[VS] Big mom vs akainu

[SixPathsMike101]

She was only able to ride that wave because of Pero's candy slug

ahhh okay

 

[Love Cook]

The examples I gave are, in fact, proof of this very thing.



Right, because Caesar can remotely control gases existing naturally in the air without his input, but can't control gases he created and put into the air. Ace can control fire something else made, but can control his own flames. Makes sense and adds up perfectly.

Another example: Crocodile controlling sand in the desert he didn't create.


Except Jimbei never effectively dealt with the magma. When he blocked Akainu's magma the first time, he literally had to face the brunt of being injured. Ivankov blocked a magma punch with his make-up, and passed out. Inazuma just got ran over. Handling it effectively would be what WB did, not what these fools did.

Most likely, but nothing that we've seen on-screen fall into this category. Her best feats on panel are all much inferior to things that Akainu can be scaled to being able to match or exceed himself.

What bullshit. Caesar can remotely control gases in the air, Enel can remotely create lightning in clouds, Crocodile can collapse and manipulate sand he didn't create himself, and Ace manipulated flames he didn't create itself, all external from their bodies, and you think that's not proof that they can do the same thing to those materials when made from their bodies? This is arguing for the sake of arguing even when you know you're completely wrong. Just drop it, you know you're grasping at straws now.

Grasping at straws ? You didn't give one example that proofs that Akainu would be able to control magma that is already out.

Crocodile always put his hands into the sand and uses his own sand to create that effect. Ace used an attack of his own to create an that hole and it was in a pillar of smoke not of fire. Ceasar talked about removing the oxygen, he could've achieved that by adding C02 to the air which is more likely for a gas man, besides there is nothing that suggests how he achieved that. And Enel used his Arc Maxim to generate the lightning storm and absorbed it himself to redirect it. That is a trick Nami also has done 100 times, without electrocuting herself.

So for all those lousy examples you gave there were always circumstances where you can't prove definitely how it's done, or that you're just plain wrong. And if you can't find 1 panel in a 20 year running series I think it's safe to say that this is a grey area and that everything your claiming is speculation.

Maybe Akainu can do it, maybe it is part of logia awakening. But maybe doesn't cut it now. Akainu hasn't show control over magma, as soon as it left his body.

So though luck you're the one who started arguing without any proof. And when there is no proof you can't win an argument.

 

[ToshiZO]

Akainu high diff. Doesn't need extreme for her that's reserved for the characters that matter.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Grasping at straws ? You didn't give one example that proofs that Akainu would be able to control magma that is already out.

I have given four examples of Logias showing the capability of doing so.

Crocodile always put his hands into the sand and uses his own sand to create that effect

Okay.

Ace used an attack of his own to create an that hole and it was in a pillar of smoke not of fire.

Explicitly stated to be "inside of the flames."

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Ceasar talked about removing the oxygen, he could've achieved that by adding C02 to the air which is more likely for a gas man, besides there is nothing that suggests how he achieved that.

Nothing except Caesar's explanation itself that says he's removing oxygen and controlling the air around him

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And Enel used his Arc Maxim to generate the lightning storm and absorbed it himself to redirect it. That is a trick Nami also has done 100 times, without electrocuting herself.

I was talking about El Thor.

So for all those lousy examples you gave there were always circumstances where you can't prove definitely how it's done, or that you're just plain wrong. And if you can't find 1 panel in a 20 year running series I think it's safe to say that this is a grey area and that everything your claiming is speculation.

It's actually the case of a forum member who's too full of himself and thickheaded to realize he's wrong when evidence is presented against him and will continue to argue what's blatantly shown in the manga didn't happen.

 

[Sakazuki]

Akainu dogs her

 

[Sakazuki]

Well nice fanfic but that is not how it works.

Even at the war of the best plenty of characters much lower on the ladder than Big Mom showed counters to the magma.

With her exceptional haki, her impenetrable skin and her ability to put soul into objects she has plenty of ways to combat the magma.

Hell she might even be able to put a soul into the magma and take control over it. Because Akainu can only pump it out, but as soon as it leaves his body he doesn't have control over it anymore. Big Mom can take control over the excess magma and have it absorb incoming magma attacks for her.

She controlled other elements as well, so there is no reason to think she wouldn't be able to weaponize Akainu's magma. So his limitless magma wouldn't work in his favor.

How is she gonna put her soul in akainus magma if he already has a soul? He isn't a para, he's a logia, meaning he is magma, so no big mom isn't putting her soul in his lava or his soul will just kill hers inside of it

 

[Love Cook]

I have given four examples of Logias showing the capability of doing so.


Okay.

Explicitly stated to be "inside of the flames."


Nothing except Caesar's explanation itself that says he's removing oxygen and controlling the air around him

You must be registered for see images

I was talking about El Thor.


It's actually the case of a forum member who's too full of himself and thickheaded to realize he's wrong when evidence is presented against him and will continue to argue what's blatantly shown in the manga didn't happen.

Ace is in the smoke you can tell because it's black and the fire is underneath. Also in the anime the "In the fire" shouting man says "in the smoke" So he isn't even in the fire while doing that.

You already admitted you were wrong about the crocodile one

El Thor comes from his hands:

[video=youtube;9EYZZgsf5bA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EYZZgsf5bA[/video]

And Ceasar well he might be a fringe case because he could be absorbing the oxygen into his body or diluting it with other gasses. It is never explained how he does it. but it doesn't take anything away from Akainu being able to control stagnant magma that has already left the body.

So I agree with your statement but with one exception: It's actually the case of a forum member who's too full of himself and thickheaded to realize he's wrong when evidence is presented against him and will continue to argue what's blatantly NOT shown in the manga and what didn't happen.

A Logia controlling elements that aren't part of their body's are borderline paramecia. There hasn't been an instance where a Logia produced an element, let it rest and came back to it.

How is she gonna put her soul in akainus magma if he already has a soul? He isn't a para, he's a logia, meaning he is magma, so no big mom isn't putting her soul in his lava or his soul will just kill hers inside of it

That's not what I wrote, I said she can take control over the magma that he already used and that is out of his body. Marineford and Punk hazard were covered in magma when he fought if she puts her soul into a puddle to create some kind of magma homie he can absorb the incoming magma attacks for her and grow. Or she can utilize it as a weapon like she makes a glove out of him as she shown with Zeus and Prometheus.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

Yeah so what ? She still has immense haki and durability ?

Akainu has haki too. It was enough to pierce through marco's phoenix flame protection amplified with haki. He could also pierce whitebeard, someone whose haki could split the sky during his clash with Shanks.

It's not like that punch makes him invincible. A lot of people in Marineford found ways to combat his magma, I bet a yonkou can too.

Besides if she already has a pool with magma with her soul in it she can even use it to absorb the punches.



That's not true at all, Akainu has not shown anything that would suggest he can control magma when it is out of his body even when it's still connected. Besides we have never seen him do that so you have no clue if that would even work. So that is pure speculation.

It is near invincible if someone with a mythical fruit lost against it. Logia users can do that. How is kizaru passing through locations without using his own light? Which was shown in sabaody arc.

Give an example where a logia had remote control over their element.

Ace lightened the flame in sanji's cigarette without body contact. In alabasta arc.

Jimbe and ivankov were able to deal with magma okay and they're not on the yonkou commander level. And who cares anyway if people lower than yonkou commanders are or aren't able to withstand it. She is a yonkou so what you're comparing it with is irrelevant.

Jinbe and ivankov didnt actually deal with an all out blast. Just the remnants of it.

 

[Love Cook]

Akainu has haki too. It was enough to pierce through marco's phoenix flame protection amplified with haki. He could also pierce whitebeard, someone whose haki could split the sky during his clash with Shanks.


It is near invincible if someone with a mythical fruit lost against it. Logia users can do that. How is kizaru passing through locations without using his own light? Which was shown in sabaody arc.



Ace lightened the flame in sanji's cigarette without body contact. In alabasta arc.


Jinbe and ivankov didnt actually deal with an all out blast. Just the remnants of it.

Let's not talk about haki pre-timeskip because the concept wasn't really introduced until Rayleigh explained it after the war.

If the marineford war would play out after the timeskip, haki would've been depicted very differently. Besides haki Big mom is yet to be hurt bu any kind of attack, was described as a mass of iron, and brushed off a gear 4th punch like it was nothing while it send katakuri and Doflamingo flying. So her defense is no joke even while she isn't actively using abilities.

If you're talking about Kizaru, he does use his own light to move between locations

[video=youtube;j-fYtzas8GU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-fYtzas8GU[/video]

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

Let's not talk about haki pre-timeskip because the concept wasn't really introduced until Rayleigh explained it after the war.

Does that mean black hole didnt exist before they were discovered? Just because they were introduced later doesnt mean anything, it was shown and hinted several times, when luffy fought marines, when kizaru fought rayleigh, when shanks fought akainu, garp punching marco etc etc etc.

If the marineford war would play out after the timeskip, haki would've been depicted very differently. Besides haki Big mom is yet to be hurt bu any kind of attack, was described as a mass of iron, and brushed off a gear 4th punch like it was nothing while it send katakuri and Doflamingo flying. So her defense is no joke even while she isn't actively using abilities.

It played out exactly as haki is meant to be. The only difference is the black coating. Her defense might not be a joke, but akainu's offense also isnt a joke. It must be noted that akainu could burst through various powerful defenses like marco's phoenix haki intangibility, jinbei's durable body, and the ice of aokiji completely, something which withstood mihwak slash somewhat. Akainu's defense is not dull either, he could survive and come back up to his feet after whitebeard's strongest haki quake bubble strike. All these feats lean towards him breaking through big mom's defense.

If you're talking about Kizaru, he does use his own light to move between locations

Kizaru part conceded, but ace has lightened sanji cigarette with fire despite no body contact. Which means logias can control thier elements remotely.

[video=youtube;j-fYtzas8GU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-fYtzas8GU[/video][/QUOTE]

 

[SixPathsMike101]

Akainu dogs her

Nah, I still dont have him beating any yonko

 

[chopstickchakra]

Ace is in the smoke you can tell because it's black and the fire is underneath. Also in the anime the "In the fire" shouting man says "in the smoke" So he isn't even in the fire while doing that.

You already admitted you were wrong about the crocodile one

El Thor comes from his hands:

[video=youtube;9EYZZgsf5bA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EYZZgsf5bA[/video]

And Ceasar well he might be a fringe case because he could be absorbing the oxygen into his body or diluting it with other gasses. It is never explained how he does it. but it doesn't take anything away from Akainu being able to control stagnant magma that has already left the body.

So I agree with your statement but with one exception: It's actually the case of a forum member who's too full of himself and thickheaded to realize he's wrong when evidence is presented against him and will continue to argue what's blatantly NOT shown in the manga and what didn't happen.

A Logia controlling elements that aren't part of their body's are borderline paramecia. There hasn't been an instance where a Logia produced an element, let it rest and came back to it.



That's not what I wrote, I said she can take control over the magma that he already used and that is out of his body. Marineford and Punk hazard were covered in magma when he fought if she puts her soul into a puddle to create some kind of magma homie he can absorb the incoming magma attacks for her and grow. Or she can utilize it as a weapon like she makes a glove out of him as she shown with Zeus and Prometheus.

Even if she could take control of his magma what good would it do though besides maybe being a shield? She can't use it as a weapon, how would magma hurt magma?

 

[Love Cook]

Even if she could take control of his magma what good would it do though besides maybe being a shield? She can't use it as a weapon, how would magma hurt magma?

That's not really the point it's a proof of concept. It matters that she CAN do it. She probably can make some kind of lava fist out of it. If she has a soul in the magma she can absorb incoming magma like Zeus did with the lightning. So Akainu would be at a disadvantage at that point compared to most other fighters.

And some of the things in this thread are just speculation like Akainu re-using his magma he already shot out of his body. There is no precedent of a logia just using the element because it's around him, that might be possible with awakening but so far we've only seen logia having control over their bodies. Controlling objects/elements outside of the body is more paramecia related.

 

[Sakazuki]

Nah, I still dont have him beating any yonko

I don't see any yonko stepping to akainu and surviving, besides kaido, and all he would do is survive, not win. He's too much of a Savage on the battlefield. The dog is ruthless.

 

[TheNuetrix]

I don't see any yonko stepping to akainu and surviving, besides kaido, and all he would do is survive, not win. He's too much of a Savage on the battlefield. The dog is ruthless.

What about Blackbeard? His magma is practically useless against the Dark-Dark Fruit and we all saw what happened last time Akainu tried to step up to the Tremor-Tremor Fruit. Yonko Blackbeard would destroy him.
Also if Akainu was so strong why didn't he atleast attempt to pull up on Shanks at Marineford, instead he backed down like a scared pup.
The only Yonko I think Akainu has a chance against is Big Mom.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Ace is in the smoke you can tell because it's black and the fire is underneath. Also in the anime the "In the fire" shouting man says "in the smoke" So he isn't even in the fire while doing that.

In the manga panel, you can see the lightly colored spots in the surrounding black smoke. That is fire, and it is present when Ace creates the tunnel.

Stop this with this "in the anime" nonsense. The anime is a secondary source, an adaptation, while the manga is the primary source of canon. In the official translation of the primary source, it is stated that Ace created a tunnel within the flames. The only thing that supercedes it is the original Japanese text.

El Thor comes from his hands:

[video=youtube;9EYZZgsf5bA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EYZZgsf5bA[/video]

This is one variant. There is another that manifests and launches from the clouds.

And Ceasar well he might be a fringe case because he could be absorbing the oxygen into his body or diluting it with other gasses. It is never explained how he does it. but it doesn't take anything away from Akainu being able to control stagnant magma that has already left the body.

This is a special, desperate kind of mental gymnastics when the manga right in front of you has Caesar saying he removed the oxygen and is controlling the air around him, and you still say "We don't know what happened, he might have put CO2 into the air."

A Logia controlling elements that aren't part of their body's are borderline paramecia. There hasn't been an instance where a Logia produced an element, let it rest and came back to it.

I'd love to hear the mental gymnastics that explains how Logias can control their element created externally from themselves, but can't control the material they created.

Let's not talk about haki pre-timeskip because the concept wasn't really introduced until Rayleigh explained it after the war.

Haki was first mentioned in the Jaya Arc. It was mentioned by name during the Water 7 Arc, we saw it in chapter 1, and it was displayed during Skypeia, as well as named and displayed many times during the war and Amazon Lily.

What about Blackbeard? His magma is practically useless against the Dark-Dark Fruit

No it's not. For the ability to nullify Akainu's to come into play, he'd have to touch him, which would end disastrously against Akainu. This ability, and his ability to absorb things into the darkness, have both been shown to have gaps due to Teach's cockiness, such as when Ace landed several flame-based attacks on Teach's body directly.

and we all saw what happened last time Akainu tried to step up to the Tremor-Tremor Fruit.

When Akainu went up against the fruit in an actual fight, he contended its power evenly. The only time the fruit damaged him was when WB had to sneak up on him and jump him, making it far from an actual, valid fight, and even then, Akainu ate two of the strongest Quakes seen in the war without being further hindered in the war.

Also if Akainu was so strong why didn't he atleast attempt to pull up on Shanks at Marineford, instead he backed down like a scared pup

.
Because fighting an Emperor isn't as simple as "Let's go right now, right here." With the Balance of the Three Powers and the power vacuums that occur in the New World when an Emperor falls, the WG/Marines would have nothing to gain from beating Shanks at Marineford. Shanks bluffed and knew they wouldn't call it because of the politics involved in fighting an Emperor.

 

[TheNuetrix]

Because fighting an Emperor isn't as simple as "Let's go right now, right here." With the Balance of the Three Powers and the power vacuums that occur in the New World when an Emperor falls, the WG/Marines would have nothing to gain from beating Shanks at Marineford. Shanks bluffed and knew they wouldn't call it because of the politics involved in fighting an Emperor.

It's Akainu we're talking about. He HATES pirates and would go as far as kill his own fellow Marines and even a ship full of innocent people and children. Do you really think he's in the slightest bit concerned about 'power vacuums' or 'balance'. To him pirates are pirates and his ruthless absolute justice is what he lives by. If he had the chance to kill all the Yonko I''m sure he would take it without hesitation. The reason he backed down was because he knew he couldn't beat Shanks in his condition. I don't know if Shanks' crew could have finished off the Marines but at the end of the day his threat worked, bluff or not.
The whole idea of the 3GreatPowers balance doesn't make much sense either. Don't you thinks the Marines and WG would be happy if the Yonko died. Why would they want to maintain a 'balance' with their strongest enemies.

 

[Skull Knight]

Shanks bluffed and knew they wouldn't call it because of the politics involved in fighting an Emperor.

Shanks doesn't give a shit about anybody.
He openly challenged WB n Mihawk for a duel(both tittle holders).
Marines fear him so much that they send fleets to stop him.
For Marines power vaccum means nothing. they never went to the islands which WB once reigned. They let BB take his place.
And let's not forget Fujitora said that they are going to do something about Shichibukai so power vaccum was never the reason. They knew very well that BB was there who ate 2df. WB remaining pirates were also present and on top of that a fresh Yonko with his crew has arrived while Sengoku n Akainu both were injured thats why they don't want to stretch that war and accepted Shanks terms.
Don't give lame reason that he was bluffing.

 

[Punk Hazard]

It's Akainu we're talking about. He HATES pirates and would go as far as kill his own fellow Marines and even a ship full of innocent people and children. Do you really think he's in the slightest bit concerned about 'power vacuums' or 'balance'. To him pirates are pirates and his ruthless absolute justice is what he lives by.

Yes, I do think so. Because Akainu's dedication is to justice, not just a hatred of pirates. Allowing a power vacuum to be created and throwing major chaos into the lives of citizens in the NW world would not be justice.

If he had the chance to kill all the Yonko I''m sure he would take it without hesitation. The reason he backed down was because he knew he couldn't beat Shanks in his condition. I don't know if Shanks' crew could have finished off the Marines but at the end of the day his threat worked, bluff or not.

His threat worked because he knew the WG wouldn't risk the chaos that would come from an Emperor falling.

The whole idea of the 3GreatPowers balance doesn't make much sense either. Don't you thinks the Marines and WG would be happy if the Yonko died. Why would they want to maintain a 'balance' with their strongest enemies.

In a perfect world, yes, the Yonko wouldn't exist. But they do, so a balance is needed to be maintained between them to avoid chaos.

For Marines power vaccum means nothing. they never went to the islands which WB once reigned. They let BB take his place.

Except they did make attempts to stop Blackbeard. Akainu going when he wanted to trade in Bonney, for example. To say the Marines don't care about chaos that affects citizens in the OP world shows an incredible lack of attention to the story, since they're all about justice for the people.

And let's not forget Fujitora said that they are going to do something about Shichibukai so power vaccum was never the reason.

What the hell would one person wanting to abolish the Shichibukai have to do with the power vacuums that would happen if the Yonko fell.

s

 

[Love Cook]

In the manga panel, you can see the lightly colored spots in the surrounding black smoke. That is fire, and it is present when Ace creates the tunnel.

Stop this with this "in the anime" nonsense. The anime is a secondary source, an adaptation, while the manga is the primary source of canon. In the official translation of the primary source, it is stated that Ace created a tunnel within the flames. The only thing that supercedes it is the original Japanese text.


This is one variant. There is another that manifests and launches from the clouds.

This is a special, desperate kind of mental gymnastics when the manga right in front of you has Caesar saying he removed the oxygen and is controlling the air around him, and you still say "We don't know what happened, he might have put CO2 into the air."


I'd love to hear the mental gymnastics that explains how Logias can control their element created externally from themselves, but can't control the material they created.


Haki was first mentioned in the Jaya Arc. It was mentioned by name during the Water 7 Arc, we saw it in chapter 1, and it was displayed during Skypeia, as well as named and displayed many times during the war and Amazon Lily.



No it's not. For the ability to nullify Akainu's to come into play, he'd have to touch him, which would end disastrously against Akainu. This ability, and his ability to absorb things into the darkness, have both been shown to have gaps due to Teach's cockiness, such as when Ace landed several flame-based attacks on Teach's body directly.


When Akainu went up against the fruit in an actual fight, he contended its power evenly. The only time the fruit damaged him was when WB had to sneak up on him and jump him, making it far from an actual, valid fight, and even then, Akainu ate two of the strongest Quakes seen in the war without being further hindered in the war.


.
Because fighting an Emperor isn't as simple as "Let's go right now, right here." With the Balance of the Three Powers and the power vacuums that occur in the New World when an Emperor falls, the WG/Marines would have nothing to gain from beating Shanks at Marineford. Shanks bluffed and knew they wouldn't call it because of the politics involved in fighting an Emperor.

No you're wrong about the ace thing because the tunnel of fire is his own doing, he made that with a move of his own in the smoke, that is different from manipulating the air around you.

I would like to see the panel of Enel using El Thor where he doesn't uses it from his hands please because I can't find it.

There is no mental gymnastic when a logia creates an element from their body it's their devil fruit power. When it has left the body and served it's purpose in an attack they can no longer use it. They're not benders from avatar. This never happened in the manga but you keep making it up. Otherwise what was stopping akainu on marineford to control his huge mass of lava and just move it around like a giant blob burning everyone from a distance ?

Funny that you're reacting to the part of Ceasar Clown so strongly because as soon as I give an alternative reading of the facts it suddenly is ridiculous. But your own speculation is being defended like it's the word from God. The air has to move somewhere Ceasar isn't a magician. So the best explanation would be that he absorbs the O2 into his own body. But like I said it's a grey area no one knows how he does that. So it can't be used as an example.

You were also wrong about crocodile. So as you can see there is not much left. And you still haven't given a single instance that proves a logia user can control elements outside of the body.

"Haki was first mentioned in the Jaya Arc" Lol, no shit Sherlock. But again leave it to you to miss the point again. Mr. trade a leg for a ship.

Fact is that the use of haki took a drastic turn right after the timeskip and that now even the janitor in Big Mom's palace can coat his broom with it. If Haki was displayed like that during Marineford it would've been a different war. Now there were mentions of haki but it was never really utilized or capitalized on because the concept didn't have any body yet. Only after Rayleigh explained it to us as the reader we were able to see it as well.

But all fun and games, but still no proof so I wish I had a big red stamp that said SPECULATION, would be easier for someone as delusional as you. Pretty weird to defend something this hard that never happened in the manga. Even looking for the tiniest loophole that Ace might be coming out of the fire and not out of the smoke, while the manga and anime clearly show it as smoke.