Madara vs Hagoromo

[Ansatsuken]

If we go by pure feats Hagoromo still loses. He's done nothing spectacular with his Rinnegan. The seals weren't made with his eyes. Six Paths Planetary Devastation was done using the seals. Splitting the Ten-Tails was done using Creation Of All Things. I'll give him credit for using the Outer Path for calling souls, but that's just one feat. Madara has shown way more. He has more experience with the Ten-Tails' power, but that's the only thing confirmable.

It bcus he found it unnecessary as he already dead and the job is for other people to handle.


Six Path CT seal having Hago's Deva Path power in it. It cant came out from nowhere but from someone who possess that capability.

And all Rinnegan users can used all Six Path tech. With feats or featless, it wont changes that.

 

[SenseiSama]

If we go by pure feats Hagoromo still loses. He's done nothing spectacular with his Rinnegan. The seals weren't made with his eyes. Six Paths Planetary Devastation was done using the seals. Splitting the Ten-Tails was done using Creation Of All Things. I'll give him credit for using the Outer Path for calling souls, but that's just one feat. Madara has shown way more. He has more experience with the Ten-Tails' power, but that's the only thing confirmable.

Hell to the no, show me a scan of Madara casually making a moon without the Juubi's power. If Hagoromo was able to do what he did as an OLD MAN without a living body or the power of the 9 bijuu, then Madara has no chance against JJ version of the Sage who was in his prime.

Rinnegan belongs to Hagoromo, he would logically know how to use his own power better than someone who artificially recreated it.

 

[Holy God]

It bcus he found it unnecessary as he already dead and the job is for other people to handle.


Six Path CT seal having Hago's Deva Path power in it. It cant came out from nowhere but from someone who possess that capability.

And all Rinnegan users can used all Six Path tech. With feats or featless, it wont changes that.

Even if it was made with the Rinnegan, that's just one feat outside of the Six Paths Techniques. I can't call that more experienced than Madara, especially if it's so ambiguous.

 

[SenseiSama]

Even if it was made with the Rinnegan, that's just one feat outside of the Six Paths Techniques. I can't call that more experienced than Madara, especially if it's so ambiguous.

Experienced Madara was struggling against Naruto and Sasuke, in what world does he stand a chance against JJ Hagoromo in his prime ?

 

[Holy God]

Hell to the no, show me a scan of Madara casually making a moon without the Juubi's power. If Hagoromo was able to do what he did as an OLD MAN without a living body or the power of the 9 bijuu, then Madara has no chance against JJ version of the Sage who was in his prime.

Rinnegan belongs to Hagoromo, he would logically know how to use his own power better than someone who artificially recreated it.

Experienced Madara was struggling against Naruto and Sasuke, in what world does he stand a chance against JJ Hagoromo in his prime ?

You should have read the thread instead of the initial troll response you made.

Spoiler

Hagoromo created the moon

No, he and his brother created the moon. Even then, it's not their prowess, but rather the natural size of the technique.

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Naruto and Sasuke, whom were given power by and are weaker than Hagoromo, were defeating Madara

Literally nothing suggests Naruto and Sasuke together are weaker than Hagoromo. They are not just his halves either. They have powers (Sharingan and Tailed Beasts) that he doesn't. Also, the only hits they landed on Madara were due to Amenotejikara, a technique that Hagoromo doesn't have. Speaking of Madara, he wasn't even at full power.

 

[SenseiSama]

You should have read the thread instead of the initial troll response you made.

Spoiler

Hagoromo created the moon

No, he and his brother created the moon. Even then, it's not their prowess, but rather the natural size of the technique.

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Naruto and Sasuke, whom were given power by and are weaker than Hagoromo, were defeating Madara

Literally nothing suggests Naruto and Sasuke together are weaker than Hagoromo. They are not just his halves either. They have powers (Sharingan and Tailed Beasts) that he doesn't. Also, the only hits they landed on Madara were due to Amenotejikara, a technique that Hagoromo doesn't have. Speaking of Madara, he wasn't even at full power.

I'm not trolling, Hagoromo created the moon with the Yin and Yang seals created by his brother. The creation of the moon was a DEVA technique and Hamura doesn't have Rinnegan jutsu.

Literally everything suggests Naruto and Sasuke ar weaker than Hagoromo, fact one he only gave them a portion of his power when he was a soul not a living person in his prime. Fact two Hagoromo inherited chakra from someone that was one with the Shinju, he has Shinju chakra not just the 9 bijuus which is just a fraction of Kaguya's full power. Fact three, Naruto and Sasuke gaveJJ Madara a hard time and they weren't even using their power to their fullest.

JJ Hagoromo is on a whole other different level compared to Madara simly because his descendants only have a portion of his power due to centuries of blood thinning. JJ Madara is below JJ Hagoromo the same way EMS Madara was a level below Indra

 

[Holy God]

I'm not trolling, Hagoromo created the moon with the Yin and Yang seals created by his brother. The creation of the moon was a DEVA technique and Hamura doesn't have Rinnegan jutsu.

Hagoromo created the moon with his brother's help in their youth. It's not that impressive when Naruto and Sasuke have done the same thing.

Literally everything suggests Naruto and Sasuke ar weaker than Hagoromo, fact one he only gave them a portion of his power when he was a soul not a living person in his prime. Fact two Hagoromo inherited chakra from someone that was one with the Shinju, he has Shinju chakra not just the 9 bijuus which is just a fraction of Kaguya's full power. Fact three, Naruto and Sasuke gaveJJ Madara a hard time and they weren't even using their power to their fullest.

You say that as if "a portion of his power" is weak. This portion gave Naruto a full Six Paths Sage Mode equal to that of the Ten-Tails' and Sasuke a Rinnegan equal to (or even greater than considering the Sharingan aspect) that of Hagoromo's very own. While you say they gave Madara a hard time, you also missed that Madara wasn't using his full power either. Literally nothing points to them being weaker than Hagoromo together.

JJ Hagoromo is on a whole other different level compared to Madara simly because his descendants only have a portion of his power due to centuries of blood thinning. JJ Madara is below JJ Hagoromo the same way EMS Madara was a level below Indra

Those aren't comparable. The difference between EMS Madara and Indra is Six Paths chakra. The difference between Madara and Hagoromo is the Holy Tree and Sharingan, and that goes in favor of the former.

 

[Honord Sage]

Holy Madara vs Host Hagoromo


It's time to clear up some common and ignorant misconceptions about Hagoromo that have frequently come to deem him, and consequently his brother, as being more powerful than Madara.

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Hagoromo is the original wielder of the Rinnegan and mastered it

Being the original wielder means absolutely nothing. Kaguya was the original wielder of the Byakugan and yet the Hyuuga clan have made better use of it. Furthermore, Hagoromo is not factually stated to have mastered the Rinnegan.

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Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a Bloodline Net (Kekkei Moura)

Being classified as a Bloodline Net simply means it came from the Holy Tree, just like being a Bloodline Limit would mean it came from genetics. It has absolutely no relation to his eyes' power.

Hagoromo uses Ninshuu which is stronger than Ninjutsu

Incorrect.

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It is absolutely inferior in battle to Ninjutsu (Ninja Techniques).

Hagoromo already had Six Paths Sage Mode before becoming a host

This means absolutely nothing as well. His natural Six Paths Sage Mode and that from the Ten-Tails will not stack because they are the same thing that use the same Six Paths Sage chakra. It does not make his attacks any stronger than Madara's who will have the same mode.

Hagoromo created the moon

No, he and his brother created the moon. Even then, it's not their prowess, but rather the natural size of the technique.

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Hagoromo and Hamura beat Kaguya themselves

No, they didn't. They beat the Ten-Tails by themselves. The Ten-Tails and Kaguya are vastly different, and considering the Ten-Tails' size, it would be far easier to seal it compared to her.

Hagoromo has Creation of All Things

This magnificent technique is said to create form and life from nothingness, and yet, the only time he's used it had him creating form (Tailed Beasts) from chakra.

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Naruto and Sasuke, whom were given power by and are weaker than Hagoromo, were defeating Madara

Literally nothing suggests Naruto and Sasuke together are weaker than Hagoromo. They are not just his halves either. They have powers (Sharingan and Tailed Beasts) that he doesn't. Also, the only hits they landed on Madara were due to Amenotejikara, a technique that Hagoromo doesn't have. Speaking of Madara, he wasn't even at full power.

When Hagoromo said Madara was approaching his power, he was talking about himself without the Ten-Tails

This is completely wrong and selective reading. The only evidence for this is that he was talking in present tense and thus must have been talking about himself as a spirit.

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Justifying this by saying she was the Ten-Tails and consequently was alive is useless. Hagoromo did not know about that, thus he thought she was dead. This proves he was talking about their most powerful forms when alive.

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Facts​

Madara's Six Paths Sage Mode is more powerful

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Madara's eyes are more powerful

Madara has three eye techniques: the Sharingan, Rinnegan, and RinneSharingan. Meanwhile, Hagoromo only has one.

Madara's chakra is more powerful

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It only took seconds for Black Zetzu to defeat Madara and Black Zetzu is the younger Brother of Haguromo and not as strong as Haguromo so your reasoning is flaw.

 

[lndra]

It only took seconds for Black Zetzu to defeat Madara and Black Zetzu is the younger Brother of Haguromo and not as strong as Haguromo so your reasoning is flaw.

Lmaooo

 

[Oblivionx]

that whole family aside from kaguya is featless. So there is no comparison whatsoever. But i can see madara being stronger than him because madara was born in era of war and saw techniques and mastered them. While hogoromo was a spiritual type character, where he would have refined his chakra but would be limited in techniques. Coat is the only problem. But i think madara has it too? Since naruto had it and obito did too i think? So that balances scales.
But it's really up to personal preference.

 

[shelke]

Madara is steam-rolled. This isn't even a contest. You must be joking.

 

[LuckyMan]

that whole family aside from kaguya is featless. So there is no comparison whatsoever. But i can see madara being stronger than him because madara was born in era of war and saw techniques and mastered them. While hogoromo was a spiritual type character, where he would have refined his chakra but would be limited in techniques. Coat is the only problem. But i think madara has it too? Since naruto had it and obito did too i think? So that balances scales.
But it's really up to personal preference.

Truth Seeking Balls and Creation of all Things aren't the same. With TSB we see it negates all jutsu and erases what it touches. With CoaT we see it undo Edo Tensei and raise the souls of the dead with just a thought. Two totally different techniques and CoaT is far superior, it's almost reality warping.

 

[Holy God]

Truth Seeking Balls and Creation of all Things aren't the same. With TSB we see it negates all jutsu and erases what it touches. With CoaT we see it undo Edo Tensei and raise the souls of the dead with just a thought. Two totally different techniques and CoaT is far superior, it's almost reality warping.

Creation Of All Things is said to create form from nothing and give it life, like with the Tailed Beasts. The actions you speak of have nothing to do with that and is just soul manipulation via the Rinnegan.

 

[kiiro]

Yes, i believe Madara is more powerful. More battle skills.

In fact i believe he is top 5 ninja talented with more battle skills and abilitys. Madara, Obito, Itachi, Minato and Hashirama.

 

[Eng nawashi]

I agree .Madara with DR and Rinnesharingan with an access to IT chakra is at least around JJ Hagromo's level of power if not stronger .

 

[NickSenju]

Quite simply......U R ONE DUMB DUDE!!!!!!!!

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Nagato returned the souls to bodies. Hagoromo didn't. That's the main difference here. You have to exchange life for life, and Hagoromo didn't bring anyone to life.

Sorry I didn't reply earlier i had work but here I am now. So yeah the bold part here.

Spoiler

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Hagoromo created them from the Ten-Tails' chakra, and before being a host, he did not have that. It was only Kurama's chakra needed for Hagoromo's summoning, but that was just something he setup anyways.

The ten tail's chakra is kaguya's chakra which she specifically said her powers were divided among her sons. If Hagormoo didn't have ten tail's chakra genetically, he wouldn't of been able to use six path sage mode. And you said it yourself that kurama's chakra was also responsible for summoning hagormoo's chakra. Kurama is a biju that was necessary to bring a small portion of Hagormoo's chakra and Hagoromoo said that the juubi was the closest way of reaching his chakra if you're not a transmigrant.

Spoiler

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Madara needed the jyuubi's power to get to hagormoo which is a constancy of all 9 biju.
I'm not saying that hagormoo's chakra is equivalent to all full bijus but he sure has at least a piece of them like naruto.

 

[NarutoX28]

The Holy Tree gave him the ability to use a Bloodline Limit he didn't have prior and the Databook says he has the ability to return all chakra to himself, which is what Kaguya did. Hagoromo's limited state was caused by the extraction of the Tailed Beasts. He didn't use Creation Of All Things, or anything else for that matter after it.

Spoiler

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Fact is, he has not exhibited the level of proficiency that Kaguya has, so assuming that Madara can effectively wield the Bijuu's Kekkei Genkai is extrapolation. Madara has the Shinju, so he should be able to accomplish such a feat, but his level of mastery over utilizing the Shinju's power denotes that we can't arbitrarily hand him feats just because he has that power.

Oops, you're correct:

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But this does not discredit that Hagoromo was capable of utilizing COAT and had the ability to utilize Six Paths Chibaku Tensei on his lonesome. These are example that illustrate that Hagoromo's Six Path Sage Mode was more refined.

That's a hypothetical situation that can't be judged by us. Kaguya only absorbed chakra once, and that was in order to normalize herself. If you're talking about trying to absorb her opponents' chakra, that has to do with the complex that all chakra belongs to her. Likewise, Madara had the ability to control the chakra of everyone under Infinite Tsukuyomi but didn't. Madara's explosion was caused by Black Zetsu making him unable to control his body, so he ended up like Obito.

Madara's explosion was due to his inability to handle that chakra, Sasuke even clarifies this for the reader:

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In comparison to Kaguya who could. Naruto, Kaguya, and Hagoromo have all accomplished feats that Madara has failed to accomplish using Rikudou Senjutsu. I'm going to need accomplishments demonstrated in the manga that would place Madara above Hagoromo and not sheer extrapolation.

Obviously Madara's Sage Mode feats are limited because that doesn't fit in with his character and he's never trained to be a sage. At best he's used a Sage Art technique and also used Yin Style to create form from nothing. Similar but opposite to you however, I'd be baffled if Madara's Sage Mode was less complete than Naruto's for the simple portrayal of his outfit surpassing Hagoromo's.

My arguments cannot be judged yet his incompatibility with higher-end feats can somehow be judged by you? That's simply unfair honestly. The only way you can prove this notion is if there are pieces of information that imply that Madara can accomplish these feats and quite frankly, there are none. I'm not denying he can accomplish more because through interpolation, we can infer that Madara can accomplish feats that Juubito did as well as the Juubidama because that's a rather pragmatic approach, but extrapolating that Madara can accomplish these things without any basis for it is theoretical and baseless.

 

[UnknownJin]

nice thread Hagoromo is stronger

 

[Holy God]

Sorry I didn't reply earlier i had work but here I am now. So yeah the bold part here.

Spoiler

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That does not mean they are living. Obito also returned from the pure land but he definitely wasn't alive.

The ten tail's chakra is kaguya's chakra which she specifically said her powers were divided among her sons. If Hagormoo didn't have ten tail's chakra genetically, he wouldn't of been able to use six path sage mode. And you said it yourself that kurama's chakra was also responsible for summoning hagormoo's chakra. Kurama is a biju that was necessary to bring a small portion of Hagormoo's chakra and Hagoromoo said that the juubi was the closest way of reaching his chakra if you're not a transmigrant.

Spoiler

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Madara needed the jyuubi's power to get to hagormoo which is a constancy of all 9 biju.
I'm not saying that hagormoo's chakra is equivalent to all full bijus but he sure has at least a piece of them like naruto.

He doesn't have the Ten-Tails' chakra exactly is what I'm saying. He has some form of Six Paths Sage chakra genetically, but it isn't exactly the same as the Ten-Tails'. Similarly, the Uchiha have the Sharingan, but they don't have Indra's exact chakra. Kurama was set as a requirement for his summon only. It isn't actually a part of his chakra shown by how Madara didn't need it for him to awaken his chakra, and for the simple fact Kurama wasn't even a thing until way after his birth. And no, Hagoromo said the Ten-Tails allowed Madara to reach his own power, not his own chakra, and he previously stated he already had that from mixing genetics.