Team Speed vs Team Zombie

[BenjerminGaye]

When did Madara fail to track these clowns? Lol Sasuke tracked juubito who's much faster than Ei.

when Ay blitzed his ass. Now r u gonna say Ms Itachi has the same tracking ability as Late Ems sasuke? How about edo nagato? or Dsm kabuto?-_-

Youre not.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Team zombie ****ing wrecks this shit.

Chikabu Tensei + Manda + Yata Mirror. Wtf can Team Shit do? They better run as fast as they can.

Manda is garbage and yata is restricted. -_- read the damn op.

 

[KidGamer65]

How?



It should be possible...just doesn’t seem realistic. Anyway how do they keep minato at bay



-Hirudora
-Asakujaku
-Rasengan
-Ay’s punches

There’s no reason why physical attacks wouldn’t work

My post answers "how?", so just read that.

But we have instances of Susanoo being automatically moved with the user and we have the fact that they are connected. I know people have used the Gaara argument but even that is flawed. Gaara's sand can separate a limb from a body yet Hiraishin cannot and more examples along that line illustrate the flaw in that comparison.

Shinra Tensei and White Rage. Minato can't physically move during the latter.

White Rage is either liquid or light. Physical attacks aren't going to work.

Scenario 1: Team Speed would take this, the only issue is sealing them but they'll win this. Logically speaking, Kabuto couldn't (or at least couldn't finish) react/(reacting) to a lightened Ay mentally as soon as he was approached here in the bottom left(

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)matter of fact none of these guys would be able to when EMS Madara, a sensor was already showing signs of failing to follow them here as well in both the top left and bottom left of this scan

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. Then you have 7G Gai who's faster than his comrades here based on his feats again JJ Madara, add KCM Minato with his Kage clones( Have in mind Naruto's own was capable to keeping up with the Third Raikage in terms of speed). That's insane for the other team, if Gai approaches anyone here from the get-go, then it becomes one down two to go instantly

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--It could even be the same case with a Lightened Ay. It's death, the team could pull so much with such speed.

Nobody on this team is even close to Lightened Ay's speed, especially Gai. Let's clear that up right away. His feats against JJ Madara speak more about his reflexes and Taijutsu skill as he was punching and kicking. In movement speed regular Ay and KCM Naruto, who should be inferior to KCM Minato, have better feats and hype. If KCM Minato is above KCM Naruto then he's also above Gai in raw movement speed as well, but not to the degree Ay is in. Anyway they don't need to be able to keep up with Ay since they can't break through Susanoo nor is anyone blitzing anyone from a 50 meter starting distance. So we can scratch Gai approaching anyone being a definite KO for someone on Team Zombie.

- Visual Genjutsu and Sound Genjutsu is practically useless against team 1. You have Gai who has his own counters to Genjutsu already through the Gates inflicting continuous pain and his ability to combat the Sharingan. You have Minato who has Kage level clones, who can sense the build up and it has been shown in the Manga that Genjutsu tends to have 0 effects on clones and doesn't prevent them from being active in the real world (middle scan)

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. This also makes sound genjutsu useless since they all fall under the same category except for the method(Vision and Sound) in which it is passed. Then you have a lightened Ay who has insane speed and held his own against MS Sasuke, plus the fact that he has Onoki who can always break the Genjutsu via adjusting his weight which is an interruption, technically. Either way there are counters -- Kimmimaro's attacks, those bones are getting past who? Maybe Gai alone but the bones don't have so much when it comes to feats. Ay isn't getting killed from that when he can be lightened but his body as well is pretty durable, Same with KCM Minato but then he can always summon Gamabunta whose sword would do the dirty work in a similar manner

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stopping it, even with Minato's teleportation and ability to tag his teammates, it's helps a lot in terms of evading techniques, E.g A lightened Ay can take flight to evade the bones, Minato can teleport both himself and Gai to his position evading it. Matter of fact Naruto could end this with an FRS, Kidomaru? Neji at a young was evading his webs in the middle

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let alone these guys here. No one is getting hit by Amaterasu for obvious reasons.

Agreed about Visual Genjutsu, but Sound Genjutsu is wrong. Itachi said that Genjutsu didn't work on Kakashi because he hit his clone. We can literally see the Genjutsu affect the clone so saying it doesn't affect clones at all for whatever reason doesn't make any sense. Onoki can't do anything but adjust weight and that doesn't break Genjutsu unless you are gonna tell me where it interrupts the chakra flow.

Agreed with the rest.

- Kabuto's attacks are made useless here, with intel especially. Attacks like white rage can be prevented via destroying the orb before the actual effect takes place. Then you consider the fact that Kabuto has to liquefy his inside during this is enough to prove that he can be affected if he doesn't do such, meaning his teammates would be affected by this so using it in the first place isn't that much of a good choice. The location isn't exactly favorable for Muki Tensei and it's a short range technique, in a short range I don't think the opponents would be sitting around waiting to be hit and giving him the opening to do so but then at the same time, Minato has chakra arms to protect his opponent similar to what Itachi did to Sasuke, in case you doubt how large chakra arms could get, there you go

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. Plus with the the Raikage's durability, I don't see him getting stabbed necessarily, same with Minato especially when people in the past have given good reasons as to why Edo bodies seems to be less durable than original bodies. Nagato hasn't shown much that suggest he'll be blowing the speedsters with Shinra Tensei via a reaction. Even with Kage level clones to exploit the 5 second interval

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, he's a dead man. When Nagato used BT on Kakashi, he was still capable of pulling out his chain physically

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, I don't know why that won't stop Gai from using a hand sign for Hirudora which is incredibly fast and with the force of BT, even faster when it's aimed at Nagato. Then realistically if he pulls anyone, he can always be intercepted by a clone stopping the Jutsu. CT gets destroyed by Hirudora, intel enables then destroy the Orb before it gets stronger. CST is a bad idea for so many reasons I can't begin to name. Are mini Katsuya's more durable than KCM Minato and Ay? Are the chakra arms capable of protecting them against an attack that leaves Nagato useless for most likely the whole fight due to not doing anything? He had to summon his own bodies out the village

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is that a smart move to use around his teammates?

Now this is all wrong. First of all White Rage isn't physical, so no physical attack is going to destroy the orb. Second of all a follow up Muki Tensei uses the ground to create a barrier for whatever offense they can mount in that time. Whether or not it hurts his teammates is an irrelevant point to bring up, especially since Itachi canonically withstood it well enough to use Susanoo due to his Edo body, and him and Nagato are both Edo zombies here.

No, Hirudora doesn't destroy CT or even come close to doing so. Gai's jutsu still has to reach the orb. Itachi had a plan to counter yet they still needed Bijuu Dama level firepower to take out the construct. The CST thing also makes zero sense. The only reason mini Katsuyu was able to protect them from that level of damage is because it was spread out across the village as an omni directional force. If Nagato fires it in one direction like he does his regular Shinra Tensei the area of effect drops thus the lethality of the blow increases. That obviously means the teammates getting hit thing makes no sense as well.

A Shinra Tensei that didn't have it's energy sent all over the village had enough power to put down the Gama Trio let alone what a CST will do to these 3.

- Itachi's Susano'o gets destroyed. A single Hirudora destroyed Madara's V3 Susano'o at Gai's limit, considering Gai showed feats, incredible feats in the War Arc and Juubi Arc enabling one to believe he can use this muliplte times(Hirudora, coming from a weakened state as seen with Ten Ten and Lee- Multiple EE- Night Gai, then we have early feats before and when he battled Madara and Obito in the gates) and I can't see Itachi's Susano'o withstanding every single AT thrown at it. Even a single punch of a weighted Ay's at close range put a hole in Madara's V3 which is already above Itachi's V3. Then you imagine multiple of that at the same spot considering we have the fact that Sasuke's already weakened Ribcage could further be damaged by Ay's chop. Point being a weakened Susano'o is more vulnerable to stronger attacks. Then you have AT's plus multiple Rasengan from multiple clones in his KCM state. Susano'o gets destroyed eventually with these three combines attacks, it's only use in this battle is for defense because it's never touching anyone here ever. The ability to redirect techniques thrown at them back once he tags Susano'o from the get-go, making any offensive attack thrown at him back at it.

A v4 Susanoo from Itachi>>A v3 from Madara. Idk why you and others use the bold as some kind of stamina argument for Gai but it clearly doesn't work like that. Gai gets rejuvenated when he opens the gates. 8G Gai was not a weakened Gai. That was Gai using energy for fuel that is far beyond anything he has ever used in the Manga. Same goes for when he enters the 7th Gate, which is why despite being near death's door his Hirudora was the same level of power. The only thing his previous condition affects when he enters Gates is how long the gates last.

So no, Gai has shown nothing that leads to him using Hirudora any more than 3 times when he's in the 7th Gate, and Shinra Tensei already easily repels one of those.

And Ay never put a hole in any V3 Susanoo. That was V2, the skeletal variant. Ay can't land multiple blows before he gets repelled or before Kabuto's team takes the action necessary to end them. And in Scenario 2 Yata repels all of these attacks as they are not even strong enough to damage V4 on it's own, meaning Susanoo is never broken open.

Once Susanoo goes up, either White Rage is activated and Team Speed is immobilized and killed, Kabuto's Genjutsu gives Team Zombie and opening to kill off Team Speed, or CST turns them all to paste.

That and I haven't even talked about Gedo Mazo, which is beyond overkill.

 

[KidGamer65]

And S2 doesn't matter. A Kyuubi cloak doesn't let them breach Susanoo nor does it let them survive:

-Chibaku Tensei.
-Sound Genjutsu+Chibaku Tensei.
-Chou Shinra Tensei.
-White Rage + Finishing attack.
-Gedo Mazo

 

[MightGai]

Itachi trumped that because he has Sharingan, worked for Nagato long time and unrivalled Shuriken Jutsu none of which Team Speed has, so they aren't doing anything to shared vision. As for your question; he can summon King of Hell and chameleon, which both are invisible and cannot be sensed by any means, and Nagato proceeds to create 2 extra faces via Asura Path giving him 5 better field of vision than normal, and amplified with his remarkable sensing shit on any speed attempt. I mean, KCM Naruto whose faster than Team 7 bar FTG couldn't blitz Rinnegan shared vision, so how are slower people accomplishing anything.



Like it took down Kisame, right? Lol. If Gai decides to use Hirudora which he only has one shot before exhausting himself, then Shinra Tensei repels it or he summons panda shield for it. Summoning Jutsu and Shinra Tensei are instant so it moves faster than Hirudora.



Bansho Tenin is fast enough to pull KCM Naruto who is faster than Team Speed on foot, and latter couldn't resist its pulling force resorting to use Chakra Arm instead. Only one is Minato who can escape it, the rest can't. Bansho Tenin and Human Path combo end the rest, with Minato surviving and later stomped.



Other way around, mate. Minato is limited to the area he can mark; without prep time, he can only mark

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range and with prep time he can mark an area a few meter wider than the Jubi, who is mountained sized. OP never clarified on Minato's prep time, and by feats he hasn't shown to mark an area greater than CT's range. Chibaku Tensei from an emaciated and Chakra & life-force deprived Nagato was shown absorb mountain range area, greater than anything Minato marked in the manga.

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Every kunai Minato threw around the battlefield is pulled, so where is teleporting to? Nowhere. If you say he's teleporting outside the matchup's location, then he loses by default.

No, they have something better: Speed, since that shared vision thingy didn't work so well for the Naraka path when Naruto (with a simple trick) killed him with a couple of rasengans. Couple that with the speed of any of the three characters and that's it for Nagato (and again, we're talking about the shared vision of summons, which are nowhere near in speed with shinobis, unless you're telling me that Nagato summons are at least as fast as the other team). Both of those summons were destroyed by Itachi with simple kunais (plus the Naraka Summon is immobile), Hirudora would wipe the field with them.

Right. One shot? In the war he at least fired two times at Madara, I don't recall him having some resting time in between. Neither jutsu is instant, in the summoning jutsu you need the hand seals (as it has been seen pretty much every time it was used, even with rinnegan) and both Shinra Tensei or Bansho Tennin you need to use the hands to direct what you're going to push or pull (again, as it has been shown time after time). The only thing I recall being truly instant is FTG, which doens't use hand seals to perform. The panda shield at the very best will shield Nagato, not the summon he's using to move, so the shockwave would kill that, and same would be for Shinra Tensei.

When did Bansho Tennin pulled a KCM moving Naruto? Seeing that you are mentioning the chakra hands I'm guessing you either refer to the Pain + Itachi vs Naruto + Bee fight (in which case Naruto was standing still and Nagato moved his hand to pull him, again showing that it's not instant) or the fight with Sasuke at the valley of the end (in which case he wasn't in KCM). And BTW, I'm trying to think a speed feat of KCM Naruto to say that he's faster that either a lightened Ay or a 7th Gated Gai (which both do have speed feats acknowledged by their opponents), so why are you saying KCM Naruto is faster than them? (regular on-foot speed wise). Just wondering, cause since Naruto first transformed to deflect the bijuudamas I don't recall anyone being surprised by his speed.

Limited by area or people he can mark. If he marks anyone from Team Zombie, CT is useless. And he doesn't even have to do that: CT doesn't restrict movement, even less chakra hands. So he just needs to touch the other 2, grab a Kunai with a chakra hand, throw / move it as far as possible from the CT core, teleport to the kunai. Rinse and repeat as needed until sphere is complete.

 

[Edogawa]

So many things wrong. I'll reply later.

 

[MightGai]

So many things wrong. I'll reply later.

Take your time

 

[Zexion~]

My post answers "how?", so just read that.

But we have instances of Susanoo being automatically moved with the user and we have the fact that they are connected. I know people have used the Gaara argument but even that is flawed. Gaara's sand can separate a limb from a body yet Hiraishin cannot and more examples along that line illustrate the flaw in that comparison.

Shinra Tensei and White Rage. Minato can't physically move during the latter.

White Rage is either liquid or light. Physical attacks aren't going to work.



Nobody on this team is even close to Lightened Ay's speed, especially Gai. Let's clear that up right away. His feats against JJ Madara speak more about his reflexes and Taijutsu skill as he was punching and kicking. In movement speed regular Ay and KCM Naruto, who should be inferior to KCM Minato, have better feats and hype. If KCM Minato is above KCM Naruto then he's also above Gai in raw movement speed as well, but not to the degree Ay is in. Anyway they don't need to be able to keep up with Ay since they can't break through Susanoo nor is anyone blitzing anyone from a 50 meter starting distance. So we can scratch Gai approaching anyone being a definite KO for someone on Team Zombie.




Agreed about Visual Genjutsu, but Sound Genjutsu is wrong. Itachi said that Genjutsu didn't work on Kakashi because he hit his clone. We can literally see the Genjutsu affect the clone so saying it doesn't affect clones at all for whatever reason doesn't make any sense. Onoki can't do anything but adjust weight and that doesn't break Genjutsu unless you are gonna tell me where it interrupts the chakra flow.

Agreed with the rest.






Now this is all wrong. First of all White Rage isn't physical, so no physical attack is going to destroy the orb. Second of all a follow up Muki Tensei uses the ground to create a barrier for whatever offense they can mount in that time. Whether or not it hurts his teammates is an irrelevant point to bring up, especially since Itachi canonically withstood it well enough to use Susanoo due to his Edo body, and him and Nagato are both Edo zombies here.

No, Hirudora doesn't destroy CT or even come close to doing so. Gai's jutsu still has to reach the orb. Itachi had a plan to counter yet they still needed Bijuu Dama level firepower to take out the construct. The CST thing also makes zero sense. The only reason mini Katsuyu was able to protect them from that level of damage is because it was spread out across the village as an omni directional force. If Nagato fires it in one direction like he does his regular Shinra Tensei the area of effect drops thus the lethality of the blow increases. That obviously means the teammates getting hit thing makes no sense as well.

A Shinra Tensei that didn't have it's energy sent all over the village had enough power to put down the Gama Trio let alone what a CST will do to these 3.



A v4 Susanoo from Itachi>>A v3 from Madara. Idk why you and others use the bold as some kind of stamina argument for Gai but it clearly doesn't work like that. Gai gets rejuvenated when he opens the gates. 8G Gai was not a weakened Gai. That was Gai using energy for fuel that is far beyond anything he has ever used in the Manga. Same goes for when he enters the 7th Gate, which is why despite being near death's door his Hirudora was the same level of power. The only thing his previous condition affects when he enters Gates is how long the gates last.

So no, Gai has shown nothing that leads to him using Hirudora any more than 3 times when he's in the 7th Gate, and Shinra Tensei already easily repels one of those.

And Ay never put a hole in any V3 Susanoo. That was V2, the skeletal variant. Ay can't land multiple blows before he gets repelled or before Kabuto's team takes the action necessary to end them. And in Scenario 2 Yata repels all of these attacks as they are not even strong enough to damage V4 on it's own, meaning Susanoo is never broken open.

Once Susanoo goes up, either White Rage is activated and Team Speed is immobilized and killed, Kabuto's Genjutsu gives Team Zombie and opening to kill off Team Speed, or CST turns them all to paste.

That and I haven't even talked about Gedo Mazo, which is beyond overkill.

Minato can't use FT when Immobilized?

 

[Haizaki]

Nobody on this team is even close to Lightened Ay's speed, especially Gai. Let's clear that up right away. His feats against JJ Madara speak more about his reflexes and Taijutsu skill as he was punching and kicking. In movement speed regular Ay and KCM Naruto, who should be inferior to KCM Minato, have better feats and hype. If KCM Minato is above KCM Naruto then he's also above Gai in raw movement speed as well, but not to the degree Ay is in. Anyway they don't need to be able to keep up with Ay since they can't break through Susanoo nor is anyone blitzing anyone from a 50 meter starting distance. So we can scratch Gai approaching anyone being a definite KO for someone on Team Zombie.

Nope. Gai's movement speed is indeed shown there, I've argued this in the past several times, just make sure your read everything in detail:

How is it ridiculous for a Jin? It's not, Gaara saying Gai's movement wasn't human was based on what he saw. Which was Gai keeping up with someone of that level. Using it's obviously his Taijutsu isn't a point when his Taijutsu wasn't singlehandedly pointed out.

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That's Lee moving towards Gaara and not attacking...Yet his movements was said to be not human by a young Gaara. " I can't protect myself" was because Lee was too fast as Gai made reference to it and so did others in the arena.

We have the same case when Ay uses Shunsin:

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Here:

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Here:

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Kimmamoro did say Lee's movements were unpredictable which is completely different case from being inhumane cuz of the way one moves...I've clearly shown with that Gaara's example how Lee was not attacking but moving to Gaara prompting him to say the movements weren't human.

That being said, Kimmi said this as well to sum up the fact that it wasn't just Taijutsu that was the case in terms of him saying he couldn't read Lee's overall movement.

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However, when it comes to Gai's case it's different..You're telling me Gaara judged his movement wasn;t human from 2 hits that got blocked? Look at the arrows. Look in between the hits. That was speed which is clear.

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I've already proved to you that it's not just Taijutsu. It's his actual movements. It's not human and we've seen Gaara fighting alongside speedsters and yet was that surprised. Even when we saw Gai surprisesd Madara with waw foot speed before he appeared, his view wasn't blocked when he had the Rinnegan that could see through Gai and if we're going to argue that, then how about Madara being a sensor? Obito upon becoming the Juubi's Jin was granted the ability to sense but Madara's was already a sensor and already anticipated Gai coming at him. Even with his view blocked by Gaara's sand, Madara wasn't surprised or anything with Minato coming in his front

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but Gai's case was evidently different prompting the talk about his movements as the distance was pretty fair and Gai could be seen coming out the steam in a magical case where Madara wasn't anticipating nothing, which makes 0 sense

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Pretty sure the above^^ addresses everything.

Agreed about Visual Genjutsu, but Sound Genjutsu is wrong. Itachi said that Genjutsu didn't work on Kakashi because he hit his clone. We can literally see the Genjutsu affect the clone so saying it doesn't affect clones at all for whatever reason doesn't make any sense. Onoki can't do anything but adjust weight and that doesn't break Genjutsu unless you are gonna tell me where it interrupts the chakra flow.

No:

Yes but the clone is completely unaffected hence the SFX "Grab" in the top panel after Genjutsu took place:

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He wasn't affected which was why the clone strengthened the hold on him and shortly after that, he stated "No wonder" because he figured the effect wasn't taken place hence the clone being able to still move after that.

If the clone was affected, it won't be tightening the grip on him especially when one can't even move their body after being placed in the Genjutsu. Seen with Cee, Bee and some other cases.

Onoki point might be valid to an extent as well. I mean, we can see Sakura and Chiyo just touching Naruto which snapped him out

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but let's even assume it's not the case, a clone or so can always place their chakra into Ay in the worst case scenario possible.

Now this is all wrong. First of all White Rage isn't physical, so no physical attack is going to destroy the orb. Second of all a follow up Muki Tensei uses the ground to create a barrier for whatever offense they can mount in that time. Whether or not it hurts his teammates is an irrelevant point to bring up, especially since Itachi canonically withstood it well enough to use Susanoo due to his Edo body, and him and Nagato are both Edo zombies here.

Bringing up White Rage is once again not a smart strategy for them and the bold is an assumption on your part. Never was it pointed out that it was due to his Edo body, it must have been a case of will power as it was even clear that with his Edo Body, he was indeed affected severely

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-- I mean we've seen cases similar to this in the manga involving will power, it is evidently shown that in his Edo state he's affected seriously otherwise, I don't see why he would be like that from the beginning. Even Sasuke himself was holding Susano'o up and later stated he could not maintain it as the technique drew on but let's look at a similar case that's not far off from Itachi's in my eyes, Onoki was hit by Madara's Flower technique like the rest of the Kages but used used willpower solely despite showing the effects hit him from the start. He later overcame via willpower despite being affected earlier as we know the fact of this technique

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, Itachi had the willpower to protect Sasuke at all cost which enabled him push despite the scenario he was in. Plus he partially did so while affected as you can even see he was struggling with it still

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Counters to White Rage I see:

- Like I stated, why use a technique that would leave your teammates affected? That would prevent them from functioning and using techniques? Makes no sense. White Rage is solely for Kabuto as he even had to liquefy his inside to function in this. DB4 states "Only the Jutsu user can elude it's effect" so his partners stand no choice of functioning well here. Itachi only manages to hold a ribcage here so maintaining V4 is something that would never happen.

- White Rage takes at least a seal to form, then spitting out before wrapping and with intel, I bet you these guys would be ready. Minato can use chakra arms this large

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to protect his teammates before the full effect takes place as they have intel on the Jutsu. White Rage doesn't last long and considering the fact that there are several clones with several chakra arms, this would leave Kabuto lost at which opened Minato to go for since different chakra arms would be protecting two opponents with several Minato's around. White Rage won't even last long based on Manga feats strictly, and the second Kabuto is out of Susano'o with White Rage over, R.I.P.

- Then we have summonings, which can be used to take things from the battlefield. Minato can use a summoning as a dummy to take White Rage out the battlefield. All he needs to do is summon one of those fodders and tag them or have his clone enter its mouth like Naruto took a Path into Gama's mouth, soon as White Rage is wrapping around to be released he throws his kunai to it and teleports it inside the mouth of the summon and unsummons it back like Kabuto did here with the Snake

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. All three are still present in the battlefield with the clone and the summon gone while White Rage doesn't last long as well. They have intel, and Kabuto also needs at least a seal

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before spitting out and having the thing wrap and take place. Minato would have enough time to act quickly. Especially when in SM, he showed the ability to make physical movement(throwing a Kunai), teleporting and despite Kumai starting before it and taking place in the midst of him doing this, it still wasn't completed showing how fast he's to act.

White Rage doesn't last long at all as we saw it's length, even this scan proves it exactly when you look at how indecisive Kabuto is in terms of rushing on who to eliminate first

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shortly after the jutsu vanishes, so the second counter with the different clones could sit well here when Kabuto is making his decisions.

No, Hirudora doesn't destroy CT or even come close to doing so. Gai's jutsu still has to reach the orb. Itachi had a plan to counter yet they still needed Bijuu Dama level firepower to take out the construct. The CST thing also makes zero sense. The only reason mini Katsuyu was able to protect them from that level of damage is because it was spread out across the village as an omni directional force. If Nagato fires it in one direction like he does his regular Shinra Tensei the area of effect drops thus the lethality of the blow increases. That obviously means the teammates getting hit thing makes no sense as well.

Not at all, Itachi planning was because he had no intel on it. He had to study it based on seeing how it works, a jutsu of an individual is at advantage when one doesn't know how it works as stated here

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-- Now, that featless Orb can probably be destroyed by a mere Rasengan as we all know it gets stronger as it pull more rock and other surrounding objects to it, without that 0 feats. Let me also make it clear that there's close to 0 proof that Nagato would be using ST in the midst of CT, not happening. We've seen him put all his energy and focus into it while being used and there's little reason to believe that 1.

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and 2.

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unless you can show me any? The only time is when he's completed it, fully.

As I said with intel, the orb gets destroyed easily. The Orb doesn't start it's pull till it's reached a certain point in the air, that being said Gai's technique doesn't need to able to reach it from ground level. All that needs to be done is planning, it becomes clear when one is using CT as there are signs but with these chakra arms

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it's not difficult to fling one

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to where it is but keep in mind the gravitational pull being of huge assistance so before it builds into some far more durable, it's turned into nothing. In a magical scenario where ST can be used, it would never ever be used as counter to a technique that was so fast, that Juubi Madara had to block at all cost. Nagato doesn't even have such reaction feats to suggest that he can react to AT with ST. I mean we even saw how fast Gai could activate the 7G and blast off V3 and all this took place midway between Madara's V3 attempting to stab Naruto.

You have a point with the Katsuyu part but like you said, one direction. I can also argue the team not being in the same direction, they don't have to be. Split them up into different directions that's not necessarily far from each other and it's not an issue when their speed enables them to move between positions easily and then it becomes more difficult to focus ST on an opponent here with all being extremely fast. Not to mention the fact that this is in the DB4: In addition by stopping the utilization of other Pain paths the amount of chakra put in the jutsu, its strength and area of effect can be greatly increased. Minato, a sensor in the battlefield can alert the team Nagato is preparing a jutsu and with an enormous amount being put in, one can readily prepare for CT or CST especially whoever stands right in front of Nagato knowing it's that direction it's coming at. Not to mention this leaves Nagato out of the fight for a long long time so why use it? Make no sense to me.

But let's take a look at something here, study Kakashi when he's hit with ST, there's a barrier even before it hits him or exactly touches him

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Especially from a very very close range, it's harder to dodge but in these guys position? It becomes not as difficult or at least they can be teleported before that barrier somewhat hits fully. Then think of this, ST kinda travels. Study the scan with Kakashi and look at the ground, it shows the directional path in which it faces the opponent getting destroyed as it gets closer, look at the ground. It travels and destroys the ground

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If Minato tags his teammates or has his clones nearby, can't he just teleport them last second as the wave would be shown or the ground would be shown getting destroyed as it goes by? Considering how fast he has been shown to act especially in the Kamui situation as it was already initiated as I explained. Even if the opponent cannot react, one who can see the path from another direction can teleport them instantly. Don't know how you see this but I think it's viable especially if one is not exactly too close due to Susano'o because if he's not in there, GG but then I can see them avoiding a hit if they stay out of Nagato's LOS and with their speed, it's not an issue really especially if he's aiming at a particular direction to avoid his teammates getting hit.

A Shinra Tensei that didn't have it's energy sent all over the village had enough power to put down the Gama Trio let alone what a CST will do to these 3.

Agreed if it hits.

A v4 Susanoo from Itachi>>A v3 from Madara. Idk why you and others use the bold as some kind of stamina argument for Gai but it clearly doesn't work like that. Gai gets rejuvenated when he opens the gates. 8G Gai was not a weakened Gai. That was Gai using energy for fuel that is far beyond anything he has ever used in the Manga. Same goes for when he enters the 7th Gate, which is why despite being near death's door his Hirudora was the same level of power. The only thing his previous condition affects when he enters Gates is how long the gates last.

So no, Gai has shown nothing that leads to him using Hirudora any more than 3 times when he's in the 7th Gate, and Shinra Tensei already easily repels one of those.

This doesn't really make sense. First of all, let's make it clear that as long as Gai is in a particular Gate, he can use that technique provided by that Gate multiple times. That needs to be pointed, as long as he's in the 7 Gates he can use Hirudora definitely more than three times without a doubt especially as we seen he can use EE multiple times and NG in the 8th Gate and that was far more taxing. People need to learn this, the technique of the Gates isn't what puts the strain on the user, it's the Gate itself. The Gate pushes the user's body above the limit enabling them to accomplish certain Taijutsu feats:

Understand using a technique isn't what causes the Pain, it's the Gate that does. When Gai stops after the second EE, what's said:

"I can imagine how Painful the Shimon would be when the Tomon(Fifth Gate) is already hard on the user"

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When Gai's body starts aching like you're saying against Kisame, what was said:

Spoiler

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So AT can't be the reason for him being incredibly exhausted.


When Lee opens the 5th, the more Gates open and then the more the strain on your body

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Point being:

- If Gai can withstand the pain in the 8th Gate and still carry on using the technique it's pushes his limit to use, there's absolutely not a single reason why he won't be able to do the same in the 7th Gate. Not a single reason. Withstand the pain of the Gates? You can function in the Gates. You can function/withstand the pain of the Gates? You can use the Taijutsu technique it pushes you to use. That's how it works. Gai could withstand the pain of the 8th Gate and could hence use EE (I have to get used to the pain, he said), if he could withstand it then there's no way the 7th would be an issue which enables him use AT.

- You also need to think of the fact that when the 7th Gate is opened, 1-6 Gates are opened. When all 8 Gates are opened, 1-7 Gates are opened hence you're withstanding the pain of the 7th when in the 8th. If Gai can endure something way more painful enabling him to carry on with the techniques it provides, the 7th is and would never be an issue as he'll take that with 0 issues from a rest state.

- Also how can you even state that it's not an impressive feat? The 2nd Gate is the only Gate that boosts him

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If Gai is 80% weak, the 2nd Gate isn't going to boost him to a more improved level than it would if he's 50% weak. Opening the Gates again and battling indeed is a feat because at his limit, he's completely out of commission but put up to a better level, once he goes off he's in a worst state. Hence his War Arc feats are indeed impressive, not to mention opening the Gates isn't even an easy feat alone, Kakashi can only open two for a reason. It's taxing and while it's being held, one withstands what it brings. Asakujaku entry "Only Gai could withstand opening up to 6 gates" so it's a good stamina feat on Gai's path to go in and out the Gate continuously.

Not to mention if Gai can use 3 far more powerful technique in a far more powerful Gate three times, then there's absolutely no way it makes sense that Gai won't be able to use more of a weaker technique in a less taxing Gate. Make no sense.

And Ay never put a hole in any V3 Susanoo. That was V2, the skeletal variant. Ay can't land multiple blows before he gets repelled or before Kabuto's team takes the action necessary to end them. And in Scenario 2 Yata repels all of these attacks as they are not even strong enough to damage V4 on it's own, meaning Susanoo is never broken open.

That's assuming they can even follow a lightened Ay and do the necessary things to prevent him which isn't the case. Add Gai and Minato to make the work easier, there's no issue especially once Minato has Susano'o and his teammates tagged. Makes this far more easier for Ay just that Minato doesn't need to go with him necessarily if he's tagged

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Once Susanoo goes up, either White Rage is activated and Team Speed is immobilized and killed, Kabuto's Genjutsu gives Team Zombie and opening to kill off Team Speed, or CST turns them all to paste.

Countered this.

That and I haven't even talked about Gedo Mazo, which is beyond overkill.

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No reason as to why we'll be seeing that here. It would harm/drain his life force as a matter of fact.

 

[ARGUS]

CST screws these guys over and with the starting distance and Kabuto and Itachi here, Nagato isn’t getting blitzed either

Team zombie mid diffs

 

[sayian]

What prevents raikage from blitzing any of them? Granted he can probably only do it once by the time they respond. If he takes out nagato then kabuto uses WR. if he takes out kabuto then nagato uses the obvious. Itachi would shield the one that isn't targeted by raikage so that the other speedsters can't bother them so quickly. Zombies win.

 

[Edogawa]

No, they have something better: Speed, since that shared vision thingy didn't work so well for the Naraka path when Naruto (with a simple trick) killed him with a couple of rasengans. Couple that with the speed of any of the three characters and that's it for Nagato (and again, we're talking about the shared vision of summons, which are nowhere near in speed with shinobis, unless you're telling me that Nagato summons are at least as fast as the other team). Both of those summons were destroyed by Itachi with simple kunais (plus the Naraka Summon is immobile), Hirudora would wipe the field with them.

You're not understanding my point. The summons don't have to move anywhere. Their sole purpose is to remain in a position, where they can provide an shared vision of the entire matchup's location, which allows Nagato to coordinate Team Speed's movements and react to them proficiently along with his superb sensing. Rinnegan shared vision > speed is canon.

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[/IMG]

KCM Naruto > 7 Gates Gai/Ay in speed.

Right. One shot? In the war he at least fired two times at Madara, I don't recall him having some resting time in between. Neither jutsu is instant, in the summoning jutsu you need the hand seals (as it has been seen pretty much every time it was used, even with rinnegan) and both Shinra Tensei or Bansho Tennin you need to use the hands to direct what you're going to push or pull (again, as it has been shown time after time). The only thing I recall being truly instant is FTG, which doens't use hand seals to perform. The panda shield at the very best will shield Nagato, not the summon he's using to move, so the shockwave would kill that, and same would be for Shinra Tensei.

> Check chapter 610: Jubi revival. Kurama rejuvenated Gai and was later healed by Sakura's. Gai's only max usage of Hirudora is one by canon, and I'll give him two out of generosity because not like Hirudora is doing anything.

> Summoning Jutsu is a space-time like FTG, so it's obviously instant; it only needs one hand-seal which is faster than Hirduora. Shinra Tensei manipulates gravity, and gravitational waves travel at light speed, so while ST is not instant, it's virtually instant and is by tons of times faster than Hirduora.

> A hand movement isn't necessary for ST. [

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]

> You're overrating Hirduora. It's not fast as you claim. It starts as a punch, a wind pressure is released, the wind starts spiralling, takes in a form of a tiger and it explodes. All of that process took short time that Kisame, whose not an expert in Taijutsu, was able to match at equal time it took for Gai. It doesn't pack any noteworthy shockwave implying it's breaching ST's defense, when it couldn't kill Kisame at direct hit (mind you, air pressure underwater is stronger than outside it) and that's the same Kisame who can be killed by a pencil. A base defensive ST could disintegrate an SM FRS. Hirudora isn't doing shit, and it's easily repelled by ST. Konoha's intel that is fully aware of Gai's full power stated Taijutsu could not work on Nagato, which Gai himself agreed to.

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When did Bansho Tennin pulled a KCM moving Naruto? Seeing that you are mentioning the chakra hands I'm guessing you either refer to the Pain + Itachi vs Naruto + Bee fight (in which case Naruto was standing still and Nagato moved his hand to pull him, again showing that it's not instant) or the fight with Sasuke at the valley of the end (in which case he wasn't in KCM). And BTW, I'm trying to think a speed feat of KCM Naruto to say that he's faster that either a lightened Ay or a 7th Gated Gai (which both do have speed feats acknowledged by their opponents), so why are you saying KCM Naruto is faster than them? (regular on-foot speed wise). Just wondering, cause since Naruto first transformed to deflect the bijuudamas I don't recall anyone being surprised by his speed.

You're making it seem that Team Speed is going to constantly move every second to prevent being pulled by BT. The moment there is a stop on any of them, Nagato will pull them at that moment then kills them with Human Path. KCM Naruto is faster than V2 Ay whom is faster than 7 Gates Gai. That's canon fact. V2 was the fastest character by author's statement, until KCM Naruto showed up and dodged his full speed, so KCM Naruto is by default faster than 7 Gates Gai, who was not considered fastest character. KCM Naruto could not blitz a Rinnegan shared vision, so nothing implies Gai is doing anything better, when he's slower.

You're only right about lightened Ay, but that's not a factor since lightened Ay couldn't outright blitz ET Madara, so there is no reason to believe he's blitzing Nagato. Lightened Ay only landed a blow on Madara, because Mei blocked his vision via Hidden Mist. Nagato can sense and is able to fly, meaning Lightened Ay isn't getting any chance to blitz him while he's on air.

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Limited by area or people he can mark. If he marks anyone from Team Zombie, CT is useless. And he doesn't even have to do that: CT doesn't restrict movement, even less chakra hands. So he just needs to touch the other 2, grab a Kunai with a chakra hand, throw / move it as far as possible from the CT core, teleport to the kunai. Rinse and repeat as needed until sphere is complete.

You're basically implying Minato can throw a kunai across a mountain range worth of distance, when even given prep time he hasn't shown the feat to throw it further than what CT can collect. You need to prove Minato's strength feats. Again, look at how big CT is:

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Its gravitational pull will pull every area Minato can mark by feats, and prevents anyone from moving in its gravity range as stated by Itachi.

 

[Eng nawashi]

I never figured out why CST is always needed whether Nagato wants to create a very deep crater as wide as konoha or if he wants to kill people like minato,Gai or Ay .i mean none of them (even with kuarma cloaks)can survive getting pushed down on the ground (not sent flying away) by a force far inferior to that of CST like the one that sent the boss toads out of konoha and even then that level of force may not be needed .

 

[Edogawa]

I never figured out why CST is always needed whether Nagato wants to create a very deep crater as wide as konoha or if he wants to kill people like minato,Gai or Ay .i mean none of them (even with kuarma cloaks)can survive getting pushed down on the ground (not sent flying away) by a force far inferior to that of CST like the one that sent the boss toads out of konoha and even then that level of force may not be needed .

One can argue CST is needed to demolish the landscape Minato can mark, since Nagato will have a trouble hitting him with linear attacks, if blondie is gonna run in circle; guaranteed Minato will have to get in close contact with Nagato to mark him or with Rasengan, as he casually does to all of his opponents, and that moment he foolishly does that Nagato will ST his ass right off the bat. Either Nagato gets in close range or vice versa, and CST will not be necessary for this reason. So I don't think Nagato even needs CST to decimate Team Speed low difficulty. He doesn't in addition need his mountain or Biju sized ST for this matchup. His base ST is enough.

 

[Eng nawashi]

One can argue CST is needed to demolish the landscape Minato can mark, since Nagato will have a trouble hitting him with linear attacks, if blondie is gonna run in circle; guaranteed Minato will have to get in close contact with Nagato to mark him or with Rasengan, as he casually does to all of his opponents, and that moment he foolishly does that Nagato will ST his ass right off the bat. Either Nagato gets in close range or vice versa, and CST will not be necessary for this reason. So I don't think Nagato even needs CST to decimate Team Speed low difficulty. He doesn't in addition need his mountain or Biju sized ST for this matchup. His base ST is enough.

I don't think beating Minato is that complicated .FTG is useless once Nagato applies the force of ST,regardless of its range as long as Minato is subjected, since Minato would still be move in the direction of the force even after he teleports .Nagato doesn't need to use ST that reaches as far as minato's furthest mark in order to hit him.

 

[Edogawa]

I don't think beating Minato is that complicated .FTG is useless once Nagato applies the force of ST,regardless of its range as long as Minato is subjected, since Minato would still be move in the direction of the force even after he teleports .Nagato doesn't need to use ST that reaches as far as minato's furthest mark in order to hit him.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just saying if someone were to bring that up the range point.

 

[Mellanoma]

This fight is very one sided in favor of team zombie:

In this situation a combination of Bone forest, Susanoo and Deva literally negates all of Guy and Ay's capabilities.

The real fight would be Team zombie vs KCM Minato as it will be a very long battle of FTG trolls.

Which he will be combating.
CT, Susanoo/Ama/Tsukyomi/Bone Forest/ Tayuya Flute and webbing.


CT alone clears the field of FTG Kunai and focuses them into a single point severly limiting his teleporting capabilities.


Team Zombie: Med Difficulty at best

What prevents raikage from blitzing any of them? Granted he can probably only do it once by the time they respond. If he takes out nagato then kabuto uses WR. if he takes out kabuto then nagato uses the obvious. Itachi would shield the one that isn't targeted by raikage so that the other speedsters can't bother them so quickly. Zombies win.

Using V4 Susanoo as a primary shield
Deva path as both offensive and defensive
Bone Forrest to destroy footing

Not much guy or Ay can do against that.
Especially if Nagato can just pull them towards susanoo or bone forest/Asura


You could argue Minato saving them but the more Minato works to keep them alive the sooner he will end himself. Minato stands a better chance alone than with those 2 people helping(Hindering) him.

 

[KidGamer65]

Nope. Gai's movement speed is indeed shown there, I've argued this in the past several times, just make sure your read everything in detail:



Pretty sure the above^^ addresses everything.

The above literally doesn't address a thing. That entire wall talks about Gai's movements in general, not the speed he moves from Point A to Point B.

ow is it ridiculous for a Jin? It's not, Gaara saying Gai's movement wasn't human was based on what he saw. Which was Gai keeping up with someone of that level. Using it's obviously his Taijutsu isn't a point when his Taijutsu wasn't singlehandedly pointed out.

Wrong. You're twisting the meaning of Gaara's words here. Gai's movements were not human. That is what he stated. All those other examples are irrelevant as they are not Gai vs. Madara nor did Ay and Lee do what Gai did as the scans clearly show. Gai engaged him in Taijutsu, which relies on skill and striking speed along with general reaction speed, which is why the bold makes no sense. Nothing to do with movement speed from Point A to Point B.

What Gai did alone debunks everything anyone has to say on the matter as he didn't dash from Point A to point B for anyone to call his movement speed alone to be that fast. He dashed initially, but from there on out he threw punches and kicks. That's skill, reaction speed and striking speed. Not debatable.

However, when it comes to Gai's case it's different..You're telling me Gaara judged his movement wasn;t human from 2 hits that got blocked? Look at the arrows. Look in between the hits. That was speed which is clear.

His hits being blocked doesn't change how they look to Gaara's eyes. Obviously speed was the focus, but not his Shunshin/Running speed. His reaction and striking speed is what was being highlighted in this confrontation.

I've already proved to you that it's not just Taijutsu. It's his actual movements. It's not human and we've seen Gaara fighting alongside speedsters and yet was that surprised. Even when we saw Gai surprisesd Madara with waw foot speed before he appeared, his view wasn't blocked when he had the Rinnegan that could see through Gai and if we're going to argue that, then how about Madara being a sensor? Obito upon becoming the Juubi's Jin was granted the ability to sense but Madara's was already a sensor and already anticipated Gai coming at him. Even with his view blocked by Gaara's sand, Madara wasn't surprised or anything with Minato coming in his front

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but Gai's case was evidently different prompting the talk about his movements as the distance was pretty fair and Gai could be seen coming out the steam in a magical case where Madara wasn't anticipating nothing, which makes 0 sense

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Doesn't matter if Gai surprised him when Madara easily dodged that and countered every single one of Gai's hits after that. All this proves is that Gai is physically superior to SM Minato, which is something we all know at this point. Doesn't make his ability to cross distances, i.e movement speed or travel speed whatever you want to label it, greater than Ay's or KCM Minato's.

Yes but the clone is completely unaffected hence the SFX "Grab" in the top panel after Genjutsu took place:

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He wasn't affected which was why the clone strengthened the hold on him and shortly after that, he stated "No wonder" because he figured the effect wasn't taken place hence the clone being able to still move after that.

If the clone was affected, it won't be tightening the grip on him especially when one can't even move their body after being placed in the Genjutsu. Seen with Cee, Bee and some other cases.

Agreed then. However this strategy is still a shaky one at best as it only works when clones are already on the field, and only Minato has the ability to make shadow clones. If Genjutsu is cast when clones are not out or right after they have been wiped out then they all get caught, and even if there are clones on the field, it could still take time for Minato to free all his teammates.

Onoki point might be valid to an extent as well. I mean, we can see Sakura and Chiyo just touching Naruto which snapped him out

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but let's even assume it's not the case, a clone or so can always place their chakra into Ay in the worst case scenario possible.
[/QUOTE]

Lmao they inserted their chakra when they touched Naruto. A pat on the back isn't going to dispel any Genjutsu let alone one that Sasuke and Itachi needed the partner method to cover.

Bringing up White Rage is once again not a smart strategy for them and the bold is an assumption on your part. Never was it pointed out that it was due to his Edo body, it must have been a case of will power as it was even clear that with his Edo Body, he was indeed affected severely

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-- I mean we've seen cases similar to this in the manga involving will power, it is evidently shown that in his Edo state he's affected seriously otherwise, I don't see why he would be like that from the beginning. Even Sasuke himself was holding Susano'o up and later stated he could not maintain it as the technique drew on but let's look at a similar case that's not far off from Itachi's in my eyes, Onoki was hit by Madara's Flower technique like the rest of the Kages but used used willpower solely despite showing the effects hit him from the start. He later overcame via willpower despite being affected earlier as we know the fact of this technique

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, Itachi had the willpower to protect Sasuke at all cost which enabled him push despite the scenario he was in. Plus he partially did so while affected as you can even see he was struggling with it still

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That's common sense and it's a million times better of an argument than willpower with a million times more of a basis. White Rage creates vibrations that made Sasuke feel like his bones were creaking. Edo Zombies do not have bones. White Rage also creates a loud sound along with light, which is why Itachi was covering his ears and closing his eyes. Nothing to do with physical pain, which Edo Tensei can't even feel as they are undead zombies. What Itachi personally described was the air vibrations causing their senses to be dulled, thus preventing movement. Susanoo requires no movement nor is there a reason why Itachi wouldn't be able to hold Susanoo.

So yeah, if you don't have anything to substantiate the willpower argument it's pretty clear what the case here is.

Counters to White Rage I see:

- Like I stated, why use a technique that would leave your teammates affected? That would prevent them from functioning and using techniques? Makes no sense. White Rage is solely for Kabuto as he even had to liquefy his inside to function in this. DB4 states "Only the Jutsu user can elude it's effect" so his partners stand no choice of functioning well here. Itachi only manages to hold a ribcage here so maintaining V4 is something that would never happen.

Lmao you really need to drop this point. It's extremely weak considering it doesn't matter if they are affected or not nor does it matter if Itachi can't hold a full Susanoo or not.

- White Rage takes at least a seal to form, then spitting out before wrapping and with intel, I bet you these guys would be ready. Minato can use chakra arms this large

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to protect his teammates before the full effect takes place as they have intel on the Jutsu. White Rage doesn't last long and considering the fact that there are several clones with several chakra arms, this would leave Kabuto lost at which opened Minato to go for since different chakra arms would be protecting two opponents with several Minato's around. White Rage won't even last long based on Manga feats strictly, and the second Kabuto is out of Susano'o with White Rage over, R.I.P.

Uh, no. Not only do chakra arms have zero durability feats to actually defend them from the following jutsu:

-Shinra Tensei.
-Susanoo
-Sawarabi no Mai.

And really most offenses that can be used during white rage, Minato might not even be able to form chakra arms depending on whether or not OP wants him to be an do. Bold also makes zero sense as there is no reason for Kabuto to leave Susanoo nor would it even be close to R.I.P. Not a single person on this team has the capability to blitz AND kill him in one shot. Ay's punch won't kill him outright, and Hirudora can be reacted to and either evaded or blocked by summoning Manda II, which is just another reason why Team Speed gets beaten pretty easily here.

- Then we have summonings, which can be used to take things from the battlefield. Minato can use a summoning as a dummy to take White Rage out the battlefield. All he needs to do is summon one of those fodders and tag them or have his clone enter its mouth like Naruto took a Path into Gama's mouth, soon as White Rage is wrapping around to be released he throws his kunai to it and teleports it inside the mouth of the summon and unsummons it back like Kabuto did here with the Snake

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. All three are still present in the battlefield with the clone and the summon gone while White Rage doesn't last long as well. They have intel, and Kabuto also needs at least a seal

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before spitting out and having the thing wrap and take place. Minato would have enough time to act quickly. Especially when in SM, he showed the ability to make physical movement(throwing a Kunai), teleporting and despite Kumai starting before it and taking place in the midst of him doing this, it still wasn't completed showing how fast he's to act.

:lol Huh? Are you sure we're talking about Hiraishin here? There is no "throw a Kunai to it and warp it away". Minato needs to make contact with it somehow in order to warp it. That and a Kunai can easily be deflected by Muki Tensei so this is a poor counter as well. Itachi could only run a few meters before White Rage executed so you can forget about Minato and his team doing anything given the distance Kabuto has to prepare his technique.

Do you really expect me to believe that despite starting from 50 meters, Kabuto will wait for them to get close enough to make any of this viable before releasing White Rage? Nah.

White Rage doesn't last long at all as we saw it's length, even this scan proves it exactly when you look at how indecisive Kabuto is in terms of rushing on who to eliminate first

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shortly after the jutsu vanishes, so the second counter with the different clones could sit well here when Kabuto is making his decisions.

Doesn't matter. It lasts more than long enough and the bold is a weak point.

As I said with intel, the orb gets destroyed easily. The Orb doesn't start it's pull till it's reached a certain point in the air, that being said Gai's technique doesn't need to able to reach it from ground level. All that needs to be done is planning, it becomes clear when one is using CT as there are signs but with these chakra arms

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it's not difficult to fling one

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to where it is but keep in mind the gravitational pull being of huge assistance so before it builds into some far more durable, it's turned into nothing. In a magical scenario where ST can be used, it would never ever be used as counter to a technique that was so fast, that Juubi Madara had to block at all cost. Nagato doesn't even have such reaction feats to suggest that he can react to AT with ST. I mean we even saw how fast Gai could activate the 7G and blast off V3 and all this took place midway between Madara's V3 attempting to stab Naruto.

Ok, full stop :lol Kisame has canonically reacted to and matched Hirudora's attack speed with GSB. Intercepting, yes intercepting, not blitzing, Madara isn't a feat that lets Gai blitz Nagato with AT and even the notion that he can is laughable. Gai had to get in Madara's face before using Hirudora and Madara still easily countered it. That isn't a feat for Hirudora's speed, that's a feat for Gai's raw speed.

The rest I won't address since I agree CT would likely fail.

You have a point with the Katsuyu part but like you said, one direction. I can also argue the team not being in the same direction, they don't have to be. Split them up into different directions that's not necessarily far from each other and it's not an issue when their speed enables them to move between positions easily and then it becomes more difficult to focus ST on an opponent here with all being extremely fast. Not to mention the fact that this is in the DB4: In addition by stopping the utilization of other Pain paths the amount of chakra put in the jutsu, its strength and area of effect can be greatly increased. Minato, a sensor in the battlefield can alert the team Nagato is preparing a jutsu and with an enormous amount being put in, one can readily prepare for CT or CST especially whoever stands right in front of Nagato knowing it's that direction it's coming at. Not to mention this leaves Nagato out of the fight for a long long time so why use it? Make no sense to me.

Shinra Tensei at it's widest covers an entire village. That in a single direction is still miles wide and long so we can forget about anyone evading it. They'll have to be fighting from opposite sites in order to make this strategy viable and even then, it means somebody dies, which means they lose, especially if Gai or Ay goes down.

@bold: Not only does Nagato have powers outside of Deva, but using it guarantees someone's death as not a single person on this team can anticipate the jutsu. Sure, Minato can sense Nagato building up chakra, but that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know where it'll come from or what area to evade to. Even if it was spread out, not only did the villagers have Katsuyu on their side but none of them took the blast point blank. Like I said, a regular omnidirectional Shinra Tensei wiped out the Gama Trio after sending them flying from the center of the village to the outskirts. Something like that used by Pain is enough to do moderate to serious damage to everyone except Ay. Something like that used by Nagato who is stated to be a level above Pain would either seriously injure Minato and Gai or put them out of commission, or at least do enough damage to allow a quick finish from Itachi or Kabuto. CST isn't needed for a kill, it's just a guaranteed one hit kill.

But let's take a look at something here, study Kakashi when he's hit with ST, there's a barrier even before it hits him or exactly touches him

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Especially from a very very close range, it's harder to dodge but in these guys position? It becomes not as difficult or at least they can be teleported before that barrier somewhat hits fully. Then think of this, ST kinda travels. Study the scan with Kakashi and look at the ground, it shows the directional path in which it faces the opponent getting destroyed as it gets closer, look at the ground. It travels and destroys the ground

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If Minato tags his teammates or has his clones nearby, can't he just teleport them last second as the wave would be shown or the ground would be shown getting destroyed as it goes by? Considering how fast he has been shown to act especially in the Kamui situation as it was already initiated as I explained. Even if the opponent cannot react, one who can see the path from another direction can teleport them instantly. Don't know how you see this but I think it's viable especially if one is not exactly too close due to Susano'o because if he's not in there, GG but then I can see them avoiding a hit if they stay out of Nagato's LOS and with their speed, it's not an issue really especially if he's aiming at a particular direction to avoid his teammates getting hit.

I have no idea what you are attempting to point out here, but there is no barrier. Kakashi swings at Deva and next panel after it shows a close up on Deva's face Kakashi gets blown away. There is no barrier when Shinra Tensei is used. That's not how the jutsu is described to work. An invisible repulsive force originating from the user is sent towards the target. That's it.

Yes, Shinra Tensei travels, but it doesn't matter when you can't see it or track it or anticipate it in the slightest if we're talking about the boss toad one shotting variants down to the most basic Shinra Tensei. So we can forget about them evading that. You can anticipate CST due to the large amount of chakra, but the jutsu is long enough to cross the epicenter of Konoha to the edge and wide enough to cover miles of distance even if sent in a single direction. Evasion isn't possible unless Kunai are planted behind Nagato, and even then it'd be a fail because Nagato would release ST after they teleport as all Minato can do is tell that he's building chakra.

And even then, Kabuto can control the ground itself via Jirobo's Doton and Muki Tensei. Tags are easily relocated.

This doesn't really make sense. First of all, let's make it clear that as long as Gai is in a particular Gate, he can use that technique provided by that Gate multiple times. That needs to be pointed, as long as he's in the 7 Gates he can use Hirudora definitely more than three times without a doubt especially as we seen he can use EE multiple times and NG in the 8th Gate and that was far more taxing. People need to learn this, the technique of the Gates isn't what puts the strain on the user, it's the Gate itself. The Gate pushes the user's body above the limit enabling them to accomplish certain Taijutsu feats:

No, what you are suggesting here once again is what makes no sense. You claim Gai can use Hirudora more than 3 times yet your only evidence is Gai in a higher Gate with a far greater amount of energy using two completely different techniques than Hirudora. 8G Gai>>>>>7G Gai and that fact alone ends this comparison.

As for the bold, that makes zero sense. The Gates put strain on the body, yes, and obviously the technique itself puts more strain on the body as it costs stamina to use those techniques. Being in Gates+Using big moves=More stamina used.

Point being:

- If Gai can withstand the pain in the 8th Gate and still carry on using the technique it's pushes his limit to use, there's absolutely not a single reason why he won't be able to do the same in the 7th Gate. Not a single reason. Withstand the pain of the Gates? You can function in the Gates. You can function/withstand the pain of the Gates? You can use the Taijutsu technique it pushes you to use. That's how it works. Gai could withstand the pain of the 8th Gate and could hence use EE (I have to get used to the pain, he said), if he could withstand it then there's no way the 7th would be an issue which enables him use AT.

8G Gai is far beyond 7G Gai. Enduring the 8th Gate's pain in the 8th Gate doesn't mean he can spam Hirudora. Being able to use EE multiple times with an amount of energy fueling him that is greater than the 7th Gate by leaps and bounds isn't evidence he can spam Hirudora.

- You also need to think of the fact that when the 7th Gate is opened, 1-6 Gates are opened. When all 8 Gates are opened, 1-7 Gates are opened hence you're withstanding the pain of the 7th when in the 8th. If Gai can endure something way more painful enabling him to carry on with the techniques it provides, the 7th is and would never be an issue as he'll take that with 0 issues from a rest state.

The level of pain just increases. That's basic and obvious nor does it matter here.

- Also how can you even state that it's not an impressive feat? The 2nd Gate is the only Gate that boosts him

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If Gai is 80% weak, the 2nd Gate isn't going to boost him to a more improved level than it would if he's 50% weak. Opening the Gates again and battling indeed is a feat because at his limit, he's completely out of commission but put up to a better level, once he goes off he's in a worst state. Hence his War Arc feats are indeed impressive, not to mention opening the Gates isn't even an easy feat alone, Kakashi can only open two for a reason. It's taxing and while it's being held, one withstands what it brings. Asakujaku entry "Only Gai could withstand opening up to 6 gates" so it's a good stamina feat on Gai's path to go in and out the Gate continuously.

Gai states that the 2nd Gate boosts his strength. That's it. Every single gate further boosts the user's physical abilities so idk what that is supposed to prove. More Gates released=More chakra/energy released from inside the body=More powerful user. That's why Gai's speed and power all go up when he increases the number of gates in use, it's because he has more energy fueling him.

Obviously using the gates requires a lot of stamina and is a good feat in that field, but no, it's nothing that proves what you are claiming. Not even close.

Not to mention if Gai can use 3 far more powerful technique in a far more powerful Gate three times, then there's absolutely no way it makes sense that Gai won't be able to use more of a weaker technique in a less taxing Gate. Make no sense.

You can keep repeating this but it won't be any less flawed than it already is. This is your logic:

"BM Naruto can spam Bijuu Dama so Base Naruto without Kurama's influence should be able to spam Rasen Shuriken"

Except that makes no sense because BM Naruto's reserves are leaps and bounds beyond Base Naruto's thus rendering this comparison flawed, just like your 8G and 7G comparison. 8G Gai being able to use a far more powerful technique multiple times is irrelevant to what 7G Gai can do as 8G Gai>>>>>>>>>>7G Gai and it's not close. The gap between the 8th Gate and 7th Gate is far larger than the gaps between any other two Gates.

That's assuming they can even follow a lightened Ay and do the necessary things to prevent him which isn't the case. Add Gai and Minato to make the work easier, there's no issue especially once Minato has Susano'o and his teammates tagged. Makes this far more easier for Ay just that Minato doesn't need to go with him necessarily if he's tagged

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They don't need to follow Ay's speed to do anything. They'd need to follow his speed in order to block the initial blow, but not successive blows and I hope you aren't going to try and argue otherwise. Ay's speed is Shunshin. If he dashes to them and hits them and doesn't put a scratch on it he'll have to create distance in order to approach them again at top speed. While that happens Nagato/Itachi/Kabuto counter with one of the various game ending methods they have.

Minato and Gai's help does nothing unless they have a way to bust through Susanoo, which they do not. Tagging also doesn't help them break past Susanoo, just evade certain attacks, but Hiraishin is countered by these 3 as well so that's a fail for Team Speed too.

Idk why we're even talking about this. Ay's best feat is putting a hole in a V2 Susanoo. He'd need multiple punches at once or in very quick succession if he wanted to break through Susanoo by himself, which he can't do due to the nature of his speed (which adds power to his punch) and the nature of how he's achieving said strength. I could punch a brick wall for hours and still never break it since my initial punch can't damage it at all.

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No reason as to why we'll be seeing that here. It would harm/drain his life force as a matter of fact.

The Rinnegan itself is the power of Uchiha and Senju, so there is no issue here. The Mazo only drains your life force when the Soul Dragon is used. Pain has summoned the Mazo multiple times in order to seal the Bijuu so there's no reason why the act of summoning it would drain his life force.

-Gedo Mazo is overkill.
-Manda II is overkill. Manda took part of C0 and lived a little while afterwards. This team has no raw firepower that'd outright kill it, and they won't be able to wear him down when he's supported by Kabuto, Itachi and Nagato.
-They can't breach Susanoo. Gai's cap is a V3 Susanoo. Ay has only punched a hole in V2. Itachi has a V4, with Yata in scenario 2. Gai could use as many Hirudora as he wanted to in S2 and never even scratch Susanoo due to Yata's ability to repel jutsu. The only way he'd bust through is if he could use two at the same time, which he cannot.
-Shinra Tensei can't be anticipated, nor can they tank anything on the level of what put down the boss toads or above.
-White Rage sets them up for death.
-As Mellanoma mentioned Sawarabi no Mai can mess up their footing, meanwhile Kabuto has all of Kimi's powers thus can fuse with the bones for sneak attacks on the two who are not sensors.

Team Speed literally doesn't stand a chance. The only ways they can win are:

-Blitzing and killing all 3 of them before Susanoo can go up, which is impossible from 50 meters.
-Busting through Susanoo before Kabuto and Nagato can launch an offensive, which is impossible when they can barely destroy the lower levels of Susanoo.

 

[MightGai]

You're not understanding my point. The summons don't have to move anywhere. Their sole purpose is to remain in a position, where they can provide an shared vision of the entire matchup's location, which allows Nagato to coordinate Team Speed's movements and react to them proficiently along with his superb sensing. Rinnegan shared vision > speed is canon.

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[/IMG]

KCM Naruto > 7 Gates Gai/Ay in speed.




> Check chapter 610: Jubi revival. Kurama rejuvenated Gai and was later healed by Sakura's. Gai's only max usage of Hirudora is one by canon, and I'll give him two out of generosity because not like Hirudora is doing anything.

> Summoning Jutsu is a space-time like FTG, so it's obviously instant; it only needs one hand-seal which is faster than Hirduora. Shinra Tensei manipulates gravity, and gravitational waves travel at light speed, so while ST is not instant, it's virtually instant and is by tons of times faster than Hirduora.

> A hand movement isn't necessary for ST. [

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]

> You're overrating Hirduora. It's not fast as you claim. It starts as a punch, a wind pressure is released, the wind starts spiralling, takes in a form of a tiger and it explodes. All of that process took short time that Kisame, whose not an expert in Taijutsu, was able to match at equal time it took for Gai. It doesn't pack any noteworthy shockwave implying it's breaching ST's defense, when it couldn't kill Kisame at direct hit (mind you, air pressure underwater is stronger than outside it) and that's the same Kisame who can be killed by a pencil. A base defensive ST could disintegrate an SM FRS. Hirudora isn't doing shit, and it's easily repelled by ST. Konoha's intel that is fully aware of Gai's full power stated Taijutsu could not work on Nagato, which Gai himself agreed to.

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You're making it seem that Team Speed is going to constantly move every second to prevent being pulled by BT. The moment there is a stop on any of them, Nagato will pull them at that moment then kills them with Human Path. KCM Naruto is faster than V2 Ay whom is faster than 7 Gates Gai. That's canon fact. V2 was the fastest character by author's statement, until KCM Naruto showed up and dodged his full speed, so KCM Naruto is by default faster than 7 Gates Gai, who was not considered fastest character. KCM Naruto could not blitz a Rinnegan shared vision, so nothing implies Gai is doing anything better, when he's slower.

You're only right about lightened Ay, but that's not a factor since lightened Ay couldn't outright blitz ET Madara, so there is no reason to believe he's blitzing Nagato. Lightened Ay only landed a blow on Madara, because Mei blocked his vision via Hidden Mist. Nagato can sense and is able to fly, meaning Lightened Ay isn't getting any chance to blitz him while he's on air.

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You're basically implying Minato can throw a kunai across a mountain range worth of distance, when even given prep time he hasn't shown the feat to throw it further than what CT can collect. You need to prove Minato's strength feats. Again, look at how big CT is:

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Its gravitational pull will pull every area Minato can mark by feats, and prevents anyone from moving in its gravity range as stated by Itachi.

I will try to keep this short since I've already been on endless discussions and I got a bit old for that.

Picture this: chameleon, cerberus, bird summons (since Nagato cannot walk in that state, it's needed for him to move) have shared vision. Add the heads of Shurado if you want to Nagato so all of them can see everything. Ay goes straight to the bird, not even from one side, or the rear, just straight. How is the bird dodging that?. I'm sure all 5 sets of eyes will see Ay going for the bird, so how is the bird going to be faster than a lightened Ay and dodge the attack?. It's not about sensing or reacting to the attack, it's about having the speed to actually dodge the attack (as Lee explained to Sasuke).

As for the speed feat, you're saying since it was said that Ay was the fastest shinobi, and KCM Naruto dodged Ay, KCM Naruto = fastest shinobi alive or something among those lines? Cause else I'm not understanding what a thrown sword or the other scan has to do with anything.

Summoning Jutsu is more than one hand sign: Boar → Dog → Bird → Monkey → Ram. And not because it's a space-time ninjutsu, it would be instant. Kamui, as used by Kakashi, or when Obito tries to absorb something besides himself are not instant either.

If we asume Hirudora's end is a sonic boom of manga proportions, then it has to be faster than sound (based on the description of the technique). At any rate, already moving that much wind pressure would be ilogical at a lower speed. It doesn't have to breach ST, it has to kill Nagato's summon to render him immobile, thats all. Gai agreed to what??

Don't have to, they have to move just enough to rip Nagato's head off. Also, BT doesn't restrict movement either (or at least Kakashi was able to throw a chain to held the effects of the gravitational pull), so if he pulls Gai, he can smash him with a Hirudora next to his face (since we haven't seen Nagato use BT + another technique simultaneously as far as I remember). Again, we're talking about decrepit Nagato here, he won't be surviving a point blank attack that took Kisame down for the fight. What proof did A have to claim that he was the fastest shinobi btw?, because if that's what the speed ranking is based upon this parts, it's shaky at its best. Not saying he's slow, just doubting that just cause he claims he's the fastest shinobi, he automatically is.

No, I'm saying that he can use the chakra hands to move (not necessarily throw) a marked kunai away from the core, then teleport to it. Repeating that as long as needed, he can escape the pull in short bursts (and if he touches the other 2 with the chakra hands, he's pulling them with him).

 

[Haizaki]

@KG before I fully rebuttal which might take a while, when did Kisame react to AT?