[VS] Current Luffy vs Old Rayleigh

OG sama

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Having mastered both Advanced CoO and Advanced CoA, how does the future PK stack up to his master currently?

My take: this is an interesting match up, Luffy has mastered both Haki forms and the only one he hasn’t mastered is CoC, Ray has those mastered too and probably had advanced CoC, personally I don’t think Old Ray can use advanced CoC anymore.

- I always pegged Old Ray as a low Top Tier fighter which is where I think Luffy is now or to be on the safe side on the level where Luffy after the Kaido fight will comfortably be.

If we’re being technical I guess Ray could win as of this moment if Luffys advanced CoA isn’t all that it’s being hyped up to be, but if Luffys going to bypass Kaidos scales then he’s going to need to be pretty adept at advanced CoA.

This fight imo could go either way, Luffy can stack his much improved Haki unto his Gears to give him an advantage Ray won’t have not to mention I don’t know how great Old Ray is in extended battles, Luffy would probably come out on top against anybody whose on his level though being the MC and yada yada yada.

Thoughts?
 

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I think Rayleigh would win since he has not only more experience and his skills are greater but he also legit trained Luffy so I'm pretty sure that Rayleigh will know what Luffy will do and can easily beat him.
 

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I think Rayleigh would win since he has not only more experience and his skills are greater but he also legit trained Luffy so I'm pretty sure that Rayleigh will know what Luffy will do and can easily beat him.
Hmm what diff you going with? And Is this pre or post Kaido fight? I don’t agree with your some of what you said and here’s why:

-I would consider fighting a prolonged battle with a Yonko and the WSC pretty damn good experience.

-He can know what Luffy can do... but that doesn’t mean he can stop it. Luffy got advanced forms of both CoA and CoO, he can see into the future, his CoA will also be good enough to hurt Kaido from within and he can stack that onto his gears like I said in OP. If he can injure Kaido he can for sure injure an Old Ray.

My conclusion based off your claims: Rayleigh doesn’t have a real advantage to me other than he’s been a Top tier longer, but he’s old and not as strong as he once was. He’s extremely limited to what he used to be able to do, he’s still very strong clearly but Luffy should be capable of pulling out a win, as he’s not limited at all, he has his Haki upgrades and he has his gears on top that should give him more than enough firepower to overwhelm Ray. Skill and experience doesn’t really mean anything against sheer strength and if it did, Luffy would never ever pull ahead of those who came before him but we know he will and it’s literally a theme in every shonen, experience has never ever meant anything.
 

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Luffy. One Piece works in weird ways. Look at Crocodile and Shadow Guy What's His Face. They were strong af until they stopped training. Rayleigh hasn't just aged, it's also likely that he doesn't even really train or anything nowadays, so he's rocking the same boat.
 
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Old Rayleigh. Despite, his retirement and age Garp and Kizaru acknowledged he's a certified Admiral level threat & combatant. Meanwhile Luffy was struggling against Commander level characters. Boundman struggled against Katakuri and Snakeman just matched his output. To emphasize the point Kaido no sold its barrage and yammed him to sleep. Meanwhile Rayleigh was tagging Kizru's LS mode and matching him blow for blow. Whatever your impressions of Admirals and Emperors are, the difference in abilities is closer than it would be between Admiral and Commander. Based on everything we've seen until 958 -- Luffy best chance of victory is Rayleigh's stamina depleting -- which was the biggest issue when he fought Kizaru.
 

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Old Rayleigh. Despite, his retirement and age Garp and Kizaru acknowledged he's a certified Admiral level threat & combatant. Meanwhile Luffy was struggling against Commander level characters. Boundman struggled against Katakuri and Snakeman just matched his output. To emphasize the point Kaido no sold its barrage and yammed him to sleep. Meanwhile Rayleigh was tagging Kizru's LS mode and matching him blow for blow. Whatever your impressions of Admirals and Emperors are, the difference in abilities is closer than it would be between Admiral and Commander. Based on everything we've seen until 958 -- Luffy best chance of victory is Rayleigh's stamina depleting -- which was the biggest issue when he fought Kizaru.
I disagree and theirs a lot of exaggerating within this post.

First off,

-Kizaru never said anything about Old Ray being an Admiral level threat, he acknowledged him as a strong individual but he never said such thing. Not saying Old Ray isn’t an Admiral level threat, but this argument can’t be made to suggest that the current Luffy wouldnt present a similar challenge to Kizaru that Old Ray did. That’s all I’m saying.

- Kizaru doesn’t equal Kaido at all, and even if he did he wasn’t serious at all with Old Ray while, on the other end, Old Ray was panting and knew he wouldn’t be able to hold off Kizaru for much longer.

- A Luffy who was still recovering from his wounds fought Fujitora, an Admiral who should be on the same level as Kizaru and not only did he fight him but he managed to push him back and bruise him with Just G3.... not even using G4

And despite this^, a stronger Luffy, completely healed and using G4 two arcs later still got stomped by a YC1 and had to get stronger to win.

So where is this clear abilities difference between Admirals and Commanders that you speak of?????

I’m not saying all Admirals are equal but where is this evidence of Admirals being closer to Yonkos outside of Aokiji and Akainu than to Yonko commanders??? Outside of those two the Admirals have never been portrayed that way at all.

Luffy can totally replicate Old Rays performance at his current Level against Kizaru and i don’t see one decent argument against that.
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I like how Minamoto won’t debate but he’s steady trying to laugh at other people’s opinions.

Like I said lots of fanboy bias within OP fans. It doesn’t matter how good my argument is we gone have those groups of people acting like I’m saying something completely wrong just cause they don’t want to admit there favorite character is weaker than another. Ray could be stronger but if you ain’t gone debate why and defend your favorite character you kinda proving me right. No offense to Minamoto
 
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id honestly say current luffy assuming he can now use the second form of armament haki, but unfortunately I don't see him just casually being able to hang with the top tiers just yet. the way Rayleigh and kizarus interaction was, is something I could see happening between luffy and someone along the power of katakuri. (before he was pushed to extreme diff, now I can see him being on the same level, but without being pushed to the extent he was before, if that makes sense)
 
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id honestly say current luffy assuming he can now use the second form of armament haki, but unfortunately I don't see him just casually being able to hang with the top tiers just yet. the way Rayleigh and kizarus interaction was, is something I could see happening between luffy and someone along the power of katakuri. (before he was pushed to extreme diff, now I can see him being on the same level, but without being pushed to the extent he was before, if that makes sense)
Kinda confused at what you mean with the Kata and Luffy part.

Are you saying that Luffy is still just YC1 level now? If so, I don’t see why that would be the case, especially not if Zoro is going to take on a YC1 this arc. If Zoro is one level then Luffy is a level above.

So in this case if Zoro is fighting a YC1 and winning he is a high-high tier, while Luffy is a low Top Tier imo.

He is beating any YC1 comfortably but of course with some difficulty at least that’s how I see it.

Not sure if that’s what you were even saying.

Also didn’t he use stage 2 the barrier/force field Haki against BM??
 
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-Kizaru never said anything about Old Ray being an Admiral level threat, he acknowledged him as a strong individual but he never said such thing. Not saying Old Ray isn’t an Admiral level threat, but this argument can’t be made to suggest that the current Luffy wouldnt present a similar challenge to Kizaru that Old Ray did. That’s all I’m saying.

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Garp stated the Marines are unprepared to fight Old WB and Rayleigh. Garp under the impression Rayleigh possess his original strength. Kizaru encounters him and qualifies the statement stating preparation was indeed needed. However, as their battle prolonged Rayleigh confirms he's old and no longer the man he was.

- Kizaru doesn’t equal Kaido at all, and even if he did he wasn’t serious at all with Old Ray while, on the other end, Old Ray was panting and knew he wouldn’t be able to hold off Kizaru for much longer.

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Who said he is? The emphasis is on the quality of opponent and how they suffered their defeat. Rayleigh stated he couldn't hold of Kizaru AND protect SH from multiple PX and Kuma. As recently as last chapter Luffy couldn't hold of Katakuri and protect SH from Peros. You accused me of exaggeration? Show us where Kizaru wasn't serious on capturing someone he acknowledged as a threat. Let me refresh your memory G4 has 3 variants Boundman, Tankman and Snakeman.
Boundman couldn't put down Cracker nor Katakuri. Kong Organ couldn't break a fortified Biscuit Solider. Katakuri beat Luffy senseless and asked him if had something more. Katakuri self inflicted wounds and fought Snakeman on par. By feats Luffy's best modes are Yonko Commander level. Rayleigh is Admiral. For the love of God lets save ourselves the time if you believe Yonko Commanders are competing with Admirals.

- A Luffy who was still recovering from his wounds fought Fujitora, an Admiral who should be on the same level as Kizaru and not only did he fight him but he managed to push him back and bruise him with Just G3.... not even using G4
Again, you said I was exaggerating. Meanwhile you are fully ignoring that Luffy was rested for THREE DAYS. The same Luffy who informed us he heals quickly in Alabasta and in WCI fought an Emperor, Army and back to back Commanders. Did Luffy not push Kaido to the floor with G3? All this is that Luffy possesses enough strength to push unsuspecting opponents. Hardly a grand revelation considering Marco and Jozu (Yonko Commanders) accomplished the same. If this wasn't enough you want to equate Base Luffy shouting out his attacks as a legitimate fight against an Admiral. You want to talk about an Admiral not trying? Fujitora used Moko blows him apart and informs him he's been entertaining him.

And despite this^, a stronger Luffy, completely healed and using G4 two arcs later still got stomped by a YC1 and had to get stronger to win.
All the more reason a legitimate Admiral level opponent would cave current Luffy's chest open.

So where is this clear abilities difference between Admirals and Commanders that you speak of?????
Aaaah. This debate, I am not about to start having 2014-8 era arguments on the clear differences between Admirals and Commanders. All that will transpire is me posting panels and discussing statements only to have page upon page. After-which we'll never agree. If the basis of me stating Old Rayleigh > Luffy since one has Admiral portrayal and another Yonko Commander then we can agree to disagree.

I’m not saying all Admirals are equal but where is this evidence of Admirals being closer to Yonkos outside of Aokiji and Akainu than to Yonko commanders??? Outside of those two the Admirals have never been portrayed that way at all.
Prior to the TS it was all Emperor > Admirals >= Commanders. However, once TWO Admirals received some plot relevance. The goal post was moved from all Admirals to all Admirals except Kuzan and Sakazuki. Admiral is a military position with a set combat requirement. Its a position so rare and crucial -- it took a global conscription to find suitable candidates. Fujitora and Greenbull are Admiral replacements for the same Aoikiji and Akainu (who replaced Sengoku as Fleet Admiral) your rating highly. Kizaru matches all Akainu's feats in MF except tanking Quake hits. He (a) physically restrained WB (b) tanks a direct contact hit (c) dealt significant internal damage -- c570 and c571

Luffy can totally replicate Old Rays performance at his current Level against Kizaru and i don’t see one decent argument against that.
Fujitora while holding Dressrosa's rubble got serious for a split instance and sent Luffy flying. He stands there and watches him escape. Once again, from current feats I am picking Rayleigh. If Luffy shows something in 975+ onwards I'll switch.
 
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Garp stated the Marines are unprepared to fight Old WB and Rayleigh. Garp under the impression Rayleigh possess his original strength. Kizaru encounters him and qualifies the statement stating preparation was indeed needed. However, as their battle prolonged Rayleigh confirms he's old and no longer the man he was.



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Who said he is? The emphasis is on the quality of opponent and how they suffered their defeat. Rayleigh stated he couldn't hold of Kizaru AND protect SH from multiple PX and Kuma. As recently as last chapter Luffy couldn't hold of Katakuri and protect SH from Peros. You accused me of exaggeration? Show us where Kizaru wasn't serious on capturing someone he acknowledged as a threat. Let me refresh your memory G4 has 3 variants Boundman, Tankman and Snakeman. Boundman couldn't put down Cracker nor Katakuri. Kong Organ couldn't break a fortified Biscuit Solider. Katakuri beat Luffy senseless and asked him if had something more. Katakuri self inflicted wounds and fought Snakeman on par. By feats Luffy's best modes are Yonko Commander level. Rayleigh is Admiral. For the love of God lets save ourselves the time if you believe Yonko Commanders are competing with Admirals.



Again, you said I was exaggerating. Meanwhile you are fully ignoring that Luffy was rested for THREE DAYS. The same Luffy who informed us he heals quickly in Alabasta and in WCI fought an Emperor, Army and back to back Commanders. Did Luffy not push Kaido to the floor with G3? All this is that Luffy possesses enough strength to push unsuspecting opponents. Hardly a grand revelation considering Marco and Jozu (Yonko Commanders) accomplished the same. If this wasn't enough you want to equate Base Luffy shouting out his attacks as a legitimate fight against an Admiral. You want to talk about an Admiral not trying? Fujitora used Moko blows him apart and informs him he's been entertaining him.



All the more reason a legitimate Admiral level opponent would cave current Luffy's chest open.



Aaaah. This debate, I am not about to start having 2014-8 era arguments on the clear differences between Admirals and Commanders. All that will transpire is me posting panels and discussing statements only to have page upon page. After-which we'll never agree. If the basis of me stating Old Rayleigh > Luffy since one has Admiral portrayal and another Yonko Commander then we can agree to disagree.



Prior to the TS it was all Emperor > Admirals >= Commanders. However, once TWO Admirals received some plot relevance. The goal post was moved from all Admirals to all Admirals except Kuzan and Sakazuki. Admiral is a military position with a set combat requirement. Its a position so rare and crucial -- it took a global conscription to find suitable candidates. Fujitora and Greenbull are Admiral replacements for the same Aoikiji and Akainu (who replaced Sengoku as Fleet Admiral) your rating highly. Kizaru matches all Akainu's feats in MF except tanking Quake hits. He (a) physically restrained WB (b) tanks a direct contact hit (c) dealt significant internal damage -- c570 and c571



Fujitora while holding Dressrosa's rubble got serious for a split instance and sent Luffy flying. He stands there and watches him escape. Once again, from current feats I am picking Rayleigh. If Luffy shows something in 975+ onwards I'll switch.
That’s all got to do with his Prime Strength and his fame with the Roger Pirates. He’s been retired for 20 years and was never found or captured, to them he could have gotten stronger or weaker within that time frame. But that’s why precautions were needed as before disbanding he was already an Admiral+ level threat. He’s the PKs right hand they clearly hold him in high esteem.

Rayleigh is Admiral level according to you.... but yet he’s the only one visibly shown panting in the same panel that Kizaru is in... now how in tf does that work???? Why do you think that is?? So Oda wanted us to believe Old Ray is Admiral level... but yet he’s the only one panting in a panel they both shared and the fight has only really just started???

Man stop it, when has Kizaru ever took any thing serious, it’s his personality to be a laid back, nonchalant care free character. This is the same guy who didn’t even kill the Pre TS SNs when he easily should have been able to with one damn shot. This is the same dude who put his hands up in the air when he saw Beckman as if he had no chance and then later turned around and still went after Luffy. Kizaru isn’t a serious character and has never been serious about anything, he gives his opponents all the credit even though he does little to nothing to stop them, idk how long you been reading this manga but anybody whose been reading this series for a long time knows this.

Your saying that Old Rays best feats are Admiral level as if he accomplished something that the Current Luffy is incapable of replicating. Where’s the proof of this?? Old Ray and Kizaru had a short sword clash, like imagine jumping to conclusions of someone’s strength based off a short skirmish. Oh wait.... y’all OP fans do that shit all the damn time, y’all did that shit with Sabo, Marco, Vista, Jozu, and now ain’t nobody arguing that any of these characters is Admiral level. Gee I wonder why... cause short clashes DO NOT, I REPEAT... DO NOT indicate how strong a character really is. Luffy on the other hand, is going to have a prolonged battle with a YONKO and the WSC and is going to be doing some substantial damage. That’s going to be better than anything Ray has shown at his old age. And even though it hasn’t happened YET. We can infer that he’s capable of doing so right now as he’s already done all the training that he needs, as that was one of the reasons why he was stuck in Udon Prison and trained all his stats, to prepare for the upcoming battle against Kaido.

Luffy was rested for three days and still had bandages on his body, why do you think that is??? Because he wasn’t completely healed after the three days. That battle with Doflamingos was one of the toughest battles he has had yet and even he needed more than three days to completely heal from it. My point still stands on this, still healing from prior injuries, and no G4, or FS(which he didn’t have yet), or Advanced CoA(which he didn’t have yet), no udon prison stat boost(which he didn’t have yet). And still was holding his own with an Admiral and gave an Admiral a bruise and managed to push him back with his most basic G3 attack.

^It’s funny how you can give Ray credit for clashing and panting against Kizaru, who I also already proved is a laid back nonchalant character, but you ignore that Luffy didn’t use G4 when he fought Fujitora and is a lot stronger now than he was then. I also like how you ignore Luffy beating Dragon form Kaidos ass forcing him to go to his more mobile Oni base state, but you were probably one of the same ones riding Odens coat tails for slashing Kaido in that same state, as if that’s not an impressive feat from Luffy.


I’m finna just destroy this whole fucking argument as I’m tired of this shitty ass Luffy downplay. You say one has Admiral level portrayal and the other one has Commander, but yet Marco and Jozu had similar showings against Admirals that Old Ray has and they are division commanders on WBS ship!!!!!!!!!! El ohhhhhhh el man. And to make your argument sound even sillier the one who did the most damage was Jozu a YC2, besides him no one else besides WB himself even made a single Admiral bleed. And he was fighting Aokiji just fine until he got distracted... and Jozu is a YC2 man. So this argument that Yonko Commanders have some huge difference in portrayal to Admirals is BS, has always been BS, and will forever be BS. I’m not saying their equal but your reasonings for Old Ray being admiral level would have to apply to Marco and Jozu as well if we’re going to go from small sample size skirmishes with Admirals.

Akainu and Kizaru are different characters who handle situations different from the other. Akainu isn’t going to let pre TS SNs escape, Kizaru is just lazy asf. They are close in strength that I agree on but it’s the difference in personality that makes Akainu more dangerous than Kizaru. As Akainu isn’t going to waste time killing someone while Kizaru is going to play around.

Where in the manga is it stated that Fujitora was hindered by all the rubble he casually held in the air??? I’ll wait, because the rubble was not stated or even implied to be an issue for him in that fight against Luffy.

I could be here all day going in depth with you and destroying these claims but I’m on my phone and I don’t know how to reply to paragraphs one by one SMH.


Like I said, lots of fanboy bias within OP fans, any feat Luffy has against a Top Tier is chalked up to them not being serious. But if it’s anybody else, OP fans gone hype a character up to sky high for accomplishing the same damn shit.
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^I want to just tear that whole argument down and just make it better but imma just leave it alone. And see what you come up with next...
 
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@OG sama You obviously believe current Luffy (as per c957) is stronger than Old Rayleigh. You believe Admirals and Commanders are comparable. An in shape (health, prime) Rayleigh is touted to have a threat comparable to Whitebeard -- he's admits a decline. However, in this span he wounds Kizaru and prevents his advance and escapes without imprisonment. Garp -- another Admiral level stated he'd personally oversee his case. You want to use panting as justification of condition, ignoring the context behind it. Ok then, Fujitora panted against Base/G3 Luffy -- does this mean these two modes mean Luffy is Admiral level? The simple fact of the matter is Rayleigh encounter an Admiral wounds and stalemated them -- said Admiral stating he acknowledged Rayleigh wasn't an opponent to take lightly. Fujitora is on panel telling Luffy he's going to take him seriously?

You have such a rampant desire to celebrate empty victories you've resulted to the classic LOL argument. Did Admirals proclaim they needed to prepare for Marco, Sabo, Jozu, Vista? Did these characters confront Admirals and wound them? Do you realize how comical you sound? You admit WB and Jozu damaged an Admiral. Fucking Jozu who charged against Kuzan facing WB to inflict damage. He fails to accomplish the same feat again. So basically a Yonko and Rayleigh outright damaged an Admiral. None of those characters could WOUND an Admiral. Marco and Vista are called a nuisance whenever they tried their battles. In my response I told you I rate Admirals superior to Commanders -- these are opinions I've had since 2010 -- my post history across multiple sights speaks for itself. Commanders were cycling and alternating through Admirals -- Rayleigh confronts one for an extended duration. Fujitora makes it abundantly clear he's trying to maintain his standing -- questions Luffy's. Re-read 799 he is bruisless.

You asked me what is the purpose of the rubble? Let me refresh your memory. Marines cleared out the ports -- which left Luffy and his Pirates. The same Fujitora signaled his intent towards Doflamingo, Law and Sabo by dropping meteors. With an entire depository at his command engages Luffy in his continued charade. Once again Luffy who couldn't put down non Admiral Mingo, Cracker or Doflamingo with G4 fighting one in base is proof of what? Stop speaking about character personalities when it comes to Admirals. Kuzan had the least feats. Kizaru matches Sakazuki in all feats bar one. Fujitora and Ryokogyu are replacement Admirals for Kuzan and Akainu. The WG didn't GAF about their personalities and ability to handle situations. They were nominated for their strength. Despite, his inferior feats Kuzan due to narrative significance matched Akainu. What significance do the Admirals nominated in the Worst Generation when Warlords are being abolished represent.

Admiral > Yonko Commander. If you think Kizaru, Greenbull, Fujitora are competing with the likes of fucking Jack, Cracker, Smoothie, Katakuri and Marco. Might as well save me the time. Esp if in 2020 after seeing Kaido one shot Luffy, Marco suffer an overwhelming defeat to a crew that's not even complete, Fujitora casually toy with Sabo and push him to where only his DF saved him, You have statements from Akainu, Sengoku and Momonga that they wanted to limit WBP to the plaza. WB goading Akainu once he crossed and was using his DF destructively and threatened to destroy MF. Then IDK what to say but you got it. Its obvious this is just devolving into wall on wall of rehash. Rayleigh panted -- in his first fight after 22 years -- as he needed to fight and save people against an Admiral who fought him as a threat. Despite, being on the wrong side of 74 he wounds him. On top of which he did just fine swimming from through the Calm Belt from SA though. You made this thread stating it could go either way on an assumption Luffy had great CoA. Yet, are defensive and mad at people who vote Rayleigh. Newsflash, the CoA he's learning what Rayleigh already had. The Future Sight Luffy he possess, Rayleigh had an inclination about it. Even after learning FS he barely managed to see greatly above 10 seconds. Yet, you believe he'll learn CoA and become adept as if this is Bleach. Forgetting Kaido scales were slashed by Oden and Enma -- Oden who rated actual adept CoA users Roger/WB to be above him. Lastly, the speculation is gears will give him the jump. Gears which drain his haki and just barely pieced up Yonko Commanders? What is the point of asking current Luffy when your speaking about hypothetical? If you really want to hear Luffy wins. There you go.
 

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@3AM I believe Luffy should be very comparable to Old Ray right now or at least by the time this arc is over in strength. At this point it’s probably better to say at the end of this arc as he hasn’t fought any one noteworthy to even test his CoA out.

- It’s been shown that Yonko commanders can hold their own with Admirals in this manga, they aren’t as strong, but they are at a necessary strength level to not get stomped by the likes of them. WB trusted in Marco and Jozu to hold off Kizaru and Aokiji. And that’s exactly what they managed to do for a decent while until they were both distracted by WBs health getting worse and worse.

Once again Ray was the PKs right hand and was an Admiral + level fighter in his prime. Obviously with that kind of fame and reputation precautions would be needed. But he’s old now as he points out and isn’t as strong as he used to be. But this isn’t Prime Ray we’re debating here, and even though he is still hella strong in his 70s, strong enough to hold off Kizaru, an Admiral. This isn’t a feat that belongs only to him, as we have seen Marco and Jozu hold off Admirals during MF. Marco kicked back Kizaru and Aokiji several distances and was doing just fine until he got distracted , Jozu held his own with Aokiji and only lost as soon as he turned his back and got distracted. Like i said in my last post they all had similar showings, none of their performances are noticeably better than the others except Marco and Jozu were fighting in a damn war, where outside interference is bound to happen.

Not saying that Ray isn’t stronger than Marco or Jozu but don’t act like his feats against Admirals are closer to Old WBs then those two because that’s not what was shown at all.

It sounds like you’re trying to mix in Prime Rayleigh hype with Old Ray feats to make Old Ray look better than he was supposed to in that battle.

Bringing up old Dressrosa feats in an arc where G2/G3 was shown to be complete fodder to anyone worth their salt, and he still managed to somehow push Fuji back and bruise him in those forms... Fuji wasn’t serious with anyone on DR but you can bet he would have needed to exert some effort to stop G4. And that’s all I have been saying.

Im not claiming anybody is Admiral level I’m just saying that with Rays current feats, he’s been doing what guys like Sabo, Marco, Jozu, and Vista have been doing, which is nothing more than the bare minimum against Top Tiers like the Admirals. And three of those 4 guys are Yonko commanders and Sabo at least during Dressrosa was about the same level as either one of these guys. Old Ray doesn’t have portrayal closer to Admirals then he does Yonko Commanders.

I want to respond to the rest of that BS but I’m on my damn phone again SMH. Im finna transition from my phone to my computer cause this is super annoying.
 
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You have to remember that Rayleigh used conquerors haki when he came out of his cell in Sabaody. That he used advanced CoA when he destroyed the collars. Then his intentions was to give strawhats some time to escape, he wasn really looking for an all out battle too, he certainly damaged Kizaru’s cheeks with only one clash. But sure things changed when Px’s arrived. It doesnt matter if hes YC or Admiral level, he deflected g4 luffy when training him and surely did get back in form when training him for year and a half. Its not like he is soo inactive like he was before. He swam to Amazon Lily which is a feat none has done in the series and fought several Sea Kings without losing any breath, so my guess is he surely is getting back in form and not getting slaved or being in jail for money.
 
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Rmstorm96

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You have to remember that Rayleigh used conquerors haki when he came out of his cell in Sabaody. That he used advanced CoA when he destroyed the collars. Then his intentions was to give strawhats some time to escape, he wasn really looking for an all out battle too, he certainly damaged Kizaru’s cheeks with only one clash. But sure things changed when Px’s arrived. It doesnt matter if hes YC or Admiral level, he deflected g4 luffy when training him and surely did get back in form when training him for year and a half. Its not like he is soo inactive like he was before. He swam to Amazon Lily which is a feat none has done in the series and fought several Sea Kings without losing any breath, so my guess is he surely is getting back in form and not getting slaved or being in jail for money.
Rayliegh fighting Gear 4 Luffy was filler. It is not cannon.
 

OG sama

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@3AM And I never asked what was the purpose of the rubble, I told you to prove to me that the rubble that he effortlessly held in the air was a hindrance to him in that fight. You can't prove to me that it was just like I thought because like I said, there's nothing implied or stated that it was. Instead you posted something entirely irrelevant on this subject.

And what do you mean their personalities are irrelevant?? I just explained to you why they are a big deal, you absolutely need to go and reread what I posted on this matter cause you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about on this subject. No one said they were nominated by personality, you need to go back and re read instead of posting nonsense.

Except thats exactly whats got to happen, G4 + Advanced CoA or whatever he combines with his Haki is exactly whats going to put him at or above old Rayleighs Haki level, unless you think this manga is going to go on for 10 more years until Oda finally decides its time for Luffys Ryou in base to surpass Old Rayleighs what other choice is left??? Do you know how ridiculous your argument sounds on this?? Based off your logic Luffys ryou will never surpass Rays because hes had his longer, when Oda has already revealed the cheat sheet so Luffy wont have to wait for eternity for his Haki to get better, whats going to make Haki bloom faster is fighting in constant extremely difficult battles, what better way to improve your Haki quicker than battles against a Yonko and the WSC??? That's enough reason for Luffys Haki to surpass Rayleighs sooner than later and a reasonable one at that.

^And if you want me to shit on your claim that he cant maintain his Haki in G4 I can go ahead and shut that down too, go and read the spoilers for this upcoming chapter, luffy casually using G4 to destroy a fodder ship. Now why on Earth would Luffy use G4 on some fodder ships when he didn't even want to use G4 until Doflamingos insides were fried??? Because due to his training with Advanced CoA he can now get away with using G4 like he does G2/G3, and possibly having something stronger than G4 up his sleeve too, you gone be eating your words when this arc ends 100%.

After reading that last paragraph I'm done just done, because I don't know how many times I need to keep telling you that I never believed that Yonko commanders and Admirals are equal. GO BACK AND RE READ.
 
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SixPathsMike101

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I disagree and theirs a lot of exaggerating within this post.

First off,

-Kizaru never said anything about Old Ray being an Admiral level threat, he acknowledged him as a strong individual but he never said such thing. Not saying Old Ray isn’t an Admiral level threat, but this argument can’t be made to suggest that the current Luffy wouldnt present a similar challenge to Kizaru that Old Ray did. That’s all I’m saying.

- Kizaru doesn’t equal Kaido at all, and even if he did he wasn’t serious at all with Old Ray while, on the other end, Old Ray was panting and knew he wouldn’t be able to hold off Kizaru for much longer.

- A Luffy who was still recovering from his wounds fought Fujitora, an Admiral who should be on the same level as Kizaru and not only did he fight him but he managed to push him back and bruise him with Just G3.... not even using G4

And despite this^, a stronger Luffy, completely healed and using G4 two arcs later still got stomped by a YC1 and had to get stronger to win.

So where is this clear abilities difference between Admirals and Commanders that you speak of?????

I’m not saying all Admirals are equal but where is this evidence of Admirals being closer to Yonkos outside of Aokiji and Akainu than to Yonko commanders??? Outside of those two the Admirals have never been portrayed that way at all.

Luffy can totally replicate Old Rays performance at his current Level against Kizaru and i don’t see one decent argument against that.
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I like how Minamoto won’t debate but he’s steady trying to laugh at other people’s opinions.

Like I said lots of fanboy bias within OP fans. It doesn’t matter how good my argument is we gone have those groups of people acting like I’m saying something completely wrong just cause they don’t want to admit there favorite character is weaker than another. Ray could be stronger but if you ain’t gone debate why and defend your favorite character you kinda proving me right. No offense to Minamoto
We can’t use Luffy vs Fujitora, that is just Luffy wank. We all Know Fujitora didn’t want luffy to be hurt or captured. He respects Luffy and knows he is a good man. He let Luffy go and simply did what he did so that no one could say he wasn’t attempting to do his job
 
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