陰陽伝説: Naruto and Sasuke both win

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Assuming the ones readying this are also fans of the Naruto manga, I am sure that they would have certain opinions of the two most important characters, Naruto and Sasuke. While both have adopted their own fans for their own reasons, I believe that a big argument is Naruto/Sasuke is a better character than Sasuke/Naruto. I believe that no one is wrong, because in reality we were made to read two different stories all under the title "NARUTO", and that BOTH Naruto and Sasuke are the main character of their own part of the story. Naruto was the main character of the "shonen" aspect, while Sasuke was the main character of the "ninja" aspect.

Though the two stories often overlapped, at their core they were very different.

Let us first take into consideration how they are seen by the other characters in the story, in addition to how we look at them. Naruto was a loudmouth prankster that, while not skilled in the typical way considering the setting, managed to pull off victories simply because of his shonen characteristics (power of friendship, hard work, and "purity"). On the other hand, Sasuke excelled in the stereotypical ninja way (technique, lineage, "darkness"), something which made him the ideal character to follow in a ninja tale. Naruto was the no-name "orphan" with the goal of being "the best" (Hokage, subjectively highest position in the ninja world.) Sasuke was the survivor of a famous clan, very publicly orphan"ed" by his evil brother, and his sole ambition was to seek vengeance (Rikimaru, Hayabuse Ryu, Oboro Hotsuma, etc. etc.)

Next let us consider how their stories progressed. Naruto path of "getting to the zenith" can be broken up as 1) first assimilating those he directly interacts with (team), 2) assimilating those in his age (chunin exam), assimilating the person in charge (Tsunade), 3) assimilating the foreign village (saving Gaara), 4) assimilating own village (defeat of Pain), 5) assimilating world's love and trust (entirety of 4th shinobi world war), and 6) bonus battle against rival.

Sasuke's story of vengeance can be seen as 1) having and comparing skills needed for the revenge (from the time he is shown until the end of chunin exam), 2) seeing that he is lacking in preparation and seeking to rectify that (based off interactions with Orochimaru, Gaara, Itachi, and yes even Naruto), 3) having the power for and enacting vengeance (he emerged alive from his fights with Orochimaru, Deidara, and Itachi), and 4) finding new places to throw more vengeance (against Danzo for the sake of his brother, against Konoha for the memory of his clan, against the ninja villages for the state of the current ninja world, against the entire world for the sake of his ambition, and finally against Naruto for the sake of destiny and pride.)

There is more to say, but let us first discuss the above. What do you think?

 

[Wizard_Impressive]

this was brilliant so narutoverse mlk type speech. both characters are awesome so please end the segregation i mean look at my sig and tell me both characters arent dope as fuk :flakez:

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

this was brilliant so narutoverse mlk type speech. both characters are awesome so please end the segregation i mean look at my sig and tell me both characters arent dope as fuk :flakez:

Thank you for the both the reply and the comparison. I believe that both are good characters for the two stories they were in.

 

[VVolfVVarrior]

Hell I watched whole Naruto series only for these Kyuubi moments. Does not really care about main heroes.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Hell I watched whole Naruto series only for these Kyuubi moments. Does not really care about main heroes.

I don't think I follow what you mean by "kyuubi moments." The moments when Naruto utilized kyuubi chakra, the moments when the kyuubi chakra utilized Naruto, or the scenes of Kurama actually being shown on screen communicating?

 

[VVolfVVarrior]

I don't think I follow what you mean by "kyuubi moments." The moments when Naruto utilized kyuubi chakra, the moments when the kyuubi chakra utilized Naruto, or the scenes of Kurama actually being shown on screen communicating?

All of them were fun. I am big fan of Kitsunes. XD

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

All of them were fun. I am big fan of Kitsunes. XD

I see. Did you not enjoy the ninja aspect of the manga? And on topic, what did you think of Naruto and/or Sasuke?

 

[VVolfVVarrior]

I see. Did you not enjoy the ninja aspect of the manga? And on topic, what did you think of Naruto and/or Sasuke?

It could be little darker and realistic but otherwise it was good. Naruto could have more character development and Sasuke was Ok.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

It could be little darker and realistic but otherwise it was good. Naruto could have more character development and Sasuke was Ok.

I agree with you on both accords. However, I believe that there is a reason why it HAD to be this way.

NARUTO is the combination of a b grade "shonen" story (the tale of the gutsy ninja Naruto) and a b+ grade ninja game (Hotsuma mixed with Stryder). The overlaps of these two genres added and took away from each's individual potential. Because time was more or less split between telling these two stories, each story's length was cut, but this effected the Naruto side more. I believe that Naruto got to the PEAK of his story's goal way too quickly, which was universal recognition. By saving the leaf village from Pain he became a sure win for the position of Hokage, regardless of if the 4th shinobi world war happened or not. His story was more or less done there, so maybe fleshing out his character more before this point would have made for a more interesting main character. More missions to show off his improvement as an actual ninja (a person that completes missions) instead of only dealing with world threatening events. On the other hand Sasuke's story could have been darker, and he could have spent more time to actually fight the other villages. The two stories met in the middle I believe.

What do you think?

 

[Genocide]

I agree with you on both accords. However, I believe that there is a reason why it HAD to be this way.

NARUTO is the combination of a b grade "shonen" story (the tale of the gutsy ninja Naruto) and a b+ grade ninja game (Hotsuma mixed with Stryder). The overlaps of these two genres added and took away from each's individual potential. Because time was more or less split between telling these two stories, each story's length was cut, but this effected the Naruto side more. I believe that Naruto got to the PEAK of his story's goal way too quickly, which was universal recognition. By saving the leaf village from Pain he became a sure win for the position of Hokage, regardless of if the 4th shinobi world war happened or not. His story was more or less done there, so maybe fleshing out his character more before this point would have made for a more interesting main character. More missions to show off his improvement as an actual ninja (a person that completes missions) instead of only dealing with world threatening events. On the other hand Sasuke's story could have been darker, and he could have spent more time to actually fight the other villages. The two stories met in the middle I believe.

What do you think?

i think it would of been good if some extremely psychological event happened to naruto after that (maybe sakura die right in front him while he couldnt do anything or something along those lines) and would change narutos character drastically.

 

[VVolfVVarrior]

I agree with you on both accords. However, I believe that there is a reason why it HAD to be this way.

NARUTO is the combination of a b grade "shonen" story (the tale of the gutsy ninja Naruto) and a b+ grade ninja game (Hotsuma mixed with Stryder). The overlaps of these two genres added and took away from each's individual potential. Because time was more or less split between telling these two stories, each story's length was cut, but this effected the Naruto side more. I believe that Naruto got to the PEAK of his story's goal way too quickly, which was universal recognition. By saving the leaf village from Pain he became a sure win for the position of Hokage, regardless of if the 4th shinobi world war happened or not. His story was more or less done there, so maybe fleshing out his character more before this point would have made for a more interesting main character. More missions to show off his improvement as an actual ninja (a person that completes missions) instead of only dealing with world threatening events. On the other hand Sasuke's story could have been darker, and he could have spent more time to actually fight the other villages. The two stories met in the middle I believe.

What do you think?

Yes, exactly. Later it was all so fast moving and it stopped being about ninjas and more about superheroes and villains

 

[lndra]

Great job Denizen.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

i think it would of been good if some extremely psychological event happened to naruto after that (maybe sakura die right in front him while he couldnt do anything or something along those lines) and would change narutos character drastically.

I agree that an extremely psychological event was necessary in the story, but I also believe that one happened; the death of Neji. However, I believe that he was not given time to grow from the death of Neji (he was over it after one slap in one chapter). If Neji died perhaps during a mutual mission where Jounin Neji gave an order that Naruto did not follow because he was somewhat drunk off of his own power (the attitude that Itachi warned about) and Neji died saving him from something that could have been avoided.

On the other hand, Sasuke's side of the story was full enough of extreme psychological traumas, so it would have become redundant.

What do you think?

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Great job Denizen.

Thank you for the response.

On this note I would like to build upon the discussion. I titled the thread as Naruto and Sasuke both win as a reference to the end of their stories. As I stated earlier, NARUTO the manga series was actually two stories in one that overlapped through the interactions of the main characters of each individual story. Naruto's story was a shonen story, and as such the story formula followed that he had to "win" in the end. And win Naruto did, as he both survived, and his goal survived. Naruto's goal was to be hokage, and he explicitly gave himself the stipulation that "if I can't save my one friend Sasuke, I can't become hokage." By Sasuke not killing himself, Naruto's goal as a shonen hero was more or less complete.

On the other hand, Sasuke's story was NOT a shonen manga story, but rather following the plot of a ninja genre plot. Consider all depictions of ninja stories that we have here in Japan across all mediums. From the movies (for example, the shinobi no mono films), to the games ( tenchu, shinobi, ryuuken den, etc.), to the novels (kouga ninpouchou for example), ninja stories are not tales of inspiration or adventure, but rather of tragedy. Shinobi tales depict not only the supernatural darkness, but the darkness of the human situation. Very often the tragedy aspect of shinobi is that their tales often take place and end in the darkness, and often the main characters die (with the world carrying on nonchalantly despite the character's struggle, hence the tragedy.) This background, mixed with Sasuke's tale, meant that EVEN IF SASUKE DIED in the end, him being the main character in a ninja story meant that this was acceptable. However Sasuke did NOT die. Because he broke from the mold of the ninja genre by surviving, he won as a character.

I will cut off at this point. What do you think?

 

[Genocide]

I agree that an extremely psychological event was necessary in the story, but I also believe that one happened; the death of Neji. However, I believe that he was not given time to grow from the death of Neji (he was over it after one slap in one chapter). If Neji died perhaps during a mutual mission where Jounin Neji gave an order that Naruto did not follow because he was somewhat drunk off of his own power (the attitude that Itachi warned about) and Neji died saving him from something that could have been avoided.

On the other hand, Sasuke's side of the story was full enough of extreme psychological traumas, so it would have become redundant.

What do you think?

that would have been good, just something to spice things up

 

[Honord Sage]

Sakura and Sasuke started out as the two number one rockies in the Manga and both lost to the two so called dead last in the Village in the game of life Naruto and Hinata and you can't change that fact its canon baby.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Sakura and Sasuke started out as the two number one rockies in the Manga and both lost to the two so called dead last in the Village in the game of life Naruto and Hinata and you can't change that fact its canon baby.

I would just like to correct that it was not Sasuke and Sakura, but rather Sasuke and Ino that were the top rookies in their graduating class. Also I don't think Sakura actually lost anything. Every one of her sentences in her self introduction had to do with Sasuke, so her dreams (limited as they might have been) came true. Being Tsunade's inheritor was simply the marshmallow in the hot cocoa. Sasuke, like I said above, completed his story once all the revenge he wanted was achieved, and in fact everything after the last fight of the valley of the end is just a daily bonus time for him. Time he spends doing, quite literally, what he wants (he does want konoha to prosper, but needs to travel.) Naruto's story only truly finished when he achieved his goal of hokage. Hinata showed us that her dream also came through. The four of them are happy.

What do you think?

 

[Megax Rocker7]

Underrated thread.

I'm always glad to see unbiased members who actually enjoy the story.

Not saying that I'm not biased though.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Underrated thread.

I'm always glad to see unbiased members who actually enjoy the story.

Not saying that I'm not biased though.

Thank you for the response. The story was enjoyable, and reading it as two stories in one made it even more interesting to read.
What cemented the idea that it was two stories was the fact that, after the split at the valley of the end, the plot was essentially split into two. Also, unless they crossed paths, each character's story was told without the other really being there. Sasuke was not there for the Gaara rescue, Asuma revenge, sage training/Pain fight, entering the fourth war. Naruto was not there for the Hebi formation, battle with Itachi, working as an Akatsuki agent, storming the kage kaidan, and entering the fourth war.

The final battle between Naruto and Sasuke can be interpreted as a battle between two genres, Naruto representing shonen and Sasuke representing ninja. Shonen won, but ninja did not lose, which is a great ending to both.

What do you think?

 

[Jiren]

Yeah ive been saying that for a long time