hiruzen sarutobi vs minato namikize

[Itachi Namikaze]

We've only seen 2 of his elements, kakashi said most jounins know 2... Hashirama Knew 3, oonoki 4...It's obvious skilled ninja/kage can go up to 3-4, And also that could have been more than enough, as i said konoha was small and just formedl, most uchiha know only fire, Other ninjas don't even have/use elements(akimichi etc) ...., so exclude ninjas with that, Hiruzen has shown fire and earth.... So he just about covered all the techs uchiha would use...It boils down to a simple matter of kishi showing us what else he can do....

So yea. this entire argument was made from itachi namikaze's post about what?
Hypebole statements in the manga, and you are yet to show me one..

Contradictions in the manga. And that is one but you fail to admit it. You have completely disregarded the Uchiha and the sharingan.

 

[Owarij]

Well first off I don't think Sarutobi is a clan, and the Uchiha are a clan known for KG. SO anything using the sharingan is not able to be used by Hiruzen.

Let me see here. He isn't able to use any sharingan jutsus like the genjutsu that all sharingan users are capable of. Nor is he able to use anything which Madara was able to do. Who was still alive at that point, and helped found Konoha, although he had defected.

But anyway let me get this straight. You think that when Hiruzen became Hokage there were only four clans and that Hiruzen knew all of their special abilities, including being able to use the sharingan. Well alrighty then, you've got me sir. I mean I don't know how we all missed it before, Sarutobi is actually just a pseudonym for Uchiha-Akimichi-Senju-Sarutobi. My bad props to you for figuring out that Hiruzen was actually descended from every single clan and is the ultimate lord of the Naruto universe.

Are you dense? Sharingan isn't a jutsu.. .You can't learn sharingan.. it's a bloodline limit... You are born with it... Justs every sharingan user is capable of? what are you talking about... there is no jutsu every sharingan user is capable of,There is Tsukyomi, and thats a mangekyou sharingan jutsu... Once again not in the time that he was appointed Professor...

Why am i arguing with a man who doesn't know the difference between Bloodline limit and Jutsu?

And yes i am saying konoha was small and had 4 clans..
Did you not hear Tobi say Uchiha and senju founded konoha? That means 2CLANS started konoha... more and more clans joined in afterwards....

Contradictions in the manga. And that is one but you fail to admit it. You have completely disregarded the Uchiha and the sharingan.

Contradictions? what contradiction.... THE SHARINGAN ISN'T A JUTSU

Kekke genkai aka Bloodline limit-abilities passed down genetically in specific clans
Sharingan is even further down that bracket and is a Doujutsu..:are genetic ninja abilities that utilise the eyes, granting the wielder ocular abilities ...You can't learn or cast genetic abilities,

 

[TheLaw]

We've only seen 2 of his elements, kakashi said most jounins know 2... Hashirama Knew 3, oonoki 4...It's obvious skilled ninja/kage can go up to 3-4, And also that could have been more than enough, as i said konoha was small and just formedl, most uchiha know only fire, Other ninjas don't even have/use elements(akimichi etc) ...., so exclude ninjas with that, Hiruzen has shown fire and earth.... So he just about covered all the techs uchiha would use...It boils down to a simple matter of kishi showing us what else he can do....

So yea. this entire argument was made from itachi namikaze's post about what?
Hypebole statements in the manga, and you are yet to show me one..

Only rinnegan is known for using all 5, there should be a special mention if someone was so skilled he could use all 5 of em. Like Oonoki has Dust he´s very special for that reason, im sure it would be mentioned if Hiruzen could use even 4 and thats not enough for all techs, im sure there was every element user even at that time.

 

[Owarij]

Only rinnegan is known for using all 5, there should be a special mention if someone was so skilled he could use all 5 of em. Like Oonoki has Dust he´s very special for that reason, im sure it would be mentioned if Hiruzen could use even 4 and thats not enough for all techs, im sure there was every element user even at that time.

urm it was mentioned that he could use all konoha techniques at the time by orochimaru....So that was his mention about being special.. Plus the whole god of shinobi ,strongest kage etc So obviously he was a special genius......

 

[Reborn]

Are you dense? Sharingan isn't a jutsu.. .You can't learn sharingan.. it's a bloodline limit... You are born with it... Justs every sharingan user is capable of? what are you talking about... there is no jutsu every sharingan user is capable of,There is Tsukyomi, and thats a mangekyou sharingan jutsu... Once again not in the time that he was appointed Professor...

Why am i arguing with a man who doesn't know the difference between Bloodline limit and Jutsu?

And yes i am saying konoha was small and had 4 clans..
Did you not hear Tobi say Uchiha and senju founded konoha? That means 2CLANS started konoha... more and more clans joined in afterwards....




Contradictions? what contradiction.... THE SHARINGAN ISN'T A JUTSU

Kekke genkai aka Bloodline limit-abilities passed down genetically in specific clans
Sharingan is even further down that bracket and is a Doujutsu..:are genetic ninja abilities that utilise the eyes, granting the wielder ocular abilities ...You can't learn or cast genetic abilities,

Jutsu

Dojutsu You said Sharingan wasn't a Jutsu, but then you call it Dojutsu, which is a jutsu...

I'm just saying re-phrase that...continue your argument.

 

[Owarij]

Jutsu

Dojutsu You said Sharingan wasn't a Jutsu, but then you call it Dojutsu, which is a jutsu...

I'm just saying re-phrase that...continue your argument.

Jutsu- Molding chakra to create techniques...
Sharingan isn't a jutsu

IT'S a generic ability passed down through blood

Heres a wika statement to clarifiy

There are three basic types of techniques: ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu. Subcategories exist, including fūinjutsu, juinjutsu and senjutsu. There are also kekkei genkai abilities which aren't techniques, but inherited abilities passed down through certain clans ​

 

[TheLaw]

urm it was mentioned that he could use all konoha techniques at the time by orochimaru....So that was his mention about being special.. Plus the whole god of shinobi ,strongest kage etc So obviously he was a special genius......

Indeed he was praised but maybe praised abit too much? I dont think you believe he really can use all five elements and it wasnt even mentioned? He would be the first person to do so, without rinnegan.

 

[Owarij]

Indeed he was praised but maybe praised abit too much? I dont think you believe he really can use all five elements and it wasnt even mentioned? He would be the first person to do so, without rinnegan.

I never said he could use 5 elements... i said he could use all the elements that existed in konoha at the time... It had just formed....I Would like to say he could use 4.....excluding wind

 

[Itachi Namikaze]

Are you dense? Sharingan isn't a jutsu.. .You can't learn sharingan.. it's a bloodline limit... You are born with it... Justs every sharingan user is capable of? what are you talking about... there is no jutsu every sharingan user is capable of,There is Tsukyomi, and thats a mangekyou sharingan jutsu... Once again not in the time that he was appointed Professor...

Why am i arguing with a man who doesn't know the difference between Bloodline limit and Jutsu?

And yes i am saying konoha was small and had 4 clans..
Did you not hear Tobi say Uchiha and senju founded konoha? That means 2CLANS started konoha... more and more clans joined in afterwards....




Contradictions? what contradiction.... THE SHARINGAN ISN'T A JUTSU

Kekke genkai aka Bloodline limit-abilities passed down genetically in specific clans
Sharingan is even further down that bracket and is a Doujutsu..:are genetic ninja abilities that utilise the eyes, granting the wielder ocular abilities ...You can't learn or cast genetic abilities,

Granting the wielder abilities. Well now, if Hiruzen couldn't use the abilities given to Uchihas by the sharingan then he couldn't do ever jutsu could he? The sharingan is capable of casting genjutsu. Even a regular tomoe sharingan can. Go back and reread the kakashi vs. Zabuza fight if you don't believe me.

Although you will likely just say that my facts are wrong and that I am wrong, although you claim something with no proof and no logic. You have nothing to back up your statement. Literally nothing other than some stupid guess that is as wrong as wrong can be.

 

[Reborn]

Jutsu- Molding chakra to create techniques...
Sharingan isn't a jutsu

IT'S a generic ability passed down through blood

Heres a wika statement to clarifiy

There are three basic types of techniques: ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu. Subcategories exist, including fūinjutsu, juinjutsu and senjutsu. There are also kekkei genkai abilities which aren't techniques, but inherited abilities passed down through certain clans ​

Jutsu-Art; Means

The actual translation for jutsu is Art means. In the Narutoverse, it translates into art or technique Ninjutsu (ninja arts/techniques) Genjutsu (illusion arts/techniques).

That is why when asked to teach ninjutsu, it's a broad statement becasue Ninjutsu means ninja/shinobi arts. When Yahiko asked Jiraiya to train him in ninjutsu he meant shinobi arts in general, which meant the category of Ninjutsu we generally think of, genjutsu, and taijutsu and whatever else. That's besides the point

Dojutsu-eye techniques or eye arts. The Wiki even classes the Sharingan as "Dojutsu" as eye arts or eye techniques as the general category.

Regardless, using Sharingan does utilize chakra for both Uchiha and non-uchiha, this has been stated. Besides there are actual dojutsu (eye techniques) to go along with the Sharingan (see Wiki and look back on the manga). Meaning techniques like Susanoo, Amaterasu, Shakeling Stakes, are actual "Jutsu" as well.

 

[Owarij]

Granting the wielder abilities. Well now, if Hiruzen couldn't use the abilities given to Uchihas by the sharingan then he couldn't do ever jutsu could he? The sharingan is capable of casting genjutsu. Even a regular tomoe sharingan can. Go back and reread the kakashi vs. Zabuza fight if you don't believe me.

Although you will likely just say that my facts are wrong and that I am wrong, although you claim something with no proof and no logic. You have nothing to back up your statement. Literally nothing other than some stupid guess that is as wrong as wrong can be.

Holy crapemole -_-

Spoiler

capable of casting genjutsu. Even a regular tomoe sharingan can

Do you realize all the sharingan lets you do is cast genjutsu through eye contact?

Other ninja like kurenai use handseals.. like any other jutsu....
Other ninja can use the same genjutsu just with handseals....

All you have to do is look at the person, and you can affect them with your genjutsu...

The genjutsu specific to sharingan = Mangekyou sharingan genjutsu..
Kotoamatsuki , Tsukyomi, Izanagi

Spoiler

Jutsu-Art; Means

The actual translation for jutsu is Art means. In the Narutoverse, it translates into art or technique Ninjutsu (ninja arts/techniques) Genjutsu (illusion arts/techniques).

That is why when asked to teach ninjutsu, it's a broad statement becasue Ninjutsu means ninja/shinobi arts. When Yahiko asked Jiraiya to train him in ninjutsu he meant shinobi arts in general, which meant the category of Ninjutsu we generally think of, genjutsu, and taijutsu and whatever else. That's besides the point

Dojutsu-eye techniques or eye arts. The Wiki even classes the Sharingan as "Dojutsu" as eye arts or eye techniques as the general category.

Regardless, using Sharingan does utilize chakra for both Uchiha and non-uchiha, this has been stated. Besides there are actual dojutsu (eye techniques) to go along with the Sharingan (see Wiki and look back on the manga). Meaning techniques like Susano

Yes there are jutsu the sharingan can cast, yes they require chakra, I admitted there are mangekyou sharingan abilities, Jutsu and doujutsu tbh should not be classed together... Its a eye that you inherit from birth...It runs in your blood, BUT there are jutsu that can be uses from kekke genkai..

For eg,
Kimmiamaro was born with strong bones, etc

He can then cast jutsu with his kekke genkai- Like -Ten-Finger Drilling Bullets where he shoots his bones out as bullets.... His bone condition isn't the jutsu... The thing he casts is

Sharingan isn't a jutsu... The abilities it casts are - (susanno,tsukyomi,amaterasu etc)

Thats what i'm trying to say

 

[Better]

My man owarij always argues a good point

 

[Itachi Namikaze]

I never said he could use 5 elements... i said he could use all the elements that existed in konoha at the time... It had just formed....I Would like to say he could use 4.....excluding wind

Also let me see here. Hiruzen has earht and fire elements. Tobirama had water element. That gets you right there.

But wait you are claiming at the point Tobirama died, because those techniques stop existing right then.

What element did Danzo have? Not including the mokuton of course. What element was that again? Wind? Oh you are right it was wind. So Danzo, who was alive when Hiruzen was alive and in Konoha that whole time had wind element which Hiruzen did not have. Thus proving you wrong again.

Though you will likely say something like, "Danzo didn't have wind jutsu then, and no one else in the village had any elements other than fire and earth"

Even though there must have been water users as well since the water affinity runs in Senju blood since Hashirama got mokuton, which is just an affinity for water and earth.

But you are trying to make the most obscure random scenario ever so that you are right. Why don't you admit it. No one else is standing with you. You are wrong. No one agrees with you. The manga disagrees with you. Kishi disagrees with you. Just give up. You have nothing here.

 

[TheLaw]

I never said he could use 5 elements... i said he could use all the elements that existed in konoha at the time... It had just formed....I Would like to say he could use 4.....excluding wind

And there wasnt any wind users at that time? its impossible, even danzo uses wind.

 

[Itachi Namikaze]

My man owarij always argues a good point

Are you kidding right now? His point is terrible and he makes no sense. If you agree with him then you must be as retarded as him.

Do you even know what he is claiming?

That in Konoha when Hiruzen was made Hokage, that there were only 4 clans, and that Hiruzen can do the Akimichi clans expansion jutsus and butterfly mode, and that the sharingan cannot perform genjutsu or that it doesn't count as a jutsu, and that of the entire village no one could use any elements other than earth and fire. And that any jutsu that had previously been used by any dead ninja does not count and is forever lost to Konoha.

 

[TheLaw]

Also let me see here. Hiruzen has earht and fire elements. Tobirama had water element. That gets you right there.

But wait you are claiming at the point Tobirama died, because those techniques stop existing right then.

What element did Danzo have? Not including the mokuton of course. What element was that again? Wind? Oh you are right it was wind. So Danzo, who was alive when Hiruzen was alive and in Konoha that whole time had wind element which Hiruzen did not have. Thus proving you wrong again.

Though you will likely say something like, "Danzo didn't have wind jutsu then, and no one else in the village had any elements other than fire and earth"

Even though there must have been water users as well since the water affinity runs in Senju blood since Hashirama got mokuton, which is just an affinity for water and earth.

But you are trying to make the most obscure random scenario ever so that you are right. Why don't you admit it. No one else is standing with you. You are wrong. No one agrees with you. The manga disagrees with you. Kishi disagrees with you. Just give up. You have nothing here.

Oh u were faster, and mentioned abit more than me =)

 

[Fnatic]

i know that it's true that it was said in the anime and manga that sarutobi was called the "god of shinobi" in his prime.. however I don't think that he is really that strong during his prime... he may be called such because at such time, there were no strong ninjas yet.. (compared to how strong ninjas are now)..... Moreover, the number of jutsu you know is not the measure of how strong you are but it is on how you utilize them....

 

[Owarij]

And there wasnt any wind users at that time? its impossible, even danzo uses wind.

wind is a rarity among the five chakra natures that much was already stated... it's rare for shinobi to get that when compared to the other chakra natures...

Also let me see here. Hiruzen has earht and fire elements. Tobirama had water element. That gets you right there.

But wait you are claiming at the point Tobirama died, because those techniques stop existing right then.

What element did Danzo have? Not including the mokuton of course. What element was that again? Wind? Oh you are right it was wind. So Danzo, who was alive when Hiruzen was alive and in Konoha that whole time had wind element which Hiruzen did not have. Thus proving you wrong again.

Though you will likely say something like, "Danzo didn't have wind jutsu then, and no one else in the village had any elements other than fire and earth"

Even though there must have been water users as well since the water affinity runs in Senju blood since Hashirama got mokuton, which is just an affinity for water and earth.

But you are trying to make the most obscure random scenario ever so that you are right. Why don't you admit it. No one else is standing with you. You are wrong. No one agrees with you. The manga disagrees with you. Kishi disagrees with you. Just give up. You have nothing here.

]Dude did you not hear me say all that was shown by Hiruzen was 2 elements? He used fire for a attack, then when tobirama used a water jutsu he used it's weakness earth... That's all he got to do....

And danzo and his team were like 15-16 when they he was appointed hokage...
Look at the current 15-16 year olds team 11,.... excluding sasuke and naruto.( because they are op,) Have you seen any elements from them? No.. why would danzo have his element at that time then? when it's shown that at that age they don't get one yet...

 

[ItachiTAS]

Why this arguing and rearguing?let's FIGHT!visit the link i give below and refer to the main section.then take hiruzen or any other member(s) in your team and start the battle!i and my friends are eager to FIGHT ANY NEWCOMER.you can even battle amongst yourselves if you like!

You must be registered for see links

GET HOOKED!

 

[Itachi Namikaze]

wind is a rarity among the five chakra natures that much was already stated... it's rare for shinobi to get that when compared to the other chakra natures...

Danzo had wind element. Hiruzen did not. How many times must we prove you wrong?