On this morning of the Fourth of July in America, the anniversary marking our official announcement of separation from the British Crown, I would like to look much farther back and analyze a much, much older story. It isn't necessarily a story of freedom, but it is a story of rebellion.
Many of us are familiar with the old Hebrew/Sumerian Origin stories surrounding Adam and Eve. A few are going to jump up and suggest that Lucifer was wrongly punished for giving Adam and Eve the Fruit of Knowledge... but I consider that a fool's argument in the long run. Anyone wishing to debate that with me may start up another thread about it. I am actually going back to an EVEN older story of rebellion.
There is a lesser-known story that has become an almost cult-like knowledge of the story of Lilith. As with all very old stories, there are multiple versions and some of the more popular versions are actually satire created in the middle ages based on accounts and traditions of the time. However, the story is effectively, thus:
Adam and Lilith were created as male and female, roughly around the same time, and both from the dust of the Earth. In essence, Lilith was to be Adam's partner. However, there came a dispute when the two were having intercourse. Lilith wanted to be on top for a change, and Adam was not willing to oblige. The issue was soon taken to god, who more or less indicated that Lilith was to do as Adam instructed... and so Lilith fled the Garden, where she came to reside among demons, elsewhere, having many spawn with them.
Adam begged god to retrieve her, and Angels were sent to find her. Of course, she refused to return, after which the Angels relayed that a thousand of her children would die for every day she did not. She countered that she would kill every newborn child of Adam's, spare those placed under the name of those angels present at the 'discussion.' She did not return.
Things continue to go on with Adam in the Garden, and as he's out naming the animals with god, he starts to get a little bit of an attitude. He complains to God that, basically, he's tried fucking everything in the garden and it just ain't doing it for him. Everything else has a proper mate, why not him? Thus, while Adam is sleeping, God takes a portion of his rib and makes Eve from it... and thus begins what much of us know as the origins story of Adam and Eve.
Now, it is worth noting that there are multiple cults that have developed over the years, following a child-sacrificing goddess figure (Minerva being an Egyptian-derived example). They seem to believe that there is power to be gained from ritual sacrifice and other such things. They are evil, wrong, and have committed horrible acts of abuse against people, namely children, in their quest for a form of power they are not entitled to.
However, I see the story of Lilith as being quite tragic. Keep in mind that all of this is before Adam ate the fruit of Knowledge. At this point, Adam is basically a highly intelligent animal with no real ability to judge right and wrong - same with Lilith. They are both at a severe disadvantage when it comes to moral reasoning. It is also worth noting that, at least as far as I have been able to uncover, Lilith never actually eats the fruit of Knowledge.
This is a relatively important idea, here.
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Neon-Genesis.
Eve was, effectively, a stop-gap solution to the problem. A sort of god-frankenstein creation to appease Adam. Evangelion makes an interesting postulate... we, as humans, assume the origins story refers to us. This might be true to some extent or another, but let us consider the possibility that we (most of us, at least) are the descendants not of Adam, but of Lilith - we are the demon spawn who still have not learned right from wrong and die by the thousand every day.
It is easy to see how a different 'cult' could form, not with the belief that Lilith should be worshipped or that God (note the capital) is evil, but that the proper relationship between Adam and Lilith (or at least their respective descendants) should be restored. Eve may have been created for Adam, but Adam and Lilith were conceptualized, originally, as a pair that has been, arguably, unfulfilled because of drama.
Thus, the 'new genesis,' would be the re-unification of Adam and Lilith and the resolution to that old argument, which would likely include the fruit of knowledge for her, as well.
I do disagree with the notion that Lucifer's punishment in Eden was justified. I also want to go a step further and claim that Lucifer's punishment of being cast out of heaven for rebellion was also unjustified -- I'll be waiting on that second thread.
The story of Adam and Lilith sounds like it was ripped out from some Mesopotamian or Greek mythology; all it was missing was God himself coming down from heaven and trying to **** something. It's probably because I'm more familiar with Eve than Lilith, but assuming that both these females share the same canon, Eve better serves the human origin story than Lilith in every aspect. Honestly, how stupid would it be for humanities descent from God's grace to be a product of unmet sexual desires.
I have never watched Neon Evangelion, so I really can't address whatever analysis you're trying to make.
I do disagree with the notion that Lucifer's punishment in Eden was justified. I also want to go a step further and claim that Lucifer's punishment of being cast out of heaven for rebellion was also unjustified -- I'll be waiting on that second thread.
The story of Adam and Lilith sounds like it was ripped out from some Mesopotamian or Greek mythology; all it was missing was God himself coming down from heaven and trying to **** something. It's probably because I'm more familiar with Eve than Lilith, but assuming that both these females share the same canon, Eve better serves the human origin story than Lilith in every aspect. Honestly, how stupid would it be for humanities descent from God's grace to be a product of unmet sexual desires.
I have never watched Neon Evangelion, so I really can't address whatever analysis you're trying to make.
I was being very casual in my approach to all of this. The point wasn't, so much, to connect it to an anime, so much as it was that the anime is a common reference that many can make to the story.
There are a lot of common themes among the Greek, Sumerian, Hebrew, and Arab origins stories. Many of the names of the Hebrew Angels of the Kaballah are found among Greek Mythos, as well as Sumerian texts. Traveling further east, the names change, somewhat, but the Hindu accounts of wars among the gods in the sky hint at a very ... dynamic ... creation story. A sort of falling out among other beings as regards to how to handle humanity (or what to do with these things they created... or were they things?).
The problem with the classic Adam and Eve story is one of population. From Adam and Eve come Cain and Abel, as well as three sisters (depending upon exactly who you talk to); supposedly, it was a dispute over Abel having two of the sisters that led Cain to slay him. It is around this time, however, that the descendants of Adam just ... happen to find a bunch of other people to pair with. This presents us with a problem of where those other people came from.
It is also worth considering that, during that time, it was relatively common for tribes to consider people outside of the tribe to be 'less than' themselves. "We came from God" - while everyone else was effectively an animal, of sorts. I think you can see where this is going.
I never heard of this, but i was reading something on the internet right now. Im not sure how much of this is true, but everything is possible. Probably Lilith wanted to be equal with Adam (perhaps she was smarter) but i doubt that Adam would say anything because they didnt know much back then , it is why the God told them not to eat the forbidden fruit for the same reason.
To some degree, yes, the story is that Lilith wanted to be equal to Adam.
Lilith has, thus, been embraced by a number of 'feminists' as an icon. I caution against doing this, however, as both Adam and Lilith's behavior in the beginning is bestial in nature. Lilith's reaction to their disagreement was in the extremes, as was Adam's (and god seemed to lack the skills to mediate that dispute). Those who embrace Lilith as an icon of feminism tend to adopt an equally extreme outlook toward men and, rather than seeing it as a dispute among equal partners, turn men into an enemy who must be attacked and destroyed.
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This is going to be a far more authoritative source on the history of the legend. Of course, as with many things, it is hard to know just who has the more complete or accurate story. Archaeological finds of what the average person believed will be much like how the average person, today, believes lies and distortion of media, while far smaller numbers of people keep more accurate and complete stories guarded for generations.
I dont really think that this is true, and that people tried to change the original. So, dont believe everything they say.
Have you watched the early movies about he god and noah's ark? Cause i did and according to this image:
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Noah's ark was found on the top on the mountain after the god order (not sure his name) to gather his family and all the animals inside the ship
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and for the next 7 days there will be rain.
There are many things unexplained - but i suggest not to go into it that much.
Also there is one more thing, if you watched the Moises (the movie) and when he splitted the sea - the remains of the horses and the warriors was indeed found on the bottom of the ocean
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I was watching these movies as a kid - and i believe in it.
Dont believe what man say, cause he is just a man, not a god.
We're running off in the weeds, here. The link I gave goes to a more composed account of the tales and where they come from. In other words: "this is where we found the earliest mention of this - this is how it appeared later on, etc."
Consider a more modern event. Take the chemical attacks in Syria. What does the average person believe? What has the media printed? If archaeologists or scholars were digging through the old records of our time, what would they be most likely to find... our common, every-day account of what we heard happened... or the classified documents showing the funding trails for various groups and the proof of duplicity?
Or, rather, consider if two popular people were married, then had a divorce. What would historians find most plentiful? The every-day account and postulations made by people. The tabloids, the gossip, the cultural myths.... unless the family had detailed diaries of each person, or they later wrote autobiographies that would be preserved, then the only people who would really know what happened, potentially, are the family and close friends of it, who heard and saw things directly.
I was being very casual in my approach to all of this. The point wasn't, so much, to connect it to an anime, so much as it was that the anime is a common reference that many can make to the story.
There are a lot of common themes among the Greek, Sumerian, Hebrew, and Arab origins stories. Many of the names of the Hebrew Angels of the Kaballah are found among Greek Mythos, as well as Sumerian texts. Traveling further east, the names change, somewhat, but the Hindu accounts of wars among the gods in the sky hint at a very ... dynamic ... creation story. A sort of falling out among other beings as regards to how to handle humanity (or what to do with these things they created... or were they things?).
The problem with the classic Adam and Eve story is one of population. From Adam and Eve come Cain and Abel, as well as three sisters (depending upon exactly who you talk to); supposedly, it was a dispute over Abel having two of the sisters that led Cain to slay him. It is around this time, however, that the descendants of Adam just ... happen to find a bunch of other people to pair with. This presents us with a problem of where those other people came from.
It is also worth considering that, during that time, it was relatively common for tribes to consider people outside of the tribe to be 'less than' themselves. "We came from God" - while everyone else was effectively an animal, of sorts. I think you can see where this is going.
Aren't the origins of nearly every early biblical human accounted for? There are genealogies tracing back from Adam and Eve to Jesus Christ. I could be missing something
I wouldn't say this is the most accurate genealogy, but it's just for example
Aren't the origins of nearly every early biblical human accounted for? There are genealogies tracing back from Adam and Eve to Jesus Christ. I could be missing something
I wouldn't say this is the most accurate genealogy, but it's just for example
13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.
17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
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When Cain was kicked out of the garden to live in the Land of NOD
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He suddenly had a wife, and was also very worried about the idea that "others" would kill him. This is a bit of an interesting problem. As an aside... the plot for Command&Conquer has the temple of Nod in Sarajevo. Those following the news of archeology will know that a new round of discoveries in the region places humans in Yugoslavia substantially earlier than those found in Africa.
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Of course, this is all just coincidence. This is, obviously, just a bunch of entertaining little ideas to string together.
Established in their new home, Izanami and Izanagi decided it was time to start a family. They circled the Heavenly August Pillar, Izanagi turning to the left while Izanami moved to the right, so they met each other coming round. In spontaneous delight, Izanami exclaimed, “What a fine young man!” “What a fine young woman!” said Izanagi in response. He then complained that Izanami should have left it to him to take the initiative.
Uncertain of what to do next, the couple received some advice from two helpful wagtails. In due course, Izanami gave birth to a son, Hiruko, but the child was without limbs and boneless - a leech child. The baby was placed on a boat made of reeds and abandoned to float away to his melancholy fate. Izanami and Izanagi tried a second time but, once again, their offspring was unsatisfactory.
Crestfallen, Izanami and Izanagi returned to Heaven to ask the elder kami where they had gone wrong. The gods confirmed Izanagi’s suspicion that Izanami had done wrong in greeting her husband first. It was unnatural for the female partner to take the initiative and this was why their offspring had been misshapen. With this in mind, the couple returned to their palace to try again. This time, when they circled the pillar, Izanagi greeted his wife first and she responded appropriately.
Soon after, Izanami gave birth successively to the islands of Awaji, Shikoku, Oki Kyushu and Tsushima. Last of all, she was delivered of the largest island, Honshu. The couple gave the land they had brought into being the name of Oyashimakumi, meaning the Land of Eight Great Islands. Following this, Izanami brought forth the smaller outlying islands.
Note the similarity.
Having given birth to the land, Izanami began to give birth to the kami that would give it shape. In turn, she brought forth the kami of the sea, of the wind, of trees and mountains and other natural manifestations. In giving birth to the kami of fire, Kagutsuchi, she was burned to death, despite her husband’s attempts to save her. As Izanami died, further kami were born from her body. Death and sorrow had also entered the world.
Grief-stricken, Izanagi wept and from his tears emanated further kami. Enraged, he cut off the head of Kagutsuchi, whose birth had killed his wife. Further offspring were born from his bloody sword.
After grieving for Izanami a long time, Izanagi became determined to bring her back and set off for Yomi, the Land of the Dead. Eventually, after a long and perilous journey, Izanagi came to a great mansion guarded at the front by fearsome demons. Creeping in through a back entrance, Izanagi found his wife and there was a joyful reunion. Izanagi begged Izanami to return to the world with him, but she sadly replied that this was not possible as she had taken food while in Yomi. At Izanagi’s entreaty, however, she agreed to go and ask the resident kami if she could possibly go back with him.
Before she went, Izanami asked her husband to promise not to go right inside the mansion. He agreed, but, after a whole day had passed and she did not return Izunami could wait no longer and went inside the mansion, looking for her, using a tooth of his comb as a torch.
Wandering within the mansion by the frail light of his torch, Izunagi was horrified to come across the body of his wife, now apparent as just a rotten decaying corpse to which a number of recently born thunder-kami were still attached. In revulsion and terror, Izanagi turned to flee pursued by the spurned corpse of his wife, the thunder kami along with many warriors, and the hag of the House of the Dead.
After fighting off his pursuers, Izanagi managed to imprison Izanami in the House of the Dead by rolling up a huge rock to block the way. The entrance to Yomi, covered by the rock, is said to be Ifuya Pass, at Izumo. Thenceforth, Izanami became known as Yomotsu-o-kami, Goddess of the Dead.
Effectively, Izanami has a striking similarity to Lilith, although the Japanese rendition has the two being gods descended from multiple generations of higher gods within a sort of pantheistic model, and notably the reason for their separation is different. Interestingly, the deities Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi come from Izanagi after he bathes following his journey into Yomi.
Taking a short hop to the West, we find some interesting tales from China:
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A massive flood around 4,000 years ago, now evidenced by Science.
I am still researching into the story of Nuwa, an ancient Chinese origins deity... but here's a run-down:
13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.
17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
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When Cain was kicked out of the garden to live in the Land of NOD
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He suddenly had a wife, and was also very worried about the idea that "others" would kill him. This is a bit of an interesting problem. As an aside... the plot for Command&Conquer has the temple of Nod in Sarajevo. Those following the news of archeology will know that a new round of discoveries in the region places humans in Yugoslavia substantially earlier than those found in Africa.
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Of course, this is all just coincidence. This is, obviously, just a bunch of entertaining little ideas to string together.
Interesting. Here's a valid possibility I'm going to run by you. It's possible these matters (land of Nod, Cain getting wife, etc.) may not be occuring suddenly, but could have occurred over hundreds of years apart. If I'm not mistaken, early biblical humans lived for hundreds of years at a time, w/ Adam living nearly a century.
It wouldn't be beyond belief for Cain to have married one of the dozen or so offsprings of Adam several generations down. Also God's mentioning of 'others' could be forseen prophecy; something that would have came to fruition had God left Cain unmarked, with the others simply being members of Adams lineage.
It is important to note that characters like Lilith , Adam etc. Are allegorical characters representing spiritual states, ideas and conceptions or celestial motions of heavenly bodies as observed from the earth. These things were allegorized into the tales most are familiar with because at the time the books were made most people did not have the knowledge or the mental ability to grasp what the ancient ones were saying.
The reason why similarities exist isn't because of ripping off or copying, it is because they all originate from the same source and state similar things of course with their own unique twists based on the culture and times of where and when they were written. E.g Buddha=Hermes=Thoth
Taking advantage of human ignorance those who created so called Institutionalized religion turned allegories into real people and places and stated that those allegories need to be revered and worshiped. There was no Lillith, never has, never will be.
Interesting. Here's a valid possibility I'm going to run by you. It's possible these matters (land of Nod, Cain getting wife, etc.) may not be occuring suddenly, but could have occurred over hundreds of years apart. If I'm not mistaken, early biblical humans lived for hundreds of years at a time, w/ Adam living nearly a century.
This is one possible theory/interpretation. I generally look at it without worrying too much about time. Trying to do an accounting of the years seems to be a rather silly endeavor when we are literally dealing with a few paragraphs of explanation.
It wouldn't be beyond belief for Cain to have married one of the dozen or so offsprings of Adam several generations down. Also God's mentioning of 'others' could be forseen prophecy; something that would have came to fruition had God left Cain unmarked, with the others simply being members of Adams lineage.
This is not impossible, but then why are only three children; Cain, Abel, and Seth, mentioned? Genesis 4 gives quite the list of names and who-is-who from Adam as well as who was birthed from Cain, birthed from those individuals, and who was also birthed from Seth.
It is more likely, in my opinion, that Adam's descendants saw themselves as 'humans' while the other people were 'human-like.' If we take the idea that Lilith descended to Earth and then produced offspring with 'demons' - IE - those "human-like" things, then we have a more workable story.
It is important to note that characters like Lilith , Adam etc. Are allegorical characters representing spiritual states, ideas and conceptions or celestial motions of heavenly bodies as observed from the earth. These things were allegorized into the tales most are familiar with because at the time the books were made most people did not have the knowledge or the mental ability to grasp what the ancient ones were saying.
This is the classical "academic" answer that, frankly, is just dull and boring. While there is certainly value at looking at these tales as being allegorical and metaphorical, it pretty much stops at that.
Consider, for a moment, the consistency of these ancient tales across the various cultures. Beings from the sky creating gods of a sort of pantheon, who create and/or manage humans before sort of fading into the background of society. While one could argue that, since all humans have a common biological origin, it is likely that we have a common set of spiritual or religious stories, as well. (I am not convinced that is truly the case, but that is a whole different debate regarding racial genetic traits; while there was certainly a common denominator, racial traits appear extremely quickly and humanity's explosion across the planet defies evolutionary time-frames and archeological evidence is pointing at Yugoslavia as a point of origin for the earliest humans and civilization, rather than Mesopotamia or Africa, which is extremely troubling as it shows very advanced use of tools well before human beings were supposed to have tools), the problem with that idea is that many of these populations diverged long before we saw organized systems of language. To have such consistency implies more than simple allegory, and it also implies events of real historical value.
The reason why similarities exist isn't because of ripping off or copying, it is because they all originate from the same source and state similar things of course with their own unique twists based on the culture and times of where and when they were written. E.g Buddha=Hermes=Thoth
So, old English tales of origin match up with Japanese and Aztec tales of origin because....?
Now, again, I would cede this point to you, if it weren't for the fact that the Aztecs were hauling 50 ton blocks of granite over 1000 meters up a sheer cliff face and/or hundreds of miles through mountainous terrain to build temples back before they were supposed to have so much as bronze tools. Then there are the weird engineering choices they made regarding a high-crystalline quartz lining of tunnels beneath one of their temples (this might have been the Inca... I'd have to go back and check - either way, it was a fully encapsulated layer that was neither for ornate nor structural purpose, and required a massive investment of additional time and labor to produce).
We see a similar pattern among many ancient civilizations with regard to monolithic structures and heavy emphasis on extremely accurate celestial time keeping. Far, FAR more accurate than planting cycles, they were tracking the precession of the equinox. Which is very interesting, as you'll soon find out... because it's not due to wobble in the Earth's axis. The Sun is in a binary orbit around another entity yet to be identified, but is responsible for the shear edge of the Kuiper Belt, which gives us an orbital period of around 24,000 years and an orbital distance... allowing us to estimate its mass to be something beneath a failed brown dwarf.
Taking advantage of human ignorance those who created so called Institutionalized religion turned allegories into real people and places and stated that those allegories need to be revered and worshiped. There was no Lillith, never has, never will be.
Such a boring and useless conclusion. All is already known. There is no need for further analysis or evaluation. Cease and desist your ventures into the past records. There is nothing to see here. Move along.
You are telling me that the same allegory was simultaneously formulated across multiple societies and distilled into strikingly similar accounts. Sure, that's possible, but relatively absurd in its own right. To suggest that the Aztecs would have similar stories to the Japanese and the English after these populations were separated (supposedly) LONG before language became much of a thing, is just as absurd, to me, as to suggest we are the product of an extra-terrestrial project to modify life on this planet that led to a falling-out among those ETs and a subsequent dispersion of their pet projects into the populations of the planet.
Take, for example, more recent American legends: Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, John Henry, and Joe Magarac. These are purely fictional characters, but represent an entire culture of people within an industry. Paul Bunyan isn't an allegory about macho men felling trees, nor is John Henry an allegory of man versus machine; they are the distillation of a real set of people who existed and tales of the lives they lived (perhaps somewhat exaggerated).
Some of these figures, such as Davy Crockett and Johnny Appleseed, are historical people who did exist, and while their tales of success have been embellished, they very much existed, lived, and touched the culture around them. The fact that legends of Davy Crockett will likely survive a hypothetical apocalypse where all structured information is lost doesn't change the fact that they lived, nor the impact they had on society.
While I will admit to being arrogant in regard to my approach and handling of other people, it astonishes me how arrogant many people are when approaching history and the world around them. Rather than approaching the world with awe and wonder at what can be discovered, they wish to simply impose a decree as to how the world is and has been. It's an incredibly inflexible position that makes little sense to me. I will always be among the intellectual elite of the world. There may be gaps in knowledge and developed talent/ability, but the people I truly count among my peers can be counted on my fingers.
That said, in spite of all my confidence in my cranial capacity... all it takes is a single repeatable experiment to prove me wrong. A single historical discovery to turn a theory I have carefully crafted to account for everything on its head. In that regard, the world is far more interesting than people. People will live and die, stuck in their own narrow view of how the world works. Many require the world to be a certain way in order for them to function. They simply reject facts and evidence to the contrary.
I am not saying you can't be right. That is always a possibility. It just seems a possibility that is dubious, and should be challenged, simply because it leads to a rather dead-end of a conclusion.
This is the classical "academic" answer that, frankly, is just dull and boring. While there is certainly value at looking at these tales as being allegorical and metaphorical, it pretty much stops at that.
Consider, for a moment, the consistency of these ancient tales across the various cultures. Beings from the sky creating gods of a sort of pantheon, who create and/or manage humans before sort of fading into the background of society. While one could argue that, since all humans have a common biological origin, it is likely that we have a common set of spiritual or religious stories, as well. (I am not convinced that is truly the case, but that is a whole different debate regarding racial genetic traits; while there was certainly a common denominator, racial traits appear extremely quickly and humanity's explosion across the planet defies evolutionary time-frames and archeological evidence is pointing at Yugoslavia as a point of origin for the earliest humans and civilization, rather than Mesopotamia or Africa, which is extremely troubling as it shows very advanced use of tools well before human beings were supposed to have tools), the problem with that idea is that many of these populations diverged long before we saw organized systems of language. To have such consistency implies more than simple allegory, and it also implies events of real historical value.
The problem here is the classical linear approach of considering human beings which has its routes in the evolution theory. Personally I am not part of the group of people who believe that humanity moves forward in one direction which means that those who came before are more primitive than those who came after. For me it is possible for humanity to oscillate from advanced to backward and vice versa. So that can explain the advanced use of tools by ancient people. As for the trouble with regards to the distribution of ancient people in what would be Yugoslavia at one time before languages that can merely be as a result of insufficient information, perhaps in the future evidence of a language would emerge. I think it's a bit too soon to regard any unexplained phenomenon as the work of extraterrestrials, gods or what have you.
Regarding beings depicted as managing humanity you need to look deeply into the beliefs of these people and try to analyse what the texts are saying, not everything is in plain sight. Even the ancient Greeks spoke of people writing in parables and allegories, this is consistently found in all religious books and writings of people of that time. These beings could merely be representations of a higher consciousness in a similar way to how Hindu's depict some Devas as guides for humanity, with the Devas being positive archetypes. Some other depictions are merely zodiac symbols, I would use the Bible this time. Book of Revelation (4:1-3) " After this I looked, and, behold a door was opened in heaven...and,behold, a throne was set in heaven and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon a jasper and sardine stone..." This is referring to the zodiac Cassiopeia. Cassiopeia is depicted on zodiac charts as enthroned (throne of god) and the Jasper and sardine stone is a reference to the milky way rift that sits behind Cassiopeia evidence that supports this is shown thus Book of Revelation (4:3) "And there was a rainbow, round about the throne, in sight like unto crystal". This being the rift of the milky way. The evidence is clear, if I was to use how you want to look at it we would assume that man went to heaven and saw God's throne surrounded by an emerald rainbow and adorned with jasper and sardine stone. All people had a similar message and despite humanity's numbers and diversity we are very similar to one another. This isn't about whether you or I like it or find it boring or not. Our feelings do not shape the truth.
So, old English tales of origin match up with Japanese and Aztec tales of origin because....?
Now, again, I would cede this point to you, if it weren't for the fact that the Aztecs were hauling 50 ton blocks of granite over 1000 meters up a sheer cliff face and/or hundreds of miles through mountainous terrain to build temples back before they were supposed to have so much as bronze tools. Then there are the weird engineering choices they made regarding a high-crystalline quartz lining of tunnels beneath one of their temples (this might have been the Inca... I'd have to go back and check - either way, it was a fully encapsulated layer that was neither for ornate nor structural purpose, and required a massive investment of additional time and labor to produce).
We see a similar pattern among many ancient civilizations with regard to monolithic structures and heavy emphasis on extremely accurate celestial time keeping. Far, FAR more accurate than planting cycles, they were tracking the precession of the equinox. Which is very interesting, as you'll soon find out... because it's not due to wobble in the Earth's axis. The Sun is in a binary orbit around another entity yet to be identified, but is responsible for the shear edge of the Kuiper Belt, which gives us an orbital period of around 24,000 years and an orbital distance... allowing us to estimate its mass to be something beneath a failed brown dwarf.
Perhaps I was not clear, nobody said all tales are related. What I said was religious tales are related. Not everyone has a copy of 3 little pigs obviously. There is no doubt that the religions of the world are different from each other but there is also no doubt that the religions of the world are similar and share rather some fundamentals with one another. e.g the obsession with the zodiac, having a heaven and an underworld, the importance of the sun and the moon. In the Quran God even swears by the stars. You can't deny these things, boring or otherwise.
Such a boring and useless conclusion. All is already known. There is no need for further analysis or evaluation. Cease and desist your ventures into the past records. There is nothing to see here. Move along.
You are telling me that the same allegory was simultaneously formulated across multiple societies and distilled into strikingly similar accounts. Sure, that's possible, but relatively absurd in its own right. To suggest that the Aztecs would have similar stories to the Japanese and the English after these populations were separated (supposedly) LONG before language became much of a thing, is just as absurd, to me, as to suggest we are the product of an extra-terrestrial project to modify life on this planet that led to a falling-out among those ETs and a subsequent dispersion of their pet projects into the populations of the planet.
Take, for example, more recent American legends: Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, John Henry, and Joe Magarac. These are purely fictional characters, but represent an entire culture of people within an industry. Paul Bunyan isn't an allegory about macho men felling trees, nor is John Henry an allegory of man versus machine; they are the distillation of a real set of people who existed and tales of the lives they lived (perhaps somewhat exaggerated).
Some of these figures, such as Davy Crockett and Johnny Appleseed, are historical people who did exist, and while their tales of success have been embellished, they very much existed, lived, and touched the culture around them. The fact that legends of Davy Crockett will likely survive a hypothetical apocalypse where all structured information is lost doesn't change the fact that they lived, nor the impact they had on society.
While I will admit to being arrogant in regard to my approach and handling of other people, it astonishes me how arrogant many people are when approaching history and the world around them. Rather than approaching the world with awe and wonder at what can be discovered, they wish to simply impose a decree as to how the world is and has been. It's an incredibly inflexible position that makes little sense to me. I will always be among the intellectual elite of the world. There may be gaps in knowledge and developed talent/ability, but the people I truly count among my peers can be counted on my fingers.
That said, in spite of all my confidence in my cranial capacity... all it takes is a single repeatable experiment to prove me wrong. A single historical discovery to turn a theory I have carefully crafted to account for everything on its head. In that regard, the world is far more interesting than people. People will live and die, stuck in their own narrow view of how the world works. Many require the world to be a certain way in order for them to function. They simply reject facts and evidence to the contrary.
I am not saying you can't be right. That is always a possibility. It just seems a possibility that is dubious, and should be challenged, simply because it leads to a rather dead-end of a conclusion.
Never said you can't look further into things, that's how we all gain knowledge. My post in this thread isn't me coming with an oppressive stance to show superior knowledge or anything more like my desire to put my input into a thread that caught my interest. I did not think my post would be so useless to you, oh well.
Never did I say these stories were created simultaneously some came before, others afterwards. What I am going to be clear about is that the stories were created by those with more knowledge for those with less, so that the knowledge won't be forgotten and when the ones with knowledge see through the allegories they can learn what the wiser ones knew/know. An example is me telling a kid that he/she should not approach the kitchen stove at night when everyone is in bed because there is a monster there. Obviously there is no monster but the child doesn't know yet. When they grow up they realize it was just a tale but the tale had a purpose which was to protect the child from touching something dangerous in the absence of adult supervision. There are other examples.
Language must have definitely been a thing, do you think a civilization can be built without language? The absence of evidence of a language cannot be the evidence of absence.
Those figures you represented are indeed used, they are physical beings that lived/live that embody an intangible concept. There was a man in the past called Benjamin Yousef( I think I got the name right) who preached peace and was an enemy of the state, his life story was taken and merged with the messiah idea and thus is believed by some to be the origin of how Jesus is depicted today. Not saying this is a fact but a possibility. So yes some of these people could have been based on people who existed but the characters as depicted in the texts always represent an idea rather than just the history of someone who lived.
I hope you are not referring to me, as an engineer who uses scientific knowledge and principles everyday, I can tell you I am at awe at the universe and am open to new ideas, it's in my job description. I did not always hold the opinion that I expressed in this thread, the fact that I could change is proof enough that I don't think my knowledge is absolute. Well you are open to challenge my view as is anyone else, this is a platform that allows such. Understand that I am not imposing my view just expressing an opinion. Sad to see you think it is a dead-end, but remember reality does not have to conform to our desires.
Taking advantage of human ignorance those who created so called Institutionalized religion turned allegories into real people and places and stated that those allegories need to be revered and worshiped. There was no Lillith, never has, never will be.
The problem here is the classical linear approach of considering human beings which has its routes in the evolution theory. Personally I am not part of the group of people who believe that humanity moves forward in one direction which means that those who came before are more primitive than those who came after. For me it is possible for humanity to oscillate from advanced to backward and vice versa. So that can explain the advanced use of tools by ancient people. As for the trouble with regards to the distribution of ancient people in what would be Yugoslavia at one time before languages that can merely be as a result of insufficient information, perhaps in the future evidence of a language would emerge. I think it's a bit too soon to regard any unexplained phenomenon as the work of extraterrestrials, gods or what have you.
Sure, it is certainly true that humanity has possibly oscillated between states of relative technological advance and then collapse. It has happened in the past, multiple times, across multiple cultures.
The problem is simply what each of us see as relative evidence and how we view people. Your thought process is that humans have started from slime and clawed their way up to where we are, now. Purely an animal which has conquered nature. I see humans in a very different light. I generally see humans as having fallen from a greatness long since squandered and forgotten, looking to reclaim that prior title even in ignorance.
Regarding beings depicted as managing humanity you need to look deeply into the beliefs of these people and try to analyse what the texts are saying, not everything is in plain sight. Even the ancient Greeks spoke of people writing in parables and allegories, this is consistently found in all religious books and writings of people of that time. These beings could merely be representations of a higher consciousness in a similar way to how Hindu's depict some Devas as guides for humanity, with the Devas being positive archetypes. Some other depictions are merely zodiac symbols, I would use the Bible this time. Book of Revelation (4:1-3) " After this I looked, and, behold a door was opened in heaven...and,behold, a throne was set in heaven and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon a jasper and sardine stone..." This is referring to the zodiac Cassiopeia. Cassiopeia is depicted on zodiac charts as enthroned (throne of god) and the Jasper and sardine stone is a reference to the milky way rift that sits behind Cassiopeia evidence that supports this is shown thus Book of Revelation (4:3) "And there was a rainbow, round about the throne, in sight like unto crystal". This being the rift of the milky way. The evidence is clear, if I was to use how you want to look at it we would assume that man went to heaven and saw God's throne surrounded by an emerald rainbow and adorned with jasper and sardine stone. All people had a similar message and despite humanity's numbers and diversity we are very similar to one another. This isn't about whether you or I like it or find it boring or not. Our feelings do not shape the truth.
You're speaking to me like you would speak to a ten year old with a post-graduate vocabulary. "You see, little Jimmy, people back then spoke in rhyme and riddles and so while it says there was a rainbow around the throne..." Which is missing the forest for the trees.
Perhaps I was not clear, nobody said all tales are related. What I said was religious tales are related. Not everyone has a copy of 3 little pigs obviously. There is no doubt that the religions of the world are different from each other but there is also no doubt that the religions of the world are similar and share rather some fundamentals with one another. e.g the obsession with the zodiac, having a heaven and an underworld, the importance of the sun and the moon. In the Quran God even swears by the stars. You can't deny these things, boring or otherwise.
"Someone get all these trees out of the way! I can't see the forest!"
Walk with me for a moment. As The Earth Dragon, I shall be your guide:
We'll start with the Dragons of Europe and the Middle East.
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That is one of the oldest known depictions of a dragon in Italy. This is well after humans have spread all over creation. The maya, around this time, are busy making stone monoliths in South America. Or... one of them, I'd have to go back and double-check the dates. They just used Lidar mapping to find the remains of a hidden ancient metropolis within the jungles of South America - so that will end up being fun for people to dig in. Far larger than anything predicted.
Anyway - dragons of this time are partially associated with Leviathan. At this time, the Dragon was largely a symbol used for authority and rule.
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Moving a bit West to the Germanic tribes, we run into the Lindworm. The Lindworm is a serpentine creature that occasionally has wings. Fafnir was a Lindworm. Dragons, in this concept, are generally depicted as fearsome creatures, but also to great power and hereditary power. Many Germanic Coats of Arms feature dragons as either symbols of who their ancestors vanquished (then ate them and gained their power), or as claims of their own ancestry - literal descendants or incarnations of dragons (such as myself, though my Coat of Arms is long since lost, and one has to factor in some aspects from the matriarchal side of things, as well).
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We rebound back toward the Slavic territory, where we run into Zmey and Ala. Ala are generally malevolent dragons that become a bit more terrestrial and resembling what most understand as the European Dragon, today. Zmey are often a less malevolent type of entity, but no less dangerous. Dragons are still symbols of power and often hold the tales of lost knowledge, being old creatures with a connection to the gods. Zmey are often a sort of 'monkey's paw' or 'genie' type of figure. You are rarely getting what you want for free, or in exactly the manner you think you are going to get it.
This is where we can take a jog into Slavic mythology and address the pantheon. This is where we get into the World Tree/"Ygdrassil" comes into play, which is another one of those 'oddly common metaphors' found the world over. However, I would like to address Veles for a moment. Veles is part of the Slavic Pantheon and is something of a rival figure to Perun; the two aren't necessarily enemies, but we're talking a sort of Hades/Zeus or Loki/Thor relationship, here. Anyway - one of the aspects of Veles is that he is occasionally noted as being in the form of a Zmey, and loves to play tricks on people through deception and tests of wit and wile.
Catching the similarity? This is long before Christianity made inroads to the Slavic regions.
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Re-visiting the Middle East, again, we get to the truly ancient legends to include Tiamat and Apsu. The Dragon of Chaos and the Dragon of Order, respectfully. Rather than adversarial, their relationship is that of wife and husband; or of mutual consorts... when you're primordial gods, you don't really get much of a choice in partners.
There is Zu and the Tablet of Destinies as another fun and curious tale of dragons doing dragon things. Again... all meaning stops at the metaphor, I am sure.
I classify most Egyptian mythos within that of the Middle East. Africa has a range of its own dragons that follow a similar pattern, but it's also a rather incomplete record due to a lack of written languages and detailed archaeological/scholarly work into the middle continent of Africa.
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Heading further East (sorry India, we're going to skip over you for now), we run into the QUITE the dragon mythos, considering the whole of the Chinese Empire is built around the idea that its nobility is descended from the divine... who is/was a mortal who became a God and in so doing became a dragon.
Dragons throughout Asia are generally seen as more benevolent creatures, but are not to be trifled with. In a similar vein, when telling of how the animals of the Chinese Zodiac became ordered as they were, the Jade Emperor (God) held a race among the Zodiac animals. The Dragon came in Fifth. Confused, God asked him why. The Dragon replied "Well, as I was flying along, I heard villagers praying for rain, so I did that. Then there was this rabbit about to drown in the river, so I saved the rabbit with a gust of wind. You know, stuff that's more important than your race, God."
That should pretty much sum up dragons in China.
Japan is more or less a reflection of that.
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(Not only am I a dragon, my continent is, as well.)
Warping like a Star-Gate across the Pacific ("land bridge"), The North American cultures find little structured records or traditions. While there are burial mounds in the shape of large serpents that have been noted, we have rather sparse tales of ancient serpent creatures. Dragons become much more sparse in symbolism in North America.
There's a humorous account of Stvkwvnaya - a Seminole legend of a horned serpent who was summoned using chants in an effort to gain its horn for use as an aphrodisiac.
Kolowissi is a more classic account of a water serpent who lorded over spirits as a form of demigod. He got upset with a local villager near the mountain he ruled for constantly bathing in his spring and effectively claimed her as his wife after transforming into a young man.
Then... we get to South America:
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With civilization, we see the return of dragons and all their fury.
Quetzalcoatl is the spitting image of an Asian dragon and Lindworm. The manifestation of the Sun, the God of twin births, the one who created the Calendar, brought rain, brought fire, and was a creator deity.
In a somewhat interesting tradition, the Aztec often believed that the eclipse was the World Serpent attempting to devour Quetzalcoatl, a sort of play off of the Chinese notion of a dragon trying to eat the Sun. This is effectively the same entity across all of the major Central and South American civilizations.
Never said you can't look further into things, that's how we all gain knowledge. My post in this thread isn't me coming with an oppressive stance to show superior knowledge or anything more like my desire to put my input into a thread that caught my interest. I did not think my post would be so useless to you, oh well.
Never did I say these stories were created simultaneously some came before, others afterwards. What I am going to be clear about is that the stories were created by those with more knowledge for those with less, so that the knowledge won't be forgotten and when the ones with knowledge see through the allegories they can learn what the wiser ones knew/know. An example is me telling a kid that he/she should not approach the kitchen stove at night when everyone is in bed because there is a monster there. Obviously there is no monster but the child doesn't know yet. When they grow up they realize it was just a tale but the tale had a purpose which was to protect the child from touching something dangerous in the absence of adult supervision. There are other examples.
You're missing the forest for the trees, again. Why are dragons so ubiquitous in their presence and symbolism? There's a bit of a problem because the Chinese weren't supposed to have been the ones to have migrated across the land bridge. That would have been people we identify as Slavs - the Germanic tribes pushing into the frozen hellscape of Siberia. Why do we find an almost carbon copy of Chinese mythos among Central and South America. . . . after they traveled through North America for untold amounts of time and showed no signs of preserving even much of the proto-cultures they would have come from?
You see where I level my criticisms of your approach from?
Language must have definitely been a thing, do you think a civilization can be built without language? The absence of evidence of a language cannot be the evidence of absence.
Again, see above. The estimated times of the traversal of the land bridge would have been prior to any extant written language. We were still drawing pictures of animals on cave walls with charcoal and hand't yet quite gotten our minds wrapped around a bow and arrow. It was all pointy sticks and the atl'atl... or however you spell that thing. Even if we make the argument for oscillating humanity, we are at a serious loss for explaining the similar depictions of dragons both in imagery and symbolically with their connection to deities, knowledge, and power.
Those figures you represented are indeed used, they are physical beings that lived/live that embody an intangible concept. There was a man in the past called Benjamin Yousef( I think I got the name right) who preached peace and was an enemy of the state, his life story was taken and merged with the messiah idea and thus is believed by some to be the origin of how Jesus is depicted today. Not saying this is a fact but a possibility. So yes some of these people could have been based on people who existed but the characters as depicted in the texts always represent an idea rather than just the history of someone who lived.
I hope you are not referring to me, as an engineer who uses scientific knowledge and principles everyday, I can tell you I am at awe at the universe and am open to new ideas, it's in my job description. I did not always hold the opinion that I expressed in this thread, the fact that I could change is proof enough that I don't think my knowledge is absolute. Well you are open to challenge my view as is anyone else, this is a platform that allows such. Understand that I am not imposing my view just expressing an opinion. Sad to see you think it is a dead-end, but remember reality does not have to conform to our desires.
There was a time I believed in god.
Then, I witnessed the destruction of the world, the chaos unfolding, the lack of any seeming control... and god died before my very eyes.
It was in this search through the rubble afterward, in the endless quest for the ultimate, where I found God, in which I believe.
When the cries of the world were again heard, a dragon was birthed again from his slumber. Peer to no mortal, second only to the spark of Life and the timeless wisdom of Physics, itself.
Anything claiming itself to be a god before me will be evaluated and judged... and handily destroyed if that is what the judgment decrees. Even the Angels will be judged and cut from their place if found unworthy. Order must be brought to my house, and my house has room for all of humanity.
That is metaphor. Somewhat. I'm still not fully developed into the role, but it's coming along. Even the restless Tiamat will be brought to some peace (she was reborn, just as I was). Little miss abyss and her people of many faces. The dragon of the north devours the soul through the mind, the shadow warrior: Genbu. Tablet of Destinies, indeed.
Between (you) and me, whoever falls in love first loses.
