Madara vs Hagoromo

[Holy God]

Fact is, he has not exhibited the level of proficiency that Kaguya has, so assuming that Madara can effectively wield the Bijuu's Kekkei Genkai is extrapolation. Madara has the Shinju, so he should be able to accomplish such a feat, but his level of mastery over utilizing the Shinju's power denotes that we can't arbitrarily hand him feats just because he has that power.

Well yes. This is all obviously guesswork since Holy Madara and Host Hagoromo have very limited feats. The real point though is that Madara has shown able to use Bloodline Limits he otherwise wouldn't have naturally, which shows some proficiency in it. I would even argue that utilizing the Tailed Beasts' chakra isn't even actually a feat of the Sage Mode since anyone with their chakra can utilize their abilities, such as regular hosts.

But this does not discredit that Hagoromo was capable of utilizing COAT and had the ability to utilize Six Paths Chibaku Tensei on his lonesome. These are example that illustrate that Hagoromo's Six Path Sage Mode was more refined.

When did Hagoromo use Six Paths Planetary Devastation by himself? The Databook explains the only occurrence is when defeating Kaguya alongside Hamura. Afterwards, Hamura and other Ootsutsuki lived out their lives guarding the moon and Hagoromo stayed on Earth.

Madara's explosion was due to his inability to handle that chakra, Sasuke even clarifies this for the reader:

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I'm not denying he couldn't control the chakra. However, the issue lies in why he couldn't control the chakra, and that is Black Zetsu who factually removed control from Madara's body.

In comparison to Kaguya who could. Naruto, Kaguya, and Hagoromo have all accomplished feats that Madara has failed to accomplish using Rikudou Senjutsu. I'm going to need accomplishments demonstrated in the manga that would place Madara above Hagoromo and not sheer extrapolation.

My arguments cannot be judged yet his incompatibility with higher-end feats can somehow be judged by you? That's simply unfair honestly. The only way you can prove this notion is if there are pieces of information that imply that Madara can accomplish these feats and quite frankly, there are none. I'm not denying he can accomplish more because through interpolation, we can infer that Madara can accomplish feats that Juubito did as well as the Juubidama because that's a rather pragmatic approach, but extrapolating that Madara can accomplish these things without any basis for it is theoretical and baseless.

I'm aware Madara hasn't shown the amount of proficiency in Sage techniques as the others have, so I can't necessarily prove he has this power, but certainly my belief isn't baseless. Though, my purpose was never to convince you Madara did indeed have a stronger Six Paths Sage Mode, I was initially just saying Naruto's feats weren't very special.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

That does not mean they are living. Obito also returned from the pure land but he definitely wasn't alive.

Obito never returned or even went to the pure land, he was almost there but he told Rin to wait for him that she will go back with her. He was in purgatory and his chakra took possession of kakashi's body.
Hagormoo literally brought the souls from the afterlife into the real world. Why are you trying to argue that he wasn't when they specifically said he did?
And that's what rinne tensei does, return souls for the exchange of your own life. The only difference is that the kages didn't have a body while the leaf villagers did.

He doesn't have the Ten-Tails' chakra exactly is what I'm saying. He has some form of Six Paths Sage chakra genetically, but it isn't exactly the same as the Ten-Tails'. Similarly, the Uchiha have the Sharingan, but they don't have Indra's exact chakra. Kurama was set as a requirement for his summon only. It isn't actually a part of his chakra shown by how Madara didn't need it for him to awaken his chakra, and for the simple fact Kurama wasn't even a thing until way after his birth. And no, Hagoromo said the Ten-Tails allowed Madara to reach his own power, not his own chakra, and he previously stated he already had that from mixing genetics.

Wait what?
Six path sage mode was genetically retrieved from his mom was it not? Kaguya is the Jyuubi and the Uchiha's have the Six path Yin energy as the databook stated. That's what all Uchihas have in common, they have the chakra of Uchiha which allows them to awaken the sharingan.
And since you disagree with Hagormoo specifically saying that Madara is reaching his power by the jyubi since his transimgrant was up. Would you at least listen to what Madara and Obito said themselves?

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[UnknownJin]

-Hagoromo undoes Edo Tensei with a mere thought via CoaT
-Hagoromo raises souls of every Kage in history with a thought via CoaT
-While not even having a physical body.
-After giving all his power away to Naruto and Sasuke.
-Without even having any of his tailed beasts power

And you make this thread to try and convince people that Madara is superior to Alive Hagoromo, with all his own power, plus all the power of his tailed beast....

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lol man...

 

[maximusDGladiator]

Holy Madara vs Host Hagoromo


It's time to clear up some common and ignorant misconceptions about Hagoromo that have frequently come to deem him, and consequently his brother, as being more powerful than Madara.

_________________________________________​

Hagoromo is the original wielder of the Rinnegan and mastered it

Being the original wielder means absolutely nothing. Kaguya was the original wielder of the Byakugan and yet the Hyuuga clan have made better use of it. Furthermore, Hagoromo is not factually stated to have mastered the Rinnegan.

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Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a Bloodline Net (Kekkei Moura)

Being classified as a Bloodline Net simply means it came from the Holy Tree, just like being a Bloodline Limit would mean it came from genetics. It has absolutely no relation to his eyes' power.

Hagoromo uses Ninshuu which is stronger than Ninjutsu

Incorrect.

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It is absolutely inferior in battle to Ninjutsu (Ninja Techniques).

Hagoromo already had Six Paths Sage Mode before becoming a host

This means absolutely nothing as well. His natural Six Paths Sage Mode and that from the Ten-Tails will not stack because they are the same thing that use the same Six Paths Sage chakra. It does not make his attacks any stronger than Madara's who will have the same mode.

Hagoromo created the moon

No, he and his brother created the moon. Even then, it's not their prowess, but rather the natural size of the technique.

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Hagoromo and Hamura beat Kaguya themselves

No, they didn't. They beat the Ten-Tails by themselves. The Ten-Tails and Kaguya are vastly different, and considering the Ten-Tails' size, it would be far easier to seal it compared to her.

Hagoromo has Creation of All Things

This magnificent technique is said to create form and life from nothingness, and yet, the only time he's used it had him creating form (Tailed Beasts) from chakra.

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Naruto and Sasuke, whom were given power by and are weaker than Hagoromo, were defeating Madara

Literally nothing suggests Naruto and Sasuke together are weaker than Hagoromo. They are not just his halves either. They have powers (Sharingan and Tailed Beasts) that he doesn't. Also, the only hits they landed on Madara were due to Amenotejikara, a technique that Hagoromo doesn't have. Speaking of Madara, he wasn't even at full power.

When Hagoromo said Madara was approaching his power, he was talking about himself without the Ten-Tails

This is completely wrong and selective reading. The only evidence for this is that he was talking in present tense and thus must have been talking about himself as a spirit.

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Justifying this by saying she was the Ten-Tails and consequently was alive is useless. Hagoromo did not know about that, thus he thought she was dead. This proves he was talking about their most powerful forms when alive.

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Facts​

Madara's Six Paths Sage Mode is more powerful

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Madara's eyes are more powerful

Madara has three eye techniques: the Sharingan, Rinnegan, and RinneSharingan. Meanwhile, Hagoromo only has one.

Madara's chakra is more powerful

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Hagoromo uses six paths Juju and makes Madara vanish

 

[Scryed]

If anything, I consider Madara to have reached Non-JJ Hagoromo's level.

No way in hell he has reached JJ Hagoromo's level though. It's like implying Non-JJ Madara is at Non-JJ Hagoromo's level.

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

Madara dies due to Juubi extraction.

 

[Holy God]

Obito never returned or even went to the pure land, he was almost there but he told Rin to wait for him that she will go back with her. He was in purgatory and his chakra took possession of kakashi's body.
Hagormoo literally brought the souls from the afterlife into the real world. Why are you trying to argue that he wasn't when they specifically said he did?
And that's what rinne tensei does, return souls for the exchange of your own life. The only difference is that the kages didn't have a body while the leaf villagers did.

I don't remember ever reading about some sort of purgatory in the manga or Databook? Once you die your soul is sent to the pure land. The entire reason he could talk to Rin was because they were in the same place. The same thing with Kakashi and his father.

That's exactly my point. The souls weren't returned to life. They don't have a body. Even if this was somehow wrong, there's still the absolute fact that Hagoromo himself is a soul, so sacrificing himself isn't a problem at all since he's already dead.

Wait what?
Six path sage mode was genetically retrieved from his mom was it not? Kaguya is the Jyuubi and the Uchiha's have the Six path Yin energy as the databook stated. That's what all Uchihas have in common, they have the chakra of Uchiha which allows them to awaken the sharingan.
And since you disagree with Hagormoo specifically saying that Madara is reaching his power by the jyubi since his transimgrant was up. Would you at least listen to what Madara and Obito said themselves?

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You're not understanding what I'm saying. Everyone's chakra is different. Even people who are related have different chakra, and this can be explained through chakra signature/color. Uchiha have Indra's bloodline limit, but they don't all have the same chakra. Similarly, yes, Hagoromo's Six Paths Sage Mode is genetic, but that doesn't mean his chakra is exactly the same as the Ten-Tails. That would mean Hamura's is too, which would further mean his and Hagoromo's chakra are the same, and they obviously aren't since they have different bloodline limits.

I never disagreed with the notion that Madara said Hagoromo is trying to reach his power. You said Madara used the Ten-Tails to reach his chakra though, not power. I disagree with that.

 

[Holy God]

If anything, I consider Madara to have reached Non-JJ Hagoromo's level.

No way in hell he has reached JJ Hagoromo's level though. It's like implying Non-JJ Madara is at Non-JJ Hagoromo's level.

Hagoromo already admitted Madara was getting close to his power as a host. Also, what do you think Hagoromo gains from the Ten-Tails? He already had Six Paths Sage Mode, so he really is only getting chakra while Madara gets that and more from the Holy Tree.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

I don't remember ever reading about some sort of purgatory in the manga or Databook? Once you die your soul is sent to the pure land. The entire reason he could talk to Rin was because they were in the same place. The same thing with Kakashi and his father.

No he was not in the pure world.

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Dan did it to Tsunade before edo tenseo broke.

That's exactly my point. The souls weren't returned to life. They don't have a body. Even if this was somehow wrong, there's still the absolute fact that Hagoromo himself is a soul, so sacrificing himself isn't a problem at all since he's already dead.

The souls were returned from the afterworld to the real world, and in order to return ones soul for another requires death. Nobody can summon the souls from the afterlife not die not even Madara.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Everyone's chakra is different. Even people who are related have different chakra, and this can be explained through chakra signature/color. Uchiha have Indra's bloodline limit, but they don't all have the same chakra. Similarly, yes, Hagoromo's Six Paths Sage Mode is genetic, but that doesn't mean his chakra is exactly the same as the Ten-Tails. That would mean Hamura's is too, which would further mean his and Hagoromo's chakra are the same, and they obviously aren't since they have different bloodline limits.

Hamura has the same kekkai mora as his mother and his brother. You keep avoiding the obvious here. Hagoromoo's six path senjutsu is genetic, yes. But who did he genetically inherit it from? The juubi obviously.
The chakra signature doesn't have to be exactly the same but it is similar and the same blood. That's all there is to it. Indra has the same kekkai genkai and uchiha blood as every other uchiha within his clan.

I never disagreed with the notion that Madara said Hagoromo is trying to reach his power. You said Madara used the Ten-Tails to reach his chakra though, not power. I disagree with that.

Energy and chakra is power.

 

[Holy God]

No he was not in the pure world.

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Interesting. It doesn't deter from my point though.

The souls were returned from the afterworld to the real world, and in order to return ones soul for another requires death. Nobody can summon the souls from the afterlife not die not even Madara.

That's the problem here. Hagoromo summoned the souls, but he didn't give them life. Obito and Nagato infused the souls into bodies, which is exchanging life for life.

Hamura has the same kekkai mora as his mother and his brother. You keep avoiding the sentence. Hagoromoo's six path senjutsu is genetic. But who did they genetically inherit it from? The juubi obviously.
The chakra signature doesn't have to be exactly the same but it is similar and the same blood. That's all their is to it. Indra has the same kekkai genkai and uchiha blood as every other uchiha within his clan.

What? You can't have the same chakra but different chakra signature/color. You're saying Hagoromo and Hamura have the same chakra, but one has the Rinnegan and one has the Byakugan. That's nonsense.

Energy and chakra is power.

Sure, but power encapsulates a lot of things. When one refers to power they are not directly talking about chakra.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Interesting. It doesn't deter from my point though.

I mean point being is that he never left. It was purgatory.

That's the problem here. Hagoromo summoned the souls, but he didn't give them life. Obito and Nagato infused the souls into bodies, which is exchanging life for life.

They were alive with astral bodies but the point here is that the kage's were in the after life and now they are not. You can't cast a summoning jutsu or even show signs of consciousness/awareness if you are dead. And Madara cannot do that without taking his own life. Bringing the dead from the pure world is the power of the 7th pain, Gedo, manipulating life and death to your leisure.

What? You can't have the same chakra but different chakra signature/color. You're saying Hagoromo and Hamura have the same chakra, but one has the Rinnegan and one has the Byakugan. That's nonsense.

I said that they're chakra is not the exact same but it's still similar non the less. Both Hamura and Hagormoo utilize the senjutsu that comes from the jyubi itself. The juubi's chakra is an aggregation of all nine biju chakra. That's where six path sagemode comes from.
Hamura and Hagoromoo are both have kekkai mora like their mother and she has a sharingan and byukagan. So kekkai mora or even genkai's are more than just the ocular powers each person have, it's about the blood/chakra type they have.

That's why they have clan techniques that only specific clans can do.

Sure, but power encapsulates a lot of things. When one refers to power they are not directly talking about chakra.

Then what are you implying that "power" means in the manga? Because it only means two things in the naruto series, Chakra and Energy. Obviously they're talking about chakra because each juubi jinchuuriki that claimed they have six path power just finished absorbing a massive amount of chakra known as the 9 biju.

 

[Holy God]

They were alive with astral bodies but the point here is that the kage's were in the after life and now they are not. You can't cast a summoning jutsu or even show signs of consciousness/awareness if you are dead. And Madara cannot do that without taking his own life. Bringing the dead from the pure world is the power of the 7th pain, Gedo, manipulating life and death to your leisure.

Manipulating souls is the easy part though. Even Impure World Resurrection can do that. Hagoromo brought the souls, but they weren't given life and thus their original powers. That is the difference between what they did, and since it's so vast, they can't be compared.

I said that they're chakra is not the exact same but it's still similar non the less. Both Hamura and Hagormoo utilize the senjutsu that comes from the jyubi itself. The juubi's chakra is an aggregation of all nine biju chakra. That's where six path sagemode comes from.
Hamura and Hagoromoo are both have kekkai mora like their mother and she has a sharingan and byukagan. So kekkai mora or even genkai's are more than just the ocular powers each person have, it's about the blood/chakra type they have.

That's why they have clan techniques that only specific clans can do.

That was exactly my point. Nobody has the same chakra unless they have the same genetics. Hagoromo does not have the Ten-Tails' chakra naturally, but he has a diluted chakra that allows Six Paths Sage Mode. Just like no other Uchiha is born with Indra's Six Paths chakra, but they still have the Sharingan.

Then what are you implying that "power" means in the manga? Because it only means two things in the naruto series, Chakra and Energy. Obviously they're talking about chakra because each juubi jinchuuriki that claimed they have six path power just finished absorbing a massive amount of chakra known as the 9 biju.

Power has and can refer to physical strength, chakra, an ability, or the person as a whole, among other things. Hagoromo already said Madara awakened his chakra through mixing Ashura and Indra's chakra, so there is no getting closer to it because he already has it. Your specific example refers to the power the Ten-Tails gives. Power in this case refers to the various abilities, mainly Six Paths Sage Mode. Even Obito said the Rinnegan's chakra was too powerful, not the eye itself, showing an obvious split of usage.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Manipulating souls is the easy part though. Even Impure World Resurrection can do that. Hagoromo brought the souls, but they weren't given life and thus their original powers. That is the difference between what they did, and since it's so vast, they can't be compared.

Impure Resurrection requires life for one edo life and so did the resurrection technique Chiyo did for gaara. So no, manipulating souls is not that easy because it always requires one soul/life in exchange. And those historical kage's souls were alive in the real wolrd since they are no longer in the afterlife.

That was exactly my point. Nobody has the same chakra unless they have the same genetics. Hagoromo does not have the Ten-Tails' chakra naturally, but he has a diluted chakra that allows Six Paths Sage Mode. Just like no other Uchiha is born with Indra's Six Paths chakra, but they still have the Sharingan.

All Uchihas are born with Six path yin release as the manga and databook stated

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The only reason why the Uchiha didn't get the whole chakra like Indra is because the Uchiha clan did not have a blood brother that was Senju named Ashura like Indra did.

No such thing as diluted chakra please keep that for the other members that follow that protocol. As for six path sagemode they are all the same and no different. The same rikudou senjutsu naruto, obito, hagormoo, hamura, kaguya, and madara have are all the same type of senjutsu. Senjutsu is chakra combined with natural energy, how can energy that you gather from the outside be diluted from every other six path sagemode user? That's just nonsense.
And just so you know there is jyubi chakra itself and the jyubi senjutsu itself which is regarded as Six path senjutsu in the uchiha stone tablet.

Power has and can refer to physical strength, chakra, an ability, or the person as a whole, among other things. Hagoromo already said Madara awakened his chakra through mixing Ashura and Indra's chakra, so there is no getting closer to it because he already has it. Your specific example refers to the power the Ten-Tails gives. Power in this case refers to the various abilities, mainly Six Paths Sage Mode. Even Obito said the Rinnegan's chakra was too powerful, not the eye itself, showing an obvious split of usage.

1. It does not refer to physical strength, that's a speculation that I've never read in the manga.
2. Not ability either because Madara cannot do what Hagormoo can do.
3. Person as a whole makes no sense whatsoever.

I just recently remember you saying that chakra passed down is diluted, so by your theory madara's chakra is too diluted to have Hagormoo's chakra is it not?
But in all seriousness Hagoromoo's chakra was divided into two. Madara posses Six path chakra enhancements in the EYES which resulted in the rinnegan. What Madara lacked is Hagoromoo's BODILY chakra (ashura incarnates method) which didn't happen until madara absorbed the jyubi. So rinnegan Madara by himself didn't completely have Hagormoo's chakra by itself otherwise he would be using Six path rods and Mugen Tsuki no me without the jyubi.

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As for Obito he specifically said the ocular power's chakra was so strong that he almost lost himself. That statement is too broad for interpretation, but he clarified himself when he said that he implanted one eye and he was able to accomplish so much with it. So basically he's saying that one eye gave him a lot of power and that's it. I don't know what you're implying with everything else.

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[Scryed]

Hagoromo already admitted Madara was getting close to his power as a host. Also, what do you think Hagoromo gains from the Ten-Tails? He already had Six Paths Sage Mode, so he really is only getting chakra while Madara gets that and more from the Holy Tree.

He said he was trying to reach his power as a Non-JJ since that's the version that gave Naruto and Sasuke the power to counter everything he was throwing at them together.

What does he gain? A massive increase to his power. He already had alot of power before becoming a JJ (more than Non-JJ Madara) and if anything, what Madara gained was access to more abilities since Hagoromo practically had many of the things a JJ showed. The difference here is that Madara had little experience with that kind of power compared to Hagoromo. I don't consider that to make much of a difference though since Naruto and Sasuke had less experience than Madara altogether and had just gotten their powers as well.


The Juubi that Hagoromo took in was already a merged form of Kaguya and the Shinju. Otherwise, Obito wouldn't have been able to do what he did by extracting the Juubi and letting it become the Shinju. This part still confuses me since he let it out and yet, the Juubi still seemed to be within him (Gedo and Bijuu). Looked like he split the Juubi and the Shinju again as he released it but i'm unsure so i'll give it to you.

However, after Hagoromo became JJ, he traveled the world and shared it's chakra with humanity (Kaguya's chakra but it's still the Juubi's) . This was before making the Bijuu and using a CT big enough to seal the Gedo in the moon on his deathbed. This was after he was no longer JJ. The Juubi he had was stronger than the one Madara had just like Madara's was stronger than Obito's. Chakra does make a difference.

 

[SixPathsMike101]

Holy Madara vs Host Hagoromo


It's time to clear up some common and ignorant misconceptions about Hagoromo that have frequently come to deem him, and consequently his brother, as being more powerful than Madara.

_________________________________________​

Hagoromo is the original wielder of the Rinnegan and mastered it

Being the original wielder means absolutely nothing. Kaguya was the original wielder of the Byakugan and yet the Hyuuga clan have made better use of it. Furthermore, Hagoromo is not factually stated to have mastered the Rinnegan.

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Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a Bloodline Net (Kekkei Moura)

Being classified as a Bloodline Net simply means it came from the Holy Tree, just like being a Bloodline Limit would mean it came from genetics. It has absolutely no relation to his eyes' power.

Hagoromo uses Ninshuu which is stronger than Ninjutsu

Incorrect.

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It is absolutely inferior in battle to Ninjutsu (Ninja Techniques).

Hagoromo already had Six Paths Sage Mode before becoming a host

This means absolutely nothing as well. His natural Six Paths Sage Mode and that from the Ten-Tails will not stack because they are the same thing that use the same Six Paths Sage chakra. It does not make his attacks any stronger than Madara's who will have the same mode.

Hagoromo created the moon

No, he and his brother created the moon. Even then, it's not their prowess, but rather the natural size of the technique.

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Hagoromo and Hamura beat Kaguya themselves

No, they didn't. They beat the Ten-Tails by themselves. The Ten-Tails and Kaguya are vastly different, and considering the Ten-Tails' size, it would be far easier to seal it compared to her.

Hagoromo has Creation of All Things

This magnificent technique is said to create form and life from nothingness, and yet, the only time he's used it had him creating form (Tailed Beasts) from chakra.

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Naruto and Sasuke, whom were given power by and are weaker than Hagoromo, were defeating Madara

Literally nothing suggests Naruto and Sasuke together are weaker than Hagoromo. They are not just his halves either. They have powers (Sharingan and Tailed Beasts) that he doesn't. Also, the only hits they landed on Madara were due to Amenotejikara, a technique that Hagoromo doesn't have. Speaking of Madara, he wasn't even at full power.

When Hagoromo said Madara was approaching his power, he was talking about himself without the Ten-Tails

This is completely wrong and selective reading. The only evidence for this is that he was talking in present tense and thus must have been talking about himself as a spirit.

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Justifying this by saying she was the Ten-Tails and consequently was alive is useless. Hagoromo did not know about that, thus he thought she was dead. This proves he was talking about their most powerful forms when alive.

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Facts​

Madara's Six Paths Sage Mode is more powerful

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Madara's eyes are more powerful

Madara has three eye techniques: the Sharingan, Rinnegan, and RinneSharingan. Meanwhile, Hagoromo only has one.

Madara's chakra is more powerful

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My dude, he naturally had all the powers madaa had to struggle and brrow to obtain, yes it says madara mastered the power of the six paths, but the six paths is just the name for him and his techniques that he created basically lol, he is on a whole other level. Madara would get roflstomped. Madara as just trying to be like Hagoromo and Kaguya, and for you to say that naruto and sasuke are potentially stronger than the sage your nuts. They each had half of the power of the sages spirit lol

 

[SixPathsMike101]

I'm not trolling, Hagoromo created the moon with the Yin and Yang seals created by his brother. The creation of the moon was a DEVA technique and Hamura doesn't have Rinnegan jutsu.

Literally everything suggests Naruto and Sasuke ar weaker than Hagoromo, fact one he only gave them a portion of his power when he was a soul not a living person in his prime. Fact two Hagoromo inherited chakra from someone that was one with the Shinju, he has Shinju chakra not just the 9 bijuus which is just a fraction of Kaguya's full power. Fact three, Naruto and Sasuke gaveJJ Madara a hard time and they weren't even using their power to their fullest.

JJ Hagoromo is on a whole other different level compared to Madara simly because his descendants only have a portion of his power due to centuries of blood thinning. JJ Madara is below JJ Hagoromo the same way EMS Madara was a level below Indra

This here

 

[Hakke]

My dude, he naturally had all the powers madaa had to struggle and brrow to obtain, yes it says madara mastered the power of the six paths, but the six paths is just the name for him and his techniques that he created basically lol, he is on a whole other level. Madara would get roflstomped. Madara as just trying to be like Hagoromo and Kaguya, and for you to say that naruto and sasuke are potentially stronger than the sage your nuts. They each had half of the power of the sages spirit lol

I'm not trolling, Hagoromo created the moon with the Yin and Yang seals created by his brother. The creation of the moon was a DEVA technique and Hamura doesn't have Rinnegan jutsu.

Literally everything suggests Naruto and Sasuke ar weaker than Hagoromo, fact one he only gave them a portion of his power when he was a soul not a living person in his prime. Fact two Hagoromo inherited chakra from someone that was one with the Shinju, he has Shinju chakra not just the 9 bijuus which is just a fraction of Kaguya's full power. Fact three, Naruto and Sasuke gaveJJ Madara a hard time and they weren't even using their power to their fullest.

JJ Hagoromo is on a whole other different level compared to Madara simly because his descendants only have a portion of his power due to centuries of blood thinning. JJ Madara is below JJ Hagoromo the same way EMS Madara was a level below Indra

I completely agree

 

[Holy God]

Impure Resurrection requires life for one edo life and so did the resurrection technique Chiyo did for gaara. So no, manipulating souls is not that easy because it always requires one soul/life in exchange. And those historical kage's souls were alive in the real wolrd since they are no longer in the afterlife.

You're not alive until you have a body. Chiyo had to give her own life to bring someone back. The same with Rinne Rebirth and Impure World Resurrection to instill life in a body. Even then though, the latter doesn't make the target actually alive shown by Madara couldn't become a host. Hagoromo did not bring anyone back thus it required no sacrifice.

All Uchihas are born with Six path yin release as the manga and databook stated

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The only reason why the Uchiha didn't get the whole chakra like Indra is because the Uchiha clan did not have a blood brother that was Senju named Ashura like Indra did.

No such thing as diluted chakra please keep that for the other members that follow that protocol. As for six path sagemode they are all the same and no different. The same rikudou senjutsu naruto, obito, hagormoo, hamura, kaguya, and madara have are all the same type of senjutsu. Senjutsu is chakra combined with natural energy, how can energy that you gather from the outside be diluted from every other six path sagemode user? That's just nonsense.
And just so you know there is jyubi chakra itself and the jyubi senjutsu itself which is regarded as Six path senjutsu in the uchiha stone tablet.

The Uchiha have Yin Style, not Six Paths chakra. Do you really think all descendants of Kaguya have Six Paths chakra? Yes, diluted chakra exists and you've already partly admitted to it. If chakra didn't change and dilute, then everyone would have the same chakra: Kaguya's. If you agree they don't, then you agree people have different chakra and it changes through genetics.

Yes, Sage chakra is just natural energy combined with your own chakra, but that doesn't mean all forms are the same. It's the reason why Naruto and Kabuto don't have the same Sage Mode. Six Paths Sage Mode is a bit different in this regard, but there are still varying forms depending on the chakra you have. Minato sensed more Six Paths power in Madara and consequently his form appeared closer to Kaguya than Obito's did. Furthermore, after absorbing the Holy Tree he appeared even closer than Hagoromo did. It's why Kaguya is faster than Naruto despite them having the same mode. Also, you appear to be mixing the terms a bit. Sage Mode and Sage Technique (senjutsu) are not the same thing if you didn't know.

1. It does not refer to physical strength, that's a speculation that I've never read in the manga.
2. Not ability either because Madara cannot do what Hagormoo can do.
3. Person as a whole makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes, it can refer to physical strength. It has also been referred to as ability, where for example the Mangekyou Sharingan's third power is Susano'o. Referring to a person as a whole makes sense to for comparison values, such as if one person is more powerful than another.

I just recently remember you saying that chakra passed down is diluted, so by your theory madara's chakra is too diluted to have Hagormoo's chakra is it not?
But in all seriousness Hagoromoo's chakra was divided into two. Madara posses Six path chakra enhancements in the EYES which resulted in the rinnegan. What Madara lacked is Hagoromoo's BODILY chakra (ashura incarnates method) which didn't happen until madara absorbed the jyubi. So rinnegan Madara by himself didn't completely have Hagormoo's chakra by itself otherwise he would be using Six path rods and Mugen Tsuki no me without the jyubi.

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Incorrect. Madara and Hashirama themselves do have diluted chakra, but the exact chakra of Indra and Ashura cling to them, which is verified when Kaguya checked them. Combined it comes out to Hagoromo's. The only reason he doesn't have Six Paths Sage Mode from this is because he never trained for it, and thus can't collect nature energy.

As for Obito he specifically said the ocular power's chakra was so strong that he almost lost himself. That statement is too broad for interpretation, but he clarified himself when he said that he implanted one eye and he was able to accomplish so much with it. So basically he's saying that one eye gave him a lot of power and that's it. I don't know what you're implying with everything else.

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The fact that he separated chakra and power shows that it can refer to different things.

 

[Holy God]

He said he was trying to reach his power as a Non-JJ since that's the version that gave Naruto and Sasuke the power to counter everything he was throwing at them together.

I've already addressed that in the thread.

Spoiler

When Hagoromo said Madara was approaching his power, he was talking about himself without the Ten-Tails

This is completely wrong and selective reading. The only evidence for this is that he was talking in present tense and thus must have been talking about himself as a spirit.

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Justifying this by saying she was the Ten-Tails and consequently was alive is useless. Hagoromo did not know about that, thus he thought she was dead. This proves he was talking about their most powerful forms when alive.

What does he gain? A massive increase to his power. He already had alot of power before becoming a JJ (more than Non-JJ Madara) and if anything, what Madara gained was access to more abilities since Hagoromo practically had many of the things a JJ showed. The difference here is that Madara had little experience with that kind of power compared to Hagoromo. I don't consider that to make much of a difference though since Naruto and Sasuke had less experience than Madara altogether and had just gotten their powers as well.

Exactly my point. Hagoromo didn't gain as much as Madara. What Hagoromo had before becoming a host is rendered irrelevant when Madara gains the same thing after becoming one. My point is that Madara has everything Hagoromo has and more.

However, after Hagoromo became JJ, he traveled the world and shared it's chakra with humanity (Kaguya's chakra but it's still the Juubi's) . This was before making the Bijuu and using a CT big enough to seal the Gedo in the moon on his deathbed. This was after he was no longer JJ. The Juubi he had was stronger than the one Madara had just like Madara's was stronger than Obito's. Chakra does make a difference.

Tailed Beasts still regenerate chakra, so it doesn't matter if he shared it out. Also, Hagoromo did not make the moon on his deathbed. He made it when he and Hamura defeated Kaguya. The only difference between Madara and Hagoromo is half of Kurama, which isn't much in the long run, but I guess it's something.

 

[Holy God]

My dude, he naturally had all the powers madaa had to struggle and brrow to obtain, yes it says madara mastered the power of the six paths, but the six paths is just the name for him and his techniques that he created basically lol, he is on a whole other level. Madara would get roflstomped. Madara as just trying to be like Hagoromo and Kaguya, and for you to say that naruto and sasuke are potentially stronger than the sage your nuts. They each had half of the power of the sages spirit lol

You haven't provided any reasoning for me to believe Hagoromo is stronger. Naturally having the powers means nothing since they both have them regardless.