War Arc Kakashi + Itachi vs. Sannin

[BenjerminGaye]

Lmaooo and what on earth does distance have to do? Kakashi warped the gedo mazo's head (attempted) from a lot further, the same when he tried to warp the whole Juubi. Don't go full retard.

gedo mazo's head is a FARRR bigger target than a coffin. Bad comparison, try again.

And lol, edo tensei summoning or any jutsu Jiraiya uses to block LoS takes a lot more time than Kamui which is nigh instant.

What since when was nigh instant faster than instant? Summoning jutsu is instant, whether jman or oro is doing it. Kamui is not.

People still controvert the truth as an excuse?

So im guessing any summoning justu is prep right? Gotchu fam -_-

 

[NarutoX28]

So im guessing any summoning justu is prep right? Gotchu fam -_-

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Would you look at that ... prep ...

In all seriousness, the summoning contract that the average summoning contract employs is similar to the summoning of the souls for Edo Tensei. Any of these are permanent when the user has mastered the jutsu, but the issue arises with Edo Tensei is because it invokes extensive preparation. Having corpses to house these aforementioned souls while acquiring the corresponding DNA is not something that's permanent and even Orochimaru had to replicate the entire process in order to instigate the summoning for the Edo Kages for the second time. It was fortuitous that Zetsu were concealed within Sasuke and that Orochimaru had the DNA of the Kages through inexplicable means.

If that wasn't the case, then Orochimaru would've had to repeat the process which was redundant in the manga.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

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Would you look at that ... prep ...

In all seriousness, the summoning contract that the average summoning contract employs is similar to the summoning of the souls for Edo Tensei. Any of these are permanent when the user has mastered the jutsu, but the issue arises with Edo Tensei is because it invokes extensive preparation. Having corpses to house the souls while acquiring the corresponding DNA is not something that's permanent and even Orochimaru had to replicate the entire process in order to instigate the summoning for the Edo Kages for the second time.

Thats no more prep than singing the toad scroll, in blood.
The only reason oro had to redo the process is because what he needed was in a place inaccessible to him.
The technique would fail as it did in part 1 with minato.
As it did in part 2 when madara tried summoning kurama.

He, just like oro would have to redo the process (whatever that may be) in order to summon kurama again after he gains access. The idea of summoning jutsu being prep has been argued to death years ago, it isn't.

 

[NarutoX28]

Thats no more prep than singing the toad scroll, in blood.
The only reason oro had to redo the process is because what he needed was in a place inaccessible to him.
The technique would fail as it did in part 1 with minato.
As it did in part 2 when madara tried summoning kurama.

He, just like oro would have to redo the process (whatever that may be) in order to summon kurama again after he gains access. The idea of summoning jutsu being prep has been argued to death years ago, it isn't.

Signing a contract is a prerequisite for learning how to use the jutsu, that's literally analogous to almost every single jutsu within the manga. Edo Tensei's learning curve is simply the summoning of the soul from the Afterlife to the Shinobiverse's dimension. As Kabuto elaborated here,

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, but the user has to undergo a more thorough process in order to maximize its efficacy. Summoning the soul is the prerequisite for learning the jutsu and the ability to do so is rather spontaneous, but the retrieval of the body and DNA is not.

A similar example would be the Hokage's Barrier used within the War Arc where each of the Hokage can collaborate and erect the barrier without any external preparations in respect to learning the jutsu, but depending on the size, Minato would have to lay out the Kunai and transport the Hokage equidistant from each-other. Similar concept and it's impractical much like it is for Edo Tensei.

As for your argument, I'm confused as to what you're getting at. I don't recall location acting as a constraint for Orochimaru at any point in the manga.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Signing a contract is a prerequisite for learning how to use the jutsu, that's literally analogous to almost every single jutsu within the manga.

No it's not. Since summoning jutsu is universally the same regardless of who or what summon. (bite finger, clap hands, slap floor/scroll etc) the contract is "summon specific" as in naruto despite knowing how to perform summoning jutsu can ONLY summon frogs. He can't summon snakes cus he doesnt have a contract with them. Him writing his name in the scroll is the contract, oro killing someone to summon someone else is the contract . You only have to do it once. Whereas prep would mean you would have to do it BEFORE EVERY BATTLE. Did kabuto have to kill 2 people to summon madara twice?

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No.

Does naruto have to sign the contract every time he summons? No. Im not even gonna bother with the rest because its unnecessary.

Edo Tensei's learning curve is simply the summoning of the soul from the Afterlife to the Shinobiverse's dimension. As Kabuto elaborated here,

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, but the user has to undergo a more thorough process in order to maximize its efficacy. Summoning the soul is the prerequisite for learning the jutsu and the ability to do so is rather spontaneous, but the retrieval of the body and DNA is not.

A similar example would be the Hokage's Barrier used within the War Arc where each of the Hokage can collaborate and erect the barrier without any external preparations in respect to learning the jutsu, but depending on the size, Minato would have to lay out the Kunai and transport the Hokage equidistant from each-other. Similar concept and it's impractical much like it is for Edo Tensei.

As for your argument, I'm confused as to what you're getting at. I don't recall location acting as a constraint for Orochimaru at any point in the manga.

 

[EZQ]

gedo mazo's head is a FARRR bigger target than a coffin. Bad comparison, try again.

Lmao okay. Warping BM Naruto's clone.

What since when was nigh instant faster than instant? Summoning jutsu is instant, whether jman or oro is doing it. Kamui is not.

Okay you went full retard. Summoning is instant but the prep for it is not. Oro has to make the hand seals and chakra gathering etc... every single basic requirement for almost every jutsu. Kamui's prep time <<<<< any other jutsu we've seen except from ST jutsus. So, if you think Orochimaru actually pulls of the summoning before getting warped by Kakashi, then you don't deserve being replied to anymore.

So im guessing any summoning justu is prep right? Gotchu fam -_-

Damn Narutox28, your argument is lame. Bengay you should just tell him:

Edo tensei is a jutsu that needs prep JUST ONE TIME, and after you did it that time, IT BECOMES PERMANENT in your arsenal. If Orochimaru had to do the prep everytime he uses the jutsu then you'd have a point. I'm lazy to quote you so i hope you read it.

 

[NarutoX28]

Damn Narutox28, your argument is lame. Bengay you should just tell him:

Edo tensei is a jutsu that needs prep JUST ONE TIME, and after you did it that time, IT BECOMES PERMANENT in your arsenal. If Orochimaru had to do the prep everytime he uses the jutsu then you'd have a point. I'm lazy to quote you so i hope you read it.

Moreso the fact that he doesn't understand what I'm arguing.

 

[LuckyMan]

Yes.

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and

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is Kakashi activating MS. Naruto can form his Bijuu Dama and Gai can swing his nunchucks out by the time Kakashi activates MS. Not use it. Just him activating the eye to get ready to use Kamui is enough time for them to do that. So, yes, Orochimaru can clap his hands before Kakashi uses Kamui.

Kamui on the coffins won't work because his line of sight will be cut off. I just established the fact that Orochimaru can clap his hands to use ET by the time Kakashi is only activating MS.

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is another summoning jutsu Orochimaru doesn't need the full seals for either. He simply puts his hands on the ground and brings out the

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.

Claping his hands together and or clapping his hands on the ground. Both will occur by the time Kakashi is only activating MS so let me break down how this fight goes for you.

- Battle Start
- Orochimaru claps hands on the ground, summons TR.
- Kakashi's MS has activated.
- Orochimaru claps hands and uses ET.
- Edo Hokage slaughter Kakashi and Itachi.
- The End.

 

[Haizaki]

By now people should realize ET isn't really looked at because it involves using multiple other characters that would obviously mean the opposition stands no chance. Thought it was already common sense.

It should be specified whether or not ET is allowed in different fights. I don't consider it.

 

[Booker]

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and

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is Kakashi activating MS. Naruto can form his Bijuu Dama and Gai can swing his nunchucks out by the time Kakashi activates MS. Not use it. Just him activating the eye to get ready to use Kamui is enough time for them to do that. So, yes, Orochimaru can clap his hands before Kakashi uses Kamui.

Kamui on the coffins won't work because his line of sight will be cut off. I just established the fact that Orochimaru can clap his hands to use ET by the time Kakashi is only activating MS.

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is another summoning jutsu Orochimaru doesn't need the full seals for either. He simply puts his hands on the ground and brings out the

You must be registered for see links

.

Claping his hands together and or clapping his hands on the ground. Both will occur by the time Kakashi is only activating MS so let me break down how this fight goes for you.

- Battle Start
- Orochimaru claps hands on the ground, summons TR.
- Kakashi's MS has activated.
- Orochimaru claps hands and uses ET.
- Edo Hokage slaughter Kakashi and Itachi.
- The End.

Nope. Pay attention;

Spoiler

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From the time Sasuke had already fired his Susano'o arrows, Kakashi was able to go from 3-T to Mangenkyou and warp them. AFTER they had been fired. Orochimaru isn't doing jack with Edo Tensei or Rashomon before this happens and he gets sniped.

The scans you provided don't support your argument because BM Naruto and Might Gai are both significantly faster than Orochimaru. Unless you have some speed feats for Orochimaru putting him near Gai and BM Naruto's level - good luck.

Kamui Snipe, GG. Sorry, it's just the cold, hard truth.

 

[Nattana]

Nope. Pay attention;

Spoiler

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From the time Sasuke had already fired his Susano'o arrows, Kakashi was able to go from 3-T to Mangenkyou and warp them. AFTER they had been fired. Orochimaru isn't doing jack with Edo Tensei or Rashomon before this happens and he gets sniped.

The scans you provided don't support your argument because BM Naruto and Might Gai are both significantly faster than Orochimaru. Unless you have some speed feats for Orochimaru putting him near Gai and BM Naruto's level - good luck.

Kamui Snipe, GG. Sorry, it's just the cold, hard truth.

Orochimaru can stomp Kakashi with Visions of Death, just like he canonically did in manga.

Also, Orochimaru managed to bite his fingers and summon Triple Rashoumon to block TBB, after it had been already fired off.

And one more thing. Does Kakashi have any Kamui feat that suggests he could wrap something that isn't stationary or moving in a straight direction? Because I don't recall any Kamui snipe bullshit during a normal shinobi fight, where people move around quickly and change patterns, instead of simply waiting for Kakashi to use his jutsu.

 

[Megax Rocker7]

Unless Orochimaru uses Tsunade and Jiraiya for edo tensei Hashirama and Madara, they're most liklley getting stomped.

 

[Booker]

Orochimaru can stomp Kakashi with Visions of Death, just like he canonically did in manga.

Also, Orochimaru managed to bite his fingers and summon Triple Rashoumon to block TBB, after it had been already fired off.

And one more thing. Does Kakashi have any Kamui feat that suggests he could wrap something that isn't stationary or moving in a straight direction? Because I don't recall any Kamui snipe bullshit during a normal shinobi fight, where people move around quickly and change patterns, instead of simply waiting for Kakashi to use his jutsu.

Not even close. Orochimaru gets one-shot by War Arc Kakashi. Visions of Death isn't a jutsu, it is intimidation. Orochimaru is intimidating a guy who squared off against multiple Jinchurikis? Yeah, argue that. Please.

Good for Orochimaru. That doesn't even remotely suggest he can do it before he gets sniped by Kamui.

Kakashi can't one-shot everybody in the manga because (1) He doesn't always have the feats for it, and (2) there would be no story if Kakashi just Kamui sniped every threat. Orochimaru has zero speed feats suggesting he out-maneuvers Kamui, and if he attempts Edo or Rashomon (both only have feats activated while stationary), he gets sniped.

Kakashi also managed to Kamui Snipe a BM Naruto clone, which moves significantly faster than Orochimaru ever could.

Everybody knows you're an Orochimaru shill here, so please, dig yourself further into the hole.

 

[Nattana]

Not even close. Orochimaru gets one-shot by War Arc Kakashi. Visions of Death isn't a jutsu, it is intimidation. Orochimaru is intimidating a guy who squared off against multiple Jinchurikis? Yeah, argue that. Please.

Completed 300 A-rank and 42 S-rank missions and still got negged by Oro's Visions of Death, which in fact is a jutsu (I suggest you re-read the scene).

Good for Orochimaru. That doesn't even remotely suggest he can do it before he gets sniped by Kamui.

That's more than enough, considering that Kakashi starts with a headband over his eye and without MS activated. There's also option that the weakest link (probably Tsunade) could sacrifice herself to defend Orochimaru.

Everybody knows you're an Orochimaru shill here, so please, dig yourself further into the hole.

Says clown with Kakashi in his avatar and 'Kamui sniper GG' in his status.

 

[Booker]

Completed 300 A-rank and 42 S-rank missions and still got negged by Oro's Visions of Death, which in fact is a jutsu (I suggest you re-read the scene).



That's more than enough, considering that Kakashi starts with a headband over his eye and without MS activated. There's also option that the weakest link (probably Tsunade) could sacrifice herself to defend Orochimaru.



Says clown with Kakashi in his avatar and 'Kamui sniper GG' in his status.

No, it is not a jutsu. It is simple intimidation. Please, link the evidence where it states that it is a genjutsu. I'll wait. His status in Part 1 doesn't matter, because we're not discussing Part 1 Kakashi. Stay on topic.

According to what? War Arc Kakashi almost never had his Sharingan covered. He starts with the headband removed, so the situation does not change for Orochimaru here. Lol, Tsunade isn't blitzing in front of Orochimaru as a sacrifice against Kamui. She doesn't have the speed for that. Stop stating nonsense that you want to be true. Fight starts, Kakashi activates MS and snipes his ass.

I say "Kamui Snipe GG' ironically. There are plenty of people that War Arc Kakashi loses to, and I always admit when that is the case. You're the one stretching your case thin for Orochimaru, using Part 1 events to suggest that Orochimaru paralyzes War Arc Kakashi out of intimidation (lol).

 

[blazekev90]

You'll are thinking way too much into this ET preparation bull. Lol. All it takes is a moment to distract Kakashi and/or Itachi to successfully pull off ET.

In other words, they'd need to temporarily shield Orochimaru from Kakashi/Itachi's sight at the start of the fight. It's not like we haven't witness shinobi perform techniques the moment their opponent were to blink their eyes, hell even Kakashi utilized a Katon Itachi performed as an opportunity to counterattack with a sneak attack of his own(hiding like a mole and shadow clone).

Similarly, all that's needed it a large Katon used by Jman at the start of the fight, that'll temporarily prevent direct eye contact to the Sannin. Also, seeing that this is in character, Itachi would most likely try to much this with a Katon on his own, forcing Kakashi to either maneuver around this and try to close the distance, or use Kamui. Either way, the Sannin have the numbers advantage, so Tsuande could engage with Kakashi during this time.

All this providing more than enough time for Orochimaru to clap his hands without being "snipped".

 

[Booker]

You'll are thinking way too much into this ET preparation bull. Lol. All it takes is a moment to distract Kakashi and/or Itachi to successfully pull off ET.

In other words, they'd need to temporarily shield Orochimaru from Kakashi/Itachi's sight at the start of the fight. It's not like we haven't witness shinobi perform techniques the moment their opponent were to blink their eyes, hell even Kakashi utilized a Katon Itachi performed as an opportunity to counterattack with a sneak attack of his own(hiding like a mole and shadow clone).

Similarly, all that's needed it a large Katon used by Jman at the start of the fight, that'll temporarily prevent direct eye contact to the Sannin. Also, seeing that this is in character, Itachi would most likely try to much this with a Katon on his own, forcing Kakashi to either maneuver around this and try to close the distance, or use Kamui. Either way, the Sannin have the numbers advantage, so Tsuande could engage with Kakashi during this time.

All this providing more than enough time for Orochimaru to clap his hands without being "snipped".

Literally none of that happens before Kakashi gets Kamui off. Provide the speed feats for Jiraiya and Itachi's Katon that suggest they can outspeed Kamui.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Lmao okay. Warping BM Naruto's clone.

I'm pretty sure he had to get close and prep for that:

Spoiler

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y'know why he's stressing timing not speed.


With the ending distance being what looks like under 50m:

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Okay you went full retard. Summoning is instant but the prep for it is not. Oro has to make the hand seals and chakra gathering etc... every single basic requirement for almost every jutsu. Kamui's prep time <<<<< any other jutsu we've seen except from ST jutsus. So, if you think Orochimaru actually pulls of the summoning before getting warped by Kakashi, then you don't deserve being replied to anymore.

How am i going full retard? Kamui goes through literally the same process.
Gather chakra to eye then cast jutsu=kamui
gather chakra to hands then cast jutsu=summoning of any kind.

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So unless youre making the proclamation that kakashi has the fastest chakra gathering speed in the manga... what r u saying.

Damn Narutox28, your argument is lame. Bengay you should just tell him:

Edo tensei is a jutsu that needs prep JUST ONE TIME, and after you did it that time, IT BECOMES PERMANENT in your arsenal. If Orochimaru had to do the prep everytime he uses the jutsu then you'd have a point. I'm lazy to quote you so i hope you read it.

i already explained that to him in detail. By his logic naruto would need to sign the toad scroll every time he wanted to do battle using toads.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

This is kakashi's fastest kamui:

Spoiler

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He activated the tech after sasuke shot the arrows.


But speed feats like that have been duplicated:

Danzo does it:

Spoiler

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growing a full size tree before it even lands

Madara(or black zetsu(or obito doesn't really matter) does it to an even faster ems sasuke

Spoiler

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so if its possible for multiple people to activate and use their techniques while sasuke arrows are mid flight, why is it out of the question for one of the sannin to do the same?

 

[blazekev90]

Literally none of that happens before Kakashi gets Kamui off. Provide the speed feats for Jiraiya and Itachi's Katon that suggest they can outspeed Kamui.

Sigh.

1) Kakashi in character doesn't start off with Kamui unless he feels there's no other option. Jman using Katon wouldn't require a Kamui counter.

2) war arc Kakashi is a condition, not his starting base. This meaning he'd still have to reveal eye from underneath his headband. Even War Arc Kakashi, at the begging for of the war, had on his headband on.

Therefore, I have no reason to entertain your Kamui snipped argument.