Why is it always 1984?

[Yeah right]

When you think government conspiracy or cultural manipulation, you always hear 1984. We all know it, i assume. However, i doubt that even 5% of people who quote it actually read it. And for those who did read it, i doubt that they even analyzed it. Basically, that shit is old as hell. Other stories have appeared that dealt with such ideas better and in some instance more personal.

why does no one mention these?
1. The Handmaid’s Tale
2. Brave New World (old as hell too)
3. The Hunger Games
4. Psycho Pass
5. Enemy of the State
6. YOu can add a story.

heck, you can even use The Purge.

Is 1984 just a touchstone that reinforces white patriarchal supremacy?
Edit: what I mean by this is, has elitism or clique formed using such literary works. It’s literary snobbery mixed in with woke “red pill” people.


Did you read the book or did you watch the movie?

 

[Guntah]

I haven't read most of what you listed, but Hunger Games and Brave New World don't even hold a candle to 1984. Its the kind of book you read and reread at different stages of your life and every time you'll notice something new the story is trying to tell you, and for such a relatively short novel, its filled with more theme and symbolism I'll ever probably catch onto by myself.

Yes, its an old book, but the reason why its so popular is because it holds more and more weight as time goes by. You can easily read it and relate it to the paranoia we have regarding our own privacy nowadays and the isolation you feel despite allegedly being more connected to the society around you than at any other time in human history, yet this was written in the late forties, LONG before the internet even appeared, which makes it all the more brillant in hindsight.

This is the kind of book I could go on and on about. Its probably my personal choice for the best book I've ever read. Saying it just "reinforces white patriarchal supremacy" is not only missing the whole point of 1984, but it spits on everything it tries to get across, which is a lot.

 

[Chikombo]

I know people in USA who uses the Hunger Games and Handmaidens tale to describe this Trump era.

But yea, usually it's 1984, I haven't read it, I only know it's about the big brother phenomenon which seems relevant today, with facebook and all.

When I see things in the news that troubles me I usually go back to WW2 or the 50s or something where people were awful to other human beings in psychiatric institutions and people were nazis and faschists and all of that. I'm not saying peopel are like that now but that's my biggest worry is that people are gonna get there again.

 

[Yeah right]

I haven't read most of what you listed, but Hunger Games and Brave New World don't even hold a candle to 1984. Its the kind of book you read and reread at different stages of your life and every time you'll notice something new the story is trying to tell you, and for such a relatively short novel, its filled with more theme and symbolism I'll ever probably catch onto by myself.

Yes, its an old book, but the reason why its so popular is because it holds more and more weight as time goes by. You can easily read it and relate it to the paranoia we have regarding our own privacy nowadays and the isolation you feel despite allegedly being more connected to the society around you than at any other time in human history, yet this was written in the late forties, LONG before the internet even appeared, which makes it all the more brillant in hindsight.

This is the kind of book I could go on and on about. Its probably my personal choice for the best book I've ever read. Saying it just "reinforces white patriarchal supremacy" is not only missing the whole point of 1984, but it spits on everything it tries to get across, which is a lot.

Thanks for you insight. But, you missed the point.

When was the last time you read Brave New World? Answer, honestly.

The last part was just a trigger and also a point in itself. Thanks for revealing something about yourself.

I know people in USA who uses the Hunger Games and Handmaidens tale to describe this Trump era.

But yea, usually it's 1984, I haven't read it, I only know it's about the big brother phenomenon which seems relevant today, with facebook and all.

Thats why i think people miss the point about the connection that Facebook actually hold. YEs, facebook can be used as an eye. But what does it do to the users. Make them happy artificially??? Judgemental over superficial things??? Competing over others??? Collecting admiration???

People just cut off at Oh, BIG BROTHER is watching me when i voluntarily give them my information.

 

[Chikombo]

Thats why i think people miss the point about the connection that Facebook actually hold. YEs, facebook can be used as an eye. But what does it do to the users. Make them happy artificially??? Judgemental over superficial things??? Competing over others??? Collecting admiration???

People just cut off at Oh, BIG BROTHER is watching me when i voluntarily give them my information.

It's true that people do it by themselves these days, people want to upload things about themselves all the time xD It's so much easier to stalk people now. And facebook is not even the government, it's a company.

 

[Guntah]

Thanks for you insight. But, you missed the point.

When was the last time you read Brave New World? Answer, honestly.

The last part was just a trigger and also a point in itself. Thanks for revealing something about yourself.

A couple of years ago, and I might've been harsh in my original post. Saying it and Hunger Games don't hold a candle to 1984 is not true...at least for A Brave New World. Its a good novel, great even, but it didn't leave behind the same impact 1984 did.

 

[Yeah right]

It's true that people do it by themselves these days, people want to upload things about themselves all the time xD It's so much easier to stalk people now. And facebook is not even the government, it's a company.

Bro, all companies are CIA operations. LOL.

When Facebook first spread everywhere, I was like, ah no thanks. I know where this is headed. What I didn’t foresee was that it was for the name of advertising. the election stuff I saw coming.

 

[Konno]

We live in a world described in that very educating book

 

[The Great Second Hokage]

I tend to think of Fahrenheit 451, similar to 1984 but I get what your trying to say.

 

[chopstickchakra]

When you think government conspiracy or cultural manipulation, you always hear 1984. We all know it, i assume. However, i doubt that even 5% of people who quote it actually read it. And for those who did read it, i doubt that they even analyzed it. Basically, that shit is old as hell. Other stories have appeared that dealt with such ideas better and in some instance more personal.

why does no one mention these?
1. The Handmaid’s Tale
2. Brave New World (old as hell too)
3. The Hunger Games
4. Psycho Pass
5. Enemy of the State
6. YOu can add a story.

heck, you can even use The Purge.

Is 1984 just a touchstone that reinforces white patriarchal supremacy?
Edit: what I mean by this is, has elitism or clique formed using such literary works. It’s literary snobbery mixed in with woke “red pill” people.


Did you read the book or did you watch the movie?

Because A. 1984 was one of the original same reason why Shakespeare's still revered. B. They hit it all eerily accurately to how it's playing out; Newspeak, book manipulation, censorship of thought etc. All of those examples you gave have elements of 1984 where as 1984 has elements of all those stories you mention.

 

[Lightbringer]

I wouldn't compare something like Hunger Games to 1984. And yes, I did read the book. I actually reread it again like a month ago and it was still one of the best novels I've ever read.

1984, if I'm not mistaken, proceeded the rest of the books you've mentioned. The book itself was incredibly influential and I wouldn't be surprised if those other novels took influence from it. I also think it's a lot easier to draw parallels between our society and 1984 rather than something like Hunger Games. It was a lot more profound and insightful and actually compared the current government of Ingsoc to previous fascist regimes and commented on what separated them and how they failed in the past. It made you believe that this was actually the future, whereas Hunger Games never mentioned anything relating back to our own history.

It was a lot more psychological and certainly more bleak to the reader. But concepts like double-think and newspeak are relevant today and have been used throughout history as a method to control the population and spread propaganda, especially with Trump. George Orwell was an incredible commentator on the use of language as a weapon. Aside for 1984, he wrote a paper about the debasement of the English language and how politicians adapted meaningless rhetoric and jargon in order to fool the audience by giving vague statements which sound smart through the use of plentiful "non-words." And once again, we can draw these parallels to someone like Trump because he is a living example of what George Orwell wrote about, except much less competent.

Something like Hunger Games doesn't have such a meaningful observation nor clairvoyance of a book like 1984.

And while we're nowhere near turning into a society such as Ingsoc, it's still very believable and there are certainly elements which ring true to what we're experiencing today, such as surveillance of citizens and going to war with nations over resources and global positioning while preaching Democracy and peace. North Korea or even Mao's Communist China would probably have been the closest to have come to it.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Didn't the other ones use 1984 as a building block for their stories?

IDK, I've only read a few but I didn't analyze much in terms on who and when the books written.

All I can say for certain is that 1984 is a very easy book to compare. It is the most realistic. Other ones are based on extreme scenarios or are out in the open.

1984 is really secretive and discreet. The masses have an inkling and show some dissatisfaction but are completely unaware of why. Why is the government the way it is and such.

In Hunger Games and Fahrenheit 451, they are pretty clear as to why it is what it is.
I mean even a Brave New World, the answer is right in your face.

For 1984, you are given a reason why you should be complacent but it is not the actual reason. Brave New World is similar to this but the level of transparency is not the same as 1984. Hence, we would always reference that book for any conspiracies and espionage.

It's the level of transparency. Both sides know or have a general idea why. In 1984, only the select few know why. The public cannot spy on the government but the government can spy on its citizens.

The others can or have an equal opportunity.

 

[Yeah right]

Yes, I get that from a European centric literary perspective, 1984 touches upon the bedrock of what is “wrong”. What I am trying to get at, other newer stories, ones that are fresher, more convenient, can be used as examples to explain the ills of society. So why don’t we? Why are you guys stuck in the past?

Did anyone get triggered by the first sentence? Why?

And guys, you can stop with the Orwellian jack off fest. I got enough of it when I was getting my literary degree.
I’m surprised no one mention his Animal Farm. That one is at least better with politics.


So let’s use some ideological interpretation using Orwellian POV.

Connect the dots.
Trump - Mainstream Media - YouTube media - people - Facebook -
Corporations - military - elections - minorities

I’m interested with how the conservatives answer this puzzle.

 

[chopstickchakra]

So are you actually looking for an answer or looking for people to reaffirm your opinion that 1984 is over-rated because it seems like the latter.

The reason those other, newer, examples aren't being referenced as much has already been answered, 1984 is the more established source and has had more readers/viewers over time and it has covered the subject more fully than the other examples you provided. While some may delve deeper into a particular issue of dystopia/oppression than 1984 did they cover other aspects at a much more shallow examination.

The trendsetters get a reserved space even if later works exceed them because of the time frame of release and precedent, similarly to how IRobot and Asimov's Laws of Robotics are still prevalent through sci fi today or how Shakespeare is still considered one of the greatest writers even though people have done the same thing he did since him. These creators ability to develop ideas before commercial popularity is what makes their works resonate so well.

 

[Yeah right]

So are you actually looking for an answer or looking for people to reaffirm your opinion that 1984 is over-rated because it seems like the latter.

The reason those other, newer, examples aren't being referenced as much has already been answered, 1984 is the more established source and has had more readers/viewers over time and it has covered the subject more fully than the other examples you provided. While some may delve deeper into a particular issue of dystopia/oppression than 1984 did they cover other aspects at a much more shallow examination.

The trendsetters get a reserved space even if later works exceed them because of the time frame of release and precedent, similarly to how IRobot and Asimov's Laws of Robotics are still prevalent through sci fi today or how Shakespeare is still considered one of the greatest writers even though people have done the same thing he did since him. These creators ability to develop ideas before commercial popularity is what makes their works resonate so well.

I think it’s pretty much covered that everyone sucks on Orwell. It just doesn’t make sense to me to reference material that most have not read or have in their working memory, while they have fresher examples that can also serve to make a point. I’m not saying his works are not great, I’m just saying that is irrelevant in normal conversation.

[video=youtube_share;X7JNac5eU3c]https://youtu.be/X7JNac5eU3c[/video]

Now I want to see if you guys can even use his material as a lense. Instead of just saying, “ oh, it’s totally 1984. “

This will prove if you guys are even worth his material in the first place. It also proves something else that coincides with his work. If two people respond with opposing political affiliations that is. So it’s a fun experiment.

So, once again. Connect the dots.
Trump - mainstream media - elections - social media - social media news -
Middle America - politics (two party system) - minorities - corporations - military.

 

[Aim64C]

When you think government conspiracy or cultural manipulation, you always hear 1984. We all know it, i assume. However, i doubt that even 5% of people who quote it actually read it. And for those who did read it, i doubt that they even analyzed it. Basically, that shit is old as hell. Other stories have appeared that dealt with such ideas better and in some instance more personal.

Well, obviously, only you can know what it means.

why does no one mention these?
1. The Handmaid’s Tale
2. Brave New World (old as hell too)
3. The Hunger Games
4. Psycho Pass
5. Enemy of the State
6. YOu can add a story.

I post videos from them. I post quotes from them, as well. And many more.

heck, you can even use The Purge.

Not really.

Is 1984 just a touchstone that reinforces white patriarchal supremacy?

It is a touchstone - a hallmark or an icon. However....

Edit: what I mean by this is, has elitism or clique formed using such literary works. It’s literary snobbery mixed in with woke “red pill” people.

This is you being frustrated with the inability to communicate why it is you disagree with the conclusions of such literary works or "red pill people" in a rational manner. That, or the implication that they are correct is deeply unsettling to you, and exposes a vulnerability in your world view that you do not wish to explore.

While not everything a 'red pill person' is going to talk about is going to be correct - the fact of the matter is that they are often being harassed for suggesting people take on an increased amount of freedom and, therefor, responsibility. This, in and of itself, should be concerning.

But it harks back to an even earlier era. Again, if you wash Psycho-Pass - you'll see very intelligent people cite the works of those who came before them. It is an honest recognition that their ideas are not entirely new, and that the struggle against such forces has existed for, probably, as long as mankind has existed. Shogo Makashima loves to quote Gulliver's Travels and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.

Truth is treason in the empire of lies, and in the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is labeled insane.

 

[Yeah right]

Well, obviously, only you can know what it means.



I post videos from them. I post quotes from them, as well. And many more.



Not really.



It is a touchstone - a hallmark or an icon. However....





This is you being frustrated with the inability to communicate why it is you disagree with the conclusions of such literary works or "red pill people" in a rational manner. That, or the implication that they are correct is deeply unsettling to you, and exposes a vulnerability in your world view that you do not wish to explore.

While not everything a 'red pill person' is going to talk about is going to be correct - the fact of the matter is that they are often being harassed for suggesting people take on an increased amount of freedom and, therefor, responsibility. This, in and of itself, should be concerning.

But it harks back to an even earlier era. Again, if you wash Psycho-Pass - you'll see very intelligent people cite the works of those who came before them. It is an honest recognition that their ideas are not entirely new, and that the struggle against such forces has existed for, probably, as long as mankind has existed. Shogo Makashima loves to quote Gulliver's Travels and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.

Truth is treason in the empire of lies, and in the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is labeled insane.

Keep reading the thread then tell me why do people use outdated text to prove points if the receiver has no reference to it?

 

[Aim64C]

Keep reading the thread then tell me why do people use outdated text to prove points if the receiver has no reference to it?

This presumes that the idea is outdated. Read Gulliver's Travels and tell me that it is outdated. It may not have iphones in it, but every criticism leveled by Swift during his time still rings just as true, today, as it did hundreds of years ago. The orations of Cicero from two thousand years ago ring just as true, today, as they did when they were first spoken.

I think that those of us who are genuinely intelligent find it to be a very astute attack on the ego of the delusional hacks of accreditation. These types love to present themselves as 'new' and 'progressive.' They are the light-bearers of a glorious future humanity needs them to fulfill... and those of us who are smart enjoy pointing out that their ideas and arguments are as old as time, eternal - and that they were called out for the frauds they were, then - and are justly being done so, today.

Even the new works created to re-cast the message into a new era often cite the older works within them - to carry forward the message that the argument is nothing new. However, the reality is that very few will ever watch the new productions. Even though Psycho-Pass is enormously popular among anime fans - it will not become the next touch-stone. Sure, the nature of the internet makes it much easier to share clips and quotes to make a point - but it is a much more eclectic reference that people do not as readily understand as when you say "1984" or "the Matrix."

I can think of many other examples - some of which came before them - which do a better job of depicting those scenarios and telling similar stories or lessons... but I can pound the drum of epic series which people should watch all the time - and only a small portion will ever actually watch them. Even then - it can be argued that many people lack the alertness to actually draw meaning from many stories. They don't understand the symbolism or metaphor to their every day lives. 1984 wasn't so much about cameras watching you in your room - it was about the ability of a political party to completely and totally dominate a society's concept of reality.

But, I digress.

 

[Yeah right]

This presumes that the idea is outdated. Read Gulliver's Travels and tell me that it is outdated. It may not have iphones in it, but every criticism leveled by Swift during his time still rings just as true, today, as it did hundreds of years ago. The orations of Cicero from two thousand years ago ring just as true, today, as they did when they were first spoken.

I think that those of us who are genuinely intelligent find it to be a very astute attack on the ego of the delusional hacks of accreditation. These types love to present themselves as 'new' and 'progressive.' They are the light-bearers of a glorious future humanity needs them to fulfill... and those of us who are smart enjoy pointing out that their ideas and arguments are as old as time, eternal - and that they were called out for the frauds they were, then - and are justly being done so, today.

Even the new works created to re-cast the message into a new era often cite the older works within them - to carry forward the message that the argument is nothing new. However, the reality is that very few will ever watch the new productions. Even though Psycho-Pass is enormously popular among anime fans - it will not become the next touch-stone. Sure, the nature of the internet makes it much easier to share clips and quotes to make a point - but it is a much more eclectic reference that people do not as readily understand as when you say "1984" or "the Matrix."

I can think of many other examples - some of which came before them - which do a better job of depicting those scenarios and telling similar stories or lessons... but I can pound the drum of epic series which people should watch all the time - and only a small portion will ever actually watch them. Even then - it can be argued that many people lack the alertness to actually draw meaning from many stories. They don't understand the symbolism or metaphor to their every day lives. 1984 wasn't so much about cameras watching you in your room - it was about the ability of a political party to completely and totally dominate a society's concept of reality.

But, I digress.

You seem like a smart guy, wish you answered my Orwellian view on our government but I guess it was too much.

So I will ask this simple question.

Think carefully, but give a detailed response.

Why does every generation have its own love song?

 

[Aim64C]

You seem like a smart guy, wish you answered my Orwellian view on our government but I guess it was too much.

So I will ask this simple question.

Think carefully, but give a detailed response.

Why does every generation have its own love song?

Why are some bed-time stories as old as time... and legends eternal?