Ending the borrowed powers card

[Guntah]

you mentioned the cursed seal in the context of sasuke having assistance in the fights he used it even though its a power-up he uses. i said nothing about it not being borrowed power, my gripe comes from the absurd claim that deidara or oro were not beaten by sasuke on his own because he made use of the seal and that is something a clown would say. Boruto is making use of the seal momo gave him to fight kawaki, i guess he is not fighting on his own lmao FOH with that shit.

Well, in this case, I am judging Sasuke in the same context as Naruto, and if Naruto draws on the Kyuubi's chakra, its considered asistence, while if Sasuke draws on the Cursed Seal's power, its apparenyl not. I wonder why? Maybe, as I already said, this whole concept is full of shit and unappliable for this series...but probably not.

Yes am betting on him going for naruto first because... thats exactly what happened in canon? Lmao you have no point.

....and Sai prevented that by blocking the stab. :|

Just because he went after Naruto in the beginning of the fight, doesn't mean he's gonna target him for the rest of it. In fact, Sasuke showed himself to be very open as to who he tries killing in that fight.

 

[King Of Pop]

=Guntah;21245602]Well, in this case, I am judging Sasuke in the same context as Naruto, and if Naruto draws on the Kyuubi's chakra, its considered asistence, while if Sasuke draws on the Cursed Seal's power, its apparenyl not. I wonder why? Maybe, as I already said, this whole concept is full of shit and unappliable for this series...but probably not.

Dont care about naruto (if you noticed i have mentioned nothing about him). sasuke fought deidara and oro 1 vs 1 and defeated them thus they are fights he won on his own. period. meaning your initial claim of him having someone else assistance is wrong

=Guntah;21234588]You are aware that Sasuke himself has not won a single proper fight without someone else's help since his fight with Gaara back in the Chunin Exams, no? Its not a much better position for him to be in, if I do say so myself.

....and Sai prevented that by blocking the stab. :|

What does that have to do with the fact that sasuke targetted naruto first thus your statement of him not logically doing so in a hypothetical scenario is null and void?

Just because he went after Naruto in the beginning of the fight, doesn't mean he's gonna target him for the rest of it. In fact, Sasuke showed himself to be very open as to who he tries killing in that fight.

there is no going to be "rest of the the fight" because when sasuke attacks him at the start is when naruto dies as he would diced in two. sasuke shunshins and slashes him. simple as that

Yes and naruto was the one he was going to kill first.

 

[Guntah]

Dont care about naruto (if you noticed i have mentioned nothing about him). sasuke fought deidara and oro 1 vs 1 and defeated them thus they are fights he won on his own. period. meaning your initial claim of him having someone else assistance is wrong

Congratulations. Yet, he used a borrowed power, thus by the definition I've decided to go by, assistance.

What does that have to do with the fact that sasuke targetted naruto first thus your statement of him not logically doing so in a hypothetical scenario is null and void?

there is no going to be "rest of the the fight" because when sasuke attacks him at the start is when naruto dies as he would diced in two. sasuke shunshins and slashes him. simple as that

Yes and naruto was the one he was going to kill first.

Well, you obviously have no idea what we're talking about. I don't really see how a scenario where an already started fight continues could be rewritten in the first place, but whatever makes you happy.

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

Not many, really. Kiba, Mizuki...Kakuzu? I think?

Now, lets see your arguments on Sasuke's fights.



Okay, because they failed the mission means...they lost a fight? By that logic the Sasuke retrieval mission was a success. I mean, sure, Sasuke wasn't brought back, but Konoha managed to get more wins, so that's something, right? The answer is no. That makes no sense. The fight was interrupted before it could even go somewhere, so no. Orochimaru and Deidara also required the Cursed Seal to beat, and the Cursed Seal is as borrowed a power as borrowed powers get. Danzo might have been on the verge of death, that's right, but Karin healed him before he tried to sacrifice himself and take Sasuke with him. Obito himself said that it was a close call, even with a healed Sasuke, so I highly doubt a wounded Sasuke would've survived that.



No. He let himself be beat up for Sasuke's sake.

Would've liked to see how well Sasuke would've handled himself in a longer battle though.Oh, he would definitely do something stupid...like, say, kill Sakura. But I'm sure he could handle a four...excuse me, SIX tailed Naruto going for his head. No biggie.

Their aim was to capture Sasuke if needed, Sasuke attacked. They got their asses kicked.

Orochimaru and Deidara were Solo wins. You know this, so now you're taking away the Curse Seal because it's not his natural power. Sasuke trained til he felt that he reached the level to where he could defeat Itachi. Then he faced Orochimaru, then Deidara when hunting him. If he never had the Curse Seal then obviously he would have still trained til he felt that he could defeat Itachi, then faced them. We don't know what Sasuke would have developed in place of the Curse Seal. So you can't say with certainty that without it he couldn't have defeated them.

No, the Cursed Seal is not another entity that helps him, but if you're using that argument, then you're full of shit. Because by that logic, Kurama was not a borrowed power up until Naruto was linked with it and started receiving advice, the Hashirama face in Madara's chest though almost explicitly refered as such is not borrowed power because it did not provide advice and the Juubi itself powering up Juubito or Juubidara is not a borrowed power because, guess what, no advice. In other words, that's a stupid argument and you should feel bad about it.

Before KCM Naruto could only use the Kyuubi's power whenever the Kyuubi decided to give him some. If Naruto tapped into it's power and used it himself (KCM) then that's Naruto working solo. Not having someone else actively helping him.

 

[Guntah]

Their aim was to capture Sasuke if needed, Sasuke attacked. They got their asses kicked.

Well, seeing as the battle never ended, or went anywhere for a matter of fact, its a bit more complicated than that.

Orochimaru and Deidara were Solo wins. You know this, so now you're taking away the Curse Seal because it's not his natural power. Sasuke trained til he felt that he reached the level to where he could defeat Itachi. Then he faced Orochimaru, then Deidara when hunting him. If he never had the Curse Seal then obviously he would have still trained til he felt that he could defeat Itachi, then faced them. We don't know what Sasuke would have developed in place of the Curse Seal. So you can't say with certainty that without it he couldn't have defeated them.

That argument is quite confusing. So, let me see if I get this right. You're telling me that if Sasuke didn't have access to the Curse Mark's power, that battle would not have happened, and thus gauging what would have happened in that battle is pointless. Except Sasuke probably would have lost to Orochimaru when the latter tried taking his body in the case, since the fact that he lacks a Curse Mark doesn't change the fact that Oro needed a body in three years time, and would've tried snatching from Sasuke regardless of Curse Mark. But that's not the main problem with that argument, the main problem is that I could literally make the same argument for every single fight Naruto has ever had regarding Kurama, so what is the point, even?

Before KCM Naruto could only use the Kyuubi's power whenever the Kyuubi decided to give him some. If Naruto tapped into it's power and used it himself (KCM) then that's Naruto working solo. Not having someone else actively helping him.

How does that make any sense? The only difference in between Naruto and Sasuke in this case is that in Naruto's case there is someone regulating whether he gets or doesn't get the power while Sasuke just takes it from the Cursed Seal. Same analogy could be made for taking chakra from the Kyuubi and using KCM.

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

Well, seeing as the battle never ended, or went anywhere for a matter of fact, its a bit more complicated than that.



That argument is quite confusing. So, let me see if I get this right. You're telling me that if Sasuke didn't have access to the Curse Mark's power, that battle would not have happened, and thus gauging what would have happened in that battle is pointless. Except Sasuke probably would have lost to Orochimaru when the latter tried taking his body in the case, since the fact that he lacks a Curse Mark doesn't change the fact that Oro needed a body in three years time, and would've tried snatching from Sasuke regardless of Curse Mark. But that's not the main problem with that argument, the main problem is that I could literally make the same argument for every single fight Naruto has ever had regarding Kurama, so what is the point, even?



How does that make any sense? The only difference in between Naruto and Sasuke in this case is that in Naruto's case there is someone regulating whether he gets or doesn't get the power while Sasuke just takes it from the Cursed Seal. Same analogy could be made for taking chakra from the Kyuubi and using KCM.

- It was easy to understand. I was saying that without the Curse Seal Sasuke still would have trained til he felt that he had become strong enough to kill Itachi. Meaning he would basically be at the same level he was without the Curse Seal. He still would have fought Orochimaru after he was done training.

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Then Deidara on his search for Itachi. But you can't say he would have loss without the Curse Seal because we don't know what he would have developed if he never had it.

- The Kyuubi & Curse Seal aren't their natural powers, but Sasuke controls the Curse Seal & draws forth it's power himself. Thus him using it is Solo. Whereas Naruto at the time could only use the Kyuubi's power whenever the Kyuubi decided to give him some. He needed his assistance, so it's not a solo.

A solo is when one character beats another by him or herself. Not beating someone with only their natural powers.

 

[Guntah]

- It was easy to understand. I was saying that without the Curse Seal Sasuke still would have trained til he felt that he had become strong enough to kill Itachi. Meaning he would basically be at the same level he was without the Curse Seal. He still would have fought Orochimaru after he was done training.

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Then Deidara on his search for Itachi. But you can't say he would have loss without the Curse Seal because we don't know what he would have developed if he never had it.

No, I get the argument itself, its just that the point you're trying to make with it that confuses me. Okay, if he didn't have the Cursed Seal, the fight with Deidara would have not happened. It doesn't change the fact that he used it to defeat Deidara and, in a hypothetical situation, if he had no access to it during the fight, his ass would be grass.

- The Kyuubi & Curse Seal aren't their natural powers, but Sasuke controls the Curse Seal & draws forth it's power himself. Thus him using it is Solo. Whereas Naruto at the time could only use the Kyuubi's power whenever the Kyuubi decided to give him some. He needed his assistance, so it's not a solo.

A solo is when one character beats another by him or herself. Not beating someone with only their natural powers.

Yeah.

Sasuke is not all that much more deserving of credit in that situation though, so I do not see the point in distinguishing between both, which is still a point I want to convey.

 

[NarutoX28]

Ashura by definition is someone who depends on others and accepts the helping hand when given in order to succeed in life. In that sense, one can argue that Naruto by nature has borrowed more power and Hagoromo's assimilation of Naruto to Ashura made that connection rather clear for the reader as well. Sasuke on the other-hand, is likened to Indra who primarily relies on his own power to succeed which means by nature, he depends more on his power and thereby demands less power in return. Enumerating the power-ups that Sasuke has received and simply coming to the conclusion that Sasuke has borrowed more power might seem appropriate, but is actually a mirage.

The common example that's presented is the Cursed Seal which can't really be deemed that much of a borrowed power because not only is it contingent on the user's own chakra by forcibly releasing more of it, but the Cursed Seal was not responsible for Sasuke's growth to begin with. Even Orochimaru commends Sasuke for his improvements based on

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which debunked many of the erroneous claims characters made of Sasuke borrowing power in the first place. If Kishimoto wanted to depict Sasuke as one who prospered from other people's power, he would not have gone so far to debunk these aforementioned erroneous claims, nor would he have had Sasuke abhor Orochimaru for his over reliance on other people's power.

Kishimoto never made out Sasuke to be the one who was dependent on others esp. more than Naruto, that's honestly a vacuous claim that should not be entertained.

 

[unknownvillain1254]

Using the Nine-Tails for everything is a cop-out and naturally makes the reader question the skill of Naruto without the Nine-tails.

The nine tail was naruto it get out house free card just like the shrigan is sasuke get out of jail free card

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

No, I get the argument itself, its just that the point you're trying to make with it that confuses me. Okay, if he didn't have the Cursed Seal, the fight with Deidara would have not happened. It doesn't change the fact that he used it to defeat Deidara and, in a hypothetical situation, if he had no access to it during the fight, his ass would be grass.



Yeah.

Sasuke is not all that much more deserving of credit in that situation though, so I do not see the point in distinguishing between both, which is still a point I want to convey.

I clearly said that he would fight Deidara if he didn't have it since Deidara would still attack him when he's looking for Itachi.

The Curse Seal significantly negatively effected him until he mastered it, gaining perfect control. Something no one else had done. He incoporated it into his fighting style for years. Obviously if he never had it then all the time he spent honing it would have gone to something else.

You can't just assume he would lose since you don't know what he would have developed if he never recieved the Curse Seal.

There's a big difference between the two. One was wielded alone, the other wasn't. Sasuke fought alone, Naruto didn't. Sasuke solo'd, Naruto didn't. That simple.

The nine tail was naruto it get out house free card just like the shrigan is sasuke get out of jail free card

Difference being Sasuke is in control of [his] Sharingan whilst Naruto wasn't with the Kyuubi.

 

[Guntah]

I clearly said that he would fight Deidara if he didn't have it since Deidara would still attack him when he's looking for Itachi.

The Curse Seal significantly negatively effected him until he mastered it, gaining perfect control. Something no one else had done. He incoporated it into his fighting style for years. Obviously if he never had it then all the time he spent honing it would have gone to something else.

You can't just assume he would lose since you don't know what he would have developed if he never recieved the Curse Seal.

There's a big difference between the two. One was wielded alone, the other wasn't. Sasuke fought alone, Naruto didn't. Sasuke solo'd, Naruto didn't. That simple.

We are talking about battles that Sasuke won without asistance. Throwing in a hypothetical Sasuke trained without Cursed Seal doesn't change the fact that he used it when fighting Deidara. And Sasuke learning to control the Cursed Seal is yet another parallel that could be added to Naruto, as the majority of his three years of training was spent learning to use that chakra. That said, I still don't see why Sasuke deserves more credit than Naruto, pushing aside the entire principle of "soloing".