Let's Politicize Gun Massacres

[SamAdams]

Do you deny that crime and gun deaths have dropped in Australia since the implementation of its gun laws?

I said there was an increase for a time afterward which to me indicates there is more to it than just the ban.

My point is proven by the fact that the US had an even greater decrease in gun violence over the same period of time without a gun ban. In fact assault style rifles came onto the market during that time frame.

 

[Fountain]

tch...

 

[Caliburn]

Why not politicize truck massacres? Its not the instrument used thats the problem. Its the crazies running loose in this world today. How about we politicize them?

That's a weak argument. Every time an incident like this occurs, this discussion is arises and this has been going on for as long as I can remember. During all of that the amount of valid arguments I have heard in favor of guns, is absolute zero. Either it's just people rambling about their 'right' to bear arms and the 2nd amendment; people who apparently think more guns is the solution (because promoting gun fights apparently is a sensible idea) or people like you who try shift away from the issue at hand by pointing towards something else.

Yes trucks can be used in nefarious ways, but that's not its purpose. Trucks are meant to transport goods, guns on the other hand were designed to kill, that's why they exist. There's very well a difference between using something in a way it wasn't intended to be used and using it for what it's supposed to do. And despite that there have been examples of trucks being used for attacks, that doesn't take away the reality that overall seen they are rather impractical and limited in their usage. This is something that's even gets explained in terrorist guidebooks, namely that trucks are an alternative if your options are limited, but not the favored method. Imagine that Cruz would have used a truck instead of guns. Tell me do you think he would have made more or less victims in his former school?

Personally I'm rather pessimistic. I believe it's already too late. Even if right now stricter gun laws would be implemented (which is long overdue), it most likely would take years before this vicious cycle gets broken and every step of the way the pro-gun faction will resist as much as possible. This not even an issue about crazy people abusing guns, this about the fact that the American society has been immersed on all levels by guns and this has gone so far that any comparison with other countries is a completely moot point, whether it's in favor or against stricter gun laws. This is how far this problem has spiraled out of control.

Considering statistics have been brought up, here's another one: apparently almost 50% of all privately owned weapons are in the possession of Americans. The contrast and scope if this problem so huge in comparison, that's even pointless trying to compare.

At this point America has sunk so deep into this cesspool that they breath feces in and out. As much as I feel sorry for the victims, American society is pretty much bringing this upon themselves and comments like yours are clear example of that. You try to circumvent the issue by bringing trucks up. You try to put the blame on "crazy people" instead of acknowledging the truth: America has a gun addiction and that addiction is what creates crazy people like this. As long as you don't accept you have a problem, this going to happen again and again. How are you going to solve a problem if you don't even accept it exists?

For crying out loud you can walk into an American supermarket and buy guns the same manner I buy a sack of potatoes. Don't put the blame on crazy people when those people grew up with the idea that apparently guns are a normal commodity that you can buy alongside chocolate during a grocery trip. Don't act like there's nothing wrong when apparently the drinking age is higher than the age for guns. This is essentially a breeding ground for what you call crazy people.

By now I really wouldn't be surprised if America's approach to guns is what will eventually make the country fall apart.

 

[Lightbringer]

I said there was an increase for a time afterward which to me indicates there is more to it than just the ban.

My point is proven by the fact that the US had an even greater decrease in gun violence over the same period of time without a gun ban. In fact assault style rifles came onto the market during that time frame.

Again, your original comment was about gun deaths specifically. Gun deaths have not spiked since the gun ban, only general crime. You're refusing to acknowledge that your comment below is empirically wrong.

absurd gun regulations thats been dog and ponied around these shootings will stop nut jobs from shooting people.

I already showed you that statistics that prove that the spike happened from 1997-1999 but dropped significantly afterward. The process doesn't happen overnight.

You're cherry picking data. Gun Deaths in the U.S. have been steadily rising every year for the past 10 years. Mass shootings specifically have are the highest it's ever been in U.S. history, it's been trending upward every single year.


No economist knows exactly why crime dropped in the U.S. in the 1990s, but there are no major theories that gun ownership correlated with the decrease in crime. In fact, the more guns we have, the higher the suicide rates.

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"Researchers have studied the decline in firearm crime and violent crime for many years, and though there are theories to explain the decline, there is no consensus among those who study the issue as to why it happened."

"Looking at the larger topic of firearm deaths, there were 31,672 deaths from guns in the U.S. in 2010. Most (19,392) were suicides; the gun suicide rate has been higher than the gun homicide rate since at least 1981, and the gap is wider than it was in 1981."



So once again, you are wrong.

 

[SamAdams]

That's a weak argument. Every time an incident like this occurs, this discussion is arises and this has been going on for as long as I can remember. During all of that the amount of valid arguments I have heard in favor of guns, is absolute zero. Either it's just people rambling about their 'right' to bear arms and the 2nd amendment; people who apparently think more guns is the solution (because promoting gun fights apparently is a sensible idea) or people like you who try shift away from the issue at hand by pointing towards something else.

Yes trucks can be used in nefarious ways, but that's not its purpose. Trucks are meant to transport goods, guns on the other hand were designed to kill, that's why they exist. There's very well a difference between using something in a way it wasn't intended to be used and using it for what it's supposed to do. And despite that there have been examples of trucks being used for attacks, that doesn't take away the reality that overall seen they are rather impractical and limited in their usage. This is something that's even gets explained in terrorist guidebooks, namely that trucks are an alternative if your options are limited, but not the favored method. Imagine that Cruz would have used a truck instead of guns. Tell me do you think he would have made more or less victims in his former school?

Personally I'm rather pessimistic. I believe it's already too late. Even if right now stricter gun laws would be implemented (which is long overdue), it most likely would take years before this vicious cycle gets broken and every step of the way the pro-gun faction will resist as much as possible. This not even an issue about crazy people abusing guns, this about the fact that the American society has been immersed on all levels by guns and this has gone so far that any comparison with other countries is a completely moot point, whether it's in favor or against stricter gun laws. This is how far this problem has spiraled out of control.

Considering statistics have been brought up, here's another one: apparently almost 50% of all privately owned weapons are in the possession of Americans. The contrast and scope if this problem so huge in comparison, that's even pointless trying to compare.

At this point America has sunk so deep into this cesspool that they breath feces in and out. As much as I feel sorry for the victims, American society is pretty much bringing this upon themselves and comments like yours are clear example of that. You try to circumvent the issue by bringing trucks up. You try to put the blame on "crazy people" instead of acknowledging the truth: America has a gun addiction and that addiction is what creates crazy people like this. As long as you don't accept you have a problem, this going to happen again and again. How are you going to solve a problem if you don't even accept it exists?

For crying out loud you can walk into an American supermarket and buy guns the same manner I buy a sack of potatoes. Don't put the blame on crazy people when those people grew up with the idea that apparently guns are a normal commodity that you can buy alongside chocolate during a grocery trip. Don't act like there's nothing wrong when apparently the drinking age is higher than the age for guns. This is essentially a breeding ground for what you call crazy people.

By now I really wouldn't be surprised if America's approach to guns is what will eventually make the country fall apart.

No point replying to all your aimless wonderings but i’ll reply concerning people thinking more guns are the answer. I’m not not a follower of that philosophy. My point is that theres no way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, therefore you can’t take them from law abiding citizens that need to defend themselves.

Incase you think its the job of the police to protect you and you haven’t read my earlier post. It is not the police’s job to protect you. If you don’t believe that just google supreme court cases on the subject.

 

[SamAdams]

Again, your original comment was about gun deaths specifically. Gun deaths have not spiked since the gun ban, only general crime. You're refusing to acknowledge that your comment below is empirically wrong.



I already showed you that statistics that prove that the spike happened from 1997-1999 but dropped significantly afterward. The process doesn't happen overnight.

You're cherry picking data. Gun Deaths in the U.S. have been steadily rising every year for the past 10 years. Mass shootings specifically have are the highest it's ever been in U.S. history, it's been trending upward every single year.


No economist knows exactly why crime dropped in the U.S. in the 1990s, but there are no major theories that gun ownership correlated with the decrease in crime. In fact, the more guns we have, the higher the suicide rates.

You must be registered for see links

"Researchers have studied the decline in firearm crime and violent crime for many years, and though there are theories to explain the decline, there is no consensus among those who study the issue as to why it happened."

"Looking at the larger topic of firearm deaths, there were 31,672 deaths from guns in the U.S. in 2010. Most (19,392) were suicides; the gun suicide rate has been higher than the gun homicide rate since at least 1981, and the gap is wider than it was in 1981."



So once again, you are wrong.

Ok you no longer entertaining so this will be my last reply to your nonsense.

I love how you keep ignoring the fact that the US had a sharper decrease in gun crime and are desperately hinging your entire argument on a statement that I made that you yourself admitted was correct in that there was an increase in gun crime and other crime for multiple years following the ban.

 

[Lightbringer]

Ok you no longer entertaining so this will be my last reply to your nonsense.

I love how you keep ignoring the fact that the US had a sharper decrease in gun crime and are desperately hinging your entire argument on a statement that I made that you yourself admitted was correct in that there was an increase in gun crime and other crime for multiple years following the ban.

I literally just debunked your statement in my last which you clearly haven't read. There is no evidence to suggest that the decline in crime in the 1990's had anything to do with gun ownership.

So saying it like it's a fact just show how desperate you are to validate your own misinformed views on gun laws.

Again, Australia's gun violence and overall crime are on a record low since the implementation of the gun laws, and no mass shooting has happened in the 20 years. Unlike the U.S., there is actually data which correlates the two.

Stay ignant.

 

[SamAdams]

Speaks for itself

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Its not by accident thst virtually all mass shootings take place in gun free zones.

 

[Lightbringer]

Speaks for itself

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You must be registered for see links

Its not by accident thst virtually all mass shootings take place in gun free zones.

Again, there is no concrete evidence that supports your claim. Even your two links don't come to that conclusion. Just accept that you're wrong.

I'm repeating myself at this point.

Ok you no longer entertaining so this will be my last reply to your nonsense.

No point replying to all your aimless wonderings but i’ll reply concerning people thinking more guns are the answer. I’m not not a follower of that philosophy. My point is that theres no way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, therefore you can’t take them from law abiding citizens that need to defend themselves.

Again, Australia and many other countries prove your statement wrong. You are espousing falsehoods and can't admit that the facts are against you.

 

[ArabianLuffy]

Can the fingerprints technology be of any use? Like if it can be implemented in a gun's system, and it won't fire if it wasn't the owner of the gun himself/herself.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Can the fingerprints technology be of any use? Like if it can be implemented in a gun's system, and it won't fire if it wasn't the owner of the gun himself/herself.

Wtf, that's such an intrusive system.

 

[ArabianLuffy]

Wtf, that's such an intrusive system.

It sure is. It is ugly. If it's possible and if it lessens the problem, I don't see why the government wouldn't implement it even force it on weapon companies. Any price would be paid to keep things under control. At least, the innocent people will be safe.

 

[Caliburn]

No point replying to all your aimless wonderings but i’ll reply concerning people thinking more guns are the answer. I’m not not a follower of that philosophy. My point is that theres no way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, therefore you can’t take them from law abiding citizens that need to defend themselves.

Incase you think its the job of the police to protect you and you haven’t read my earlier post. It is not the police’s job to protect you. If you don’t believe that just google supreme court cases on the subject.

It aren't aimless wonderings, they're dead on target and I'm not sorry for that pun.

And you just did it again, you just tried to shift the focus away. Instead of acknowledging the problem, you try to divert it.

Yeah, it's impossible to keep for a 100% the guns out of the hands of the wrong people, but no one is expecting that. This applies to the entire world, yet somehow it's in what's supposed to be the mightiest country in the world that stuff like this happens on what has become a weekly basis. There's a huge difference between people like terrorists and hardcore criminals, who are part of a larger network and do what they do with specific purposes in mind, and situations like in Florida. You call them crazy, but many of these perpetrators are troubled individuals who snapped. The average person doesn't have connections to the underworld or easy access to an illegal gun market. The logic here is very simple: you can't do stupid stuff with guns, if you can't reach them, yet somehow it appears to be ridiculously easy for anyone to get their hands on guns.

You talk about criminals, but you essentially create them in a climate like that. Until Cruz decided to go on a killing spree, he more or less was a "law-abiding citizen", one with access to a gun arsenal. That you actually try to hide behind such a shallow facade is even more disturbing than the actual shootings. You shouldn't be needing guns for protection. If this was freaking Syria that would be a valid argument, but in America? It comes down to that you need guns to protect you from people with guns who got their guns because of a climate that allows you to get guns as you need easy access to them to protect yourself.

So you pretty much create your own demons, but will do anything other than accepting that and trying to actually solve the problem sensibly is taboo.

Are you really surprised you have so many crazy people running around shooting other people when what you define as apparently normal reasonings, are messed up beyond belief?

Speaks for itself

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Its not by accident thst virtually all mass shootings take place in gun free zones.

That statement alone is a huge-ass red flag and that you apparently fail to see that, again underlines everything I said previously.

It's not because you're crazy, you're retarded. Which idiot who is planing to commit a mass shooting would go to a military base or a police station? The fact however that you actually have the need to install gun free zones is disturbing on all levels and you speak like it's the most normal thing in the world. It's not, it's messed up, why do you have such zones? Because apparently it has to be specified that there are areas you are not allowed to carry guns

That whole sentence and accompanying attitude is far more frightening than any mass shooter as those are just the byproduct of an environment dictated by that kind of sentiments.

 

[Multiply]

It aren't aimless wonderings, they're dead on target and I'm not sorry for that pun.

And you just did it again, you just tried to shift the focus away. Instead of acknowledging the problem, you try to divert it.

Yeah, it's impossible to keep for a 100% the guns out of the hands of the wrong people, but no one is expecting that. This applies to the entire world, yet somehow it's in what's supposed to be the mightiest country in the world that stuff like this happens on what has become a weekly basis. There's a huge difference between people like terrorists and hardcore criminals, who are part of a larger network and do what they do with specific purposes in mind, and situations like in Florida. You call them crazy, but many of these perpetrators are troubled individuals who snapped. The average person doesn't have connections to the underworld or easy access to an illegal gun market. The logic here is very simple: you can't do stupid stuff with guns, if you can't reach them, yet somehow it appears to be ridiculously easy for anyone to get their hands on guns.

You talk about criminals, but you essentially create them in a climate like that. Until Cruz decided to go on a killing spree, he more or less was a "law-abiding citizen", one with access to a gun arsenal. That you actually try to hide behind such a shallow facade is even more disturbing than the actual shootings. You shouldn't be needing guns for protection. If this was freaking Syria that would be a valid argument, but in America? It comes down to that you need guns to protect you from people with guns who got their guns because of a climate that allows you to get guns as you need easy access to them to protect yourself.

So you pretty much create your own demons, but will do anything other than accepting that and trying to actually solve the problem sensibly is taboo.

Are you really surprised you have so many crazy people running around shooting other people when what you define as apparently normal reasonings, are messed up beyond belief?



That statement alone is a huge-ass red flag and that you apparently fail to see that, again underlines everything I said previously.

It's not because you're crazy, you're retarded. Which idiot who is planing to commit a mass shooting would go to a military base or a police station? The fact however that you actually have the need to install gun free zones is disturbing on all levels and you speak like it's the most normal thing in the world. It's not, it's messed up, why do you have such zones? Because apparently it has to be specified that there are areas you are not allowed to carry guns

That whole sentence and accompanying attitude is far more frightening than any mass shooter as those are just the byproduct of an environment dictated by that kind of sentiments.

@Bold was the icing.

Sam Adams you're getting washed dog. Learn when to concede the point.

 

[SamAdams]

@Bold was the icing.

Sam Adams you're getting washed dog. Learn when to concede the point.

Lol i’m not getting washed, these arguments from people who wouldn’t know critical thinking if it beat them half to death are fruitless.

If you could make every gun go away i’d be all for it but you can’t. 96% of all mass shootings take place in gun free zones. How well has gun bans worked there?

Saying lets take all the guns is like the war on drugs. Drugs are illegal and billions are spent yearly to fight the drug war. How hard is it to find illegal drugs in any community in the US?

Every single person here that can’t wrap their tiny little brainwashed minds around what I just said are nothing more than dribbling brain dead zombies.

I won’t concede a point just because feeble libral minds can’t comprehend logic.

 

[SamAdams]

It aren't aimless wonderings, they're dead on target and I'm not sorry for that pun.

And you just did it again, you just tried to shift the focus away. Instead of acknowledging the problem, you try to divert it.

Yeah, it's impossible to keep for a 100% the guns out of the hands of the wrong people, but no one is expecting that. This applies to the entire world, yet somehow it's in what's supposed to be the mightiest country in the world that stuff like this happens on what has become a weekly basis. There's a huge difference between people like terrorists and hardcore criminals, who are part of a larger network and do what they do with specific purposes in mind, and situations like in Florida. You call them crazy, but many of these perpetrators are troubled individuals who snapped. The average person doesn't have connections to the underworld or easy access to an illegal gun market. The logic here is very simple: you can't do stupid stuff with guns, if you can't reach them, yet somehow it appears to be ridiculously easy for anyone to get their hands on guns.

You talk about criminals, but you essentially create them in a climate like that. Until Cruz decided to go on a killing spree, he more or less was a "law-abiding citizen", one with access to a gun arsenal. That you actually try to hide behind such a shallow facade is even more disturbing than the actual shootings. You shouldn't be needing guns for protection. If this was freaking Syria that would be a valid argument, but in America? It comes down to that you need guns to protect you from people with guns who got their guns because of a climate that allows you to get guns as you need easy access to them to protect yourself.

So you pretty much create your own demons, but will do anything other than accepting that and trying to actually solve the problem sensibly is taboo.

Are you really surprised you have so many crazy people running around shooting other people when what you define as apparently normal reasonings, are messed up beyond belief?



That statement alone is a huge-ass red flag and that you apparently fail to see that, again underlines everything I said previously.

It's not because you're crazy, you're retarded. Which idiot who is planing to commit a mass shooting would go to a military base or a police station? The fact however that you actually have the need to install gun free zones is disturbing on all levels and you speak like it's the most normal thing in the world. It's not, it's messed up, why do you have such zones? Because apparently it has to be specified that there are areas you are not allowed to carry guns

That whole sentence and accompanying attitude is far more frightening than any mass shooter as those are just the byproduct of an environment dictated by that kind of sentiments.

I swear this is my last reply to this garbage but I must say you clearly delusional. To think you have to have “connections to the underworld” to buy an illegal gun just has me rolling on the floor.

Any high schooler can get illegal drugs for an upcoming party at a moments notice and these kids don’t have connections to the underworld.

Your dribble is leprocy of the mind.

 

[Multiply]

Lol i’m not getting washed, these arguments from people who wouldn’t know critical thinking if it beat them half to death are fruitless.

If you could make every gun go away i’d be all for it but you can’t. 96% of all mass shootings take place in gun free zones. How well has gun bans worked there?

This is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. If you don't understand why then you should just give up discussing this topic.

Saying lets take all the guns is like the war on drugs. Drugs are illegal and billions are spent yearly to fight the drug war. How hard is it to find illegal drugs in any community in the US?

Every single person here that can’t wrap their tiny little brainwashed minds around what I just said are nothing more than dribbling brain dead zombies.

Drugs and guns simply are not comparable.

I won’t concede a point just because feeble libral minds can’t comprehend logic.

How is it logic that we need more guns to protect us, even though more guns = more gun violence? Wouldn't it then make sense that less guns = less gun violence?

 

[Caliburn]

Lol i’m not getting washed, these arguments from people who wouldn’t know critical thinking if it beat them half to death are fruitless.

If you could make every gun go away i’d be all for it but you can’t. 96% of all mass shootings take place in gun free zones. How well has gun bans worked there?

Saying lets take all the guns is like the war on drugs. Drugs are illegal and billions are spent yearly to fight the drug war. How hard is it to find illegal drugs in any community in the US?

Every single person here that can’t wrap their tiny little brainwashed minds around what I just said are nothing more than dribbling brain dead zombies.

I won’t concede a point just because feeble libral minds can’t comprehend logic.

I swear this is my last reply to this garbage but I must say you clearly delusional. To think you have to have “connections to the underworld” to buy an illegal gun just has me rolling on the floor.

Any high schooler can get illegal drugs for an upcoming party at a moments notice and these kids don’t have connections to the underworld.

Your dribble is leprocy of the mind.

Arguments you countered: 0

Arguments you provided: 0

You have done exactly what I described in all my previous posts. The only thing you did was either ignore the arguments provided or gave shallow, pointless excuses as long as you don't have to admit America has a gun addiction. America has an issue with guns and it's not just the object itself, but the entire culture around it and everything you said and the attitude you have underlines that.

Critical thinking? That's the one thing you have absolutely not done and is what almost literally the entire world is saying America should be doing. Ignoring sensible arguments and finding pitiful excuses is the opposite of critical thinking.

Yeah you can't take all the guns away, but because America refused to admit they have a problem and let it spiral completely out of control, at this point you need to start taking drastic measures. If your house is being flooded and your feet are standing in water, it's a sign you should do something. America however waited till they got completely submerged and it's kinda late to solve your problem when you're already drowning.

And again the fact alone that you had need to specify you have something like gun-free zones is worrying beyond belief as that means it was necessary to explicitly say to people "you are not allowed to wear guns in schools". We call that common sense. See that's critical thinking, what you do however is drowning yourself in attempt to prove life jackets don't work.

Also I think the chance you would shoot us half to death would be more likely.

Instead of replying to what I said, you ignored almost all of it. You then provided shallow, repetitive excuses that standard come out of every biased American gun fanatic without even bothering to understand what it is you're exactly saying and now you're throwing out insults while you're groveling away.

The fact that you are rolling over the floor because you think that that is funny, is sick and that's exactly what's worrying. You consider this normal, you consider that you can easily get access to guns as something mundane. That's not supposed to be the case. You are completely oblivious to the fact you're actually disproving the very concepts you are trying to defend. No that's a sign of a brainwashed person.

For the record I'm from Europe from a country that has no gun culture and no extensive history of mass shootings. Tell me something who the hell would even bother brainwashing us about this? For us this whole thing is a sick joke, like a person who is repetitively stabbing himself for no reason, but pretends there isn't any issue.

Drugs and guns are not same. Both problematic in their own right, but with very different natures and if you don't believe me, I double dare you to go on a killing spree bludgeoning people to death with a bag of weed.