[Discussion] Democrat/republican

[Lightbringer]

Most of what you guys are arguing is the hypocrisy of both parties.

Well both parties aren't really for "small government" or "justice."

The best way I can summarize is that the Democratic Establishment is almost the same as the Republican Establishment, except the Democrats are more liberal on social issues and social justice.

But when it comes to real justice, such as prosecuting banksters, then they are the same as the Republicans.

However, the Democratic Establishment will throw the people a bone every now an then, such as Obamacare, which is still privatized but not something as liberal as going full single-payer, as opposed to the Republicans which never do anything good.


But both establishments don't represent the will of the people; which is why there was such a huge following for Bernie Sanders on the Democratic side and why the progressive wing is starting to replace the neo-liberal Democrats.

And same goes for Donald Trump since he won the Republican primary by a landslide and he ran on the message that he wasn't a politician nor part of the establishment.

 

[kimb]

You just said you agree with me, but don't debate you on the facts?

Just because they listed it, doesn't mean that's what they represent.

Republicans claim they are for family values and small government, but that's obviously not true.

Most of what you guys are arguing is the hypocrisy of both parties.

What Anubis said. Neither the republican party nor the democratic party follows their own principles and philosophies to a T. Both hold self contradictory beliefs, and are often times hypocritical, which is why I identify with neither. If you want to rag on republicans that's cool, I just wanted to present the facts.

 

[Lightbringer]

What Anubis said. Neither the republican party nor the democratic party follows their own principles and philosophies to a T. Both hold self contradictory beliefs, and are often times hypocritical, which is why I identify with neither. If you want to rag on republicans that's cool, I just wanted to present the facts.

Well I clarified my statement in my other comment at the top of the page.

 

[kimb]

Well both parties aren't really for "small government" or "justice."

The best way I can summarize is that the Democratic Establishment is almost the same as the Republican Establishment, except the Democrats are more liberal on social issues and social justice.

But when it comes to real justice, such as prosecuting banksters, then they are the same as the Republicans.

However, the Democratic Establishment will throw the people a bone every now an then, such as Obamacare, which is still privatized but not something as liberal as going full single-payer, as opposed to the Republicans which never do anything good.


But both establishments don't represent the will of the people; which is why there was such a huge following for Bernie Sanders on the Democratic side and why the progressive wing is starting to replace the neo-liberal Democrats.

And same goes for Donald Trump since he won the Republican primary by a landslide and he ran on the message that he wasn't a politician nor part of the establishment.

You're not wrong about your definition, but you're not right. Both the republican party and the democratic party observe the core principles and philosophy of their party respectively, to some degree, but the beliefs of what is considered conservatism, and what's considered liberalism varies from politician to politician, and from person to person, often times contradicting the core beliefs of each establishment. That's why I gave an all encompassing, general definition of each party, instead of getting into the nitty gritty with specific policies and politicians.

For example, most Republicans do want small government. Fiscal conservatives actually work toward that end by cutting taxes and bureaucratic spending. Same with the Tea Party and Libertarian republicans. On the other hand, Liberal Republicans are generally in support of larger government, and Traditional Republicans push for imposing their own social views through laws and legislation. And even between those 4 types of conservatives, there are varying degrees of conservatism that respectively lies between them. So you're not wrong when you say republican's don't really want small government, but you're not right either.

Here's something I've been sharing with a few of my conservative friends. Rand Paul basically calls out the republican senate on their bullshit on their repeal on Obamacare on a plan that will set the U.S. nearly 10 trillion more dollars into debt. (Sidenote: I was really pushing for Rand Paul to be nominated as the republican candidate, but it never came to fruition).

​

Also, Obamacare isn't privatized, it's subsidized through private companies. People were pretty much forced to by health insurance, which increased the cost of premiums, causing the price of health insurance to sky rocket. Since people who couldn't afford health insurance couldn't be denied by the insurance companies, everyone else had to pay the price. It was a forced subsidy that got way too expensive. I hold more libertarian views when it comes to government programs and taxes, so I feel like democrats are hypocritical when they claim they're for liberty and freedom, while at the same time mandate taxes through force. That's more of a personal view, so I don't hold it against the entire establishment.

You already know how I feel about socialism/communism, so you know how I feel about Bernie Sanders, but I agree that both establishments fail to represent the will of the people, or at least to an effective degree, and I can admit Bernie Sander's did a good job at listening to the general public's problems and acting accordingly.

(Ughh, why tf do my replies always end up so long).

 

[demon of the leaf]

I support neither party since non truly follows my beliefs

Socialism is by far the worst system in practice you can look throughout history or look at east Europe and china from maos time Vietnam North Korea all of those are examples of how that system works

The Republican Party has stayed consistent with its views while the Democratic Party has changed

Though i see a change in both parties in the near future being possible

Though i see nothing wrong with conservative beliefs and progressive beliefs theres stuff i certainly disagree with to be fair

Tradition holds onto our roots and set values and morals
Progression allows us to move forward

does need some regulation on abortions or there will be woman who dont really need it but are using it as an alternative to birth control

There does need to be help for people that are poor

We need to have better border security not every person coming in wants a better life they could be coming in to kill people

We need to have a strong military not everyone is our friend

We should only maintain the nukes and not make more

We should focus on getting to mars and even grasping at the unlimited resources of space for all we know space could unite the world to explore it

Focus on new tech

Balance strong gov and peoples rights over government

Fix racial issues

I know its a long list and i havnt gotten past most of them

 

[Lightbringer]

You're not wrong about your definition, but you're not right. Both the republican party and the democratic party observe the core principles and philosophy of their party respectively, to some degree, but the beliefs of what is considered conservatism, and what's considered liberalism varies from politician to politician, and from person to person, often times contradicting the core beliefs of each establishment. That's why I gave an all encompassing, general definition of each party, instead of getting into the nitty gritty with specific policies and politicians.

For example, most Republicans do want small government. Fiscal conservatives actually work toward that end by cutting taxes and bureaucratic spending. Same with the Tea Party and Libertarian republicans. On the other hand, Liberal Republicans are generally in support of larger government, and Traditional Republicans push for imposing their own social views through laws and legislation. And even between those 4 types of conservatives, there are varying degrees of conservatism that respectively lies between them. So you're not wrong when you say republican's don't really want small government, but you're not right either.

Here's something I've been sharing with a few of my conservative friends. Rand Paul basically calls out the republican senate on their bullshit on their repeal on Obamacare on a plan that will set the U.S. nearly 10 trillion more dollars into debt. (Sidenote: I was really pushing for Rand Paul to be nominated as the republican candidate, but it never came to fruition).

​

Also, Obamacare isn't privatized, it's subsidized through private companies. People were pretty much forced to by health insurance, which increased the cost of premiums, causing the price of health insurance to sky rocket. Since people who couldn't afford health insurance couldn't be denied by the insurance companies, everyone else had to pay the price. It was a forced subsidy that got way too expensive. I hold more libertarian views when it comes to government programs and taxes, so I feel like democrats are hypocritical when they claim they're for liberty and freedom, while at the same time mandate taxes through force. That's more of a personal view, so I don't hold it against the entire establishment.

You already know how I feel about socialism/communism, so you know how I feel about Bernie Sanders, but I agree that both establishments fail to represent the will of the people, or at least to an effective degree, and I can admit Bernie Sander's did a good job at listening to the general public's problems and acting accordingly.

(Ughh, why tf do my replies always end up so long).

Rand Paul is the one exception for Republicans honestly. I mean, he's the only one I can think of that isn't hardcore conservative.

If it were Rand Paul vs Hillary, there's a slim chance I might actually go with Rand Paul.

But he's one in a dozen. The majority of the Republican Establishment, including the heads of the party: Paul Ryan, Reince Prebus, and Mitch McConnell, have been talking about repealing Obamacare since its inception.