Madara vs Hagoromo

[V h o]

Hugo lacks feats

 

[SixPathsMike101]

You haven't provided any reasoning for me to believe Hagoromo is stronger. Naturally having the powers means nothing since they both have them regardless.

Well, he has SIMILAR powers, but he hasnt achieved the full power of the sage, as you seem to beleive. The scale is just larger

 

[Holy God]

Well, he has SIMILAR powers, but he hasnt achieved the full power of the sage, as you seem to beleive. The scale is just larger

And what exactly points you to believe he doesn't have the "full" power of Hagoromo when Madara's cloak is closer to Kaguya's than his is?

 

[Scryed]

I've already addressed that in the thread.

Spoiler

When Hagoromo said Madara was approaching his power, he was talking about himself without the Ten-Tails

This is completely wrong and selective reading. The only evidence for this is that he was talking in present tense and thus must have been talking about himself as a spirit.

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Justifying this by saying she was the Ten-Tails and consequently was alive is useless. Hagoromo did not know about that, thus he thought she was dead. This proves he was talking about their most powerful forms when alive.

Exactly my point. Hagoromo didn't gain as much as Madara. What Hagoromo had before becoming a host is rendered irrelevant when Madara gains the same thing after becoming one. My point is that Madara has everything Hagoromo has and more.



Tailed Beasts still regenerate chakra, so it doesn't matter if he shared it out. Also, Hagoromo did not make the moon on his deathbed. He made it when he and Hamura defeated Kaguya. The only difference between Madara and Hagoromo is half of Kurama, which isn't much in the long run, but I guess it's something.

He was trying to get close to their power. Hagoromo and Kaguya are not on the same league. He was trying to get close to their power and succeeded in reaching Hagoromo. Hagoromo's power is Rinnegan and RSM as a non-JJ. That's something Madara acquired as a JJ. Becoming a JJ would still amplify Hagoromo's power. There is no way he wouldn't become more powerful as a JJ. The abilities might remain the same with the exception of a few added ones but his already existing abilities will gain a massive powerup.

Just acquiring the RinneSharingan won't automatically let you reach Kaguya's power. Madara lacked the chakra to use some of its abilities and couldn't contain the chakra in his body either. When it comes to Kaguya's power, the amount of chakra matters since it amplifies your power even more. Kaguya's peak would be before giving birth to her sons since her chakra was divided amongst them which is why she was trying to reacquire it.

Bijuus regenerate chakra but not infinitely. They have a certain amount of chakra they can contain. The same goes for the Juubi since it had considerably less chakra than Kaguya did when she first showed up. Their chakra does not increase past the amount their bodies can contain. They can't have ever increasing chakra. Hagoromo shared the Juubi's chakra with humanity before creating the Bijuu from its remaining reserves. Otherwise, the Juubi Obito and Madara had would've had Kaguya's amount of chakra.

 

[NarutoX28]

Well yes. This is all obviously guesswork since Holy Madara and Host Hagoromo have very limited feats. The real point though is that Madara has shown able to use Bloodline Limits he otherwise wouldn't have naturally, which shows some proficiency in it. I would even argue that utilizing the Tailed Beasts' chakra isn't even actually a feat of the Sage Mode since anyone with their chakra can utilize their abilities, such as regular hosts.

Rikudou Senjutsu is the aggregation of all of the Bijuu, so I would most certainly include usage of Bijuu KKG given the scope of the argument. That being said, I agree that he can use them since you proved it via interpolation, but he has not shown proficiency on the level that Naruto has; exhibiting preeminent chakra control via FRS and advancing that by combining it with Bijuu KKG formed in a sphere. This is far more advanced than anything Madara can accomplish on his lonesome and there's nothing dictating that he can use such power with extraordinary finesse like Naruto did.

When did Hagoromo use Six Paths Planetary Devastation by himself? The Databook explains the only occurrence is when defeating Kaguya alongside Hamura. Afterwards, Hamura and other Ootsutsuki lived out their lives guarding the moon and Hagoromo stayed on Earth.

He was knowledgeable enough to obtain both the Yin and Yang Seals and has an adequate amount of chakra to accomplish the task. Hagoromo being dependent on his brother was well before Hagoromo spent years bettering himself with the Juubi's chakra.

I'm not denying he couldn't control the chakra. However, the issue lies in why he couldn't control the chakra, and that is Black Zetsu who factually removed control from Madara's body.

I wholeheartedly disagree mostly because Sasuke's statement connotes that it was due to Madara's own limitations, not Black Zetsu.

I'm aware Madara hasn't shown the amount of proficiency in Sage techniques as the others have, so I can't necessarily prove he has this power, but certainly my belief isn't baseless. Though, my purpose was never to convince you Madara did indeed have a stronger Six Paths Sage Mode, I was initially just saying Naruto's feats weren't very special.

Naruto's aren't very special compared to a man who can invoke Chibaku Tensei independently and a goddess who not only contained chakra levels outstripping the Juubi, but continued to muster a Gudoudama that nearly wasted an entire dimension. These feats surpasses RSM Naruto's, but Naruto's in turn surpasses Madara whilst using Rikudou Sage Mode in terms of finesse.

 

[Holy God]

He was trying to get close to their power. Hagoromo and Kaguya are not on the same league. He was trying to get close to their power and succeeded in reaching Hagoromo. Hagoromo's power is Rinnegan and RSM as a non-JJ. That's something Madara acquired as a JJ. Becoming a JJ would still amplify Hagoromo's power. There is no way he wouldn't become more powerful as a JJ. The abilities might remain the same with the exception of a few added ones but his already existing abilities will gain a massive powerup.

You're describing one of the points I made in the thread. Yes, Hagoromo's powers increase, but I believe you and I come to a disagreement on the amount. I'm thinking of fixed values. For example if you were to take someone (A) who never had Six Paths Sage Mode and someone (B) who already has it with Naruto's method, and give them both the Ten-Tails, B is not going to have double the power, but will gain a new Six Paths Sage Mode that has power equal to A's. The modes don't stack so having it before really doesn't mean anything. It will just upgrade you to what the Ten-Tails offers.

Just acquiring the RinneSharingan won't automatically let you reach Kaguya's power. Madara lacked the chakra to use some of its abilities and couldn't contain the chakra in his body either. When it comes to Kaguya's power, the amount of chakra matters since it amplifies your power even more. Kaguya's peak would be before giving birth to her sons since her chakra was divided amongst them which is why she was trying to reacquire it.

It allows you to reach her power with the absorption of everyone elses chakra. The only reason he couldn't contain it was because Black Zetsu took control of his body. Even Kaguya couldn't control the chakra for a while when Naruto used Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken. Also, Kaguya didn't try to take back the chakra until Hagoromo and Hamura started to share it with people. If she was just hogging it they'd be killed as children.

Bijuus regenerate chakra but not infinitely. They have a certain amount of chakra they can contain. The same goes for the Juubi since it had considerably less chakra than Kaguya did when she first showed up. Their chakra does not increase past the amount their bodies can contain. They can't have ever increasing chakra. Hagoromo shared the Juubi's chakra with humanity before creating the Bijuu from its remaining reserves. Otherwise, the Juubi Obito and Madara had would've had Kaguya's amount of chakra.

Yes, I know you only regenerate until you've reached your peak again. The Ten-Tails did have the amount of chakra Kaguya used to have (excluding half of Kurama). She was more powerful in the war from absorbing people's chakra. I think you believe all chakra in the world is from the Ten-Tails? This is wrong however. For example, take Kaguya and her sons. Kaguya's chakra wasn't actually split or lowered when she gave birth to them. Mothers don't become permanently weaker when they give birth. That means as adults, their chakra combined with Kaguya's is more than what Kaguya herself has. As people with chakra are born, more chakra is brought into the world that came from themselves instead of the Ten-Tails.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

You're not alive until you have a body. Chiyo had to give her own life to bring someone back. The same with Rinne Rebirth and Impure World Resurrection to instill life in a body. Even then though, the latter doesn't make the target actually alive shown by Madara couldn't become a host. Hagoromo did not bring anyone back thus it required no sacrifice.

Impure resurrection is undead and rinne rebirth restores your soul to the already existing body. What hagormoo did was is restore the souls of the kages in an astral body. Because if they were dead they would not be visible to everybody in the real world.

The Uchiha have Yin Style, not Six Paths chakra. Do you really think all descendants of Kaguya have Six Paths chakra? Yes, diluted chakra exists and you've already partly admitted to it. If chakra didn't change and dilute, then everyone would have the same chakra: Kaguya's. If you agree they don't, then you agree people have different chakra and it changes through genetics.

Well wrong. If you look at the arrow in spoiler/image you'll see it says Six paths, meaning from hagoromoo itself. If you read the underline part you'll see that it's not only six paths but it's six path energy not chakra. It's when physical energy and mental energy comes together that it becomes chakra. Top left of the scan it says six paths mental energy and physical energy is yin yang release.

Spoiler

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And as for diluted it's not true. Chakra goes through changes depending on the genetic changes.
Example Naruto. Naruto's chakra consistof kushina, minato, ashura, and kyuubi equaling naruto. So it's not diluted it just co existing within naruto.

Yes, Sage chakra is just natural energy combined with your own chakra, but that doesn't mean all forms are the same. It's the reason why Naruto and Kabuto don't have the same Sage Mode. Six Paths Sage Mode is a bit different in this regard, but there are still varying forms depending on the chakra you have. Minato sensed more Six Paths power in Madara and consequently his form appeared closer to Kaguya than Obito's did. Furthermore, after absorbing the Holy Tree he appeared even closer than Hagoromo did. It's why Kaguya is faster than Naruto despite them having the same mode. Also, you appear to be mixing the terms a bit. Sage Mode and Sage Technique (senjutsu) are not the same thing if you didn't know.

Six path Sage chakra is all the same. It's a senjutsu that consist of all 9 biju chakra together with natural energy. Otherwise every other sagemode user would use the same senjutsu as each other which is not the case.
Minato sensed Six path chakra more in Madara than Obito but not being closer to kaguya, Minato doesn't even know what a kaguya is in the first place. Hagormoo already said that with the jyubi (Holy tree) he was getting closer to hagormoo himself and is trying to reach Kaguya.

Yes, it can refer to physical strength. It has also been referred to as ability, where for example the Mangekyou Sharingan's third power is Susano'o. Referring to a person as a whole makes sense to for comparison values, such as if one person is more powerful than another.

This is not making much sense here and I've only seen in the manga that power refers to Chakra or Energy. Obito said power is chakra that connects two worlds while in another Yin power was referred to as Physical energy. So where you got physical strength is nothing but an assumption not stated in the manga.

Incorrect. Madara and Hashirama themselves do have diluted chakra, but the exact chakra of Indra and Ashura cling to them, which is verified when Kaguya checked them. Combined it comes out to Hagoromo's. The only reason he doesn't have Six Paths Sage Mode from this is because he never trained for it, and thus can't collect nature energy.

Well no. You don't train to gain Six path Sage mode because I've never seen naruto even train for it or know how to train for it let alone even know what Six path Sage mode really is to begin with, yet he still got it. It's not diluted that term is fanfiction, chakra simply co exist with one another within the same person. If Madara's chakra was diluted when genetically combined with Hashirama, he wouldn't be able to use mokuton (senju part) or Susanoo (uchiha part) because diluted chakra cannot perform techniques that are pure uchiha or pure senju.

The fact that he separated chakra and power shows that it can refer to different things.

Well powers refer to the ocular chakra abilities the eyes are capable of doing, and jutsus require chakra so I'm still baffled but what point you're trying to prove.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Damn this is one of the most useless thread I seen in a while.

And 'someone' just think he was doing right thing.

 

[NarutoX28]

Damn this is one of the most useless thread I seen in a while.

And 'someone' just think he was doing right thing.

This is actually the best thread I've seen here in ages tbh.

 

[Ansatsuken]

This is actually the best thread I've seen here in ages tbh.

Okey :kd:

 

[Warlocks]

coat = reality warping so so6p wins
2 eye rinnagan jj madara may be =to Non-JJ Hagoromo
but JJ Hagoromo> jj madara with 3rd eye> Non-JJ Hagoromo>=2 eye rinnagan jj madara

 

[NarutoX28]

Okey :kd:

That should tell you that this forum went to shit. :elmo:

 

[Warlocks]

Truth Seeking Balls and Creation of all Things aren't the same. With TSB we see it negates all jutsu and erases what it touches. With CoaT we see it undo Edo Tensei and raise the souls of the dead with just a thought. Two totally different techniques and CoaT is far superior, it's reality warping.

not almost cuz

 

[Chaosmark101]

All I have to say is how in the world do you think Rinne Sharingan Madara matches or beats Jubi Jin Hagoromo when Madara was missing Yin Kurama and had some other bijuu chakra stolen from him by Obito.

Hagoromo had all of it.

 

[Liquid Snake]

Hago curbstomps he has the same power plus the bijuss will help him he has more chakra can seal by himself and has senjutsu which is madaras weakness not necessarily hagos weakness since he truly mastered senjutsu himself not like how madara had to steal his

 

[Liquid Snake]

You're describing one of the points I made in the thread. Yes, Hagoromo's powers increase, but I believe you and I come to a disagreement on the amount. I'm thinking of fixed values. For example if you were to take someone (A) who never had Six Paths Sage Mode and someone (B) who already has it with Naruto's method, and give them both the Ten-Tails, B is not going to have double the power, but will gain a new Six Paths Sage Mode that has power equal to A's. The modes don't stack so having it before really doesn't mean anything. It will just upgrade you to what the Ten-Tails offers.



It allows you to reach her power with the absorption of everyone elses chakra. The only reason he couldn't contain it was because Black Zetsu took control of his body. Even Kaguya couldn't control the chakra for a while when Naruto used Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken. Also, Kaguya didn't try to take back the chakra until Hagoromo and Hamura started to share it with people. If she was just hogging it they'd be killed as children.



Yes, I know you only regenerate until you've reached your peak again. The Ten-Tails did have the amount of chakra Kaguya used to have (excluding half of Kurama). She was more powerful in the war from absorbing people's chakra. I think you believe all chakra in the world is from the Ten-Tails? This is wrong however. For example, take Kaguya and her sons. Kaguya's chakra wasn't actually split or lowered when she gave birth to them. Mothers don't become permanently weaker when they give birth. That means as adults, their chakra combined with Kaguya's is more than what Kaguya herself has. As people with chakra are born, more chakra is brought into the world that came from themselves instead of the Ten-Tails.

U really make no sense and let me tell u why the fact that u said that giving someone who never had sage power and the bijuu and someone who already had sage power and the bijuu and give them the juubi it would equal the same and that's false actually hago separated the bijuu in him so he basically has the mode Naruto had against kaguya but with the same chakra as the juubi because unlike Naruto he actually had the full bodies of the bijuus in him plus he can seal madara cannot so hago is immortal as well as madara but hago can seal him also he can still absorb more senjutsu madara cannot because even with the juubi his body has its limits that's why he needed hashis power just like obito was weaker than madara much weaker and hago has the stronger body so that's another advantage hago is also naturally blessed coming straight from kaguya he could easily do anything madara is capable of at a higher scale because he has more chakra so basically hago wins mid to high diff

 

[Holy God]

Rikudou Senjutsu is the aggregation of all of the Bijuu, so I would most certainly include usage of Bijuu KKG given the scope of the argument. That being said, I agree that he can use them since you proved it via interpolation, but he has not shown proficiency on the level that Naruto has; exhibiting preeminent chakra control via FRS and advancing that by combining it with Bijuu KKG formed in a sphere. This is far more advanced than anything Madara can accomplish on his lonesome and there's nothing dictating that he can use such power with extraordinary finesse like Naruto did.

Yes, Six Paths Sage Mode is a product of the Tailed Beasts, but so is using their bloodline limits. It's not exactly from having the mode but rather their chakra. Even if we consider this though, I would rather classify that as skill rather than the ability of the Sage Mode itself.

He was knowledgeable enough to obtain both the Yin and Yang Seals and has an adequate amount of chakra to accomplish the task. Hagoromo being dependent on his brother was well before Hagoromo spent years bettering himself with the Juubi's chakra.

If we exclude the Databook saying it is a two-man technique, then sure Hagoromo has the potential to use it himself, but I would say so does anyone at or above Naruto and Sasuke's level who has both seals, since the technique doesn't seem chakra-taxing at all. One again though, I can't see the seals being a direct feature of Six Paths Sage Mode.

I wholeheartedly disagree mostly because Sasuke's statement connotes that it was due to Madara's own limitations, not Black Zetsu.

Sasuke's statement is only subjective from his point of view and in the sense that Madara himself was the one going to explode. It doesn't at all discredit Black Zetsu. Hagoromo did however say to Naruto that Madara should be stopped before the Chakra Fruit came to fruition, implying he could have managed Kaguya's level of chakra without trouble. Combining that with the Databook crediting him with the ability to absorb everyone's chakra, there's more to support Black Zetsu being the cause.

Naruto's aren't very special compared to a man who can invoke Chibaku Tensei independently and a goddess who not only contained chakra levels outstripping the Juubi, but continued to muster a Gudoudama that nearly wasted an entire dimension. These feats surpasses RSM Naruto's, but Naruto's in turn surpasses Madara whilst using Rikudou Sage Mode in terms of finesse.

If we go by feats correlating to the direct power of the Six Paths Sage Mode, I certainly cannot claim Madara's being more powerful as an absolute fact. If that is the only quarrel you have I can certainly remove it, but it specifically really doesn't have any influence on the main point of the thread.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

Yes, Six Paths Sage Mode is a product of the Tailed Beasts

was this ever stated in the manga or databook?

 

[Holy God]

was this ever stated in the manga or databook?

I don't believe so.

 

[Holy God]

Impure resurrection is undead and rinne rebirth restores your soul to the already existing body. What hagormoo did was is restore the souls of the kages in an astral body. Because if they were dead they would not be visible to everybody in the real world.

Hagoromo only brought the souls to the world, unlike Rinne Rebirth whereas life is instilled. Hagoromo didn't give them some sort of body. That's just how souls look as we can see in multiple instances, and people have always been able to see souls, as shown on multiple occasions.

Well wrong. If you look at the arrow in spoiler/image you'll see it says Six paths, meaning from hagoromoo itself. If you read the underline part you'll see that it's not only six paths but it's six path energy not chakra. It's when physical energy and mental energy comes together that it becomes chakra. Top left of the scan it says six paths mental energy and physical energy is yin yang release.

Spoiler

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The term "Six Paths" only comes up in that single instance, and that surely does not mean everything in the text is talking specifically about Six Paths chakra or energy.

And as for diluted it's not true. Chakra goes through changes depending on the genetic changes.
Example Naruto. Naruto's chakra consistof kushina, minato, ashura, and kyuubi equaling naruto. So it's not diluted it just co existing within naruto.

Not exactly. If children's chakra was just a combination of co-existing chakra, they would have all the bloodline limits (or more specifically chakra-based abilities), and obviously this isn't true, which means chakra changes and dilutes. Even for your specific example, Naruto. He doesn't have the signature Uzumaki chakra chains. Hagoromo and Hamura don't have the same eye techniques despite Kaguya being the only parent with chakra, meaning dilution.

Six path Sage chakra is all the same. It's a senjutsu that consist of all 9 biju chakra together with natural energy. Otherwise every other sagemode user would use the same senjutsu as each other which is not the case.
Minato sensed Six path chakra more in Madara than Obito but not being closer to kaguya, Minato doesn't even know what a kaguya is in the first place. Hagormoo already said that with the jyubi (Holy tree) he was getting closer to hagormoo himself and is trying to reach Kaguya.

Six Paths Sage chakra may all be the same (their not), but not all Six Paths Sage Modes are the same. I was talking about the appearance. Obito who had less Six Paths power looked less like Kaguya. Madara, who had the most after absorbing the Holy Tree, looked closest to Kaguya, even more so than Hagoromo. And no, Hagoromo was talking about before Madara had a second Rinnegan, the Holy Tree, or the RinneSharingan.

This is not making much sense here and I've only seen in the manga that power refers to Chakra or Energy. Obito said power is chakra that connects two worlds while in another Yin power was referred to as Physical energy. So where you got physical strength is nothing but an assumption not stated in the manga.

Already said power encapsulates many things. Chakra can be one of them. Going to need a visual of that Obito statement, because it doesn't make sense. I already gave you the proof of power referring to ability, as in the third power of the Mangekyou Sharingan. Obviously you can't say the third chakra, since that makes absolutely no sense.

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, Raikage refers to his physical strength as power. You can't replace power with chakra because increasing his speed isn't going to increase his chakra.

Well no. You don't train to gain Six path Sage mode because I've never seen naruto even train for it or know how to train for it let alone even know what Six path Sage mode really is to begin with, yet he still got it. It's not diluted that term is fanfiction, chakra simply co exist with one another within the same person. If Madara's chakra was diluted when genetically combined with Hashirama, he wouldn't be able to use mokuton (senju part) or Susanoo (uchiha part) because diluted chakra cannot perform techniques that are pure uchiha or pure senju.

Madara combined the chakra genetically, allowing him to use both. This is done scientifically and exactly, whereas with sexual reproduction, only select random genes are used for mixture. How do you expect Madara to use Six Paths Sage Mode when he doesn't have natural energy? He has to train to absorb it.

Well powers refer to the ocular chakra abilities the eyes are capable of doing, and jutsus require chakra so I'm still baffled but what point you're trying to prove.

This point just seems like denial now. He specifically separated power and chakra. They are not always interchangeable.