First transgender "woman" to win track world title

Avani

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He still has clear physical advantage over biological female. Male skeleton, mussel type and related physical advantage doesn't go away just because he decides he is going to be a female. But if you think this is the only problem just wait..




If link still doesn't work just look for : "Hambrook, 37, pleaded guilty in February 2013 to two counts of sexual assault and one count of criminal harassment involving two women — a deaf and homeless Quebec woman and a Toronto survivor of domestic violence — while he was living at a Dundas St. W. shelter and the Fred Victor women’s shelter in January and February 2012. "
 
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Its funny, people think normalising gender dysphoria is somehow positive, peoples feelings not being hurt is now a prerogative instead of the hard truth.

He still has clear physical advantage over biological female. Male skeleton, mussel type and related physical advantage doesn't go away just because he decides he is going to be a female. But if you think this is the only problem just wait..


The second link doesn't work for me, first one is hilarious how stupid are these people.
 
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(Disclaimer: I skimmed the article). I believe that everyone has the right to be happy, and if changing your gender does that for you, that is okay. It does not affect me, and in my eyes, the goal to life is happiness. But, I do think this case can be unfair in the ways that he has stronger muscles and a more intense ability to grow stronger than women. Or even just male instinct?

However, the winner does tweet this, "3rd place (Jennifer Wagner) claims it's unfair for me to compete. At Masters Worlds, she beat me in the 500m TT. She beat me in 6 of 7 races at the 2017 Intelligentsia Cup. In 2016 she beat me in all 3 Speed Week crits. She's won 11 of our 13 races."

So this kind of finds a balance of things. Is she just salty that she lost? I would be. But if she won, and he came in second, she would be congratulating him most likely.

In my opinion, which is a grain of salt, because the real knowledge that I know on the science behind transgender altercations is not at an expert level enough to make claims, I think that if you were to include him in the male races, he would lose because of the hormone altercations and what not? But putting him on the women team is also giving him a slight more edge, whether its muscle or even just male instinct. So what do we really do? And I know there will be some people who say "just don't be transgender" but the world has changed and that isn't an option anymore, so really, what do we do? Create a new section for transgender athletics and cause an even larger divide in society?

I literally don't know where I stand on this. I think that chick is salty but I can understand why. But if that tweet is true then what? Did his hormone altercations wear off? Did she just not train as much? Etc.

The world has become more complicated and I really don't know what is to come for events like this. Someone will always, always be unsatisfied. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my opinion. I am always on the fence for just about every debate.I can see both sides clearly and I wish for the outcome that can bring both sides happiness.

Didn't one of these weirdos also break a women's skull in a boxing/wrestling match or something?
Weirdo? That is pretty a negative term to be used. Offensive in many cases.
Anyways... Just looked up that article and yeah wow, that is on a completely different level. A line should be drawn when it comes to physical fighting... the poor woman said that his grip was different. That she usually can wiggle around and find looseness in her female competitors grips, but his was stronger and unwavering.

( )
 
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Weirdo? That is pretty a negative term to be used. Offensive in many cases.
Anyways... Just looked up that article and yeah wow, that is on a completely different level. A line should be drawn when it comes to physical fighting... the poor woman said that his grip was different. That she usually can wiggle around and find looseness in her female competitors grips, but his was stronger and unwavering.

( )
I mean, yeah? What else are you gonna call someone like that? Weird by definition pertains to abnormal and uncanny things, and I am sure artificial hormones being put into your body qualifies as being just that. Especially when you then go on to win a women's tournament with your superior biological abilities.
 

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I support lgbt but these thing in the end matters they were born as male and became woman by choice.

The problem is pretty controversial when south african athlete was banned for increase level of testoserene . Though sje was cleared out of it and won a medal in olympics.

This has been always a controversey in athletics but casting out transgender is def not solution. I think Wada still need to taked these cases pretty seriously. Medical testing before and after the game must be taken if transgender prove they are hormonly balanced to compete in womens event . Then its all right .
 

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Didn't one of these weirdos also break a women's skull in a boxing/wrestling match or something?
I mean, yeah? What else are you gonna call someone like that? Weird by definition pertains to abnormal and uncanny things, and I am sure artificial hormones being put into your body qualifies as being just that. Especially when you then go on to win a women's tournament with your superior biological abilities.
You could use things that don't have a derogatory sense to them... even if "weird" is defined in the dictionary as just something that is abnormal or out of the ordinary, society has put a label on that word. It's like calling a kid that is struggling in math "stupid" instead of "struggling"? It will hurt that persons feelings, their parents feelings, their friends will be upset, it is a domino effect. So when I read your comment, I think of people I know or even people I don't know and feel a little obligated not to just scroll past. But don't worry, I know this is the internet and opinions are wide and vary. Not many people care too deeply about hurting someones feelings.

Thanks for your opinion on the article though. I found that boxing thing really interesting. I was hoping this reply would of had something about that incident in it so we could have continued that discussion.

Its funny, people think normalising gender dysphoria is somehow positive, peoples feelings not being hurt is now a prerogative instead of the hard truth.



The second link doesn't work for me, first one is hilarious how stupid are these people.

Ohh... There were three links.. I forgot to put in space. Fixed now.

There was really no main focus/issue. You asked for opinions on the article(s) and that was it... and so I gave mine on multiple factors that affect transgenders and women.
WTH I did not ask for opinions on the article, just replied to OP. You are choosing to drag me in to your personal crusade in here.


It's not like the transgenders mean to hurt or upset nor harass the women. I would say that it's the government's problem for allowing such things. The transgender just wanted to run her/his race, which he had done on multiple occasions and lost to the same woman that is complaining... and the government can't refuse him/her. They either place them on the woman's team, or the man's team. If on the man's team, the transgender would most likely lose constantly because of their hormone changes. But that is okay and fair? Yeah, I think women should only have to face woman. In simpler times it was like that. However, now there are trasngenders and in some circumstances (except when the trasngendered has lost multiple times to that same woman apparently) it is unfair.
Your argument is transgender find it hard to compete with other biological men and may lose, so to women should be forced to compensate for their issues because they are women by giving up their right to fair sports or safe spaces. It's not being progressive dear. It's making fooling some feminists and pressuring others to move in secondary in their own realm.

So what if the trans gendered guy lost to same woman previously. I bet many normal men will lose to her too if they do not have enough practice. Many trained women will beat up men in male sports as long as men they faced didn't know proper technique and training or were caught by surprise. But give similar training and after a point male body physique will give them natural advantage.This kind of arguments should be saved for twitter. They work in coffee klatch where people are not thinking it through, just supporting a sister for likes.

He/she doesn't look like a woman at all. Of course is unfair... It's like a gender play with the purpose of winning.
Exactly.
 

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He still has clear physical advantage over biological female. Male skeleton, mussel type and related physical advantage doesn't go away just because he decides he is going to be a female. But if you think this is the only problem just wait..


I just thought of something for a good discussion, semi-related to this.
Imagine if the world was only made up of 6 people (male, female, transgender, etc, you decide) and 5 people were genuine and kind did very charitable things yet the 1 last person did an evil act, and that one act is what made the headlines, because our world likes to do things like that. Focus on the negative and the positive gets overlooked.

It just reminded me of this conversation because there are people who will pretend to be transgender and assault people, but the majority of transgenders are genuine and just want to be happy and feel comfortable. And it's sad how they get categorized in with the bad eggs. I guess we just have to ask ourselves, when do the problems overtake the good?
 

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I have no issue with transgenders, but there is a biological difference between men and woman. Anyone who disagrees is in denial. Men are naturally stronger than woman. Sure, there are some beefy, stronk women out there, but a man who trains just as hard and just as long is going to overpower here. There's just a difference between being a naturally more muscular woman and being born a man with an already muscular advantage.

I hate to deny transgenders anything, including their love for sports, but there's a clear disadvantage when you allow something like this in sports. The trans person is going to have a boost in their performance because of their biological makeup.

It's a very sensitive topic because, yea, as a whole the world is slowly moving closer to the acceptance of transgenders. There are still plenty of rude people. I have LGBT+ friends, many of them and I'm all for their equality. However, this isn't a situation that's just black and white. She had a clear advantage in the race and that was unfair imo.

If a female to male transgender competed in a race, I would feel the same way even if he would be putting himself to a disadvantage because of his biological make up originally being female. If he'd won no one would probably be complaining, but that's not really the point. We congratulate people who work hard for their accomplishments, but we shrug off people who get a boost on the way. That's what this is I guess.
 

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You miss the point and I'm not here to discuss whether transgender are rule abiding people or not. That's not the point of discussion. It's simply that if there is a difference between a transgender women and woman and whether women should be forced to compete with trans-women in women's sports or forced to share space with trans women in shelters designated to women.

Trans women do not to compete with men or share shelters for the same reason. - or we are to assume all men are criminal unless they are trans gender? You are concerned for them- make provisions for them without endangering women or forcing women to compete with biologically different group. Female boxers getting hammered by trans women is not giving women their own space.
Was just trying to make more discussion... and that is what discussions do, they get branched off because one thing leads to another. If you're not here for that I understand...

I don't miss the point. I get it. Should they be put in the same category of things, is it fair, is it right, etc. You make a good point about the shelters, it makes sense. I am just positioning myself as the "devils advocate" in this discussion because it offers more points and things to talk about. I am trying to picture this from the opposite side as everyone else. Such as, they don't share shelters, but they have already started sharing bathrooms. Which in your links, have been proven to cause harm to other people because of people faking things. However, there are a vast majority who use the bathroom just fine. You wouldn't even know that they were once a man/woman in some cases. Devil advocate question: if a female isn't comfortable with a transgendered person using their bathroom, why is it okay for the transgendered person to have to suffer? Because you could also ask, if a trasngendered person is not comfortable using their original gendered shelter/restroom/sport/whatever, why should they have to suffer? At the end of the day, people are people and we all have emotions.

No matter what the world likes, transgenders are a thing and it's only going to grow. So more questions like this will begin to rise. I see both sides of the spectrum and I don't firmly sway to one opinion...

I already shared my opinion on the sports delima, and the boxing delima in which I agreed with what you are saying mostly... I was just trying to offer up a realitve discussion to this one and more questions for debate, I literally see both sides and it's fine if you don't want to continue the discussion in the direction It was forming.
 
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It's really not that hard. Competitions are divided based on ***, because of the physiological differences between man and woman. This has to do with ***, not gender. You can claim your body doesn't make you feel comfortable but you still have those advantages of being a man. Gender Reassignment and HRT may make the gap closer but a lot of advantages, you can't get rid of. Either you compete with the men or don't compete. If you're concerned you're too weak to, then that's too bad.

It's the people overseeing the competitions that should get shit for not being competent enough to solve these issues.
 
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Avani said:
You miss the point and I'm not here to discuss whether transgender are rule abiding people or not. That's not the point of discussion. It's simply that if there is a difference between a transgender women and woman and whether women should be forced to compete with trans-women in women's sports or forced to share space with trans women in shelters designated to women.

Trans women do not to compete with men or share shelters for the same reason. - or we are to assume all men are criminal unless they are trans gender? You are concerned for them- make provisions for them without endangering women or forcing women to compete with biologically different group. Female boxers getting hammered by trans women is not giving women their own space.
Was just trying to make more discussion... and that is what discussions do, they get branched off because one thing leads to another. If you're not here for that I understand...

I don't miss the point. I get it. Should they be put in the same category of things, is it fair, is it right, etc. You make a good point about the shelters, it makes sense. I am just positioning myself as the "devils advocate" in this discussion because it offers more points and things to talk about. I am trying to picture this from the opposite side as everyone else. Such as, they don't share shelters, but they have already started sharing bathrooms. Which in your links, have been proven to cause harm to other people because of people faking things. However, there are a vast majority who use the bathroom just fine. You wouldn't even know that they were once a man/woman in some cases. Devil advocate question: if a female isn't comfortable with a transgendered person using their bathroom, why is it okay for the transgendered person to have to suffer? Because you could also ask, if a trasngendered person is not comfortable using their original gendered shelter/restroom/sport/whatever, why should they have to suffer? At the end of the day, people are people and we all have emotions.

No matter what the world likes, transgenders are a thing and it's only going to grow. So more questions like this will begin to rise. I see both sides of the spectrum and I don't firmly sway to one opinion...

I already shared my opinion on the sports delima, and the boxing delima in which I agreed with what you are saying mostly... I was just trying to offer up a realitve discussion to this one and more questions for debate, I literally see both sides and it's fine if you don't want to continue the discussion in the direction It was forming.
I'm not interested in shifting the focus from the issue at hand. I'm talking about women's right to have their own competitions or spaces where they don't have to face navy trained boxers with male body and navy training in women's sports and not be endangered/harassed. Transgender can have their rights but women don't have to be pushed off the stage in their own little space and reduced to secondary position even in there.
 

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I mean, yeah? What else are you gonna call someone like that? Weird by definition pertains to abnormal and uncanny things, and I am sure artificial hormones being put into your body qualifies as being just that. Especially when you then go on to win a women's tournament with your superior biological abilities.
I would only let them compete in their own events like paralympians. Personally I'd call it the regressed games.
 

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I think its funny how they don't accept that biologically there are only two genders male and female. This alone should end how someone feels. But really? We should ignore scientific evidence over emotions?
 

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I'm not interested in shifting the focus from the issue at hand. I'm talking about women's right to have their own competitions or spaces where they don't have to face navy trained boxers with male body and navy training in women's sports and not be endangered/harassed. Transgender can have their rights but women don't have to be pushed off the stage in their own little space and reduced to secondary position even in there.
There was really no main focus/issue. You asked for opinions on the article(s) and that was it... and so I gave mine on multiple factors that affect transgenders and women. It's not like the transgenders mean to hurt or upset nor harass the women. I would say that it's the government's problem for allowing such things. The transgender just wanted to run her/his race, which he had done on multiple occasions and lost to the same woman that is complaining... and the government can't refuse him/her. They either place them on the woman's team, or the man's team. If on the man's team, the transgender would most likely lose constantly because of their hormone changes. But that is okay and fair? Yeah, I think women should only have to face woman. In simpler times it was like that. However, now there are trasngenders and in some circumstances (except when the trasngendered has lost multiple times to that same woman apparently) it is unfair.
 

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Any opinions?
Becuase personally I think thats unfair as hell. He may think that hes a woman, I dont care, but the fact is, he still has clear physical advantage over biological female, even after a hormone therapy, its to enough to just see how hes built.
He/she doesn't look like a woman at all. Of course is unfair... It's like a gender play with the purpose of winning.
 
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There was really no main focus/issue. You asked for opinions on the article(s) and that was it... and so I gave mine on multiple factors that affect transgenders and women. It's not like the transgenders mean to hurt or upset nor harass the women. I would say that it's the government's problem for allowing such things. The transgender just wanted to run her/his race, which he had done on multiple occasions and lost to the same woman that is complaining... and the government can't refuse him/her. They either place them on the woman's team, or the man's team. If on the man's team, the transgender would most likely lose constantly because of their hormone changes. But that is okay and fair? Yeah, I think women should only have to face woman. In simpler times it was like that. However, now there are trasngenders and in some circumstances (except when the trasngendered has lost multiple times to that same woman apparently) it is unfair.
The transgender person losing to that woman before is irrelevant to the fact that they still have unfair advantages. The very fact that the transgender person is able to compete at such a level shows this. The population of transgenders compared to women? The odds of one even being there are incredibly low.

The only reason the people overseeing can't refuse them is because they're bullied by these overemotional left-wingers who don't care about facts. If they decided to refuse Rachel, I'm sure women would still compete in their races, and they would still have a lot of support.
 
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Chihaya

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The transgender person losing to that woman before is irrelevant to the fact that they still have unfair advantages. The very fact that the transgender person is able to compete at such a level shows this. The population of transgenders compared to women? The odds of one even being there are incredibly low.

The only reason the people overseeing can't refuse them is because they're bullied by these overemotional left-wingers who don't care about facts. If they decided to refuse Rachel, I'm sure women would still compete in their races, and they would still have a lot of support.
I think I will lean more on the logic of professional researchers rather than the human eye looking at the picture and assuming just because he looks built, that he is and has these crazy advantages.

As the article says,
"The researchers said that there is no evidence that transgender women have a sporting advantage over athletes born female. PhD student Beth Jones, who was involved in the study, said: “Our research has also shown that these stringent and unfair policies have a negative impact on transgender people’s experiences of sport and physical activity, even when the activity is engaged in at a recreational level, such as considering joining a local football team or going to the gym.”

The researchers suggested that if size or strength of competitors is a concern, different sporting categories not based on gender should be considered."

the reason they can't deny it is because of research and facts I guess
 

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I think I will lean more on the logic of professional researchers rather than the human eye looking at the picture and assuming just because he looks built, that he is and has these crazy advantages.

As the article says,
"The researchers said that there is no evidence that transgender women have a sporting advantage over athletes born female. PhD student Beth Jones, who was involved in the study, said: “Our research has also shown that these stringent and unfair policies have a negative impact on transgender people’s experiences of sport and physical activity, even when the activity is engaged in at a recreational level, such as considering joining a local football team or going to the gym.”

The researchers suggested that if size or strength of competitors is a concern, different sporting categories not based on gender should be considered."

the reason they can't deny it is because of research and facts I guess
No difference between man and woman for sports? Then why need to divide? Or are you saying that the paths people go through, like Reassignment surgery or HRT are enough to close the gaps between transgenders and women?

If it's the latter, like I said if you compare the population sizes of transgender people and women, you'd see that even 1 transgender winning is an over-representation of them in the sport. And this case is not the only one.

I definitely wouldn't put it passed any university research to be biased at this point given how politically charged the topic is. You said you'd lean to the logic of professors over your eye, but that's just you giving up your common sense wrongfully to someone with a title. You see it, I see it, but because they have research that wasn't available in the article, doesn't mean they're right.
 
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