakashi has the sharigan therefore genjutsu wouldnt affect him. Sasuke has more mastery of the sharigan not only because he is an uchiha, but also he supressed the fox's power with it, something kakashi cannot do. Even tobi commented on his use of the sharigan against deidora and not even this sasuke could dispell itachi's genjutsu, not to forget sasuke is also a genjutsu specialist.Even with ms, itachi takes this. Even say pre ms sasuke would beat kakashi

Itachi himself praised kakashi's mastery over the sharingan despite being a non-uchiha. And sasuke broke out of itachis tsukuyomi when they had the battle of their eyes. That means that if your mastery of the sharingan is great enough, then you can break out of any genjutsu, even tsukuyomi.

 

[Blaze Release]

Itachi himself praised kakashi's mastery over the sharingan despite being a non-uchiha. And sasuke broke out of itachis tsukuyomi when they had the battle of their eyes. That means that if your mastery of the sharingan is great enough, then you can break out of any genjutsu, even tsukuyomi.

I shouldve made myself clear, sorry. I was talking about the genjustu duel he had. But also the crows that itachi kept making. Especially the one that dispersed and came at sasuke. Even if kakashi has mastery of the sharigan, he isnt as good with it as sasuke.

Also off topic in order to break out of tsukuyomi you must not only have mastery of the sharigan you also have to be an uchiha.

Pre ms sasuke can beat kakahsi

 

[lanakau888]

Actually in the data book kakashi's foot speed is 4.5/5 same as sasuke. Itachi is 5/5 and if you watched the itachi vs sasuke fight, not only was he able to avoid all sasuke's kunai assualt he was able to create another clone, which then dispersed into a clock of crows coming sasuke's way. Also he blitz fast sasuke before he kicked him and used tsukuyomi. This is the itachi before he used the ms.

MS doesn't increase someone's speed. And sasuke was keeping up with itachi just fine. If anything sasuke held the speed advantage since he was able to not only dodge itachi's eyesight for some time, and was the only one of the two who got comments about his speed from zetsu. As for itachi's amazing signweaving speed:

Spoiler

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Its not that impressive anymore.

There is no way in hell kakashi is winning. Also you say kakashi has the sharigan therefore genjutsu wouldnt affect him. Sasuke has more mastery of the sharigan not only because he is an uchiha, but also he supressed the fox's power with it, something kakashi cannot do. Even tobi commented on his use of the sharigan against deidora and not even this sasuke could dispell itachi's genjutsu, not to forget sasuke is also a genjutsu specialist.

Even with ms, itachi takes this. Even say pre ms sasuke would beat kakashi

In their first battle it was made clear that itachi needed to use MS genjutsu to beat kakashi since kakashi could counter all the other forms. In Sasuke's genjutsu battle with itachi, he countered all of itachi's genjutsu easily until itachi used tsukuyomi. Kakashi, posessing the MS will counter all of itachi's non-MS genjutsu easily.

Therefore itachi will have to fight kakashi without genjutsu, and kakashi has speed on itachi's level, plus much more damaging and a wider array of techniques. Kakashi wins.

 

[Blaze Release]

MS doesn't increase someone's speed. And sasuke was keeping up with itachi just fine. If anything sasuke held the speed advantage since he was able to not only dodge itachi's eyesight for some time, and was the only one of the two who got comments about his speed from zetsu. As for itachi's amazing signweaving speed:

Spoiler

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Its not that impressive anymore.

In their first battle it was made clear that itachi needed to use MS genjutsu to beat kakashi since kakashi could counter all the other forms. In Sasuke's genjutsu battle with itachi, he countered all of itachi's genjutsu easily until itachi used tsukuyomi. Kakashi, posessing the MS will counter all of itachi's non-MS genjutsu easily.

Therefore itachi will have to fight kakashi without genjutsu, and kakashi has speed on itachi's level, plus much more damaging and a wider array of techniques. Kakashi wins.

I never said, ms increases your speed. Its already in the data book that itachi is faster than kakashi and sasuke. Also by sharigan itachi i assume he means an healthy itachi with the sharigan since its the ms that not only damaged his eye sight, but also his health.. Also sasuke was able to counter itachi's genjutsu because he is also a genjutsu user, but not even him was able to stop itachi's constantly dispersing into crows

In their first battle, it wasnt made clear that itachi needed ms genjutsu to beat kakashi. What are you talking about. Lol at kakashi possesing the ms will counter all of itachi's non ms genjutsu easily. not only is that an absurd statement, i doubt kakashi would have his ms on constantly forgetting that the sharigan alone takes a toll on him.

Anyway difference in opinon. What i will say though is that pre ms sasuke will beat kakashi

 

[The Eye]

Keep your silly insults to yourself if you have nothing better to say :flaw:

im just stating facts, there is no way itachi can win this fight. lolz

 

[Blaze Release]

im just stating facts, there is no way itachi can win this fight. lolz

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but when you start trash talking over the net, using petty insults you just look weak and pathetic.

Anyway i believe pre ms sasuke can win this fight aswell

 

[lanakau888]

I never said, ms increases your speed. Its already in the data book that itachi is faster than kakashi and sasuke. Also by sharigan itachi i assume he means an healthy itachi with the sharigan since its the ms that not only damaged his eye sight, but also his health.. Also sasuke was able to counter itachi's genjutsu because he is also a genjutsu user, but not even him was able to stop itachi's constantly dispersing into crows

Kakashi is also a genjutsu user, he takes out two anbu with just one genjutsu no diff. By feats, he is more skilled than sasuke in genjutsu. And once again I reference the reason why itachi used MS on kakashi, despite it draining the hell out of itachi's chakra. I also will reference the fact that after part 2, kakashi is prepared for itachi's MS genjutsu

In their first battle, it wasnt made clear that itachi needed ms genjutsu to beat kakashi. What are you talking about. Lol at kakashi possesing the ms will counter all of itachi's non ms genjutsu easily. not only is that an absurd statement, i doubt kakashi would have his ms own.

Basically, the only way that you are saying itachi wins this fight is with non-MS genjutsu, somethig that won't work on kakashi since #1 kakashi has trained through the timeskip to counter even itachi's MS genjutsu, and 2, we've seen sasuke with just a three-tomoe easily counter any and all of itachis non-ms genjutsu.

Anyway difference in opinon. What i will say though is that pre ms sasuke will beat kakashi

Of course pre ms sasuke beats kakashi, pre ms sasuke beats BASE Itachi as well, which is why itachi had to constantly use the MS in the fight. Base itachi was getting thrashed by pre ms sasuke.

So conclusion: Kakashi wins since the entire hopes of your argument is banked on itachi winning via genjutsu which he will not since he not only has a lesser eye than kakashi, but kakashi has trained to counter itachi's MS genjutsu from their first confrontation.

 

[Blaze Release]

Kakashi is also a genjutsu user, he takes out two anbu with just one genjutsu no diff. By feats, he is more skilled than sasuke in genjutsu. And once again I reference the reason why itachi used MS on kakashi, despite it draining the hell out of itachi's chakra. I also will reference the fact that after part 2, kakashi is prepared for itachi's MS genjutsu



Basically, the only way that you are saying itachi wins this fight is with non-MS genjutsu, somethig that won't work on kakashi since #1 kakashi has trained through the timeskip to counter even itachi's MS genjutsu, and 2, we've seen sasuke with just a three-tomoe easily counter any and all of itachis non-ms genjutsu.



Of course pre ms sasuke beats kakashi, pre ms sasuke beats BASE Itachi as well, which is why itachi had to constantly use the MS in the fight. Base itachi was getting thrashed by pre ms sasuke.

So conclusion: Kakashi wins since the entire hopes of your argument is banked on itachi winning via genjutsu which he will not since he not only has a lesser eye than kakashi, but kakashi has trained to counter itachi's MS genjutsu from their first confrontation.

Lol at by feats kakashi is more skilled at genjutsu than sasuke. The same person who used genjutsu on deidroa, manda, bee, C, danzou. No way in hell has kakashi got more genjutsu feats than sasuke. And as i said, even though sasuke was able to keep up, he still couldnt stop him forming crows.

Anyway as we say even before itachi activated his ms, he was owning kakashi in series 1. His 30% clone was enough to delay all 4 of them, not to forget this clone didnt have enough chakra to use ms. Again before itachi activated the ms, although sasuke kept up with him he still managed to disperse then attack him, before using tsukuyomi and this is itachi before ms. This is the sasuke that will beat kakashi. He also beat oro without ms. Same with deidora

Anyway even without ms, his taijutsu, genjutsu, speed, hand seals is superior to kakashi's apart from taijustu which both gets 4.5/5. Thats enough to beat kakashi.

Also off topic lets stop this non sense about kakashi being able to counter itachis ms genjutsu, i presume you mean tsukuyomi. The only way he is countering it and he acknowledged this by not looking into his eyes, he also told chiyo, sakura and naruto the same thing. Infact there was a flashback of what gai told him about this strategy. If itachi used tsukuyomi on kakashi he would fill the full force of it, he might have mastery of the sharigan but he isnt an uchiha

 

[lanakau888]

Lol at by feats kakashi is more skilled at genjutsu than sasuke. The same person who used genjutsu on deidroa, manda, bee, C, danzou. No way in hell has kakashi got more genjutsu feats than sasuke. And as i said, even though sasuke was able to keep up, he still couldnt stop him forming crows.

Sasuke used MS genjutsu on those guys while kakashi's most powerful genjutsu was three tomoe, and it didn't just incap the guys like it did to C, but it knocked two of them out at once.

Anyway as we say even before itachi activated his ms, he was owning kakashi in series 1. His 30% clone was enough to delay all 4 of them, not to forget this clone didnt have enough chakra to use ms.

How was he owning kakashi before he activated MS? The only time he "owned" kakashi was because he saved kurenai from the exploding clone. In the 30% clone battle, how did he stall them? By casting genjutsu on naruto. When the battle became a battle of ninjutsu, he was swiftly outsmarted and beaten.

Again before itachi activated the ms, although sasuke kept up with him he still managed to disperse then attack him, before using tsukuyomi and this is itachi before ms. This is the sasuke that will beat kakashi. He also beat oro without ms. Same with deidora

He disperses in order to catch sasuke in tsukuyomi. All the attack he did after that point including slamming sasuke against the wall, or kicking him were all in the genjutsu. Besides the times where itachi used MS techs, sasuke was owning itachi when he only had his three tomoe out.

He beat oro with a paralyzing genjutsu, and that was oro staring directly into his eyes. Kakashi can see through non-MS genjutsu, he has trained to combat itachi over the timeskip and has the MS, which according to itachi, makes kakashi superior to him since kakashi has the greater eyes.

Anyway even without ms, his taijutsu, genjutsu, speed, hand seals is superior to kakashi's apart from taijustu which both gets 4.5/5. Thats enough to beat kakashi

Going completely by the databook now? Speed is roughly equal, handseals are nothing special now that everyone has caught up, genjutsu is broken due to kakashi's mastery over sharingan and having the better eye, kakashi has way more powerful ninjutsu, has more chakra reserves (by databook) than itachi, and has cannonically outsmarted itachi in battle.

Kakashi wins.

 

[Blaze Release]

Also lol at base itachi was getting trashed by sasuke.
Sure sasuke kept up with the genjutsu duel, but base itachi who was sick and didnt want to win the fight still countered every since kunai of his, whilst forming clones. Also you realise that its base itachi that kicked pre ms sasuke, before he used tsukuyomi.

As its been said, if itachi was serious, even if he was ill i believe he wouldve ended the battle pretty quickly, even with activating the ms

 

[lanakau888]

Also lol at base itachi was getting trashed by sasuke.
Sure sasuke kept up with the genjutsu duel, but base itachi who was sick and didnt want to win the fight still countered every since kunai of his, whilst forming clones. Also you realise that its base itachi that kicked pre ms sasuke, before he used tsukuyomi.

proof he kicked him before tsukuyomi was used?

As its been said, if itachi was serious, even if he was ill i believe he wouldve ended the battle pretty quickly, even with activating the ms

no he said if itachi was serious sasuke would have lost. There is nothing about him not even using MS. I know the exact scan you are referring to, please don't change around Tobi's words.

 

[Blaze Release]

Sasuke used MS genjutsu on those guys while kakashi's most powerful genjutsu was three tomoe, and it didn't just incap the guys like it did to C, but it knocked two of them out at once.


How was he owning kakashi before he activated MS? The only time he "owned" kakashi was because he saved kurenai from the exploding clone. In the 30% clone battle, how did he stall them? By casting genjutsu on naruto. When the battle became a battle of ninjutsu, he was swiftly outsmarted and beaten.


He disperses in order to catch sasuke in tsukuyomi. All the attack he did after that point including slamming sasuke against the wall, or kicking him were all in the genjutsu. Besides the times where itachi used MS techs, sasuke was owning itachi when he only had his three tomoe out.

He beat oro with a paralyzing genjutsu, and that was oro staring directly into his eyes. Kakashi can see through non-MS genjutsu, he has trained to combat itachi over the timeskip and has the MS, which according to itachi, makes kakashi superior to him since kakashi has the greater eyes.


Going completely by the databook now? Speed is roughly equal, handseals are nothing special now that everyone has caught up, genjutsu is broken due to kakashi's mastery over sharingan and having the better eye, kakashi has way more powerful ninjutsu, has more chakra reserves (by databook) than itachi, and has cannonically outsmarted itachi in battle.

Kakashi wins.

Youve come up with some crazy statement in the past but if you believe kakashi has more genjutsu feats than sasuke then maybe i should completely stop this discussion with you. Again a 30%, itachi clone stalled all 4 of them, enough and its when the his 30% chakra run out were they able to kill the clone. Also im not talking about that genjutsu fight, during their kunai's battle he was able to create a clone, which then dispersed and kicked sasuke. That wasnt genjutsu that was reality, it was then did itachi use tsukuyomi.

Btw oro didnt stare into his eyes and its weve seen pointing of a finger is enough to put anybody in a genjutsu. Even bee a jinchircki was put in genjutsu. You keep on saying kakashi has trained to counter itachi's genjutsu, thats because he has most likely copied what gai said about countering genjutsu but as weve seen with itachi he doesnt need eye contact to get you in a genjutsu.

Speed isnt equal, there is a big difference between 4.5 and 5. Also you claim kakashi has way more powerful techs, its true that apart from the water tech we havent seen any other ordinary ninjutsu's from itachi. You can speculate that he has other techs, but usually genjutsu is enough to beat his opponents. Ask deidora, oro, kakashi. If you add his speed and taijutsu along with his genjutsu, intelligence and hand speed, he still stomps kakashi whatever way you look at it.

Even without ms the only thing kakashi has over itachis is chakra resevers and as i said since the op said sharigan itachi i presume its healthy itachi since its the ms that caused his blindness and sickness

 

[Blaze Release]

proof he kicked him before tsukuyomi was used?


no he said if itachi was serious sasuke would have lost. There is nothing about him not even using MS. I know the exact scan you are referring to, please don't change around Tobi's words.

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Anyway even without ms, if itachi was serious he wouldve won

 

[Blaze Release]

Sorry for all the link. This is the link i wanted to show you.
He dispersed into crows, activated his ms ready to use tsukuyomi then kicked sasuke against the wall

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[lanakau888]

Youve come up with some crazy statement in the past but if you believe kakashi has more genjutsu feats than sasuke then maybe i should completely stop this discussion with you. Again a 30%, itachi clone stalled all 4 of them, enough and its when the his 30% chakra run out were they able to kill the clone. Also im not talking about that genjutsu fight, during their kunai's battle he was able to create a clone, which then dispersed and kicked sasuke. That wasnt genjutsu that was reality, it was then did itachi use tsukuyomi.

Give me proof of the whole kick thing. Post a scan. I've noticed in our debates that I'm the one who always posts scans.

Btw oro didnt stare into his eyes and its weve seen pointing of a finger is enough to put anybody in a genjutsu. Even bee a jinchircki was put in genjutsu. You keep on saying kakashi has trained to counter itachi's genjutsu, thats because he has most likely copied what gai said about countering genjutsu but as weve seen with itachi he doesnt need eye contact to get you in a genjutsu.

It was shown in the page where the genjutsu was cast, orochimaru and itachi's eyes receive their own panels before the genjutsu was cast, which therefore means that the genjutsu was eye genjutsu. Next, sharingan can see through genjutsu meaning, the non-ms genjutsu will not work, especially weak finger genjutsu.

Speed isnt equal, there is a big difference between 4.5 and 5. Also you claim kakashi has way more powerful techs, its true that apart from the water tech we havent seen any other ordinary ninjutsu's from itachi. You can speculate that he has other techs, but usually genjutsu is enough to beat his opponents. Ask deidora, oro, kakashi. If you add his speed and taijutsu along with his genjutsu, intelligence and hand speed, he still stomps kakashi whatever way you look at it.

His shown speed isn't above sasukes, he gets outsmarted by kakashi, he gets outgunned by kakashi, his handspeed isn't great anymore, and kakashi has kamui.

Even without ms the only thing kakashi has over itachis is chakra resevers and as i said since the op said sharigan itachi i presume its healthy itachi since its the ms that caused his blindness and sickness

The fact is that all of their base stats are roughly the same, exept kakashi has kamui and a hell lot more powerful jutsus that itachi. And once again non-MS genjutsu isn't working on a person with the sharingan.

Our arguments are getting circular. We should end it soon unless either of us have something new to say.

 

[lanakau888]

Sorry for all the link. This is the link i wanted to show you.
He dispersed into crows, activated his ms ready to use tsukuyomi then kicked sasuke against the wall

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Here is why I say him kicking sasuke into the wall is tsukuyomi:

Spoiler

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Look at where sasuke and itachi are when sasuke breaks tsukuyomi. Not standing next to the wall, but where they were when itachi used the crows. So if sasuke was kicked, they would be next to the wall, and there would be the cracks in the wall from the kick, but this isn't apparent in the scans.

 

[Blaze Release]

Give me proof of the whole kick thing. Post a scan. I've noticed in our debates that I'm the one who always posts scans.


It was shown in the page where the genjutsu was cast, orochimaru and itachi's eyes receive their own panels before the genjutsu was cast, which therefore means that the genjutsu was eye genjutsu. Next, sharingan can see through genjutsu meaning, the non-ms genjutsu will not work, especially weak finger genjutsu.


His shown speed isn't above sasukes, he gets outsmarted by kakashi, he gets outgunned by kakashi, his handspeed isn't great anymore, and kakashi has kamui.


The fact is that all of their base stats are roughly the same, exept kakashi has kamui and a hell lot more powerful jutsus that itachi. And once again non-MS genjutsu isn't working on a person with the sharingan.

Our arguments are getting circular. We should end it soon unless either of us have something new to say.

Lets just end it, you keep on dismissing his hand and foot speed yet he blitz sasuke but also his hand speed was so fast that not only did kakashi and kurenai note this, also the fact that he was able to counter every last one of sasuke's shurikens whilst forming seals to create a clone alone should tell you about his hand speed.

Ive already showed you that you can have the sharigan and still get put in a genjutsu. Sasuke and itachi had a genjutsu battle. Infact kurenai put itachi in a genjutsu although obviously her's isnt on itachi's level. Also even before the sasuke vs itachi fight, when itachi told him to come to the uchiha hideout alone, he already had sasuke in a genjutsu. Again even in the fight, he was still able to use genjutsu to disperse in crows at will.

As ive proven to you non ms genjutsu still works on a sharigan user

 

[Blaze Release]

Here is why I say him kicking sasuke into the wall is tsukuyomi:

Spoiler

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Look at where sasuke and itachi are when sasuke breaks tsukuyomi. Not standing next to the wall, but where they were when itachi used the crows. So if sasuke was kicked, they would be next to the wall, and there would be the cracks in the wall from the kick, but this isn't apparent in the scans.

Nice catch. So basically itachi didnt kick him then. Basically after he turned into crows, he then activated the ms, had eye contact with sasuke and once he had him in tsukuyomi he kicked him in this genjutsu. Nice catch.

But my point still stands that in that situation when he dispersed and was coming at sasuke he could've kicked him, but instead activated the ms

 

[Owarij]

Lets not forget itachi still has yata mirror and totsuka sword, small versions, and that he's faster than kakashi.....a simple paralysis genjutsu and stab of sword and the fight is over

 

[fastrthnwind]

Lets not forget itachi still has yata mirror and totsuka sword, small versions, and that he's faster than kakashi.....a simple paralysis genjutsu and stab of sword and the fight is over

itachi doesn't have those items as they are only used when he uses susanoo and therefore considered MS items.