[Predictions] Naruto Manga Chapter 521 Discussion and 522 Predictions
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I read this off another site very well thought out theory
I have developped a theory based on some of the facts that we can see in the manga. This theory was created to try to find the true identity of Tobi and to understand many concepts that have yet to be explained in the manga. Here we go.
1. What is Tobi?
I believe that Tobi is not the real Madara Uchiha. I think that the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju, created a clone of Madara using the cells found on his brother's blade. There should have been plenty of DNA found on the blade in order to create a clone.
2. Who is that clone?
That clone is none other than Kagami Uchiha, created about 70 years ago. We have never heard of Kagami besides in Danzo's flashback and it is still unknown if he is dead or not. Also, Kagami in japanese means ''Mirror'', which could relate to the fact that he is a pure reflection of how Madara Uchiha was,personality, included.
3. Cloning? Does that even exist in Naruto?
Of course it does. Something tells me that Orochimaru, who really loved doing experiments, was a real fan of the Second Hokage, who also was a person who loved doing experiments. We know that Orochimaru has perfected one of the technique created by the Second Hokage, known as Edo Tensei, and perhaps he also mastered something else created by Tobirama, and that's how he managed to make a clone of the First Hokage, known as Yamato.
4. Why did Orochimaru know so much about Madara?
Since Orochimaru wanted to learn so much about everything, I am pretty sure he somehow managed to gain access to archives of the Second Hokage's experiments, which of course included all the details about the clone of Madara Uchiha, Kagami. That's the reason why he knew so much and that's why we keep hearing his name from Madara's mouth.
5. The relation between Madara and Danzo
If we go back to the fight between Sasuke and Danzo, we can see Madara narrating what's happening during the whole fight. I find the way he talks about Danzo somehow as if he knew him a lot. Of course he would, since he was in his ninja team for several years and they have known each other since childhood. Danzo also seems to know Madara a lot, as if they were once friends. Danzo never revealed anything about Madara since they have made a pact the night of the Uchiha Clan massacre.
6. Did Uchiha Kagami have a family?
Compare Kagami wtih Shisui at about the same age.
Kagami:
I think that they really look alike, so my guess is that Shisui is Kagami's son.
7. Danzo-Madara-Itachi : The Three way pact - Uchiha Clan's Massacre
We all know that there was a meeting between these 3 guys before the Uchiha Massacre.
Pact Madara => Danzo :
- Gift of one of the most powerful sharingan, the one of Uchiha Shisui, his own son, and some other sharingans.
Pact Danzo => Madara:
- All of the other sharingans on the Uchiha corpses.
- Keeping the secret about the truth behind Kagami.
Pact Madara => Itachi:
- Prohibition of attacking Konoha
Pact Itachi => Madara:
- Never revealing the truth about him
- Work for him in his own organisation, Akatsuki
Pact Danzo => Itachi:
- Safety of his fellow brother, Uchiha Sasuke
Pact Itachi => Danzo:
- Doing the dirty job of killing all remaining Uchiha.
8. ''Madara is just a former shell of himself.''
Itachi said to Sasuke when they fought for the last time that Madara was a former shell of himself.
Being killed by the First Hokage and being the clone of the real Madara, Kagami can be considered weaker. I do believe that the Mangekyo Sharingan and the EMS are not genetic traits, but rather signs of one's accomplishments in his life. That is the reason why we only see a normal three tomoe sharingan from Madara's mask, it is because he does NOT have EMS anymore, only a normal sharingan. Also, the things that Itachi didn,t know about Madara and that would have made Madara dead by now are simply the knowledge behind Madara's powers (Space-Time jutsu, unsolidifying, etc.).
9. The Rinnegan.
The Rinnegan came from the legendary Sage of the Six Paths. When he was about to die, he gave some of his powers to his two sons. The elder one recieved the power of the eyes and the youngest one recieved the power of the body. It was the youngest one that was proclaimed to be the chief one. I don't think he would have let a power such as the Rinnegan just die with his father. He probably took them off and put them in a jar, like we have seen with Sharingans in Madara's laboratory. They youngest being the ancestors of the Senju, the yees have been passed down from generations to generations until Konoha was founded. It is the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju, who gave his dear clone of Madara, Kagami, the eyes that were still in possession of the Senju. That is why Madara says to Konan that the Rinnegan was originally his.
10. The famous 6th coffin
With all that, it is still plausible that the body in the 6th coffin is the real Madara Uchiha, who died against the First Hokage.
11. A little bit of chronology.
If you check out the only hint that can prove a certain chronology in the story, it is the length of his hairs.
The chronology is respected very well if you check 8 ot 16 years ago.
He had three meeting at that time, the first with Minato, the second with Itachi and the third with Kisame.
I read this off another site very well thought out theory
I have developped a theory based on some of the facts that we can see in the manga. This theory was created to try to find the true identity of Tobi and to understand many concepts that have yet to be explained in the manga. Here we go.
1. What is Tobi?
I believe that Tobi is not the real Madara Uchiha. I think that the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju, created a clone of Madara using the cells found on his brother's blade. There should have been plenty of DNA found on the blade in order to create a clone.
2. Who is that clone?
That clone is none other than Kagami Uchiha, created about 70 years ago. We have never heard of Kagami besides in Danzo's flashback and it is still unknown if he is dead or not. Also, Kagami in japanese means ''Mirror'', which could relate to the fact that he is a pure reflection of how Madara Uchiha was,personality, included.
3. Cloning? Does that even exist in Naruto?
Of course it does. Something tells me that Orochimaru, who really loved doing experiments, was a real fan of the Second Hokage, who also was a person who loved doing experiments. We know that Orochimaru has perfected one of the technique created by the Second Hokage, known as Edo Tensei, and perhaps he also mastered something else created by Tobirama, and that's how he managed to make a clone of the First Hokage, known as Yamato.
4. Why did Orochimaru know so much about Madara?
Since Orochimaru wanted to learn so much about everything, I am pretty sure he somehow managed to gain access to archives of the Second Hokage's experiments, which of course included all the details about the clone of Madara Uchiha, Kagami. That's the reason why he knew so much and that's why we keep hearing his name from Madara's mouth.
5. The relation between Madara and Danzo
If we go back to the fight between Sasuke and Danzo, we can see Madara narrating what's happening during the whole fight. I find the way he talks about Danzo somehow as if he knew him a lot. Of course he would, since he was in his ninja team for several years and they have known each other since childhood. Danzo also seems to know Madara a lot, as if they were once friends. Danzo never revealed anything about Madara since they have made a pact the night of the Uchiha Clan massacre.
6. Did Uchiha Kagami have a family?
Compare Kagami wtih Shisui at about the same age.
Kagami:
I think that they really look alike, so my guess is that Shisui is Kagami's son.
7. Danzo-Madara-Itachi : The Three way pact - Uchiha Clan's Massacre
We all know that there was a meeting between these 3 guys before the Uchiha Massacre.
Pact Madara => Danzo :
- Gift of one of the most powerful sharingan, the one of Uchiha Shisui, his own son, and some other sharingans.
Pact Danzo => Madara:
- All of the other sharingans on the Uchiha corpses.
- Keeping the secret about the truth behind Kagami.
Pact Madara => Itachi:
- Prohibition of attacking Konoha
Pact Itachi => Madara:
- Never revealing the truth about him
- Work for him in his own organisation, Akatsuki
Pact Danzo => Itachi:
- Safety of his fellow brother, Uchiha Sasuke
Pact Itachi => Danzo:
- Doing the dirty job of killing all remaining Uchiha.
8. ''Madara is just a former shell of himself.''
Itachi said to Sasuke when they fought for the last time that Madara was a former shell of himself.
Being killed by the First Hokage and being the clone of the real Madara, Kagami can be considered weaker. I do believe that the Mangekyo Sharingan and the EMS are not genetic traits, but rather signs of one's accomplishments in his life. That is the reason why we only see a normal three tomoe sharingan from Madara's mask, it is because he does NOT have EMS anymore, only a normal sharingan. Also, the things that Itachi didn,t know about Madara and that would have made Madara dead by now are simply the knowledge behind Madara's powers (Space-Time jutsu, unsolidifying, etc.).
9. The Rinnegan.
The Rinnegan came from the legendary Sage of the Six Paths. When he was about to die, he gave some of his powers to his two sons. The elder one recieved the power of the eyes and the youngest one recieved the power of the body. It was the youngest one that was proclaimed to be the chief one. I don't think he would have let a power such as the Rinnegan just die with his father. He probably took them off and put them in a jar, like we have seen with Sharingans in Madara's laboratory. They youngest being the ancestors of the Senju, the yees have been passed down from generations to generations until Konoha was founded. It is the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju, who gave his dear clone of Madara, Kagami, the eyes that were still in possession of the Senju. That is why Madara says to Konan that the Rinnegan was originally his.
10. The famous 6th coffin
With all that, it is still plausible that the body in the 6th coffin is the real Madara Uchiha, who died against the First Hokage.
11. A little bit of chronology.
If you check out the only hint that can prove a certain chronology in the story, it is the length of his hairs.
The chronology is respected very well if you check 8 ot 16 years ago.
He had three meeting at that time, the first with Minato, the second with Itachi and the third with Kisame.
I read this off another site very well thought out theory
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Cooldragon
Member
Good prediction, but I think Madara/????? wouldn't reveal what he did that quickly.
Cooldragon
Member
Senju Clan Killer
Member
A great theory, I actually posted a basic theory involving Kagami being Madara a while back where I based my idea off chapter 503 of the Manga. As you mentioned, here is a picture of Danzou and his piers that we saw at the time of his death:
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As we know, Sarutobi, Danzou, Koharu and Mitokado were the four elders of the Leaf we got familiar with but other than in that flashback, we saw no sign of Kagami and Torifu. However, after 503, we saw a sign of Torifu in the flashback:
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This means Torifu died during that battle, or between that battle and the start of part 1. However, Kagami is unaccounted for. I really thought that he could be Madara or at the very least Madara was using his body, considering we dont know what happened to him.
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Boobiee220
Member
You guys could possibly be right, also if you study the pictures, their hair is exactly the same. And whenever we seen Madara his hair was long. However in the anime, the flashbacks of Madara and Itachi talking in the forest, his hair was long as well and he had the mask on. We can only say a few though. Theories is Theories, we'll have to wait until Kishi unravels this mystery for us.
jabznaruto
Member
hi rapture! welcome to the base!
i see you are new(correct me if i'm wrong) in the forum.
there were lots of posts re edo tensei already, and i want to say that i get what you meant in your comment to my post -- and you are right.
but the following should clarify my post to you...
1. should kakashi use MS on "zabuza and the others plus kabuto" (if there is a chance they get together), then i guess kakashi puts an end to "edo tensei" -- and i mean...
a. kakashi eliminates kabuto...
b. kakashi eliminates zabuza and company...
...by sending them to another dimension.
...to further explain..
a. kakashi gets rid of kabuto as the user of the art and as the caster of the spell, thereby eliminating edo tensei. kabuto surely can summon all he can muster, but i think his summons will appear in the dimension kakashi puts them in.
b. kakashi gets rid of "kabuto's summons" that his division encountered.
...in short, kakashi sends kabuto, zabuza and co. to oblivion for good.
and by doing so, the alliance division in the encounter can never be screwed - as you put it.
...of course, kabuto's other summons (there are still a number of them) will stay.
re your idea to capture kabuto and let him do the hand signs then say "release" - would be a lot far fetched than my idea above.
....and the reasons...
1. kabuto will surely be harder to capture "in person", than to be captured by kakashi's MS. he is one sleek serpent. my idea that kakashi does an MS with kabuto and zabuza + co. is hinged with the thought that kabuto is nearby kakashi's division encountering zabuza and co. then he appears to help zabuza and co.
2. kabuto knows "no one" except himself can let the word "release" out of his mouth with his "will concurring the intention" to disperse the summons.
even madara should know this by now.
shikamaru could capture kabuto.
shikamaru could let kabuto do the hand signs.
but shikamaru should not be able to let kabuto say "release" with the willingness to end the spell.
"the will" is characterized first and foremost to be free and independent -- adversely, the will is harder to control (spirituality as the basis). no one could ever "force" kabuto to do this...except of course for kishi.
...hope i shed light to your comment
yes sennin...kabuto has a lot of work to do...the next thing he knows...he could be one of somebody's summons already hehe...somebody who learned a much more powerful badass edo tensei...and this could be madara.
yo buddy!Hmm I didn't really think that the Zetsu's 'electric impulse travel' would imply to the water. It does seem they are clearly earth element, which I would assume they can only travel that way through earth. Though, I am not to sure that taking out Madara would get rid of the Zetsu's. We know the zetsu's power is from the 1st Hokage statue, which implies they can live on their own, but acting on their own in still in question.
In regard to Kabuto, I think Rapture had the right idea. I doubt that sending Kabuto to another dimension via Kakashi's MS will stop the summons. At the very least, it will prevent further summons coming forth but not stop the current ones. Maybe the best thing would be to send Kabuto's legs (or half of his snake body or whatever) to another dimension to immobilize him but still allowing him to form the necessary seals and say 'release' lol.
...guess i should agree with you that the zetsus travel along earth element passages for now.
...but i think that the zetsus are only following madara's orders. we never have seen the zetsus acting on their own. they sure can live on their own, but they behave to obey none other than madara's whims.
re rapture's comment...
i cleared that above...to add some more...
1. kakashi should be able to stop zabuza and co.
2. kakashi could contain kabuto...
3. kakashi can of course do "nothing with the summons" out of his MS' reach.
...leading us to...
1. if kakashi could do MS with kabuto, sasuke and madara would be highly capable to do so as well.
2. madara is really more powerful than kabuto.
...then...there are still two other ways i thought of to stop "edo tensei"
1. subject kabuto to a powerful "sharingan genjutsu" and bind him, torture him to near death to the extent he willfully agrees to do the hand signs and say "release".
2. Naruto's frog senseis' "powerful frog genjutsu" , then immobilize kabuto etc...and so forth..
what you say floydical? i know the ideas are a bit off and remote, but i see them still possible...
i also believe sasuke does not know re nagato's attack to the leaf village. at least not if madara told him already lol..
nice pred there sasukethegreat!
yo 4bdn!
i think you and try1x07 had read or had come across the same article.
...but the theory is impressive...yukimaru yoshi's reactions are also appealing though.
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Sennin Jinchuuriki
Active member
A very good analysis indeed though some of the stuffs like number 6 are a bit too complicated but really interesting to read.
good job, it is very possible that madara is using other bodies like oro did to get immortality.
but madara being not madara is still vague and is there really time for new flashbacks i hope not
i mean they've allredy shown us madaras past.its like someone would say jiraiya is still alive because no one found his body and maybe nagato lied as he said jiraiya he killed his teacher.
i belive it is madara but just weaker, like he himself said the 1st hokage must have done smething to him some fatal wound that cannot be healed.
it could even be that the 1st killed madara but someone revived madara, or the first let him alive.
about madara being a clone i dont think so why would someone make a clone and not be able to stay alive, and then a why a clone of madara.
but why was he wearing a mask as he fought minato like hiding his face from those who could identify him. to sasuke and kisame he would show his face. kisame identified him as madara hmm and about itachi he would not fight alongside someone weak so maybe he also saw his face.
Boobiee220
Member
You guys should all reread chapter 467 starting from Page 8-17. That's where Madara explains his whole plan of the Moon Eye and why he calls refers to himself as only " empty shell of his former self." This is the real Madara Uchiha. He also does have EMS, but he wanted the Rinnegan from Nagato to be able to read the tablet buried under Konoha which would allow him to recieve all the information about the sage of the 6 paths. Floyd was also correct about how when someone develops MS they recieve their own unique abilities. That's why Madara wants Sasuke to develop his powers of MS, and soon EMS. Madara states that a MS with the power of Susanoo is a rarity.
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Michelle
Active member
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i like this theory too, it can explain the difference between the old Madara's unmasked look and the masked man who's calling himself Madara. Thanks for sharing it.
About the 6th coffin, i'm not quite sure it can be Madara's real body, we'll see it when Kishi will be generous with us and will tell us all the story without secrets.
Sennin Jinchuuriki
Active member
There have been only a handful of people who awakened the MS so awakening Susanoo is a huge rarity
but I agree with you I also think that it is the real Uchiha Madara and the guy from the 6th coffin must have something to do with Madara's past regarding one of his secrets I mean now I think its just too late showing that Madara isn't Madara after all Kishi created all these buzz with the revelation of Madara's character.
jspencer43
Member
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On the 6th coffin theory, judging by how "Madara" reacted and by kabuto saying "relax I havn't told a soul". It would have to be something reguarding Madara the real madara. I mean why would he get freaked out like that and why would kabuto say that?
Then on the previous page kabuto says "a young living uchia", which in turn could mean Madara we know of, is either;
a.) Dead. - edo tensai him self
b.) Not really madara, just using the user name.
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Boobiee220
Member
It also could be Madara's brother. The manga spoke about them being the two strongest of the Uchiha, and when Madara took the eyes of his brother, he died young and was buried in the coffin with all the other Uchihas. So maybe before Danzo got all the Sharingans from all the dead Uchihas to put on his arm, Kabuto must of snagged Madara's brother, that could be a reason why Danzo didn't have a MS in his eye or on his arm. Also when Kabuto said "a young fragile living uchiha"he was referring to Sasuke.
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jspencer43
Member
Maybe but if it was his brother then why would kabuto say relax I havn't told a soul. If it were his brother that just wouldn't make sense.
Yes I know he was refering to sauske, but if he wanted a real life living uchia .. madara was rite in front of him, that's why I had living in bold.
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Boobiee220
Member
I too think Madara still has his EMS, he just hasn't felt the need to use it yet. I agree that the most likely solution to all this is that Madara is in fact the original Madara, both his body and soul. The best explanation we have to prove how he survived up to this point would be a combination of his creation Zetsu and his space time abilities. One old theory is that spending time in his alternate dimension does not age you, or ages you much slower than in the real world. Plus, we know for an absolute fact that Madara has massive regenerative capabilities via Zetsu. We still don't know the details regarding his fight with the first and since he used that fight to gain the 1st's DNA and create Zetsu, its a fairly logical assumption that he had no regenerative capabilities at that point. Him surviving that battle is still a big mystery (especially since he couldn't have used Izangi at that point either!).
And the bit about Madara saying that "Susanoo is a rarity for a sharingan" is quite intriguing to read again. Maybe the abilities spawned by a MS are indeed unique to the user and random, but perhaps there are only a limited number of abilites that can spawn. Remember that Itachi said that Sasuke would be the third person to activate the MS.....we know for a fact that there has been at least 4 total, counting Madara's brother. Maybe Madara has seen many MS activations through his time......
Its good to look back at that scene again. I think we often forget the minor details about what was actually stated in that scene, instead remembering the general point it put across. Honestly, to me it definitely seems that Madara is in that last coffin. But if that is the case, than Tobi is not only not Madara in his original body, but he is not even Madara's soul in a different body. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that since so much has been said about Madara and since Kishi has driven it home so far that Tobi is Madara. There are still big questions to answer but the biggest to me are how Madara actually survived the battle with the first and who's in that damn coffin....
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Akatsuki leader
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