Team Speed vs Team Zombie

[Edogawa]

Picture this: chameleon, cerberus, bird summons (since Nagato cannot walk in that state, it's needed for him to move) have shared vision. Add the heads of Shurado if you want to Nagato so all of them can see everything. Ay goes straight to the bird, not even from one side, or the rear, just straight. How is the bird dodging that?. I'm sure all 5 sets of eyes will see Ay going for the bird, so how is the bird going to be faster than a lightened Ay and dodge the attack?. It's not about sensing or reacting to the attack, it's about having the speed to actually dodge the attack (as Lee explained to Sasuke).

When was it shown Ay was fast on air as much as he's on ground? Even if Onoki lightened him, he was never shown fast on air. The flaw with your point is, linear attacks are easily read by Doujutsu precognition. Sasuke was not as fast as V1 Bee and was getting blitzed prior by his 7 Sword unorthodox style, yet he was keeping up with his V1 cloak due to his linear movements. Shared vision was the reason Ay's speed would not have sufficed against Madara, and Mei used Hidden Mist to block it. No reason to assume it's sufficing here, when Mei is not around.

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As for the speed feat, you're saying since it was said that Ay was the fastest shinobi, and KCM Naruto dodged Ay, KCM Naruto = fastest shinobi alive or something among those lines? Cause else I'm not understanding what a thrown sword or the other scan has to do with anything.

KCM Naruto is faster than Ay who is in turn faster than 7 Gates Gai. KCM Naruto literally says, and fully aware of his speed, he can't catch or attack the paths with their Rinnegan shared vision. You're saying Gai is going to blitz Nagato, yet nothing by feats proves this.

Summoning Jutsu is more than one hand sign: Boar → Dog → Bird → Monkey → Ram. And not because it's a space-time ninjutsu, it would be instant. Kamui, as used by Kakashi, or when Obito tries to absorb something besides himself are not instant either.

5 hand signs is not always required for Summoning Jutsu, and there have been endless situations characters summoned something without hand seals; Nagato summoned Mazo by touching the ground. It's faster than Hirudora, that's all need to be said.

If we asume Hirudora's end is a sonic boom of manga proportions, then it has to be faster than sound (based on the description of the technique). At any rate, already moving that much wind pressure would be ilogical at a lower speed. It doesn't have to breach ST, it has to kill Nagato's summon to render him immobile, thats all. Gai agreed to what??

This is a fictional world; Shinobi on average can move at comparable speed to sound. The problem with this strategy is, if Gai resorts to Hirudora which he has only one chance of 1 or 2 shots before exhaustion, it wouldn't accomplish anything because Nagato will just re-summon his animals back again, since they are immortal especially the dogs who divide from any hit and multiply in power. Konoha's intelligence agency stated that Taijutsu doesn't work on Deva Path (Kakashi + Naruto), while fully aware of Gai's Taijutsu prowess. If Gai disagreed with it, he would have said something.

Don't have to, they have to move just enough to rip Nagato's head off. Also, BT doesn't restrict movement either (or at least Kakashi was able to throw a chain to held the effects of the gravitational pull), so if he pulls Gai, he can smash him with a Hirudora next to his face (since we haven't seen Nagato use BT + another technique simultaneously as far as I remember). Again, we're talking about decrepit Nagato here, he won't be surviving a point blank attack that took Kisame down for the fight. What proof did A have to claim that he was the fastest shinobi btw?, because if that's what the speed ranking is based upon this parts, it's shaky at its best. Not saying he's slow, just doubting that just cause he claims he's the fastest shinobi, he automatically is.

> Nagato is far more durable than Kisame, especially with his Asura armor. Asura Pain when utilizing 1/6 of Nagato's path power can tank Raiton Clone, Akimichi hand punch and Raikiri. Nagato 6x times more durable than Asura Pain. Kisame can be killed by a sword, whereas Asura Pain tanked Raikiri. Hirudora only incapacitated Kisame for a short period of time from point-blank underwater, where air pressure is stronger. It has no feats of putting a dent on Nagato, who is far more durable than Kisame; even if it actually put damage somehow, Nagato will heal it with Naraka Path.

> The BT Pain used on Kakashi was weak. When Nagato used it on Naruto, latter couldn't move. Nagato > Pain in power.

> Kishimoto outright portrays Ay as fastest Shinobi alive (before KCM Naruto), and he took in consideration of all characters alive at the time, which Gai happen to be. Portrayal doesn't happen like this, unless there is 100% certainty.

No, I'm saying that he can use the chakra hands to move (not necessarily throw) a marked kunai away from the core, then teleport to it. Repeating that as long as needed, he can escape the pull in short bursts (and if he touches the other 2 with the chakra hands, he's pulling them with him).

This doesn't make sense. The core can pull heavy mass like TBB, FRS and Yasaka Magatama. It can pull people. It can pull mountain range and deep earth's layer. I'm sure you know a kunai has mass, right? So it will be pulled to the core like everything else in its gravitational range alongside every kunai Minato threw at the battlefield. Minato will have nowhere to teleport and neither his teammates.

I haven't honestly mention:

-large-scale ST like Biju or mountain or village
-Gedo Mazo
-Soul dragon phantom
-Asra canon blast
-etc.

It's not smart to pin non-Rikudo characters against a Rikudo character. It's a stomp match.

 

[FleeOnSight]

I may be a Minato fanboy but idc who you are..its damn near impossible to defend against FTG when minato is teamed with other kage lol especially someone as fast as Ay. I mean come on they would have to sit in susanoo lol and Oonoki destroying that shit.

 

[KidGamer65]

@KG before I fully rebuttal which might take a while, when did Kisame react to AT?

Him and Gai used their attacks at the same exact time when Hirudora first debuted. That’s Hirudora only speed feat before intercepting Madara, which is not a feat that translates to any kind of blitz unless you want to argue Kakashi can blitz high tiers as well just cause he intercepted Obito

 

[Haizaki]

Him and Gai used their attacks at the same exact time when Hirudora first debuted. That’s Hirudora only speed feat before intercepting Madara, which is not a feat that translates to any kind of blitz unless you want to argue Kakashi can blitz high tiers as well just cause he intercepted Obito

More like Gai used it as a reaction to his GSB. Manga is read from right to left, even the anime makes this clear as well

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Then we have the fact that they were underwater which even gives Kisame more of the advantage, GSB, other water techniques and Kisame himself would obviously be faster underwater in the worst case scenario but it's irrelevant since we've clearly seen he created his first but then again, it makes absolutely zero sense to even argue that.

No, that's ridiculous to downplay feats like that. Even you were arguing that Sasuke/Naruto were so fast with their attacks that they forced Juubito to block and not dodge, recall that scenario you've had with others in the past. Why all of a sudden would one argue this:

Spoiler

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The pink arrow shows this in fact, that was the point Gai positioned for Hirudora. The bottom scan shows when he used the seal right after that position and next we see a surprised Madara with an exclamation Mark(Gai right in his face)

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-- Madara blocked and in most cases kept falling back to avoid Gai's ordinary punches and kicks let alone a technique he had 0 knowledge on. There's literally zero way one can argue that not being a feat, he was forced to block.

- The reason I spoke about the Susano'o one is mostly just to point out the fact that the initiation is much faster. Also, Kakashi doesn't have to open a Gate and use a seal before before using Raikiri especially considering the distance he was to Obito compared to that of Gai to Madara.

 

[Oblivionx]

This is tough to decide as so many powerful characters are thrown in there. Team speed definitely wins s2 and i think they should take s1 as well. Susano is the only issue here, which i believe itachi can't use consistently. If he can then team zombie might take s1.

 

[KidGamer65]

More like Gai used it as a reaction to his GSB. Manga is read from right to left, even the anime makes this clear as well

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Then we have the fact that they were underwater which even gives Kisame more of the advantage, GSB, other water techniques and Kisame himself would obviously be faster underwater in the worst case scenario but it's irrelevant since we've clearly seen he created his first but then again, it makes absolutely zero sense to even argue that.

No, that's ridiculous to downplay feats like that. Even you were arguing that Sasuke/Naruto were so fast with their attacks that they forced Juubito to block and not dodge, recall that scenario you've had with others in the past. Why all of a sudden would one argue this:

Spoiler

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The pink arrow shows this in fact, that was the point Gai positioned for Hirudora. The bottom scan shows when he used the seal right after that position and next we see a surprised Madara with an exclamation Mark(Gai right in his face)

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-- Madara blocked and in most cases kept falling back to avoid Gai's ordinary punches and kicks let alone a technique he had 0 knowledge on. There's literally zero way one can argue that not being a feat, he was forced to block.

- The reason I spoke about the Susano'o one is mostly just to point out the fact that the initiation is much faster. Also, Kakashi doesn't have to open a Gate and use a seal before before using Raikiri especially considering the distance he was to Obito compared to that of Gai to Madara.

:lol Obviously Manga is read from left to right, however double pages and double panels (which is exactly what this is) are used to illustrate events occurring simultaneously across multiple panels. They called their techniques at the same exact time. That is a fact.

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They also fired them at the same time. That is fact. If I used the logic you are using here I'd be saying Gai fired his attack first because "Manga is read left to right". :lol Bold is also based on nothing. Why would Kisame be faster underwater when he's not fused with Samehada? Even, but not likely, GSB might not be faster underwater when water puts resistance on anything moving under it unless it has the necessary biological or mechanical features to adapt, such as fish and Kisame when he becomes a fish type being after fusing with Samehada. Then we can simply use common sense. Underwater Kisame can properly react to Hirudora and even match it's traveling speed with his own technique yet above water it's so fast that JJ Madara has to block and not evade? Yeah, ok.

Madara blocked Hirudora when Gai released it at point blank range. That has nothing to do with how fast Hirudora can travel as it was formed right in front of and around Madara's body (i.e the tech didn't travel so where is this speed feat coming from?), which is why he was forced to cut it down instead of dodging it. There is no speed feat as Hirudora didn't travel nor does a point blank release mean anything from a distance and I shouldn't have to type any more than that sentence right there to end this point.

The Obito thing is also a terrible comparison. We were visibly shown that Obito was forced to block as he was dodging their attacks before. Madara was dicking around with Gai, backstepping his punches and kicks instead of creating distance with Shunshin or flight, meaning he was not trying his hardest to evade.

So no, unless Gai does what he did to Madara there will be no, Hirudora is used from a distance and Nagato or anyone else can't react.

Nobody is downplaying anything. That's you putting Gai on a pedestal too high for his showings and flat out denying what happened in the Manga to try and give Hirudora feats it does not and will not ever have. Hirudora has 2 speed feats, and none of them are even close to being blitz worthy so let's not.

 

[Beans2]

@Kidgamer

White Rage is either liquid or light. Physical attacks aren't going to work.

First of all White Rage isn't physical, so no physical attack is going to destroy the orb.

You realize how ridiculous this sounds right
What you are asserting is that just because white rage is made of liquid or light it is immune to physical attacks which is something that was never shown to be true. Liquid or light can be dispersed. Bijuu Dama is a physical attack, does that mean it cannot destroy white rage? That being said, you never even offered proof that the White Rage dragon/orb is liquid or light. It could very well just be made of chakra the same way Susanoo or Kyubi avatar is made of chakra (not saying it for sure is, but it could be.)

The white rage orb and dragon have no durability feats so there's no reason it can't be destroyed with:

-a weighted punch
-rasengan
-hirudora
-Asakujaku
-food cart destroyer

I skimmed your posts with Haizaki and your strategy mostly seems to revolve around Kabuto using WR to paralyze the opponents first. So if Team Speed never lets the jutsu take effect, how do they win?

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Lol, how does Team Speed not destroy these guys? Especially in scenario 2. KCM Minato is just ridiculous, the whole team can't be touched given their own speed and FTG combinations.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

White rage stops gai's auditory perception and imbalances his coherent coordination of senses . It's a spreading wide attack so it could probably immobilize all of them in the get-go. Gai and A and minato get's stunned by kabuto and with his sensory ability + jugo sage mode danger perception + liquification makes him quite capable of evading minato , A and Gai attack. Considering he was capable of pressing both Sasuke and itachi . Nagato shinra tensei can be avoided easily by guy and not only that gai is the perfect counter to nagato , he doesn't use Chakra , so he would dish the hexk outta preta , which is arguably the second most powerful path in combat . Guy was not afraid of going eight gates against one rinnegan obito and the tailed beasts yet he considered eighth gate not an answer to three tomoe part one itachi and called the entire anbu black ops force to assist him against itachi and kisame along with asuma as backup . So three tomoe itachi speed and taijutsu >> 8th gate guy , so itachi's trouble would be the danger perception of kyuubi chakra mode , but he would counter it with his soul reading ability like he changed his jutsu against kabuto in an instant , after reading kabuto's mind . Scenario one goes to team zombie mid diff .
Totsuka soloes hard in scenario two , but that wouldn't be a debate , so excusing that , jinton get's absorbed by nagato and drags onoki who lightens A towards himself and uses ashura path to rip him or pulverize him using mobile missiles . A could tackle nagato and blitz him , nagato wouldnt absorb raiton armor since it's nintaijutsu , a physical attack like amaterasu and chidori , his gravity push is completely useless as ANBU black ops stopped it along with a an extremely weakened tsunade who healed the entire village so bad that she weakened herself to old age , which didnt happen in madara fight after all that intense healing . Asura path wouldnt be able to pierce through with the missiles , so gets shatted on like sage naruto did . If guy utilizes kyuubi chakra mode , even then he wouldnt be able completely evade white rage together with eighth gate , since the attack is extremely widespread and stunning . Applied together with tayuya's genjutsu would make it a shit - on for gai and A , who would be completely helpless against genjutsu , as A fell prey to madara's seemingly weaker genjutsu . Minato wouldnt do much great in this scenario as he is only fast because of FTG and not bare speed , he got blitzed by juubito in KCM , there's nothing to say he would evade the attack of someone who claimed he was the closest thing to SO6P . Itachi's Susanoo V4 blocks hirudora , and itachi uses tsukiyomi on gai , if he looks down , he uses amaterasu , and the while gai takes to shed it off , itachi grabs him with susanoo arm and crushes him , though gai has a 5% chance of breaking free with sheer force , but doubt it since A couldnt do anything despite his bare muscle power and raiton armour. Nagato is pretty much useless in this scenario as he wouldnt be able to absorb kyuubi chakra of guy , A and minato , lightened A would completely shatter nagato up . His best path , deva couldnt dodge a rasengan despite seeing it all well . Nagato didnt absorb kyuubi chakra arms of naruto let alone the physical looking cloak , and he wouldnt be able to absorb the blue steam and red steam of gates gai . Chibaku Tensei is also a weak counter since kyuubi cloak guy A minato would blitz outta the rocks , which are thier foothold and land on nagato's foothold and be done with him , or they could crush through the black orb of Chibaku Tensei with bijuudama three of them combined , even one is enough , since it was never stated to be a necessity , that three bijuudama level attacks were needed to obliterate black core . Or guy and A crushes through the orb with bare body speed thrusts and force , minato too breaks it with oodama sage energy rasengan , normal rasengan could carve a mountain according to the db , nagato has no more viable options , jigokudo gets hella crushed , it's never touching A or the gang , although if touched could do severe damage , but gai could break the hold with eighth gate and kyuubi cloak , even though naruto by himself couldnt . Sage kabuto has karin's higher-than-dojutsu sensory capacity which rivals kyuubi chakra sensing and perception , as it could accurately sense the evil chakra and warm chakra of naruro like naruto does in kyuubi mode . Itachi tsukuyomi breaks them in spiritual pieces as it affects not only mind but the spirit according to kisame and kakashi agreeing to that . A would look in his eyes , while itachi would react easily to kyuubi lightened mode A as he could easily react to naruto kyuubi mode . Kabuto uses muki tensei and uses the surrounding environment to his arsenal , twisting it and creating spikes all over , which would elongate and pierce seventh gate guy , but would be negated eighth gate + kyuubi chakra mode guy , A would surely getting damaged but still would shrugg it off and then goes on to get blitzed by itachi's taijutsu and physical strength , which force broke the wall behind sasuke without even directly hitting it . If A and minato dont look at his eyes , his crows possessing sharingan would flow into the floor and make them stare into it , if minato closes eyes and relies on sensing and danger perception , the crows pluck his eyes out and makes him blind or either he gets forced to stare , same for guy ,except that in red steam mode and kyuubi chakra merge form , he would repel genjutsu somewhat but against tsukiyomi he would get cracked and blistered by itachi along with itachi's superior taijutsu which would high difficulty beat eighth gate kyuubi chakra gai . Yasaka magatama , a deity weapon according to db also breaks a balanceless guy and A , because of white rage stunning , into pieces .

Extremely high diff , scenario two is won by team zombie .

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

It could very well just be made of chakra the same way Susanoo or Kyubi avatar is made of chakra (not saying it for sure is, but it could be.

Susanoo is not chakra . Why didnt sasuke or madara rebuilt it when it tore off or how the hell is it possible for Susanoo to actually break it it was chakra since an edo madara has infinite chakra ?

 

[Haizaki]

Holy shit I didn't realize an updated Scenario was made, Team Speed takes both scenarios. @KidGamer How can you possibly try so hard to argue this and then there's an added fact that Gai as well didn't want to kill Kisame. War Arc feats completely demolishes what we saw previously, For example, you can't go ahead and say because we saw Lee taking like 5 pages or so to open the gates initially in Page 86, that means even though we see him open the Gates instantly in Page 237, Page 86 situation should still take place. That won't make sense, improved feat should slap away what we saw especially when Gai didn't try to kill the Gai "Hirudora is a punch faster than no other" Kisame couldn't finish reacting mentally to a kick from Asakujaku

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a technique that creates flames from punching so fast that it creates flames, yet AT a faster technique(albeit it requires a seal, but the actual technique)? This is ridiculous, not mention both Gai and Kisame made seals before they used their attacks. KidGamer, you want to tell me Kisame literally matched his hand movements? Physically? When a single twitch was met with this

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Borderline ridiculous. Also:

Doton: Dochuu Senkou:
Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage* (土遁・土中潜航, Doton: Dochuu Senkou)
Ninjutsu, C-rank, Offensive, Supplementary, Short to mid-range (0-10m)
User: Hoshigaki Kisame

A great shark's fang, swimming in the ground!!

A jutsu that transforms the earth surrounding the user into a fluid. Closing in on the enemy with high speed by swimming underground. The underground is a blind spot, so the target has no warning, allowing the user to launch a surprise attack. Kisame lets the "Samehada" protrude from the ground. By using this technique in conjunction with a weapon, it also gains a high assault ability.

↑The "Samehada" draws near like a shark's dorsal fin!!

This isn't a merged Kisame. He transforms the surrounding earth into fluid in order for him to move faster as that's clearly the case with this Jutsu. What you're telling me now is Kisame can't be faster underwater? Merging with Samehada only grants him the ability to heal, absorb and sense chakra. Probably breathe as well. Also, GSB is formed from the very water it's in, created from the water it's in and matter of fact Water Style Ninjutsu generally needs a water source in order to be used unless you're insanely skilled

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-- But you're suggesting it would not be faster in water? Okay scratch that, let's talk about the qualities of Shark Bullet, the shark like qualities it has exhibited showing to us, DB4:

Sution Daikoudan no Jutsu

The shark's roar eats and shredded to pieces the enemy jutsu, while one's own power restores!!

A massive chakra bullet in the shape of a large shark, the Jutsu bursts towards the target it's aimed at. It has the ability to absorb the enemies chakra and change that into ones own power. The large shark stores the opponents chakra in it's belly, it's bottomless appetite is sated by it's fangs shredding the enemy to pieces

The opponent's and this jutsu clash, the chakra is eaten which results in a massive release

First of all it has fangs to shred the opponent's jutsu, second of all, the weaker variant "Shark bullet" was used by Kisame to swim at high speed in water to evade these guys after just using it to attack

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-- There's no reason why a non water jutsu would be able to move as fast or faster than it in water. It clearly takes form of a shark with extra qualities. Even Kisame says it in these scan, the shark isn't growing any bigger

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, clearly it's faster than the normal jutsu in it's terrain but this is irrelevant before someone who didn't want to kill him but take him back for intel.

Also, it's pathetic you're saying this:

Madara was dicking around with Gai, backstepping his punches and kicks instead of creating distance with Shunshin or flight, meaning he was not trying his hardest to evade.

This right here is where we should draw the line, where it's not worth it to continue debating, so he was dicking around when it came to Gai but not Minato.. He was dicking around because well, you feel like chucking it up to something, obviously. He was dicking around hence Kishi thought to use the exclamation mark, hence Gaara speaking about his inhumane movement. Makes sense oh, Hirudora is a Mid Range technique. I don't have to worry since that's where Nagato isn't reacting to with Shinra Tensei, since that's only where it can be used from, the Mid Range.

I mean KG it's crazy to see you arguing all these points, these are points you've joined us to argue in favor of especially with the Minato fans, in numerous threads with us Gai fans and other intellectual debaters because it's only common sense and Manga facts. Imagine how you felt against KingHashirama arguing these exact points I'm arguing now, not one left check it out in the bold:

Spoiler

The only one making excuses is the guy complaining about Kishimoto's writing and using it as a counter argument. If Madara could've cut Gai down, he would've just like he did to Minato. End of story.





Wrong. Being on the offense doesn't mean you can't teleport. The simple fact that Minato teleported away from Obito in that instance proves you wrong. Lol. He can teleport, he just couldn't do it fast enough.

Whether or not Gai is faster than the JJ is irrelevant to me and my argument. I'm only showing you the speed difference between Sage Minato and 7G Gai. Gai not being as fast as Minato's Shunshin is literally just a baseless claim from you, like everything you posted.





Read the Manga before you reply, not after. Gai used Hirudora, thus entering the 7G, after he had been bound and thrashed by Madara. When you have panels that show or prove he used 7G like he did to JJ Madara, then we can talk.



Yes, with enhancements.



I see your point here. I'll agree. Doesn't change much though.




That assumes that the attacks are equal, and that's an assumption you don't have the luxury to make.




Your conclusion literally has no evidence backing it but "blunt force damage=/=Piercing Damage". Rasengan did more damage because it was stronger at that point in time, despite Chidori being more focused.




I didn't say that 7G Gai's punches can hurt Ay. Though bringing an example where Gai didn't hit his hardest isn't relevant cause Gai wasn't trying to kill Kisame. But I'll drop the weapon point. Not getting into an extensive back and forth argument over something that isn't necessary to win.







-Minato attacks Madara.
-Madara cuts him down.

-Gai attacks Madara.
-Madara backsteps to evade him.

Hmm, I wonder what the difference here is. Lol. Gai was too fast for Madara to cut down like he did to Minato.



Uh, no. Ay doesn't have the speed feats to evade a Hirudora released at point blank range. Not when Madara had to cut through it instead of just loldodging it like he did the rest of Gai's attacks.



Ay can dodge if it were used at long, maybe mid range. Point blank? Not a chance in hell. And that doesn't even include the fact that despite being able to take Gai's normal hits with minimal damage, the force will still push him back and make him lose his footing, making it even easier for the already point blank Hirudora to obliterate him.

How do chakra arms help?

:lol

 

[MightGai]

When was it shown Ay was fast on air as much as he's on ground? Even if Onoki lightened him, he was never shown fast on air. The flaw with your point is, linear attacks are easily read by Doujutsu precognition. Sasuke was not as fast as V1 Bee and was getting blitzed prior by his 7 Sword unorthodox style, yet he was keeping up with his V1 cloak due to his linear movements. Shared vision was the reason Ay's speed would not have sufficed against Madara, and Mei used Hidden Mist to block it. No reason to assume it's sufficing here, when Mei is not around.

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KCM Naruto is faster than Ay who is in turn faster than 7 Gates Gai. KCM Naruto literally says, and fully aware of his speed, he can't catch or attack the paths with their Rinnegan shared vision. You're saying Gai is going to blitz Nagato, yet nothing by feats proves this.



5 hand signs is not always required for Summoning Jutsu, and there have been endless situations characters summoned something without hand seals; Nagato summoned Mazo by touching the ground. It's faster than Hirudora, that's all need to be said.



This is a fictional world; Shinobi on average can move at comparable speed to sound. The problem with this strategy is, if Gai resorts to Hirudora which he has only one chance of 1 or 2 shots before exhaustion, it wouldn't accomplish anything because Nagato will just re-summon his animals back again, since they are immortal especially the dogs who divide from any hit and multiply in power. Konoha's intelligence agency stated that Taijutsu doesn't work on Deva Path (Kakashi + Naruto), while fully aware of Gai's Taijutsu prowess. If Gai disagreed with it, he would have said something.



> Nagato is far more durable than Kisame, especially with his Asura armor. Asura Pain when utilizing 1/6 of Nagato's path power can tank Raiton Clone, Akimichi hand punch and Raikiri. Nagato 6x times more durable than Asura Pain. Kisame can be killed by a sword, whereas Asura Pain tanked Raikiri. Hirudora only incapacitated Kisame for a short period of time from point-blank underwater, where air pressure is stronger. It has no feats of putting a dent on Nagato, who is far more durable than Kisame; even if it actually put damage somehow, Nagato will heal it with Naraka Path.

> The BT Pain used on Kakashi was weak. When Nagato used it on Naruto, latter couldn't move. Nagato > Pain in power.

> Kishimoto outright portrays Ay as fastest Shinobi alive (before KCM Naruto), and he took in consideration of all characters alive at the time, which Gai happen to be. Portrayal doesn't happen like this, unless there is 100% certainty.



This doesn't make sense. The core can pull heavy mass like TBB, FRS and Yasaka Magatama. It can pull people. It can pull mountain range and deep earth's layer. I'm sure you know a kunai has mass, right? So it will be pulled to the core like everything else in its gravitational range alongside every kunai Minato threw at the battlefield. Minato will have nowhere to teleport and neither his teammates.

I haven't honestly mention:

-large-scale ST like Biju or mountain or village
-Gedo Mazo
-Soul dragon phantom
-Asra canon blast
-etc.

It's not smart to pin non-Rikudo characters against a Rikudo character. It's a stomp match.

Doesnt have to be "as fast", just faster than the summon he's targetting, and I haven't seen a summon from Nagato dodge a regular shinobi even once. Of course they will be read, as Sasuke read Lee taijutsu when they were kids. Problem is, a house-sized summon will not be able to dodge neither of the 3 from Team Speed, doesn't matter if they can see the attack coming. Your examples are with shinobis, which have some degree of speed, but not one summon (maybe Aoda?) is regarded for it's speed.

Both of the following topics (and you can add the Yata Mirror if you want) are answered the same: Plot devices. It would be incredibly boring if everytime someone did a ninjutsu in the manga, the author would have to draw all the hand-seals just to be coherent. The only explained situation when less seals for a ninjutsu are required is with Tobirama's Suiryudan, which only required 1 hand seal instead of 44. For the speed point, it's the same reason why Gai didn't aim to Madara's head with the Yagai, because if there is someone that's the best or the baddest, either Naruto or Sasuke must be the ones to surpass that. That's why, even when Ay intercepted KCM Naruto when he wasn't at full speed, somehow and for not apparent reason, KCM Naruto dodged him at full speed. So, by logic Ay >= KCM Naruto > full speed Ay?

The only Kage that surpass the speed of sound is Ay, the others are not even near of such speed feat, so what does it say about the average shinobi? The moment he's down summoning, he's leaving himself open to get killed. You're misreading that: the only reason Taijutsu may not work against Deva is because of ST repelling them, not because some innate ability (like Juubi Jin and regular ninjutsu) that protects him permanently. If Nagato has ST on cooldown, there is no reason why Gai or Ay wouldn't crush his skull in.

No he isn't, specially when he's decrepit. Even using a Chibaku Tensei Yahiko made him cough up blood, he's not surviving a full attack. How is it that the bodies use 1/6th power of the path? Does the Naraka path extract 1/6th of the soul? does the animal path summon 1/6th of an animal? granted that it may not be at full power (he even had to draw the Deva closer just to use Chibaku Tensei) but saying it can be six times more powerful is a bit too much. I see that the problem is you're thinking of red-haired Nagato and his feats/abilities, but we're discussing chair-stuck-with-rods Nagato here. Why do you say that Naruto couldn't move? BT doesn't paralyze your body, it just grabs you and pulls you to the caster. In a sense it's like a mini CT.

The author also portrays Madara as the strongest Uchiha, which we know he isn't, or saying that the Yata Mirror can repel anything while it only repeled exploding tags and a katana attack. You need to take into consideration the context and how it's said, and then actually make something happen to prove an assertion.

When he used it against Itachi and team they had time to despair, made a joke, calm down, analyze the situation, come up with a plan and execute the plan, and they where nowhere near the sphere yet. As I said twice, Minato can grab a kunai, move it with the chakra hand as far as possible from the core, teleport to it, and repeat that as many times as needed.

 

[KidGamer65]

Holy shit I didn't realize an updated Scenario was made, Team Speed takes both scenarios. @KidGamer How can you possibly try so hard to argue this and then there's an added fact that Gai as well didn't want to kill Kisame. War Arc feats completely demolishes what we saw previously, For example, you can't go ahead and say because we saw Lee taking like 5 pages or so to open the gates initially in Page 86, that means even though we see him open the Gates instantly in Page 237, Page 86 situation should still take place. That won't make sense, improved feat should slap away what we saw especially when Gai didn't try to kill the Gai "Hirudora is a punch faster than no other" Kisame couldn't finish reacting mentally to a kick from Asakujaku

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a technique that creates flames from punching so fast that it creates flames, yet AT a faster technique(albeit it requires a seal, but the actual technique)? This is ridiculous, not mention both Gai and Kisame made seals before they used their attacks. KidGamer, you want to tell me Kisame literally matched his hand movements? Physically? When a single twitch was met with this

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Borderline ridiculous. Also:

I'm not here to watch you make a bunch of ridiculous excuses to try and rationalize your points nor am I here to watch you address things nobody ever once claimed or even implied. I stated they used their jutsu at the same time. No shit Gai is far faster than Kisame. :lol There is no contradiction here nor did I state that Kisame can match Gai's speed. So everything that is striked out is irrelevant.

As for the bold, yes, new feats>old feats when talking about characters as characters grow stronger as time passes. However that's only if there is a displayed increase. Where has Hirudora shown to get faster from the Kisame fight to the Madara fight(s)? Nowhere, that's where. :lol That's you making more excuses because you want to admit you are wrong about this topic. His first usage of it, Kisame reacted to it. His second usage was just an interception so all we know is that it moves faster than Madara's Susanoo blade can strike Naruto from mid range. It's third usage it was formed right in and around Madara's body, so it didn't travel meaning there is no speed feat there either, something you failed to address in this post and the last post.

This isn't a merged Kisame. He transforms the surrounding earth into fluid in order for him to move faster as that's clearly the case with this Jutsu. What you're telling me now is Kisame can't be faster underwater? Merging with Samehada only grants him the ability to heal, absorb and sense chakra. Probably breathe as well. Also, GSB is formed from the very water it's in, created from the water it's in and matter of fact Water Style Ninjutsu generally needs a water source in order to be used unless you're insanely skilled

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-- But you're suggesting it would not be faster in water? Okay scratch that, let's talk about the qualities of Shark Bullet, the shark like qualities it has exhibited showing to us, DB4:

What are you even on about? It's blatantly shown that Kisame only gets faster underwater when he's merged with Samehada. Subterranean Voyage lets him travel (key word here bud. travel, not move) faster than he can on foot by swimming. All that means is that he swims faster than he runs, not that his general movements are superior underwater.

:lol And hold up a minute, please tell me where it was stated Subterranean Voyage lets him move faster than he can move on land in general. I'll wait.

(P.S. "High speed"=/="Faster")

First of all it has fangs to shred the opponent's jutsu, second of all, the weaker variant "Shark bullet" was used by Kisame to swim at high speed in water to evade these guys after just using it to attack

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-- There's no reason why a non water jutsu would be able to move as fast or faster than it in water. It clearly takes form of a shark with extra qualities. Even Kisame says it in these scan, the shark isn't growing any bigger

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, clearly it's faster than the normal jutsu in it's terrain but this is irrelevant before someone who didn't want to kill him but take him back for intel.

The only thing here you have a point on is the fact that the regular shark bullet can swim.

-Speed is irrelevant to Gai's intent to kill. The tech traveling faster wouldn't make it more powerful. Why is this the go to excuse when talking about Hirudora? Christ.

-Fangs are irrelevant to speed.

-Bold is piss poor logic but there's no need to get into that.

Also, it's pathetic you're saying this:

Madara was dicking around with Gai, backstepping his punches and kicks instead of creating distance with Shunshin or flight, meaning he was not trying his hardest to evade.

This right here is where we should draw the line, where it's not worth it to continue debating, so he was dicking around when it came to Gai but not Minato.. He was dicking around because well, you feel like chucking it up to something, obviously. He was dicking around hence Kishi thought to use the exclamation mark, hence Gaara speaking about his inhumane movement. Makes sense oh, Hirudora is a Mid Range technique. I don't have to worry since that's where Nagato isn't reacting to with Shinra Tensei, since that's only where it can be used from, the Mid Range.

I mean KG it's crazy to see you arguing all these points, these are points you've joined us to argue in favor of especially with the Minato fans, in numerous threads with us Gai fans and other intellectual debaters because it's only common sense and Manga facts. Imagine how you felt against KingHashirama arguing these exact points I'm arguing now, not one left check it out in the bold:


:lol

If you want to continue this debate you're gonna have to stop bullshitting with me and start using your brain before getting your panties in a bunch. Where did I say that Gai's feat was invalid while Madara's against Minato's was not? Where did I say Madara was taking Minato any more or any less seriously than Gai? Nothing you are even saying in this portion of your post makes a lick of sense. Stop trying to refute shit nobody claimed. If you want to argue against phantom points you can do that on your own.

-Gaara talking about Gai's movement has nothing to do with Madara taking Gai seriously. That has purely to do with Gai's movements.

-Madara being surprised doesn't mean that he was taking Gai 100% seriously.

If you want to argue something as insanely stupid as 7th Gate Gai being too fast for Madara to evade when he can react to the 8th Gate well enough to block and when someone with less sage power than him can blitz KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke be my guest, just do it elsewhere. Those points I argued are points stating that Madara can't just cut Gai down like he did Minato, meaning Gai>Minato in reaction speed.

I'm arguing that Madara could've easily evaded by breaking away from that skirmish altogether using Shunshin. That's a fact unless your next post is going to try to tell me how 7th Gate Gai is faster than JJ Madara. :lol

I also have no idea why you bolded the Hirudora talk. I stated Ay can't avoid a point blank Hirudora, but he can at mid range and beyond . Show me where that contradicts anything I stated here about Nagato reacting with Shinra Tensei. I'll wait.

Underlined is also more nonsense.. Did you hit your head? Are you low on sleep? I suggest you go to bed and come back and address this post cause you clearly have no idea what you are talking about right now. Hirudora has canonically been used from close, mid and long ranges. So no, it's not just a mid range tech nor can it only be used from mid range. Then we have the fact that Hirudora doesn't have the speed feats to blitz Nagato from anywhere but close range. What happened with Madara is not a speed feat for Hirudora as it was used right in his face. Hirudora did not travel thus there is no speed thus there is no speed feat. Get that through your head.

I also gotta laugh at the fact that you decided to come here and ramble about arguments that are unrelated to this one instead of actually addressing the argument that's right in front of you and actually relevant to the topic at hand. I bet you really thought that you had one here huh?

Uh, no. Ay doesn't have the speed feats to evade a Hirudora released at point blank range. Not when Madara had to cut through it instead of just loldodging it like he did the rest of Gai's attacks.

I conceded this particular point on the same thread you pulled that quote from btw, but of course I don't see that in your post. :lol If you wanna play this game with me do me a favor and paint the whole picture and not just the parts you want to see painted.

There is no contradiction here. Just you not being able to read, or you trying to turn my own word against me because your words aren't strong enough of an argument. I must say, I expected this kind of pathetic, dismissive and dodgy behavior from a lot of posters here but not you. :lol

 

[KidGamer65]

@Kidgamer




You realize how ridiculous this sounds right
What you are asserting is that just because white rage is made of liquid or light it is immune to physical attacks which is something that was never shown to be true. Liquid or light can be dispersed. Bijuu Dama is a physical attack, does that mean it cannot destroy white rage? That being said, you never even offered proof that the White Rage dragon/orb is liquid or light. It could very well just be made of chakra the same way Susanoo or Kyubi avatar is made of chakra (not saying it for sure is, but it could be.)

The white rage orb and dragon have no durability feats so there's no reason it can't be destroyed with:

-a weighted punch
-rasengan
-hirudora
-Asakujaku
-food cart destroyer

I skimmed your posts with Haizaki and your strategy mostly seems to revolve around Kabuto using WR to paralyze the opponents first. So if Team Speed never lets the jutsu take effect, how do they win?

Lmao. I wonder if you read what you posted before you actually posted it, because if you did you'd realize that the only one who sounds ridiculous here is you.

1.

Sage Art: White Rage Attack, the caster gathers natural energy in their body as light, and then expels it from their mouth in the shape of a dragon.

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It is nature energy turned to light and then turned into the shape of a dragon.

2. Are you joking? Are you really going to argue that Ay can punch actual light? The ****? Light cannot be dispersed with physical attacks. Light is intangible. Why in the world do I even have to type this out? It's basic scientific fact. Light is intangible. Cannot be touched. So we can forget about anything you listed above doing anything to White Rage. Even previous arguments used by me and others of Amaterasu and such destroying White Rage are invalid if the jutsu is light.

Jesus. Physical attacks dispersing light. That's a good one. :lol The only way anything you are saying would make sense is if this were a jutsu formed for offense or defense like Madara's Storm Release, but of course you can't even support that claim so there's no reason to go there.

You should read those posts then, because they list more ending strategies and techniques that don't involve White Rage at all. Not to mention I already addressed the entirety of any scenario where they try to intercept White Rage just in case the jutsu is light, and their attacks either get blocked or they don't reach in time due to the distance, and I could go on.


And no, Bijuu Dama is not a physical attack. Bijuu Dama is an energy based attack. Very clear difference between the two.

 

[Haizaki]

There is no contradiction here. Just you not being able to read, or you trying to turn my own word against me because your words aren't strong enough of an argument. I must say, I expected this kind of pathetic, dismissive and dodgy behavior from a lot of posters here but not you.

Lmao no it's not dodgy :lol, we've gone through this several times with other debaters in multiple debates and deep down you know this shit is true. How you just gonna flip the whole thing just like that man? Exactly against every single thing. Like it's crazy to me, it's more like you're arguing because you want to create an argument when the shit is very clearlol deadass serious it is), I had to pull that post for you to see how you sound because you're clearly going against reasonable logic, established arguments we went through bit by bit which was undoubtedly true by a lot of reasonable debaters. I mean this shit is clear as day, Bogard gonna be looking at you sideways once he sees this, probably a lot of guys who all engaged in that entire 2014-2016 debate regarding these feats will...Like KidGamer? Dicking around? Lmao that was horrible. Also, look at what you conceded to in that thread and see if it rhymes with what you're saying here and even see if the guy's assumption ALONE makes sense. Pathetic if you ask me how you're going on and on with this, it's a joke. Oh KG, I forgot Madara was dicking around so hard, remember soon as he was pushed back by the explosion before he could even balance properly, he opted to end Gai's life with a TSB, you know what you're saying makes so much sense Lmao FOH.

 

[Beans2]

Lmao. I wonder if you read what you posted before you actually posted it, because if you did you'd realize that the only one who sounds ridiculous here is you.

1. Sage Art: White Rage Attack, the caster gathers natural energy in their body as light, and then expels it from their mouth in the shape of a dragon.

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It is nature energy turned to light and then turned into the shape of a dragon.

Never denied it was light, only asked for proof that it was. (seems like you didn't know that either because you originally replied saying it was EITHER liquid OR light )

2. Are you joking? Are you really going to argue that Ay can punch actual light? The ****? Light cannot be dispersed with physical attacks. Light is intangible. Why in the world do I even have to type this out? It's basic scientific fact. Light is intangible. Cannot be touched. So we can forget about anything you listed above doing anything to White Rage. Even previous arguments used by me and others of Amaterasu and such destroying White Rage are invalid if the jutsu is light.

Maybe not in the real world but in the Naruto world it clearly does. Let's look over the DB translation again and think hard for a second on what white rage actually is.

Sage Art: White Rage Attack, the caster gathers natural energy in their body as light, and then expels it from their mouth in the shape of a dragon.

Key word: shape. What instances in the real world, does light ever take form as a shape? Light can be emanated from a source like the sun or a lightbulb, but light itself never takes a particular form or shape, only travels as a wave. That being said, if light takes a shape does that not inherently mean the shape can be altered or dare I say it, dispersed? Maybe not Ay's punches. But Rasengan and Hirudora, sure, don't see why not. While we're on this subject let's point out that the orb which the dragon carries is clearly

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which begs the question, what is stopping the orb itself from being destroyed? DB never said the orb is made from light, only the dragon so there is no proof of the orb being immune to physical attacks.

Jesus. Physical attacks dispersing light. That's a good one. :lol The only way anything you are saying would make sense is if this were a jutsu formed for offense or defense like Madara's Storm Release, but of course you can't even support that claim so there's no reason to go there.

don't know what you're talking about with the Madara bit.

You should read those posts then, because they list more ending strategies and techniques that don't involve White Rage at all. Not to mention I already addressed the entirety of any scenario where they try to intercept White Rage just in case the jutsu is light, and their attacks either get blocked or they don't reach in time due to the distance, and I could go on.

Distance? 50m to lightened Ay is nothing. Ay could blitz the dragon and none would be able to react. Add to the fact that Minato can teleport between teammates, I see a scenario like this going down

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either he takes it to an outside marker or places it in the mouth of a toad where it can't affect anyone plus this is an outdoor location in daylight where WR's effect won't be as strong anyway.

And no, Bijuu Dama is not a physical attack. Bijuu Dama is an energy based attack. Very clear difference between the two.

Please explain exactly what is the difference between an energy based attack and a physical one. Also, how can you claim that Bijuu Dama is an energy attack and Rasengan is not when they are the exact same thing in terms of shape and chakra form manipulation?

1.

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2.

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3.

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[Tyrance sasuke]

The author also portrays Madara as the strongest Uchiha, which we know he isn't, or saying that the Yata Mirror can repel anything while it only repeled exploding tags and a katana attack. You need to take into consideration the context and how it's said, and then actually make something happen to prove an assertion.

What's with this logic? Did sasuke throw a bijuudama at yata mirror for it to repel? 'It just blocked some kunai' what a pathetic argument. This is 2017 , still such nonsense arguments still exist?smh. Should itachi go in search of projectiles to repel in order to show you yata can do that? Why do you think it wasnt used in kabuto fight? Yet sasuke could use his arrow in that fight? Because its an absolute which cannot be bypassed. It will just change it's form since it lacks physical form and repel every shitty chou bijuudama naruto throws at him or any other attack, your denial shows itself, must be an itachi hater. Though in debates , it's manga facts, so go by it. Madara was never shown as the strongest uchiha or even stated to be such , only portrayal illusion. Yata will repel every attack from all directions because it is a magical weapon without a physical form which makes it a perfect defense with no flaws or no rival according to the databook and manga. Though i wouldnt consider including yata and totsuka in this fight , since itachi would assrape even his team members combined with it.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

And no, Bijuu Dama is not a physical attack. Bijuu Dama is an energy based attack. Very clear difference between the two.

Bijuudama is a physical attack. It is dense chakra which cannot be possibly controlled according to thay kumo ninja who was beside naruto during raikage fight. Density makes it more physical than energy.

 

[Edogawa]

Doesnt have to be "as fast", just faster than the summon he's targetting, and I haven't seen a summon from Nagato dodge a regular shinobi even once. Of course they will be read, as Sasuke read Lee taijutsu when they were kids. Problem is, a house-sized summon will not be able to dodge neither of the 3 from Team Speed, doesn't matter if they can see the attack coming. Your examples are with shinobis, which have some degree of speed, but not one summon (maybe Aoda?) is regarded for it's speed.

Uh...The only summon Nagato needs for this matchup is the Rinnegan Chameleon, which goes invisible and cannot be sensed by any means. You're saying Team Speed is going to hit the summon, but how are they doing it when they can't see it or sense?

Both of the following topics (and you can add the Yata Mirror if you want) are answered the same: Plot devices. It would be incredibly boring if everytime someone did a ninjutsu in the manga, the author would have to draw all the hand-seals just to be coherent. The only explained situation when less seals for a ninjutsu are required is with Tobirama's Suiryudan, which only required 1 hand seal instead of 44. For the speed point, it's the same reason why Gai didn't aim to Madara's head with the Yagai, because if there is someone that's the best or the baddest, either Naruto or Sasuke must be the ones to surpass that. That's why, even when Ay intercepted KCM Naruto when he wasn't at full speed, somehow and for not apparent reason, KCM Naruto dodged him at full speed. So, by logic Ay >= KCM Naruto > full speed Ay?

:lol nope. Character using 1 hand seal or no hand seal for a Jutsu means he's extremely skilled that he doesn't need to perform all hand seals. It's got nothing to do with plot. Gai couldn't aim at Madara's head because latter intercepted him before he could charge his Jutsu. You're just pulling excuses to justify your nonsense. Ay outright says he's going at full speed and power, and Naruto dodges him meaning Naruto is faster. Stop it.

Spoiler

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The only Kage that surpass the speed of sound is Ay, the others are not even near of such speed feat, so what does it say about the average shinobi? The moment he's down summoning, he's leaving himself open to get killed. You're misreading that: the only reason Taijutsu may not work against Deva is because of ST repelling them, not because some innate ability (like Juubi Jin and regular ninjutsu) that protects him permanently. If Nagato has ST on cooldown, there is no reason why Gai or Ay wouldn't crush his skull in.

This is the 5th time you ignored that Nagato will be fighting on air with Deva flight, and that neither Gai or Ay are fast on air. If you're going to mention this and ignore my point, I'll just take it as a concession. And no, the cooldown is only 5 seconds, it's not like 5 minutes or anything. 5 seconds passes so quickly if you don't know this. 1 simple vertical ST curb-stomps Gai or Ay.

No he isn't, specially when he's decrepit. Even using a Chibaku Tensei Yahiko made him cough up blood, he's not surviving a full attack. How is it that the bodies use 1/6th power of the path? Does the Naraka path extract 1/6th of the soul? does the animal path summon 1/6th of an animal? granted that it may not be at full power (he even had to draw the Deva closer just to use Chibaku Tensei) but saying it can be six times more powerful is a bit too much. I see that the problem is you're thinking of red-haired Nagato and his feats/abilities, but we're discussing chair-stuck-with-rods Nagato here. Why do you say that Naruto couldn't move? BT doesn't paralyze your body, it just grabs you and pulls you to the caster. In a sense it's like a mini CT.

> I don't know why you're correlating durability with exhaustion. Durability is withstanding attacks, exhaustion is something completely different. Nagato coughed up blood because he created a mini-planet while having used most of his Chakra prior. It's got nothing to do with durability.

> It's common sense. There 6 dead bodies; to move them and perform techniques, Nagato distributes 1/6 of his Chakra to each body body, so obviously the potency of each Jutsu is 6x times weaker. If Nagato is performing the paths himself, he's focusing his Chakra to himself instead of distributing, so it's logical that the potency of the techniques when preforming it himself is 6x times faster and stronger. Only exception to this case is when Deva Path is going to change the landscape. Therefore, every durability Asura Path Pain showed, it's 6x times better with Nagato himself. Also, op is talking about this Nagato:

Spoiler

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> It obviously paralyzes the target's body, otherwise Naruto with his speed could have resisted the attractive force, but resorted to Chakra Arm instead. Even if you are right, I don't see what's stopping Nagato from dropping a meteorite on of Team Speed with BT combo. Only one is surviving is Minato, no one else. You're seriously underrating Nagato's deadly combo.

The author also portrays Madara as the strongest Uchiha, which we know he isn't, or saying that the Yata Mirror can repel anything while it only repeled exploding tags and a katana attack. You need to take into consideration the context and how it's said, and then actually make something happen to prove an assertion.

Except this isn't just hype. ST has backed every of its hype with feats. It disintegrated Raiton and FRS Ninjutsu, and deflected every physical attack it came in contact with it. If you're going to make a case it's not repelling Hirudora, you need to show us Hirudora's feats and we all know it's not impressive, when it couldn't kill Kisame at point-blank underwater. It has no feats overpowering ST's repulsive force at all.

When he used it against Itachi and team they had time to despair, made a joke, calm down, analyze the situation, come up with a plan and execute the plan, and they where nowhere near the sphere yet. As I said twice, Minato can grab a kunai, move it with the chakra hand as far as possible from the core, teleport to it, and repeat that as many times as needed.

For the last time. The core will pull anything with mass. Kunai has a mass and it will be pulled, regardless of whatever Minato is going to do. This is becoming a repetitive.

 

[KidGamer65]

Here are the facts

-Hirudora has zero speed feat that lets it blitz Nagato.
-JJ Madara could’ve easily evaded ALL of 7th Gate Gais attacks if he was taking him seriously. I don’t know what kind of idiocy you argued in that thread but the one and only thing I ever agreed on was Ay not dodging Hirudora against Gai.

But tell us more how your favorite character in the 7th Gate is so strong that Madara was actually taking him seriously. Tell us more about how 7th Gate Gai is faster than. Juubi Jinchuuriki. Tell us more about how a JJ using nothing but basic gudo dama is them being serious.

Madara trying to kill him doesn’t mean he wasn’t playing with him until the 8th Gate.