Analysing Kurenai's Genjutsu

[BenjerminGaye]

I dont know bro you tell me? She's on all 4s with slide marks in the first panel. She ducks and slides to avoid Itachi's attack. I'm pretty sure it's possible for her to drop it somewhere off panel.

Either way as I'm done repeating myself.

Did she drop the tree off panel as well?

What about the blood?
She had time to wipe that off before blocking itachi's attack?

Let's assume she did drop it. Where is it on the floor? we know she's by asuma's general area when she 'dropped it' how come we don't see it on the floor in literally every subsequent scan?


Youre done repeating yourself cuz you weren't saying sh!t to begin with.

The only time she even held a fckin kunai in the real world is the one she got from kakashi iirc.

 

[Icelerate]

He's obviously trolling guys, chill lol.

Wait who is the one trolling? I know the answer should be obvious but at this point, I can't expect the obvious.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Could she block it or not it doesn't matter at all ,what matters is that Sasuke kunai being dropped is shown on panel ,Kurenai's isn't.

The difference being hundreds of chapters worth of experience. There was a shit ton of times similar things happened in this manga earlier on. Like, what happened to Naruto's kunai? It was in his right hand.

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There was never a sign of it on the ground & don't expect me to believe Naruto returned the kunai to his pocket while being attacked?
What happened to Sasuke's kunai? Did he put it up while being pierced by senbons?

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Or were those kunai genjutsu?

Ultimately, it is clearly unreliable to point at the lack of a kunai when Kishimoto handled them very poorly early on in the series after a character finished waving them around. What matters most here is the fact that Itachi clearly had a kunai & cut Kurenai's hair. If you could refute that, I'd agree with what you say.

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[Mellanoma]

The fact that the genjutsu worked against Solo King is enough for me to believe in her abilities.

As for the Kunai Argument. Its hard to say since Kishi is VERY inconsistent with Kunai discarding / dropping after it leaves the opponents hand.

Hidan vs Asuma is another example of this.

Where is the Kunai Asuma deflected and separated the blade and hilt AFTER the scan below.

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[Cariostar]

I don’t really know what to think about this... However, I would like to point that Databook 1 implies that Genjutsu may be able to cause physical damage, although admittedly this may just mean something else.

Genjutsu

Hypnosis and illusionism to confuse the mind…

It’s some kind of hypnotic technique that drags the target’s mind to an illusory world and may cause confusion or physical/mental exhaustion. The main difference from other jutsu is that it does not directly affects the user’s body. There are many types of Genjutsu that may be used to attack or give a handicap to those who use them.

Advantages: It’s hard to detect who used it. Not only that, there can be many targets all at once.

Disadvantages: Prolonged use exhausts the user and it hardly deals physical damage to the target.

The target falls in the trap without realizing it…

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

The fact that the genjutsu worked against Solo King is enough for me to believe in her abilities.

As for the Kunai Argument. Its hard to say since Kishi is VERY inconsistent with Kunai discarding / dropping after it leaves the opponents hand.

Hidan vs Asuma is another example of this.

Where is the Kunai Asuma deflected and separated the blade and hilt?

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SABOTAGE! The kunai's hilt is seen flying behind him & the part he severed seems to be a blade rather than a kunai's tip. You can see the blade fall to the ground.

 

[FlyingRaijinLVL2]

Wait who is the one trolling? I know the answer should be obvious but at this point, I can't expect the obvious.

The Salamander dude.

 

[salamander uchiha]

Did she drop the tree off panel as well?

What about the blood?
She had time to wipe that off before blocking itachi's attack?

Let's assume she did drop it. Where is it on the floor? we know she's by asuma's general area when she 'dropped it' how come we don't see it on the floor in literally every subsequent scan?


Youre done repeating yourself cuz you weren't saying sh!t to begin with.

The only time she even held a fckin kunai in the real world is the one she got from kakashi iirc.

@bold: no she wasn't in Asuma's general area she moved away from him. If she was he would've been shown there especially when itachi kicked her off the edge. So your point is void.

The reason I was done was because I'd made the same points several times before if pwople can't read. I get tired of repeating. And the rest of tge reasons are addressed bg Minamoto teh first in the quoted post. Call it inconsistency if you will.

The difference being hundreds of chapters worth of experience. There was a shit ton of times similar things happened in this manga earlier on. Like, what happened to Naruto's kunai? It was in his right hand.

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There was never a sign of it on the ground & don't expect me to believe Naruto returned the kunai to his pocket while being attacked?
What happened to Sasuke's kunai? Did he put it up while being pierced by senbons?

Spoiler

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Or were those kunai genjutsu?

Ultimately, it is clearly unreliable to point at the lack of a kunai when Kishimoto handled them very poorly early on in the series after a character finished waving them around. What matters most here is the fact that Itachi clearly had a kunai & cut Kurenai's hair. If you could refute that, I'd agree with what you say.

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Nah man, how dare you they were Genjutsu!!!

 

[Mellanoma]

SABOTAGE! The kunai's hilt is seen flying behind him & the part he severed seems to be a blade rather than a kunai's tip. You can see the blade fall to the ground.

Yes on the scan. I'm Referring to the fact that it is no longer visible after this scan for the remaining fight.

 

[Icelerate]

The difference being hundreds of chapters worth of experience. There was a shit ton of times similar things happened in this manga earlier on. Like, what happened to Naruto's kunai? It was in his right hand.

Spoiler

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There was never a sign of it on the ground & don't expect me to believe Naruto returned the kunai to his pocket while being attacked?
What happened to Sasuke's kunai? Did he put it up while being pierced by senbons?

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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Or were those kunai genjutsu?

Ultimately, it is clearly unreliable to point at the lack of a kunai when Kishimoto handled them very poorly early on in the series after a character finished waving them around. What matters most here is the fact that Itachi clearly had a kunai & cut Kurenai's hair. If you could refute that, I'd agree with what you say.

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None of those examples prove your point because in your examples, we are shown the kunai initially. On the other hand, Kurenai is never shown wielding a kunai before or after the genjutsu.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

None of those examples prove your point because in your examples, we are shown the kunai initially. On the other hand, Kurenai is never shown wielding a kunai before or after the genjutsu.

@Bold, then never shown what happened to them. My point is that we wouldn't see Kurenai with the kunai after Kishimoto finished showing what he wanted to show her doing with it. We cannot use the lack of kunai afterwards to conclude that she wasn't going to use a real kunai to get the job done because it's unreliable to go by. We have proof that Itachi himself was going to use a real kunai despite already replicating her genjutsu. The transition between him pulling out the kunai while in the genjustu to swinging it after Kurenai broke out is flawless.

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At most, you can argue Itachi wasn't willing to kill her with her justu, so he opted to use something he knew she could counter without drawing suspicion to himself.

 

[Icelerate]

@Bold, then never shown what happened to them. My point is that we wouldn't see Kurenai with the kunai after Kishimoto finished showing what he wanted to show her doing with it. We cannot use the lack of kunai afterwards to conclude that she wasn't going to use a real kunai to get the job done because it's unreliable to go by. We have proof that Itachi himself was going to use a real kunai despite already replicating her genjutsu. The transition between him pulling out the kunai while in the genjustu to swinging it after Kurenai broke out is flawless.

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At most, you can argue Itachi wasn't willing to kill her with her justu, so he opted to use something he knew she could counter without drawing suspicion to himself.

Your examples don't prove that Kurenai always had a kunai in her hand because the only time we are shown this is in the genjutsu world. Unless you want to argue that Shikamaru was literally

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. There was a lack of blood in that scene as well and the chances of Kishi overlooking both her kunai and her blood is pretty low. Arguing inconsitency is a very weak argument.

Itachi had replicated the paralysis part of the genjutsu but the killing part of the genjutsu wasn't activated yet so the reflection didn't replicate the part where Itachi kills her in the genjutsu.

 

[Uverdore9]

One could argue Itachi never cloned the "murder" part due to him never wanting to murder her, due to being loyal to the leaf.

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[Tauren Chieftain]

The difference being hundreds of chapters worth of experience. There was a shit ton of times similar things happened in this manga earlier on. Like, what happened to Naruto's kunai? It was in his right hand.

Spoiler

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You must be registered for see images

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There was never a sign of it on the ground & don't expect me to believe Naruto returned the kunai to his pocket while being attacked?
What happened to Sasuke's kunai? Did he put it up while being pierced by senbons?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

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Or were those kunai genjutsu?

Ultimately, it is clearly unreliable to point at the lack of a kunai when Kishimoto handled them very poorly early on in the series after a character finished waving them around. What matters most here is the fact that Itachi clearly had a kunai & cut Kurenai's hair. If you could refute that, I'd agree with what you say.

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So it could just be inconsistency , another reminder to me not to take manga seriously and go into serious debate over such things.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Your examples don't prove that Kurenai always had a kunai in her hand because the only time we are shown this is in the genjutsu world. Unless you want to argue that Shikamaru was literally

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. There was a lack of blood in that scene as well and the chances of Kishi overlooking both her kunai and her blood is pretty low. Arguing inconsitency is a very weak argument.

No to all the modified text. First, the inconsistency is a proven. You'll have to prove otherwise as multiple of us already illustrated it and do believe so. Second, the red text does not impact my argument in any real way. The argument you're referring to was used to show that you cannot conclude Kurenai DIDN'T have the kunai on the basis that we didn't see it afterwards. My reasoning for her having the kunai is because Itachi had the kunai when he replicated the exact same justu. Shikamaru's situation is clearly different if we consider how low the likelihood of Tayuyu having multiple meters-long chains is opposed to the likelihood of a ninja having a single kunai. There's also the part where we would probably see those longass chains opposed to a small kunai on the ground.

All you have to back the assumption that Kurenai's kunai was genjutsu is this scan.

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There's two ways I can see this being interpreted. Either the justu alone can kill someone, or that a big use of it is to restrain someone for an easy kill. It's vague enough to be interpreted in favor of either of us. The difference is that my belief Kurenai was using a real kunai is supported by mangafacts as well through Itachi's use of a real kunai.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

@bold: no she wasn't in Asuma's general area she moved away from him. If she was he would've been shown there especially when itachi kicked her off the edge. So your point is void.

The reason I was done was because I'd made the same points several times before if pwople can't read. I get tired of repeating. And the rest of tge reasons are addressed bg Minamoto teh first in the quoted post. Call it inconsistency if you will.

Yes she was. Kurai asuma itachi and kisame were all within, roughly 5 meters from each other. And the only time distance was put between them was when itachi sent kurenai into the river.

It's not an inconsistency since its something having to deal with genjutsu.

Kishimoto did the same thing with the itachi vs sasuke fight.

 

[salamander uchiha]

Yes she was. Kurai asuma itachi and kisame were all within, roughly 5 meters from each other. And the only time distance was put between them was when itachi sent kurenai into the river.

I said it before she was moved away and as Mimamoto teh first gave many examples of ninja tools disappearing it doesn't negate their existence prior. Itachi used and reversed the same genjutsu onto Kurenai and the real Itachi was using a real kunai against her during the reversal. That pretty much tells you her Kunai was real and she was intending to deal with Itachi the same way.

It's not an inconsistency since its something having to deal with genjutsu.

Kishimoto did the same thing with the itachi vs sasuke fight.

Itachi vs Sasuke fight and their genjutsu were nothing to do with tree bindings. They were pretty much a pure genjutsu battle Kurenai's situation can't be compared to a battle of the dojutsu.

Another reason I'm done is we'll be arguing the same points back and forth.

 

[DrProof]

Lmfao. Some of the post in this thread have me weak. Good thread.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

I said it before she was moved away and as Mimamoto teh first gave many examples of ninja tools disappearing it doesn't negate their existence prior. Itachi used and reversed the same genjutsu onto Kurenai and the real Itachi was using a real kunai against her during the reversal. That pretty much tells you her Kunai was real and she was intending to deal with Itachi the same way.



Itachi vs Sasuke fight and their genjutsu were nothing to do with tree bindings. They were pretty much a pure genjutsu battle Kurenai's situation can't be compared to a battle of the dojutsu.

Another reason I'm done is we'll be arguing the same points back and forth.

The

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sasuke thrown in the genjutsu is

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in the real world when sasuke breaks said genjutsu. But the

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sasuke threw prior

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.

Kishe took the time out to draw the scattered shuriken pior to the genjutsu, during the genjutsu , and after the genjutsu. But the fuma shuriken, something only used during the genjutsu Is absent. -_-

its literally no different than kurenai's kunai. I.e. Being an object that only appears during genjutsu. Bringing us to the obvious conclusion, that it, along with the tree, and the blood, never actually existed.

 

[Azarath Metrion Zinthos]

Good thread, mate.